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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #1156
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Kishi is at fault here definitely. But another approach is simply to acknowledge how much chakra he actually has.
    And again, Naruto only has 4x as much chakra as Kakashi during the time he created a 1000 clones vs. Mizuki. It makes no sense that he was even capable of standing. And this also happened while his seal was at the strongest it had ever been, meaning the Kyuubi didn't have a lot of influence on his chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Why not? If you drive by appropriate rules, it means you mastered the mechanics of the rules. Yeah, he found another way to master it. Example. People here at college say that it's easier to learn if you talk to yourself in loud voice in the evening. I didn't find that useful and I tried it in the morning with whispering to myself. I learned it the same way as a person who used the first way. Even better.
    No, not driving by the rules, but pushing the vehicle to it's limits. But this is a bad example.

    I'll give you a much simpiler and better example.

    There is riding a bike, and riding a bike with training wheels.

    There is forming a Rasengan and there is forming a Rasengan with the use of a clone.

    The fact that Naruto has to use another jutsu to complete the technique means he has not mastered that technique. It doesn't get much simpler than that. His lack of proficiency means he has not mastered it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Does Naruto hurt himself when he performs Rasengan? No. He didn't have the mobility, agility and the experience with it as Minato did, but he learned it to use in battles effectively. If I manage to complete a certain task differently than it's expected, but with the same results, how does it mean I didn't master it?
    I don't think you understand that mastery and proficiency go hand in hand. If you do it differently than expected, and either take more time, take more energy, or hurt yourself then no you haven't mastered anything. However small the margin is, by creating a clone to create a Rasengan Naruto takes more time and energy to create a Rasengan than Minato or Kakashi or Jiraiya does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    He didn't master it in Minato's way of executing it. He found his own way. Agree to disagree.
    He found is own way and didn't master anything. You are using the word master and mastery out of context.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    And again, Naruto only has 4x as much chakra as Kakashi during the time he created a 1000 clones vs. Mizuki. It makes no sense that he was even capable of standing. And this also happened while his seal was at the strongest it had ever been, meaning the Kyuubi didn't have a lot of influence on his chakra.


    No, not driving by the rules, but pushing the vehicle to it's limits. But this is a bad example.

    I'll give you a much simpiler and better example.

    There is riding a bike, and riding a bike with training wheels.

    There is forming a Rasengan and there is forming a Rasengan with the use of a clone.

    The fact that Naruto has to use another jutsu to complete the technique means he has not mastered that technique. It doesn't get much simpler than that. His lack of proficiency means he has not mastered it.


    I don't think you understand that mastery and proficiency go hand in hand. If you do it differently than expected, and either take more time, take more energy, or hurt yourself then no you haven't mastered anything. However small the margin is, by creating a clone to create a Rasengan Naruto takes more time and energy to create a Rasengan than Minato or Kakashi or Jiraiya does.



    He found is own way and didn't master anything. You are using the word master and mastery out of context.
    Yeah, I get it. But Kishimoto made him able to do it. A lot of Kishimoto's decisions don't make sense, but I take it just like I take anything else from the manga.

    I understand your examples, but we have different views on what mastery is. If the cause and effect are the same in both ways of executing it, the matter is mastered as it produces the same unleashing concept of its purpose.

    I understand it but we disagree on his KB being a disadvantage. Also, I judge mastery by the final effect whereas you look at details such as forming mechanics etc. Naruto can be proficient at using Rasengan in his own way, just as Minato is proficient at using it the original way. I agree that Minato's is more practical, but Naruto's KB is so perfect that it rarely poses a disadvantage in battles, as we've seen.

  3. #1158
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I understand your examples, but we have different views on what mastery is. If the cause and effect are the same in both ways of executing it, the matter is mastered as it produces the same unleashing concept of its purpose.

    I understand it but we disagree on his KB being a disadvantage. Also, I judge mastery by the final effect whereas you look at details such as forming mechanics etc. Naruto can be proficient at using Rasengan in his own way, just as Minato is proficient at using it the original way. I agree that Minato's is more practical, but Naruto's KB is so perfect that it rarely poses a disadvantage in battles, as we've seen.
    I don't think it's a matter of opinion but a matter of what the word "mastery" means. Mastery is a synonym for proficiency, which also goes along with practicality. I just don't see how you can master something when you need significant help performing it's use, and that help is actually a hindrance (although in Naruto's case a near none existent one).

    There are numerous ways to impose on Naruto's inability to use Rasengan without a clone but Kishi has never allowed that to happen, just like he never allowed Naruto to fight a genjutsu user other than Itachi who posed a threat to him. Naruto has never had to fight anyone where he is either A) at a disadvantage due to his faults, or B) without a crutch or significant back-up. But this is always the case in Shounen, otherwise we'd have a lot of dead characters lol.

    (This is off our original topic but is something that has always bothered me) IMO, Naruto has never had to fight someone in a situation like when Jiraiya fought Pain or when Kakashi fought Deva and Asura. More recently he's become God-like and so he really can't be beat since it's the end of the manga, but there have been plenty of times in the past where his obvious faults have just been looked over. To me that's something that has always bothered me because it's essentially meant he can't lose, which takes a lot of fun out for me because we always figure he's going to win, so there's no surprise. The only time he's ever truly "lost" a fight outright is when he fought Sasuke at the VOTE.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I don't think it's a matter of opinion but a matter of what the word "mastery" means. Mastery is a synonym for proficiency, which also goes along with practicality. I just don't see how you can master something when you need significant help performing it's use, and that help is actually a hindrance (although in Naruto's case a near none existent one).

    There are numerous ways to impose on Naruto's inability to use Rasengan without a clone but Kishi has never allowed that to happen, just like he never allowed Naruto to fight a genjutsu user other than Itachi who posed a threat to him. Naruto has never had to fight anyone where he is either A) at a disadvantage due to his faults, or B) without a crutch or significant back-up. But this is always the case in Shounen, otherwise we'd have a lot of dead characters lol.

    (This is off our original topic but is something that has always bothered me) IMO, Naruto has never had to fight someone in a situation like when Jiraiya fought Pain or when Kakashi fought Deva and Asura. More recently he's become God-like and so he really can't be beat since it's the end of the manga, but there have been plenty of times in the past where his obvious faults have just been looked over. To me that's something that has always bothered me because it's essentially meant he can't lose, which takes a lot of fun out for me because we always figure he's going to win, so there's no surprise. The only time he's ever truly "lost" a fight outright is when he fought Sasuke at the VOTE.
    I don't mean to turn this into grammar flamewar, but mastery and proficiency aren't the same thing. Mastery means having command or possession of a certain skill while proficiency is closely related to competence. That's why I'm saying Naruto mastered Rasengan because he has it at his disposal for usage. Proficiency or competence is something that Naruto doesn't have when we talk about Minato's way of executing Rasengan, but he does possess the knowledge and possession of the Rasengan that he can use.

    One who thinks like you might agree with you, but I don't. Why would Kishi hide his faults if he wants to show Naruto's competence in his own way, through his own character? That's the whole point of him as a character. He's not a Genius, but through hard work, he does Genius feats. But that gives us a digression on how a certain reader reads the story. So it all comes down to point of view in the end, like it always does.

    I agree, I always hated how Kurama saved his ass against Pain, or how he was helpless against Nagato again when he was ETed. He had help. There are plenty of times he could lose, but like you said, Shounen doesn't allow that. Kishimoto always tries not to hide his clumsiness, even in serious battles, which is why I understand people take him as an idiot. This is why I said that Kishimoto doesn't hide his faults, because despite his powers, the battles are decided through Naruto's words rather than his power. But then again, I just take it how the story is told because if I get into deeper thinking about what could've happened, it would be an endless tornado of possible outcomes which doesn't justify or downplay the true Naruto that Kishimoto created. I guess we'll see his true powers once again against Sasuke, which was and will be the best battle ever in this manga.

  5. #1160
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I don't mean to turn this into grammar flamewar, but mastery and proficiency aren't the same thing. Mastery means having command or possession of a certain skill while proficiency is closely related to competence. That's why I'm saying Naruto mastered Rasengan because he has it at his disposal for usage. Proficiency or competence is something that Naruto doesn't have when we talk about Minato's way of executing Rasengan, but he does possess the knowledge and possession of the Rasengan that he can use.
    Mastery implies that you have little to no room for improvement in a certain subject, area, or use of something. Not to mention it also means you have a great understanding of that. There is no higher level of ability in something than mastery. The fact that Naruto can improve upon his usage of Rasengan means he has not mastered it, because there is still room for improvement as far as the basic Rasengan goes. The fact that he has room for improvement with the basic rasegan to me proves he has not mastered it.

    IMO, with your argument you could say Naruto mastered Kage Bushin a long time ago. yet he didn't even know he could receive information from his clones until Kakashi told him.

    Now, that is entirely different than him altering the technique which he has done numerous times. Because he is no longer creating a simple Rasengan, but an entirely new jutsu based on the Rasengan. Just like Sasuke's chidori isn't Rakiri, but Sasuke can create variations of chidori. In that sense, Naruto nor Sasuke haven't "mastered" their specific jutsu, but have tailored it to their fighting style.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    One who thinks like you might agree with you, but I don't. Why would Kishi hide his faults if he wants to show Naruto's competence in his own way, through his own character? That's the whole point of him as a character. He's not a Genius, but through hard work, he does Genius feats. But that gives us a digression on how a certain reader reads the story. So it all comes down to point of view in the end, like it always does.
    Kishi shows Naruto's faults but he never makes him pay for them, because again, this isn't that type of genre anymore now that he's essentially given in to every shounen stereotype. In other works of fiction, when a character has faults they either correct the, overcome them, or are punished by them. It wasn't until recently that Naruto's inability to dispel genjutsu was overcome. And despite genjutsu being a common enough weapons, especially among his enemies, Naruto rarely if ever faced it.

    Also to me, many of Naruto's chances of overcoming things were at the expense of another character. Perfect examples are Neji, Kakazu and Pain. All three of them either had completely uncharacteristic moments of stupidity, or had to be weakened to the point of fodder for Naruto to defeat them. Instead of Naruto improving, we get other characters becoming weak for the sake of the plot. That makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    I agree, I always hated how Kurama saved his ass against Pain, or how he was helpless against Nagato again when he was ETed. He had help. There are plenty of times he could lose, but like you said, Shounen doesn't allow that. Kishimoto always tries not to hide his clumsiness, even in serious battles, which is why I understand people take him as an idiot. But then again, I just take it how the story is told because if I get into deeper thinking about what could've happened, it would be an endless tornado of possible outcomes which doesn't justify or downplay the true Naruto that Kishimoto created. I guess we'll see his true powers once again against Sasuke, which was and will be the best battle ever in this manga.
    My problem is I don't like to fall into the "shounen doesn't allow that" logic, because this manga wasn't always like that. It turned out the way, and to me Kishi lost his balls for it. This manga has delved into deep issues before, has shown there are serious consequences for actions, etc etc in the past, and then, like vs. Pain, there was no consequences. Naruto was bailed out multiple times, plot no jutsu takes over, and the village is destroyed but no one dies?!?

    Even more upsetting was Nagato's 180, and my biggest pet peeve, the whole "Cycle of Hatred". Originally I thought Kishi was going to delve into the whole "human condition" idea with Nagato, but instead took the easy way out. Instead of explaining that everyone has both good and evil in them, and thus the world can never truly be at peace, Kishi came up with the stupid idea that Naruto can be the Messiah of the whole planet. That also threw out the whole "hard work over genius" concept given the fact that Naruto's father was a Hokage, his mother was essentially royalty, and he was destined to do all this shit since the beginning. Makes his whole fight with Neji worthless in my mind.
    Last edited by Delbi; July 03, 2013 at 03:12 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    So what? The genius part of the feat was the speed at which Naruto mastered it. Tsunade suggested it was an impossible task, as well as Kakashi saying Naruto was too young to use that technique. No, that's wrong. If the efficiency and the effect is the same, the technique is mastered. You simply don't like the concept of mastering it. He found his own way of executing it which doesn't belittle the technique's power or effect, like I said before. Because it isn't easy. That much is obvious from the manga, it's not easy. If it was easy, everyone would know it like they all know Bunshin no jutsu. Of course they were given the instructions to learn it. How else are they going to learn it? We're talking about the difficulty to master a technique from learning.
    And that's the issue I'm arguing. We don't have a clue how long it would normally take to learn the Rasengan, so there's no way to say Naruto leanrt it faster then normal or such. She said it was an impossible task for him, same with Kakashi's comment. Them thinking Naruto shouldn't be capable of it doesn't mean they would believe nobody would be capable of it. Naruto is hardly a normal ninjas when it comes to being taught... How is it wrong? Naruto didn't change the efficiency or effect between his fight with Tsunade and his later use against Kabuto. So if it wasn't considered mastered when he fought Tsunade, then he clearly didn't master it.

    Wrong. The reason more people don't know it is because it's only been taught to a select few, just like Shikamaru's shadow techniques and Chouji's weight techniques. That's the whole deal with Hidan techniques, that anyone could learn them but can't because they're kept secret within a clan. That's basically how the Rasengan has been treated, kept solely between those connected to Minato and Naruto. There's nothing to suggest that if someone was taught it, they would find it hard to learn. The very fact Konohamaru was capable of learning it before he even graduated and became a genin would disprove the idea that it's hard to learn. Neither Naruto nor Konohamaru are the most "skilled" ninjas, so why would more skilled ninjas have a harder time learning it then them? It's not like with the FRS and has specific requirements that would preclude the majority of people from being able to learn it.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    To piggyback on that, the Rasengan is basically controlling an external flow of charka from one's body. Every Hyuuga worth a shit should be able to learn it no problem if taught the proper mechanics. Same goes for nearly any Jounin level ninja IMO.

    Which makes me wonder why in the hell a ball of chakra was the pinnacle of shape manipulation?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Rasengan was designed to be used with one hand, not two, or three in the case of a clone.
    Konohamaru is the only person who uses rasengan with two hands - one his and one a clone's. Others use it with one hand, while Naruto and Konohamaru are the only ones who make/create rasengan with a clone - three hands. Probably minor, but I just wanted to point that out. \o
    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    To piggyback on that, the Rasengan is basically controlling an external flow of charka from one's body. Every Hyuuga worth a shit should be able to learn it no problem if taught the proper mechanics. Same goes for nearly any Jounin level ninja IMO.

    Which makes me wonder why in the hell a ball of chakra was the pinnacle of shape manipulation?
    Likely because not only do you have to move a chakra at high speed in certain directions with tons of power, but you also have to contain it pretty well. Naruto had the most problem with the third stage - containing it into a ball of power since teh chakra inside was too violent, I think. Konohamaru's tiny rasengan needs a clone to help hold it, so I don't think it's as simple as that. Chidori is basically chakra on the hand activated or whatever Gai said while rasengan is bringing the chakra outside and shaping it into a ball while keeping it strong and at high speed - keeping it controlled.

    I think I'm also one of hte few who doesn't take Bee's words as facts and continue to believe that Minato created rasengan from scratch. Even though it seems Kishi may have changed his mind.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    naruto vs nagato was very unfair fight... without madara rinnegan nagato would be fodder... naruto show clumsy only in two serious fight... sasuke and naruto more genius than minato and itachi by power, not by intelligence yet... all genius have help in battle... also naruto choise his destiny, not destiny choise naruto.
    Last edited by flow like; July 05, 2013 at 12:15 AM.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by flow like View Post
    naruto vs nagato was very unfair fight... without madara rinnegan nagato would be fodder...
    The Nagato we know WAS because of those eyes, so that isn't unfair by any means

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by flow like View Post
    sasuke and naruto more genius than minato and itachi by power, not by intelligence yet...
    How the fuck can you be a "genius by power"? That makes no sense at all. Thats like saying Arnold Schwarzenegger is a genius in Arm Wrestling because he can beat Albert Einstein
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Using Rasengan efficiently doesn't necessarily depend on using it with one hand or two, it all depends how quickly and effectively you can use it to hit some one, if Naruto was fighting against Obito in place of Minato he couldn't have hit tobi with a rasengan. On the other hand Minato showed how to use it efficiently and effectively by hitting or infact smashing tobi with it in a matter of split second.

    ---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 AM ----------

    And on topic of being able to learn the Rasengan, I second the thought that every Hyyuga should be able to learn it or at least Neji should be able to learn it IF TAUGHT.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark blood View Post
    Using Rasengan efficiently doesn't necessarily depend on using it with one hand or two, it all depends how quickly and effectively you can use it to hit some one, if Naruto was fighting against Obito in place of Minato he couldn't have hit tobi with a rasengan. On the other hand Minato showed how to use it efficiently and effectively by hitting or infact smashing tobi with it in a matter of split second.
    There is a difference between using a technique to attack someone efficiently, and actually creating the technique efficiently. Having to create a clone to create Rasengan takes more time and chakra than it would if Naruto could create it with one hand. Thus he has room for improvement, and is not creating the technique as efficiently as possible.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Naruto actually isn't that efficient (base mode) in forming rasengan.
    But we did see what he can do in his bijuu mode where he can create multiple of it without clones.

    That's more for it.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    That's all thanks to the Kyuubi's chakra, not because of Naruto himself. Naruto admitted he had difficulty concentrating, so making rasengan even in Kyuubi Mode without clones shouldn't be possible unless Kyuubi helps. But there you have it, a weakness removed.

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