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Seeing as the whole issue is Sarutobi lasting and whether he could have ended it without killing himself, that's not an excuse. The very fact that stopping an Edo summon is not some impossible task makes him coming to the conclusion that his only choice was to sacrifice himself just makes him look terrible. Chiyo was capable of doing plenty. It was directly because of her that Sakura survived several of Sasori's attacks, and it was her trick that stopped the complete assault of his puppet army. It was also because of her (puppets) that Sasori decided to allow the blow to land. Also, I acknowledged that they did it together, but Sakura's "power" wasn't what she offered to the partnership. He's "semi-immortal" because of his unique ninjutsu. You do not think that if he didn't have enough stamina to keep it going, he would likely die, since it was the thing keeping him going?
Are you justifying hypocrisy? So in Hiruzen\Onoki's case, you compare ridiculous and minor similarities. But in the MS\Byakugan case, you talk about the differences? Intelligence, old age and being a Kage? These are similarities? Okay then, two cool guys, calm, smart and considered geniuses with blessed eyes. That's about it, right? So Sasuke is fucking pathetic compared to Neji. We also don't know how long can Hiruzen go, so...Quote:
You can't defeat an Edo Tensei without a sealing Jutsu. I don't care what Chiyo did, she couldn't have won without Sakura. Enough with this useless argument. He's semi-immortal because he modified himself using a Kinjutsu. It doesn't require stamina anymore than Nagato's Rinnegan requiring stamina to remain apparent or Orochimaru requiring stamina to remain in another person's body.
Them standing around was their problem, not mine. I also don't care about them going into Taijutsu, I'm not the one writing the Manga. How do you know the Contract Seal can cancel the ET bind? What Four Violet Flames Formation? If he believed he should sacrifice himself, then that's that.Quote:
Well, it's your problem if you don't believe the hype and this "actual evidence" you speak of is nothing more than your assumption which is mostly based on what you like.
Last edited by KingOfNight; September 15, 2013 at 02:59 AM.
The hypocrisy of comparing the similarities of two old men, while comparing the differences between two other things. You either compare the differences or similarities for both. It makes no sense because it's exactly what YOU are doing. It's like hating on Naruto by mentioning the bad things, while sucking on One Piece by mentioning the good things.Quote:
You mean the useless seals that we don't know whether they would work or not? That would've been useful had Orochmaru not been there and had it been that easy to lock them up in a cage. We don't know how long can Sarutobi hold out, your argument is invalid. Unless you bring me a page saying that just having the eyes uses chakra, then this argument is as invalid as the one before. Sasuke's case is different, it's like Orochimaru's. Otherwise, the girl's personality in part 1 would've surfaced after his fight with Hiruzen.Quote:
The God of Shinobi and his brother aren't S-class Shinobis? Just 'cause they didn't have time to fight back? Whatever. There's no reason to believe it will free them either, that's another useless argument. It requires four people, so I don't see your point. We don't know if that was true or not.Quote:
But it's your assumption that these things puts him above others who haven't shown their power. It's your assumption that these things negate what was said. And yes, it's your assumption that he's second only to the Juubi Jinchuuriki.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; September 18, 2013 at 02:52 AM.
Who do you mean by "those who haven't shown their power?"
Hiruzen as shown in Part I would be obliterated by the Raikage and lose to Oonoki. The Raikage's speed is too great for Hiruzen or almost anyone without comparable speed and ability to see the attack coming, Hiraishin, or fast reflexes and speed to dodge. He'd be hit before he realized what happened. Oonoki also seems to be able to last longer, can fly, and has one of the most destructive jutsu. Hiruzen can't fly nor does he have anything that can compete with the Dust Element. HE also got tired quickly.
Going by hype alone is illogical and a huge fallacy in arguments as hype can be exaggerated or proven wrong.
Anyway, I mentioned their similarities because they tie directly into the issue of stamina, which was what was being compared. Their old age, experience, strength, and perhaps even natures would all be factors in how well they use it. On the otherhand, the differences between MS and the Byakugan is the exact reason why they can't be compared when it comes to wearing the user out. There are specific reasons why the MS is tiring, reasons that the Byakugan lacks. So it simply doesn't work. Meanwhile, there is no such excuse with Sarutobi and Onoki. It's not like say, I was comparing him to Naruto, which obviously wouldn't work because Naruto has a second source and is a Uzumaki and much younger. There is no reason a comparison doesn't work between Sarutobi and Onoki. The latter was never proclaimed to have above average chakra, or use less costly techniques, or secretly had another source of chakra within his body.
Sharingan was draining for Kakashi, and Orochimaru never ran out of chakra against Sarutobi.
There are more similarities between Sasuke and Neji, which is my original example, if I remember.Quote:
I'll tell you why it doesn't work. Because Onoki uses a Kekkei Tota, and because we don't know how long could Sarutobi last.
What proof do you have that they would have been useful? Orochimaru was there regardless of what he did. When he USES it, not by it being there alone. He ran out of life, with his soul nearly being sucked out.Quote:
We weren't told that. What you think of the battle doesn't matter at all, unfortunately. In every single battle in history of manga, there are people standing around. It doesn't make it any less a battle. We saw it free a demon from a human, that has nothing to do with ET. I don't have time for you, unless you can prove it will work, cut it out. Shadow clones are tiring, and he was engaged by three Kage level Shinobis, and we don't know if that would have been able to stop Orochimaru or not. None of which were available for Hiruzen.Quote:
We haven't seen him in his prime, which is what the hype is based on. Explain how they don't? That's not how it works. As long as they don't saw he's stronger than anyone, then I have no need to explain anything. Dan and Tsunade never said that Hashirama is the only one STRONGER than Hiruzen. So that doesn't negate anything. How is Hashirama claiming Obito was stronger than him = Hashirama being second only to Juubi Jinchuuriki?Quote:
It was claimed he couldn't make clones with his stamina as they would be a waste, and then when he did, it was mentioned that he was shortening his lifespan.
Tobirama mentioned that they had been brought back this time at full power, meaning they hadn't been brought back at full power the first time. If they had been, then Orochimaru would never have been able to control them as we were shown. In those battles, people only stand around a little while and that's normally only because they are talking to each other. Neither of those were the case here. It broke the mental control, which is specifically how the Edo summons are controlled. Don't see how that has nothing to do with Edo Tensei. Shadow Clones being tiring is moot, because he used them regardless. And you can not defend his praise and then claim something wasn't available when part of his praise was knowing all the techniques in Konoha. If you acknowledge that part of his hype is false, then you can't claim for sure that the rest isn't, not to the point of placing it over things that have actually been shown.
Hashirama was outright called the strongest shinobi. That directly negates the argument with Sarutobi being the strongest. And since Hashirama, the strongest, admitted that Obito was stronger, then that puts him in second place.
I'm going to have to say that Sarutobi's hype, although admirable, is just hype until proven otherwise, and sadly is probably going to remain as such. I can't imagine anything he could do at this point that could change that. I believe in giving some leeway to Sarutobi; he was old, it was Part I; understandable. However, the reality is that based on feats alone, he just can't even come close. Tsunade is often criticised for her ability in battle as a Hokage, but based on what we've seen, I can't imagine a fight between her and Sarutobi being anything other than her wrecking an old man. There are characters that we've yet to see their full repertoire, but as time goes on it expands. Sarutobi was revived, and for whatever reason, he has been completely useless. Hashirama's being a beast against Madara, Minato is doing his whole Kyuubi chakra thing, and Tobirama, who has had, rather unbelievably, almost no hype whatsoever, is out there being a boss every chapter. Sarutobi has broken a tree branch. When the Hokages first engaged Obito, Tobirama utilised ridiculous techniques, and amazing reactions, Sarutobi resorted to shadow shurikens, what? There weren't even that many of them. Sarutobi isn't ever going to be more than lost hype because Kishi obviously hates him, that can be the only reason for his showing, it's almost painful to read. He was missing for ages, doing what exactly? For years, I've hoped that Sarutobi would live up to the hype, at least half of it, and with his reappearance I watched and waited, and what I got was a broken tree branch, not even a lot of tree branches, just the one. In my mind, any chance Sarutobi had of giving his title any credibility was lost when his heroic moment was pruning an oversized tree with his big stick.
Sarutobi will fuse with his staff, becoming
turn golden and beat the living shit out of the Shinju, you heard it first here.
No more hype, just the best deus ex machine cameo in manga history.
,Orochimaru said he could have been beaten by the old man during their fight had the latter were 10 years younger. That came from Oro himself, a dear close student of Hiruzen. This at least tells us that there is a good value of difference between a prime Hiruzen and an old one.
,The debate emerges when Hiruzen is being compared to the likes of Oonoki, that even in his old form, could still kick major asses. Disregarding additionals (Danzo, Chiyo, Kakuzu), there is only statement that could explain this stuff: People lose their prime at different rates. Just like in boxing, George Foreman and Mike Tyson are both fucking monsters in their primes. But Mike Tyson seemed to lose his prime game faster since George Foreman still managed to kick ass and became world's heavyweight champion at 40. This can be said to to other forms of sports battles. There are athletes who can still manage to pull the trigger even at old age, while the others lose it but their prime will tell us their feats are beyond outstanding similar to those who are still in the game even at old age. This just serves as an analogy.
,Hence, Hiruzen's prime, after all the previous descriptions, may actually be better than Oonoki's, but the former lost his prime faster than the latter, which resulted to Oonoki being seen as better in current terms. But in actuaal prime for prime, that's a different story.
,Finally, there are only two things to solve this Hiruzen issue or justify the title given to him: Either Kishi shows Hiruzen's prime flashback or Kishi does something to Hiruzen recently to show more of him just like what he did to Tobirama.
Considering all that Orochimaru has shown, including coming back from death, gonna have to see that to believe it. Especially since we saw Sarutobi 12 years before still not exactly putting on an awesome showing.
That's a reasonable conclusion to believe, about Sarutobi growing weaker faster then the others. The only problem with that is according to the hype, Sarutobi's drop from his prime still left his above everyone else. So you really can't say that he was more affected by age when the hype has him still being the strongest. Not to mention that according to the stats, only his speed and stamina became "average". His ninjutsu and such was still at the max.
,^I find Iruka's statement about him the strongest among the kages (at old age) false as far as the abilities of other kages are concerned. I believe Iruka managed to pull that statement because of him witnessing Hiruzen's status during his prime and all, where in the actual setting during that time, it was not really the case. I have to say people pointing Iruka's statement as bullshit has good points to back their side up considering what we've seen so far, but again looking at the context where Iruka was standing would let us understand the statement has flaws with it. Just that it was merely for Iruka pointing his side, misunderstanding that the current hokage he's referring to was no longer at his best. Any further arguments in that area in my opinion would cut off to nothing.
,The title 'God of Shinobi' from Orochimaru wasn't addressed to him at his very own old age when they fought. Orochimaru was actually pointing at his prime. Monkey King Enma even said Hiruzen's showing was miserable compared to his prime. This title all points to his prime, not at his old age where his overall prowess might have held down. Thus, this leaves us to Iruka stating his alarming claim about Hiruzen, but again that hype should not be considered because of the reason I've already mentioned, not affecting the claim that age deteriorates Hiruzen's status - which is very reasonable to believe. I've already substantiated the 'rate of losing ones prime' thing in my previous post that further explains this.
,Long story short, the hype at old age is false. But as far as his true prime is concerned, we still have to see Kishi do his job about it, if ever he does. Yeah gotta have to see to finally believe it, which was the last point of my post
It doesn't matter what techniques MS uses. It's exactly the same as your comparison between two old men. You overlook many things and focus on them being old. So, I'm gonna overlook everything and focus on them being eyes.Quote:
Kekkei Tota makes his fighting style worlds different from Sarutobi's. So? How is him not being able to use many clones a demonstration of his stamina? Even Tobirama can only create two. Nothing to say how long he can last in battle.Quote:
I'm gonna overlook this weird and completely irrelevant bold statement that has no ties with the question I asked. Still not my problem what you think of the fight. If I was facing two loins and one bear, the bear was just watching, what is there to make me sure he won't attack the moment I do something that may piss him off? It's not active when he's covering it. That's the point. Kakuzu's Jutsu isn't constantly active. Okay, I guess. Still doesn't answer how he's using constantly using chakra to remain in other people's bodies.Quote:
What I meant is that we weren't told they weren't S-class Shinobis. Mental control? Exactly the same as how Edos are controlled? Where do you even get that? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Edo Tensei. One was controlled by a Sharingan, the others were summoned from the fucking underworld with obedience literally implanted in their brains. He used them, but he needed one more to make the seal, including himself. And how am I supposed to magically know that when you said "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon"? Show me these options and how they are part of Konoha's Jutsus, then we'll talk about defending his hype.Quote:
When was that? As far as I remember, they all talked about his prime. You assume the only limitation is his stamina, which is not true. Fair enough. Although it does contradict the statement about Hiruzen, it doesn't negate it. So don't push it.Quote:
My original point was pretty much that, that using the hype is alright but shouldn't be taken over what has actually been shown. I would have no problem if Kishi actually showed Sarutobi being "godly", though I can't really imagine how he'll be able to show up teleportation, molecular manipulation, ultimate defenses, and strength that literally reshapes the landscape.
The Sharingan is still active even when covered. The entire point is that a transferred Sharingan can't deactivate, it's always on and drawing chakra. Covering merely lowers the drain. And Kakuzu's technique is constantly active, else his body wouldn't constantly be the way it is. It would go back to being a normal human body. And as pointed out, a portion of chakra was shown to be used to keep the other souls held down.
Iruka's, Gai and Kakashi's, Orochimaru's, and Kabuto's statement. No, I'm not only assuming that. That's the only limitation mentioned or shown. If you would like to show where another limitation was mentioned, then by all means, please do. And it is negated. If Hashirama is the strongest shinobi, then Sarutobi can't be stronger then him.