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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #1321
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    In a way, he was talking about the character and what we know about them. I simply mentioned some of the things about Hiruzen that he didn't mention. Yes, I said excuse them. I didn't say people should believe hype, but if someone does, they can't be blamed. It still not a discussion about who's stronger than who.
    But the things he was mentioning, like the founding of the academy and Minato being known for Hiraishin, are actual things they did. It wasn't even things they were "famous" for, as he left off Minato's genius and Tobirama's creation of Edo Tensei. But they can be blame, because there's nothing to support the hype, which is the core issue that's only used to claim he's the strongest.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Old and that automatically makes them identical? Then you shouldn't have any problem with the MS\Byakugan example, otherwise, it's hypocrisy. We have no idea how long Hiruzen can last, he was facing immortals, so extending the battle is the stupidest course of action. Then read the fight again, if it wasn't for Sakura's power, Chiyo wouldn't have been able to do jackshit. Stop wasting my time with this meaningless argument, they needed each other to win against Sasori. One was the brains and the other was the muscles. Stamina? He became semi-immortal and stamina has nothing to do with it.
    Did you miss the "old knowledgeable Kages who were affected by age". That's four things in common, more if one adds in the fact that they both use the same two basic elements. The only thing the Byakugan and MS have in common is that both are doujutsus that can see chakra. The power of said sight, the fact that one is common while the other is considered rare, one being awakened at birth while the other requires specific conditions to awaken, one eventually leading to blindness at the cost of controlling a Bijuu, one granting a massive power-up upon gaining it along with a unique technique. They simply can't be compared when you talk about why one is easier to use then the other. There's a specific reason why MS is more tiring. Meanwhile, there isn't any reason Sarutobi and Onoki can't be compared stamina-wise.

    Seeing as the whole issue is Sarutobi lasting and whether he could have ended it without killing himself, that's not an excuse. The very fact that stopping an Edo summon is not some impossible task makes him coming to the conclusion that his only choice was to sacrifice himself just makes him look terrible. Chiyo was capable of doing plenty. It was directly because of her that Sakura survived several of Sasori's attacks, and it was her trick that stopped the complete assault of his puppet army. It was also because of her (puppets) that Sasori decided to allow the blow to land. Also, I acknowledged that they did it together, but Sakura's "power" wasn't what she offered to the partnership. He's "semi-immortal" because of his unique ninjutsu. You do not think that if he didn't have enough stamina to keep it going, he would likely die, since it was the thing keeping him going?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Because he sealed them quick. Taking control of Itachi again was a one second though, when he was enraged, he was going for the kill. Any sealing technique like what? Kankuro stopped them, not sealed them. Again, I said excuse them. Whether people believe it or not isn't my business. Somehow, you turned this into a "who's stronger than who" discussion which again, could've been avoided had you read my other comment.
    Um, no he didn't. Reread the battle. They literally stood around most of it, allowing him to think up a plan. And outside the initial attack at the beginning, they didn't use any offensive ninjutsus, and the one time they did attack after that was with some taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to take out a clone. How about the Five Elements Seal (to cancel their chakra usage) or Contract Seal (to free them from Orochimaru's command), or even his own Four Violet Flames Formation via clones (to keep them from attacking him). These are only options we've seen in Konoha, that's not even getting into whatever unknown sealing techniques Konoha gained from the Uzumaki clan. Stopping and sealing them is the same thing. That was literally what the Alliance was doing. I did read your comment, and then responded to it that hype was not enough. It's foolish to allow people to just believe anything, especially when the actual evidence disproves it. There is no point in turning a blind eye to a false belief when there is a multitude of evidence to show the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Hmmm... Nothing at all from the link I gave above exists in these pages. So that whole section was fake, and not just the Sarutobi part?
    No, most of it was true, except for the whole Tobi still being considered Madara thing.

  2. #1322
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But the things he was mentioning, like the founding of the academy and Minato being known for Hiraishin, are actual things they did. It wasn't even things they were "famous" for, as he left off Minato's genius and Tobirama's creation of Edo Tensei. But they can be blame, because there's nothing to support the hype, which is the core issue that's only used to claim he's the strongest.
    Again, you could see my point from the other posts. No they can't be blamed, who are you to blame people anyway? Whether you like it or not, these are manga facts. There are people who believe them and others like you who believe what they like or what they think is right.

    Quote Quote:
    Did you miss the "old knowledgeable Kages who were affected by age". That's four things in common, more if one adds in the fact that they both use the same two basic elements. The only thing the Byakugan and MS have in common is that both are doujutsus that can see chakra. The power of said sight, the fact that one is common while the other is considered rare, one being awakened at birth while the other requires specific conditions to awaken, one eventually leading to blindness at the cost of controlling a Bijuu, one granting a massive power-up upon gaining it along with a unique technique. They simply can't be compared when you talk about why one is easier to use then the other. There's a specific reason why MS is more tiring. Meanwhile, there isn't any reason Sarutobi and Onoki can't be compared stamina-wise.

    Seeing as the whole issue is Sarutobi lasting and whether he could have ended it without killing himself, that's not an excuse. The very fact that stopping an Edo summon is not some impossible task makes him coming to the conclusion that his only choice was to sacrifice himself just makes him look terrible. Chiyo was capable of doing plenty. It was directly because of her that Sakura survived several of Sasori's attacks, and it was her trick that stopped the complete assault of his puppet army. It was also because of her (puppets) that Sasori decided to allow the blow to land. Also, I acknowledged that they did it together, but Sakura's "power" wasn't what she offered to the partnership. He's "semi-immortal" because of his unique ninjutsu. You do not think that if he didn't have enough stamina to keep it going, he would likely die, since it was the thing keeping him going?
    Are you justifying hypocrisy? So in Hiruzen\Onoki's case, you compare ridiculous and minor similarities. But in the MS\Byakugan case, you talk about the differences? Intelligence, old age and being a Kage? These are similarities? Okay then, two cool guys, calm, smart and considered geniuses with blessed eyes. That's about it, right? So Sasuke is fucking pathetic compared to Neji. We also don't know how long can Hiruzen go, so...

    You can't defeat an Edo Tensei without a sealing Jutsu. I don't care what Chiyo did, she couldn't have won without Sakura. Enough with this useless argument. He's semi-immortal because he modified himself using a Kinjutsu. It doesn't require stamina anymore than Nagato's Rinnegan requiring stamina to remain apparent or Orochimaru requiring stamina to remain in another person's body.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, no he didn't. Reread the battle. They literally stood around most of it, allowing him to think up a plan. And outside the initial attack at the beginning, they didn't use any offensive ninjutsus, and the one time they did attack after that was with some taijutsu that wasn't even strong enough to take out a clone. How about the Five Elements Seal (to cancel their chakra usage) or Contract Seal (to free them from Orochimaru's command), or even his own Four Violet Flames Formation via clones (to keep them from attacking him). These are only options we've seen in Konoha, that's not even getting into whatever unknown sealing techniques Konoha gained from the Uzumaki clan. Stopping and sealing them is the same thing. That was literally what the Alliance was doing. I did read your comment, and then responded to it that hype was not enough. It's foolish to allow people to just believe anything, especially when the actual evidence disproves it. There is no point in turning a blind eye to a false belief when there is a multitude of evidence to show the truth.
    Them standing around was their problem, not mine. I also don't care about them going into Taijutsu, I'm not the one writing the Manga. How do you know the Contract Seal can cancel the ET bind? What Four Violet Flames Formation? If he believed he should sacrifice himself, then that's that.

    Well, it's your problem if you don't believe the hype and this "actual evidence" you speak of is nothing more than your assumption which is mostly based on what you like.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 15, 2013 at 02:59 AM.

  3. #1323
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Again, you could see my point from the other posts. No they can't be blamed, who are you to blame people anyway? Whether you like it or not, these are manga facts. There are people who believe them and others like you who believe what they like or what they think is right.
    Your point doesn't change the point I was making, that relying on hype has a limit. And the entire problem is that they aren't manga facts. If Sarutobi was to actually show something within the manga itself, then just like Tobirama, people would be fully willing to change their opinion about him. But until then, people who choose to ignore what is actually shown will not get to just sprout beliefs that have been shown untrue. It's perfectly within my right to point out what has actually been shown. It's not a mere matter of just believing something, it's a matter of one side having actual evidence and the other not.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Are you justifying hypocrisy? So in Hiruzen\Onoki's case, you compare ridiculous and minor similarities. But in the MS\Byakugan case, you talk about the differences? Intelligence, old age and being a Kage? These are similarities? Okay then, two cool guys, calm, smart and considered geniuses with blessed eyes. That's about it, right? So Sasuke is fucking pathetic compared to Neji. We also don't know how long can Hiruzen go, so...
    What hypocrisy? All those similarities tie directly to the usage of stamina, which was what was being compared. There are no other similarities between the MS and Byakugan to work in a comparison about the effort of usage and tiring, which is why I said before that you would have been better off using the Rinnegan instead. It has most of the previous mentioned stuff in common with the MS, therefore making it fitting of being compared. Your following example makes no sense, as you're not comparing anything, just calling one pathetic without saying why. And we do know, that whole battle was about how he had become so limited by age that he could barely risk using clones or he would shorten his own life.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You can't defeat an Edo Tensei without a sealing Jutsu. I don't care what Chiyo did, she couldn't have won without Sakura. Enough with this useless argument. He's semi-immortal because he modified himself using a Kinjutsu. It doesn't require stamina anymore than Nagato's Rinnegan requiring stamina to remain apparent or Orochimaru requiring stamina to remain in another person's body.
    Aside from the fact that I listed several Konoha seals, we've seen that Edo summons can be stopped without literally sealing them. We saw that with Sasori and Deidara. Heck, I just realized that Sarutobi could have used Enma's cage form for that, freeing him up from even having to deal with them. Considering the argument was never about Chiyo winning "alone", but simply the fact that she was able to fight as long and as good as someone much younger, the point remains. Um, all those things require stamina. It's been a key point about how possessing someone else's doujutsu is draining, thus the reason Madara picked a Uzumaki, and we saw that Orochimaru's technique required him to maintain enough chakra else the absorbed personalities would be able to resurface, as we saw when Sasuke ran low on chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Them standing around was their problem, not mine. I also don't care about them going into Taijutsu, I'm not the one writing the Manga. How do you know the Contract Seal can cancel the ET bind? What Four Violet Flames Formation? If he believed he should sacrifice himself, then that's that.
    Didn't say I was your problem. But you really can't claim that they were being S-rank when they were barely fighting back. I said it would free them from Orochimaru's command, and there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't have. It freed the Kyuubi from a much more powerful control. And the Four Violet Flames Formation was the barrier that trapped him in the first place. We saw during the current arc that it could also stop an Edo summon. The problem isn't what he choose to to, it's other people claiming that it was the only option, which has been shown not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Well, it's your problem if you don't believe the hype and this "actual evidence" you speak of is nothing more than your assumption which is mostly based on what you like.
    It's not my "assumption" that Hashirama's power was shown superior to five Kages, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could make the most powerful creatures in the world his bitches, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could remake the landscape, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could go solo against the guy who was massacring even the strongest ninjas of the Alliance, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama had as much chakra as the complete Kyuubi without even going into Sage Mode, and it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama is only second to the Juubi Jinchuuriki. It has nothing to do with what I like, it has to do with what has actually been shown. Now unless you can tell me why I shouldn't take everything we have been shown about Hashirama as proof, I see no reason to believe a few statements mentioned in the past should somehow outweigh all that.

  4. #1324
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Your point doesn't change the point I was making, that relying on hype has a limit. And the entire problem is that they aren't manga facts. If Sarutobi was to actually show something within the manga itself, then just like Tobirama, people would be fully willing to change their opinion about him. But until then, people who choose to ignore what is actually shown will not get to just sprout beliefs that have been shown untrue. It's perfectly within my right to point out what has actually been shown. It's not a mere matter of just believing something, it's a matter of one side having actual evidence and the other not.
    It doesn't seem like you understand the definition of a "fact." He doesn't need to show jackshit. Nothing. As long as he was stated to be something, then he is. What is shown and what is not shown, matters little.

    Quote Quote:
    What hypocrisy? All those similarities tie directly to the usage of stamina, which was what was being compared. There are no other similarities between the MS and Byakugan to work in a comparison about the effort of usage and tiring, which is why I said before that you would have been better off using the Rinnegan instead. It has most of the previous mentioned stuff in common with the MS, therefore making it fitting of being compared. Your following example makes no sense, as you're not comparing anything, just calling one pathetic without saying why. And we do know, that whole battle was about how he had become so limited by age that he could barely risk using clones or he would shorten his own life.
    The hypocrisy of comparing the similarities of two old men, while comparing the differences between two other things. You either compare the differences or similarities for both. It makes no sense because it's exactly what YOU are doing. It's like hating on Naruto by mentioning the bad things, while sucking on One Piece by mentioning the good things.

    Quote Quote:
    Aside from the fact that I listed several Konoha seals, we've seen that Edo summons can be stopped without literally sealing them. We saw that with Sasori and Deidara. Heck, I just realized that Sarutobi could have used Enma's cage form for that, freeing him up from even having to deal with them. Considering the argument was never about Chiyo winning "alone", but simply the fact that she was able to fight as long and as good as someone much younger, the point remains. Um, all those things require stamina. It's been a key point about how possessing someone else's doujutsu is draining, thus the reason Madara picked a Uzumaki, and we saw that Orochimaru's technique required him to maintain enough chakra else the absorbed personalities would be able to resurface, as we saw when Sasuke ran low on chakra.
    You mean the useless seals that we don't know whether they would work or not? That would've been useful had Orochmaru not been there and had it been that easy to lock them up in a cage. We don't know how long can Sarutobi hold out, your argument is invalid. Unless you bring me a page saying that just having the eyes uses chakra, then this argument is as invalid as the one before. Sasuke's case is different, it's like Orochimaru's. Otherwise, the girl's personality in part 1 would've surfaced after his fight with Hiruzen.

    Quote Quote:
    Didn't say I was your problem. But you really can't claim that they were being S-rank when they were barely fighting back. I said it would free them from Orochimaru's command, and there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't have. It freed the Kyuubi from a much more powerful control. And the Four Violet Flames Formation was the barrier that trapped him in the first place. We saw during the current arc that it could also stop an Edo summon. The problem isn't what he choose to to, it's other people claiming that it was the only option, which has been shown not true.
    The God of Shinobi and his brother aren't S-class Shinobis? Just 'cause they didn't have time to fight back? Whatever. There's no reason to believe it will free them either, that's another useless argument. It requires four people, so I don't see your point. We don't know if that was true or not.

    Quote Quote:
    It's not my "assumption" that Hashirama's power was shown superior to five Kages, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could make the most powerful creatures in the world his bitches, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could remake the landscape, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama could go solo against the guy who was massacring even the strongest ninjas of the Alliance, it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama had as much chakra as the complete Kyuubi without even going into Sage Mode, and it's not my "assumption" that Hashirama is only second to the Juubi Jinchuuriki. It has nothing to do with what I like, it has to do with what has actually been shown. Now unless you can tell me why I shouldn't take everything we have been shown about Hashirama as proof, I see no reason to believe a few statements mentioned in the past should somehow outweigh all that.
    But it's your assumption that these things puts him above others who haven't shown their power. It's your assumption that these things negate what was said. And yes, it's your assumption that he's second only to the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 18, 2013 at 02:52 AM.

  5. #1325
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Who do you mean by "those who haven't shown their power?"

    Hiruzen as shown in Part I would be obliterated by the Raikage and lose to Oonoki. The Raikage's speed is too great for Hiruzen or almost anyone without comparable speed and ability to see the attack coming, Hiraishin, or fast reflexes and speed to dodge. He'd be hit before he realized what happened. Oonoki also seems to be able to last longer, can fly, and has one of the most destructive jutsu. Hiruzen can't fly nor does he have anything that can compete with the Dust Element. HE also got tired quickly.

    Going by hype alone is illogical and a huge fallacy in arguments as hype can be exaggerated or proven wrong.

  6. #1326
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It doesn't seem like you understand the definition of a "fact." He doesn't need to show jackshit. Nothing. As long as he was stated to be something, then he is. What is shown and what is not shown, matters little.
    A "fact" is something backed up by evidence, something that can be proven. None of the claims about Sarutobi have been proven or backed up. I can claim the world is flat, but that wouldn't make it true.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    The hypocrisy of comparing the similarities of two old men, while comparing the differences between two other things. You either compare the differences or similarities for both. It makes no sense because it's exactly what YOU are doing. It's like hating on Naruto by mentioning the bad things, while sucking on One Piece by mentioning the good things.
    No, there is no hypocrisy since I did mention the similarities between MS and the Byakugan. Their only similarities are being doujutsus that see chakra.

    Anyway, I mentioned their similarities because they tie directly into the issue of stamina, which was what was being compared. Their old age, experience, strength, and perhaps even natures would all be factors in how well they use it. On the otherhand, the differences between MS and the Byakugan is the exact reason why they can't be compared when it comes to wearing the user out. There are specific reasons why the MS is tiring, reasons that the Byakugan lacks. So it simply doesn't work. Meanwhile, there is no such excuse with Sarutobi and Onoki. It's not like say, I was comparing him to Naruto, which obviously wouldn't work because Naruto has a second source and is a Uzumaki and much younger. There is no reason a comparison doesn't work between Sarutobi and Onoki. The latter was never proclaimed to have above average chakra, or use less costly techniques, or secretly had another source of chakra within his body.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You mean the useless seals that we don't know whether they would work or not? That would've been useful had Orochmaru not been there and had it been that easy to lock them up in a cage. We don't know how long can Sarutobi hold out, your argument is invalid. Unless you bring me a page saying that just having the eyes uses chakra, then this argument is as invalid as the one before. Sasuke's case is different, it's like Orochimaru's. Otherwise, the girl's personality in part 1 would've surfaced after his fight with Hiruzen.
    Exactly what says they would have been useless? And Orochimaru being there meant nothing when he let Sarutobi do as he pleased. And yeah, we do. Um, we've known since early on in the series that the Sharingan was draining for Kakashi, and Orochimaru never ran out of chakra against Sarutobi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    The God of Shinobi and his brother aren't S-class Shinobis? Just 'cause they didn't have time to fight back? Whatever. There's no reason to believe it will free them either, that's another useless argument. It requires four people, so I don't see your point. We don't know if that was true or not.
    Their Part One Edo versions weren't, as we were told. And it wasn't that they didn't "have time to fight back". They literally stood around most of the battle. We have it freeing one being from the control of another, without anything to suggest it wouldn't work. And the point is that he has the ability to make clones, so there was nothing preventing him from preforming that. What do you mean we don't know? We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    But it's your assumption that these things puts him above others who haven't shown their power. It's your assumption that these things negate what was said. And yes, it's your assumption that he's second only to the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
    Except we've seen Sarutobi's power, so that argument is moot. Not only have we seen his power, but we've seen it in a body with infinite stamina, meaning there is no excuse holding him back. Explain how they don't, explain how characters like Dan and Tsunade , who would have seen Sarutobi in his prime, still only considered Hashirama the counter to Madara. And no, Hashirama outright acknowledged that Obito was stronger then even him.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    A "fact" is something backed up by evidence, something that can be proven. None of the claims about Sarutobi have been proven or backed up. I can claim the world is flat, but that wouldn't make it true.
    A fact IS evidence. You don't need evidence to backup a fact. You claiming the world is flat isn't a fact. You definitely don't know the definition of a fact.

    Quote Quote:
    No, there is no hypocrisy since I did mention the similarities between MS and the Byakugan. Their only similarities are being doujutsus that see chakra.

    Anyway, I mentioned their similarities because they tie directly into the issue of stamina, which was what was being compared. Their old age, experience, strength, and perhaps even natures would all be factors in how well they use it. On the otherhand, the differences between MS and the Byakugan is the exact reason why they can't be compared when it comes to wearing the user out. There are specific reasons why the MS is tiring, reasons that the Byakugan lacks. So it simply doesn't work. Meanwhile, there is no such excuse with Sarutobi and Onoki. It's not like say, I was comparing him to Naruto, which obviously wouldn't work because Naruto has a second source and is a Uzumaki and much younger. There is no reason a comparison doesn't work between Sarutobi and Onoki. The latter was never proclaimed to have above average chakra, or use less costly techniques, or secretly had another source of chakra within his body.
    There are more similarities between Sasuke and Neji, which is my original example, if I remember.

    I'll tell you why it doesn't work. Because Onoki uses a Kekkei Tota, and because we don't know how long could Sarutobi last.

    Quote Quote:
    Exactly what says they would have been useless? And Orochimaru being there meant nothing when he let Sarutobi do as he pleased. And yeah, we do. Um, we've known since early on in the series that the Sharingan was draining for Kakashi, and Orochimaru never ran out of chakra against Sarutobi.
    What proof do you have that they would have been useful? Orochimaru was there regardless of what he did. When he USES it, not by it being there alone. He ran out of life, with his soul nearly being sucked out.

    Quote Quote:
    Their Part One Edo versions weren't, as we were told. And it wasn't that they didn't "have time to fight back". They literally stood around most of the battle. We have it freeing one being from the control of another, without anything to suggest it wouldn't work. And the point is that he has the ability to make clones, so there was nothing preventing him from preforming that. What do you mean we don't know? We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon.
    We weren't told that. What you think of the battle doesn't matter at all, unfortunately. In every single battle in history of manga, there are people standing around. It doesn't make it any less a battle. We saw it free a demon from a human, that has nothing to do with ET. I don't have time for you, unless you can prove it will work, cut it out. Shadow clones are tiring, and he was engaged by three Kage level Shinobis, and we don't know if that would have been able to stop Orochimaru or not. None of which were available for Hiruzen.

    Quote Quote:
    Except we've seen Sarutobi's power, so that argument is moot. Not only have we seen his power, but we've seen it in a body with infinite stamina, meaning there is no excuse holding him back. Explain how they don't, explain how characters like Dan and Tsunade , who would have seen Sarutobi in his prime, still only considered Hashirama the counter to Madara. And no, Hashirama outright acknowledged that Obito was stronger then even him.
    We haven't seen him in his prime, which is what the hype is based on. Explain how they don't? That's not how it works. As long as they don't saw he's stronger than anyone, then I have no need to explain anything. Dan and Tsunade never said that Hashirama is the only one STRONGER than Hiruzen. So that doesn't negate anything. How is Hashirama claiming Obito was stronger than him = Hashirama being second only to Juubi Jinchuuriki?

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    A fact IS evidence. You don't need evidence to backup a fact. You claiming the world is flat isn't a fact. You definitely don't know the definition of a fact.
    They aren't facts, they're claims. A fact is something that can be proven, which isn't the case here. Thus the whole "the world is flat" comment, a claim that was considered true for thousands of years before it was proven the world was round. Several claims about him have already been proven false: the claim about him being able to use all the techniques in Konoha (which is impossible now due to natures and various Bloodline Limits) and his battle with Orochimaru being how Kage-level shinobi's fought (it got overshadowed by the fights involving genin's later on).

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    There are more similarities between Sasuke and Neji, which is my original example, if I remember..
    But none of them have anything to do with the tiring comparison. I can clearly point to the reason for that, the MS's costly techniques and eventual blindness. There's an obvious disconnect between the two, where there isn't one with Sarutobi and Onoki. The whole excuse for Sarutobi's lack of power was that he was old, that when he was younger he was much stronger. So bring in another old character who's still quite strong is perfectly valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'll tell you why it doesn't work. Because Onoki uses a Kekkei Tota, and because we don't know how long could Sarutobi last.
    What does having a Kekkei Tota have to do with stamina? Unless you can point to where it was stated that it lessens the cost of chakra or something, Onoki having it doesn't factor into how much stamina he has. And as mentioned before, we were constantly reminded about his limit. It was claimed he couldn't make clones with his stamina as they would be a waste, and then when he did, it was mentioned that he was shortening his lifespan.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What proof do you have that they would have been useful? Orochimaru was there regardless of what he did. When he USES it, not by it being there alone. He ran out of life, with his soul nearly being sucked out.
    The current arc, which showed that the Edo summons can be affected by regular techniques. Yeah, hanging back and not trying to stop him in any way. You really can't use Orochimaru being there as an excuse for Sarutobi not acting, because that clearly didn't stop Sarutobi from doing anything. It's always in use, which is why he has to cover it. Kakashi can't deactivate it. It was the same with Danzo. Orochimaru didn't run out of life, Sarutobi was only able to partially pull his soul out. Nagato pulled more of Naruto's soul out, and Naruto was nowhere near dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    We weren't told that. What you think of the battle doesn't matter at all, unfortunately. In every single battle in history of manga, there are people standing around. It doesn't make it any less a battle. We saw it free a demon from a human, that has nothing to do with ET. I don't have time for you, unless you can prove it will work, cut it out. Shadow clones are tiring, and he was engaged by three Kage level Shinobis, and we don't know if that would have been able to stop Orochimaru or not. None of which were available for Hiruzen.
    Tobirama mentioned that they had been brought back this time at full power, meaning they hadn't been brought back at full power the first time. If they had been, then Orochimaru would never have been able to control them as we were shown. In those battles, people only stand around a little while and that's normally only because they are talking to each other. Neither of those were the case here. It broke the mental control, which is specifically how the Edo summons are controlled. Don't see how that has nothing to do with Edo Tensei. Shadow Clones being tiring is moot, because he used them regardless. And you can not defend his praise and then claim something wasn't available when part of his praise was knowing all the techniques in Konoha. If you acknowledge that part of his hype is false, then you can't claim for sure that the rest isn't, not to the point of placing it over things that have actually been shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    We haven't seen him in his prime, which is what the hype is based on. Explain how they don't? That's not how it works. As long as they don't saw he's stronger than anyone, then I have no need to explain anything. Dan and Tsunade never said that Hashirama is the only one STRONGER than Hiruzen. So that doesn't negate anything. How is Hashirama claiming Obito was stronger than him = Hashirama being second only to Juubi Jinchuuriki?
    No, he was still proclaimed the strongest even in his elder state. The only limitation was stamina, which isn't a concern for an Edo summon. I don't understand what you're saying. Hashirama and Madara have both been acknowledged as on a whole different level. Hashirama was outright called the strongest shinobi. That directly negates the argument with Sarutobi being the strongest. And since Hashirama, the strongest, admitted that Obito was stronger, then that puts him in second place.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    I'm going to have to say that Sarutobi's hype, although admirable, is just hype until proven otherwise, and sadly is probably going to remain as such. I can't imagine anything he could do at this point that could change that. I believe in giving some leeway to Sarutobi; he was old, it was Part I; understandable. However, the reality is that based on feats alone, he just can't even come close. Tsunade is often criticised for her ability in battle as a Hokage, but based on what we've seen, I can't imagine a fight between her and Sarutobi being anything other than her wrecking an old man. There are characters that we've yet to see their full repertoire, but as time goes on it expands. Sarutobi was revived, and for whatever reason, he has been completely useless. Hashirama's being a beast against Madara, Minato is doing his whole Kyuubi chakra thing, and Tobirama, who has had, rather unbelievably, almost no hype whatsoever, is out there being a boss every chapter. Sarutobi has broken a tree branch. When the Hokages first engaged Obito, Tobirama utilised ridiculous techniques, and amazing reactions, Sarutobi resorted to shadow shurikens, what? There weren't even that many of them. Sarutobi isn't ever going to be more than lost hype because Kishi obviously hates him, that can be the only reason for his showing, it's almost painful to read. He was missing for ages, doing what exactly? For years, I've hoped that Sarutobi would live up to the hype, at least half of it, and with his reappearance I watched and waited, and what I got was a broken tree branch, not even a lot of tree branches, just the one. In my mind, any chance Sarutobi had of giving his title any credibility was lost when his heroic moment was pruning an oversized tree with his big stick.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Sarutobi will fuse with his staff, becoming

    turn golden and beat the living shit out of the Shinju, you heard it first here.

    No more hype, just the best deus ex machine cameo in manga history.
    Firm but Fair

  12. #1331
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member naruto the best's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    ,Orochimaru said he could have been beaten by the old man during their fight had the latter were 10 years younger. That came from Oro himself, a dear close student of Hiruzen. This at least tells us that there is a good value of difference between a prime Hiruzen and an old one.

    ,The debate emerges when Hiruzen is being compared to the likes of Oonoki, that even in his old form, could still kick major asses. Disregarding additionals (Danzo, Chiyo, Kakuzu), there is only statement that could explain this stuff: People lose their prime at different rates. Just like in boxing, George Foreman and Mike Tyson are both fucking monsters in their primes. But Mike Tyson seemed to lose his prime game faster since George Foreman still managed to kick ass and became world's heavyweight champion at 40. This can be said to to other forms of sports battles. There are athletes who can still manage to pull the trigger even at old age, while the others lose it but their prime will tell us their feats are beyond outstanding similar to those who are still in the game even at old age. This just serves as an analogy.

    ,Hence, Hiruzen's prime, after all the previous descriptions, may actually be better than Oonoki's, but the former lost his prime faster than the latter, which resulted to Oonoki being seen as better in current terms. But in actuaal prime for prime, that's a different story.

    ,Finally, there are only two things to solve this Hiruzen issue or justify the title given to him: Either Kishi shows Hiruzen's prime flashback or Kishi does something to Hiruzen recently to show more of him just like what he did to Tobirama.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Considering all that Orochimaru has shown, including coming back from death, gonna have to see that to believe it. Especially since we saw Sarutobi 12 years before still not exactly putting on an awesome showing.

    That's a reasonable conclusion to believe, about Sarutobi growing weaker faster then the others. The only problem with that is according to the hype, Sarutobi's drop from his prime still left his above everyone else. So you really can't say that he was more affected by age when the hype has him still being the strongest. Not to mention that according to the stats, only his speed and stamina became "average". His ninjutsu and such was still at the max.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    ,^I find Iruka's statement about him the strongest among the kages (at old age) false as far as the abilities of other kages are concerned. I believe Iruka managed to pull that statement because of him witnessing Hiruzen's status during his prime and all, where in the actual setting during that time, it was not really the case. I have to say people pointing Iruka's statement as bullshit has good points to back their side up considering what we've seen so far, but again looking at the context where Iruka was standing would let us understand the statement has flaws with it. Just that it was merely for Iruka pointing his side, misunderstanding that the current hokage he's referring to was no longer at his best. Any further arguments in that area in my opinion would cut off to nothing.

    ,The title 'God of Shinobi' from Orochimaru wasn't addressed to him at his very own old age when they fought. Orochimaru was actually pointing at his prime. Monkey King Enma even said Hiruzen's showing was miserable compared to his prime. This title all points to his prime, not at his old age where his overall prowess might have held down. Thus, this leaves us to Iruka stating his alarming claim about Hiruzen, but again that hype should not be considered because of the reason I've already mentioned, not affecting the claim that age deteriorates Hiruzen's status - which is very reasonable to believe. I've already substantiated the 'rate of losing ones prime' thing in my previous post that further explains this.

    ,Long story short, the hype at old age is false. But as far as his true prime is concerned, we still have to see Kishi do his job about it, if ever he does. Yeah gotta have to see to finally believe it, which was the last point of my post

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    They aren't facts, they're claims. A fact is something that can be proven, which isn't the case here. Thus the whole "the world is flat" comment, a claim that was considered true for thousands of years before it was proven the world was round. Several claims about him have already been proven false: the claim about him being able to use all the techniques in Konoha (which is impossible now due to natures and various Bloodline Limits) and his battle with Orochimaru being how Kage-level shinobi's fought (it got overshadowed by the fights involving genin's later on).
    They are facts, considering they are from the author himself. Facts are different in real life. If god came and claimed something, it's a fact no matter what the fuck you say. It's like that in Manga.

    Quote Quote:
    But none of them have anything to do with the tiring comparison. I can clearly point to the reason for that, the MS's costly techniques and eventual blindness. There's an obvious disconnect between the two, where there isn't one with Sarutobi and Onoki. The whole excuse for Sarutobi's lack of power was that he was old, that when he was younger he was much stronger. So bring in another old character who's still quite strong is perfectly valid.
    It doesn't matter what techniques MS uses. It's exactly the same as your comparison between two old men. You overlook many things and focus on them being old. So, I'm gonna overlook everything and focus on them being eyes.

    Quote Quote:
    What does having a Kekkei Tota have to do with stamina? Unless you can point to where it was stated that it lessens the cost of chakra or something, Onoki having it doesn't factor into how much stamina he has. And as mentioned before, we were constantly reminded about his limit. It was claimed he couldn't make clones with his stamina as they would be a waste, and then when he did, it was mentioned that he was shortening his lifespan.
    Kekkei Tota makes his fighting style worlds different from Sarutobi's. So? How is him not being able to use many clones a demonstration of his stamina? Even Tobirama can only create two. Nothing to say how long he can last in battle.

    Quote Quote:
    The current arc, which showed that the Edo summons can be affected by regular techniques. Yeah, hanging back and not trying to stop him in any way. You really can't use Orochimaru being there as an excuse for Sarutobi not acting, because that clearly didn't stop Sarutobi from doing anything. It's always in use, which is why he has to cover it. Kakashi can't deactivate it. It was the same with Danzo. Orochimaru didn't run out of life, Sarutobi was only able to partially pull his soul out. Nagato pulled more of Naruto's soul out, and Naruto was nowhere near dying.
    I'm gonna overlook this weird and completely irrelevant bold statement that has no ties with the question I asked. Still not my problem what you think of the fight. If I was facing two loins and one bear, the bear was just watching, what is there to make me sure he won't attack the moment I do something that may piss him off? It's not active when he's covering it. That's the point. Kakuzu's Jutsu isn't constantly active. Okay, I guess. Still doesn't answer how he's using constantly using chakra to remain in other people's bodies.

    Quote Quote:
    Tobirama mentioned that they had been brought back this time at full power, meaning they hadn't been brought back at full power the first time. If they had been, then Orochimaru would never have been able to control them as we were shown. In those battles, people only stand around a little while and that's normally only because they are talking to each other. Neither of those were the case here. It broke the mental control, which is specifically how the Edo summons are controlled. Don't see how that has nothing to do with Edo Tensei. Shadow Clones being tiring is moot, because he used them regardless. And you can not defend his praise and then claim something wasn't available when part of his praise was knowing all the techniques in Konoha. If you acknowledge that part of his hype is false, then you can't claim for sure that the rest isn't, not to the point of placing it over things that have actually been shown.
    What I meant is that we weren't told they weren't S-class Shinobis. Mental control? Exactly the same as how Edos are controlled? Where do you even get that? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Edo Tensei. One was controlled by a Sharingan, the others were summoned from the fucking underworld with obedience literally implanted in their brains. He used them, but he needed one more to make the seal, including himself. And how am I supposed to magically know that when you said "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon"? Show me these options and how they are part of Konoha's Jutsus, then we'll talk about defending his hype.

    Quote Quote:
    No, he was still proclaimed the strongest even in his elder state. The only limitation was stamina, which isn't a concern for an Edo summon. I don't understand what you're saying. Hashirama and Madara have both been acknowledged as on a whole different level. Hashirama was outright called the strongest shinobi. That directly negates the argument with Sarutobi being the strongest. And since Hashirama, the strongest, admitted that Obito was stronger, then that puts him in second place.
    When was that? As far as I remember, they all talked about his prime. You assume the only limitation is his stamina, which is not true. Fair enough. Although it does contradict the statement about Hiruzen, it doesn't negate it. So don't push it.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by naruto the best View Post
    ,^I find Iruka's statement about him the strongest among the kages (at old age) false as far as the abilities of other kages are concerned. I believe Iruka managed to pull that statement because of him witnessing Hiruzen's status during his prime and all, where in the actual setting during that time, it was not really the case. I have to say people pointing Iruka's statement as bullshit has good points to back their side up considering what we've seen so far, but again looking at the context where Iruka was standing would let us understand the statement has flaws with it. Just that it was merely for Iruka pointing his side, misunderstanding that the current hokage he's referring to was no longer at his best. Any further arguments in that area in my opinion would cut off to nothing.

    ,The title 'God of Shinobi' from Orochimaru wasn't addressed to him at his very own old age when they fought. Orochimaru was actually pointing at his prime. Monkey King Enma even said Hiruzen's showing was miserable compared to his prime. This title all points to his prime, not at his old age where his overall prowess might have held down. Thus, this leaves us to Iruka stating his alarming claim about Hiruzen, but again that hype should not be considered because of the reason I've already mentioned, not affecting the claim that age deteriorates Hiruzen's status - which is very reasonable to believe. I've already substantiated the 'rate of losing ones prime' thing in my previous post that further explains this.

    ,Long story short, the hype at old age is false. But as far as his true prime is concerned, we still have to see Kishi do his job about it, if ever he does. Yeah gotta have to see to finally believe it, which was the last point of my post
    Iruka was too young to have seen Sarutobi in his prime, as Iruka's in his 20's. Orochimaru attributed that title to Sarutobi knowing all the techniques, so unless Sarutobi became forgetful since then, it wasn't limited to just his prime. And going by the databooks, Sarutobi didn't drop any in ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu. It was merely stamina and speed, both of which were still average.

    My original point was pretty much that, that using the hype is alright but shouldn't be taken over what has actually been shown. I would have no problem if Kishi actually showed Sarutobi being "godly", though I can't really imagine how he'll be able to show up teleportation, molecular manipulation, ultimate defenses, and strength that literally reshapes the landscape.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    They are facts, considering they are from the author himself. Facts are different in real life. If god came and claimed something, it's a fact no matter what the fuck you say. It's like that in Manga.
    No, that doesn't make them facts. If that was the case, then it would be a "fact" that Tobi is Madara, something that was stated by Kishi several times. Or that Susanoo is "awoken by having Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi". Or that the Bijuu's are "natural disasters". The fact is that Kishi has said quite a bit of stuff that has turnt out not true or been changed. That's why you can't rely completely on the hype.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It doesn't matter what techniques MS uses. It's exactly the same as your comparison between two old men. You overlook many things and focus on them being old. So, I'm gonna overlook everything and focus on them being eyes.
    It matters completely because it's those techniques that cause the tiring. It's not the same at all, because as mentioned, Sarutobi's stamina was tied directly to his old age. The only two things in the series stated to affect stamina was old age and sickness. So please tell me what I'm "overlooking".

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Kekkei Tota makes his fighting style worlds different from Sarutobi's. So? How is him not being able to use many clones a demonstration of his stamina? Even Tobirama can only create two. Nothing to say how long he can last in battle.
    And how does having a different battle style affect stamina? There has been nothing in the series stating such a thing. And that's a horrible example, since it was specifically mentioned why Tobirama could only make two, due to keeping the barrier up.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'm gonna overlook this weird and completely irrelevant bold statement that has no ties with the question I asked. Still not my problem what you think of the fight. If I was facing two loins and one bear, the bear was just watching, what is there to make me sure he won't attack the moment I do something that may piss him off? It's not active when he's covering it. That's the point. Kakuzu's Jutsu isn't constantly active. Okay, I guess. Still doesn't answer how he's using constantly using chakra to remain in other people's bodies.
    You asked how do we know they would work, and I gave you the answer, the current arc. It has repeatedly showed that the bodies of an Edo summon is just like a real body. They can bleed, they can be poisoned by breathing, they can be caught in genjutsus. They aren't immune to anything. It has nothing to do with what I think. You can't argue that he couldn't do something for fear of Orochimaru stopping him, because that logic would have applied to any action he took. By that reasoning, he shouldn't have been able to use the Dead Demon Seal, because Orochimaru was there. It just doesn't work. If Orochimaru didn't interfere when Sarutobi announced his intentions to use the Dead Demon Seal, then there is no reason to believe that Orochimaru would interfere had Sarutobi used something else, or to believe that Sarutobi was limited due to fear of Orochimaru stopping his plan.

    The Sharingan is still active even when covered. The entire point is that a transferred Sharingan can't deactivate, it's always on and drawing chakra. Covering merely lowers the drain. And Kakuzu's technique is constantly active, else his body wouldn't constantly be the way it is. It would go back to being a normal human body. And as pointed out, a portion of chakra was shown to be used to keep the other souls held down.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What I meant is that we weren't told they weren't S-class Shinobis. Mental control? Exactly the same as how Edos are controlled? Where do you even get that? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Edo Tensei. One was controlled by a Sharingan, the others were summoned from the fucking underworld with obedience literally implanted in their brains. He used them, but he needed one more to make the seal, including himself. And how am I supposed to magically know that when you said "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon"? Show me these options and how they are part of Konoha's Jutsus, then we'll talk about defending his hype.
    We were told they were lacking their actual power and that battle was nothing like any S-rank battle. We saw the mental control in the situation with Itachi, where the Edo summon control was broken with a genjutsu. Not to mention the several times we saw the elimination of minds to improve the user's control. And there was no reason why he couldn't make another. There was no limitation given on the amount during that situation. I did give you several options of seals known in Konoha.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    When was that? As far as I remember, they all talked about his prime. You assume the only limitation is his stamina, which is not true. Fair enough. Although it does contradict the statement about Hiruzen, it doesn't negate it. So don't push it.
    Iruka's, Gai and Kakashi's, Orochimaru's, and Kabuto's statement. No, I'm not only assuming that. That's the only limitation mentioned or shown. If you would like to show where another limitation was mentioned, then by all means, please do. And it is negated. If Hashirama is the strongest shinobi, then Sarutobi can't be stronger then him.

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