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No, it doesn't. You overlook them being two completely different humans, who fight with a completely different fighting style, and use completely different techniques. And Sarutobi's stamina hasn't jackshit to do with his power in his prime, nor was it stated that his weakness is due to the lack of stamina, nor did we see how long he can fight.Quote:
I'd expect you to refrain from such stupid statements (no offense). Techniques require different amount of chakra, thus affect stamina differently. Fighting style thus, makes all the difference. Though I don't even see the point, as we don't know how long can Sarutobi last. That was Hashirama, not Tobirama. And even if he can use more, he's in his prime. Don't talk about horrible examples, you using Kage Bunshin as a demonstration of his stamina is as horrible example as they can get.Quote:
I asked how do you know the seals you mentioned would work, not how ordinary attacks fair against Edos. It's all about what you think actually. The DDS was meant for Orochimaru too, so this argument doesn't live very long. Again, not my problem what you think of the battle. A battle is a battle, and you want him to let his guard down and do what YOU want him to do.Quote:
Please, link this to me. How can he remain alive if it's constantly draining chakra? This was never said about Kakuzu's body. His body was modified, and there's no returning it back to normal, and again, he wouldn't be alive if it's constantly using chakra. In Sasuke's case, in the cursed seal's case. Not Orochimaru's case.
We weren't told by how much were they weaker. It can't possibly be anything below 60% percent, since Orochimaru was stated to have perfected the technique. It was more impressive than the battle with Hidan. Itachi's case has nothing to do with this. That's not up for you to decide. Look, I'm not gonna sit here and watch your attempts at avoiding any points you can't answer. You said, "we had an entire showcase of seals to stop Edo's in the current war arc." I want you, to list me these Konoha seals that were used to stop Edo's in THIS war arc. What you listed was : Five Elements seal (no fucking clue where in the war arc was this used against an Edo), Contract seal (same as before), and FVFF (as we're talking about up there). So quit your attempts at running and list me Konoha seals that were used in this arc to seal Edos.Quote:
Are you purposely acting like that (don't want to call you names)? Are you trolling me for some reason? I'm serious, your whole arguments are just evasive and pretending you don't remember or something like that. You said "He was proclaimed the strongest Hokage, even in his elderly state." Where in these links was that said? Iruka said "WAS" and Sarutobi called him for using past tense. Kakashi and Guy didn't say anything about him being the strongest in his old state. Orochimaru didn't either. And Kabuto didn't say anything about prime, old or even the Hokages in general. He simply said that the Hokage is the strongest among the Five Kages.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; September 23, 2013 at 05:09 AM.
Oh please, that the ET can be sealed in so many ways is a clear retcon to allow so many characters to perform those sealings in so many ways.
Isn't stamina half of what is needed to perform a jutsu? Old bones and joints play an important role to the majority of old people, Onoki being able to avoid that handicap for the biggest part due to light weight an flyng jutsu creates a whole different combat situation for Sarutobi. I don't even know how you[RK] can keep arguing against that so much, it's like you don't apply anything from biology and real life experiences into your judgement.
His preference to use taijutsu combined with his monkey staff imply that he has to rely on his body often, while Onoki can just spamannihilator beams until he is out of chakra.
Last edited by Schabrak; September 25, 2013 at 01:32 AM.
Just my pinion on the point why didn't sarutobi used any other seal instead of reaper God.
Almost All the Edo Tenseis who were sealed in recent chapters were handicapped after taking a powerful attack plus their (ETs) weaknesses were already known.
In case of Sarutobi he had to deal enough damage to both ETs at the same time while making sure the Oro won't be able to interfere with his sealing was a near impossible feat. SO he took the method about which he was sure that will work.
And i guess he didn't knew MUCH about Edo Tensei as well.
I gave you this link earlier.
was still fully capable of creating more then a dozen.
Link what, it's obvious. If Kakashi could deactivate it, then there would be no need to cover it. And unless you're trying to argue that a person doesn't need lungs or organs or bones to live in the Narutoverse, how else do you think that Kakuzu is still alive with a body of nothing but a bunch of hearts and threads? The Cursed Seal contained Orochimaru's chakra/soul, as we saw with his recent resurrection.
How am I avoiding a point I never claim? Please, show me where I said that. My claim was "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon." Link.
In this context, stamina and chakra are interchangeable. The databook holds them as the same, and it also has Sarutobi not suffering in the physical area of taijutsu. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Onoki wasn't the only one being used. I had also referred to both Chiyo and Danzo, both of which used taijutsu and relied upon physical movement. So regardless of whether you take stamina literally or general, the argument remains pretty much the same.
In addition, shouldn't the person spamming techniques be the one to wear out faster? Not to mention, what implied preference? According to the hype, Sarutobi was a well-rounded fighter just as skilled in ninjutsu and genjutsu as taijutsu.
Even if he could have sealed them normally, he still had to kill Orochimaru. If he failed, then they would be unsealed and everyone would be fucked. If he succeeded, these two would have to be held under lock and key for eternity because only the summoner can unsummon them.
Frankly, Sarturobi had little choice but to give up his life.
Since this and the argument below are similar, I will talk about it below. The link doesn't show how long he can last, nor does it say that his stamina is the main issue. It simply states that his performance is different because of his low chakra.Quote:
Techniques have everything to do with fighting styles. The examples you gave, all have one Jutsu in common. So spare me another one of your horrible examples. Well if we're gonna go like that, then the argument doesn't work because we don't know how long Sarutobi can last in the first place. It's horrible example because it uses a tremendous amount of chakra. What you said about Kage Bunshin, was one of the most nonsensical things I've heard in my whole life. It made literally, no sense. So you're saying, that it costs no chakra at all, and one can make them infinitely? That's exactly what you said. And because they can make infinite amount, without draining any chakra, it's dangerous? What the fuck is that? Kakashi didn't use Kage Bunshin, it was a bluff as he stated in the page before.Quote:
So if ordinary attacks work, then random ass seals that serve entirely different purposes would also magically work? Please...just stop. Another weird statement. Elaborate if you well. Sasuke Vs Mei was rather tame. Because you want him to use imaginary seals in an imaginary scenario that would require his full attention while Orochimaru could be stabbing the shit out of him the whole time.Quote:
No, it's not obvious. I want a link that says it's continuously drawing chakra even when it's covered. Oh I don't know, maybe the same way Sasori remained alive with nothing in his body. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Again, quit evading shit you can't answer to.Quote:
How weak YOU think they are. Link me when was it said that the amount of corpses is what Kabuto meant by perfecting it. His battle with Asuma. Your whole mental argument actually has nothing to do with this, not just Itachi's. Unless you show me that controlling Edos is the same as controlling a Kyuubi with a Sharingan and that Contract Seal will actually work, don't waste my time.Quote:
Your claim in the post below it implied that those options were within Konoha's library. So you did technically claim that.
Oh I don't know, maybe when you avoided answering how the seals would work and said that ordinary attacks work instead. And there you're, once again. Are you sure that past tense wasn't used because NONE OF THE OTHER LINKS TALK ABOUT HIM BEING THE STRONGEST?Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; September 25, 2013 at 01:16 PM.
We see him breathing hard and nearly exhausted. Every other character we witness in such a situation don't fight for much longer, at least without outside help. And it's not an horrible example. Never was it stated that Kage Bunshin uses a tremendous amount of chakra. Nonsensical? We were literally told how the techniques work, that the user's chakra is evenly split among them. And as I said, it has no set cost. A person with 100 points of chakra and a person with 20 points of chakra can both make the same number of clones. The only difference is that even though they both make four clones, the clones of the person with 100 points will each have 25 points to use, while the clones of the person with 20 points will only have 5 points of chakra to use. Thus the reason it's so dangerous, since a person with low stamina can easily end up splitting their chakra incredibility low making too many. I'm not sure how you are claiming that Kakashi didn't use Shadow Clones when we literally see him doing so. It was a bluff, because as mentioned, those clones likely were so weak they wouldn't have been able to put up any sort of fight.
Water Barrier technique without any external source of water, but not only has both Kakashi and Darui done that, but even a bunch of nameless fodder were capable of it. And Hashirama's usage of Mokuton was supposedly an example of a Hokage-level exchange, but Yamato's usage was just as large. How about a link showing that Orochimaru's power over Edo Tensei was greater then Kabuto's. Um, when did the Jounin Asuma become S-rank? And the mental argument has plenty to do with this. We saw, not only with several Edo summons freeing themselves through mental effort (thus the need to block out their personalities) but saw the control of the Edo Tensei overridden by a Sharingan genjutsu.
Spare me your speculations. Show you what the main issue? I'm not the one claiming anything in case you can't tell.Quote:
Okay then, they know basic fucking techniques. I still don't see how that ties to the main point. It's a horrible example in the first place because you used it in a ridiculous way. Just cause they have a few similar techniques, doesn't mean they have to fight in the same way. And that doesn't negate the fact that techniques do affect your style.Quote:
Spare me your speculations once again. Never? It was stated across the entire series. Can you link me where this nonsense came from? I want something that says people can create clones infinitely. And you know what's funny? Is that even if you're right and that one can create infinite amount of clones, then it still doesn't show how long can Sarutobi last. It's not a normal Kage Bunshin, otherwise, it's not gonna be called Kakashi's version. He clearly said it's a bluff, meaning that they aren't meant for fighting. If they were normal Kage bunshins, then they wouldn't be a bluff anymore.Quote:
Again with your speculation. I don't care if you see a reason or not, it's still your speculation. Not the plans you want him to use. They don't involve Orochimaru. It was a battle, I'm afraid. Because the seals you want him to use are different. The only ridiculous thing here is your attempt at running away by saying "Seal" without mentioning what seal.Quote:
You stated that when he covers it, it STILL uses chakra. That's not obvious for shit. You're evading everything. Otherwise, you wouldn't talk about CS when it has nothing to do with Orochimaru taking other people's bodies.Quote:
And based on what was said, it's a Kage level battle. So keep this "Chuunin\ low Jounin" crap to yourself. These examples (like everything else you post) has nothing to do with the topic. So if Hashirama throws a Kunai, then he's at Shikamaru level? Another weird link. I said show me where was it stated that perfecting it meant more summons, and you link me something that has nothing to do with anything (like everything you post). As long as Hidan is an S-rank Ninja, and Asuma could match him, it's an S-rank battle. Which is all your speculation (which are based on your fantasy alone), so I don't see why I should bother with it.Quote:
Simple. You said we had an entire showcase of ways to deal with Edos. I said they weren't' available for Hiruzen. You said that as long as he knows every Jutsu in Konoha, then he should know them. Thus, you stated that all the ways we saw to deal with Edos, are from Konoha.Quote:
I'm gonna pretend the bold part doesn't exist. Please, understand the original argument, then look back at this bold part, and realize how stupid it is. I'm seriously feeling trolled here. Once again, you try to evade the points you can't answer to. I'm gonna say it again, non of these links (aside from Iruka's), even speak of him being the strongest Hokage in his elderly state. Still waiting for this.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; September 27, 2013 at 09:05 AM.
What are you guys arguing about?
Any of them related to concept of genius?
Anyway, I'll bite.
Not necessarily a fact until proven otherwise or can't be contradicted or makes sense.Quote:
It does have a lot to do with fighting styles, but not everything.Quote:
It does, does it not? It splits the chakra between the original and bunshin in half.Quote:
At the time, it wouldn't have. If Kishi held true to Part I and II though, it would have, but Hiruzen might not have known it. Actually, who else knew there was another way to free the Edo Tensei? As for sealin them so they can't do anything... Hiruzen didn't have the tools to bind the two hokage and put a seal on them, did he?Quote:
Why would anyone claim this, especially when the manga has stated that Sharingan always drains chakra no matter who has it, whether the Uchiha or non-Uchiha? That'd be enough for me to not take the person seriously again. I'm not sure who said this, though.Quote:
Again, depends on how you look at it. No doubt by today's standards, it's a genin-level battle. But back then, it'd have been a kage-level battle easily, especially considering it was a kage against two former undead kage and a very powerful ninja.Quote:
Huh? I don't think Orochimaru's chakra did much, but it did play a big part in Kabuto bein able to control the Edo Tensei so well. Orochimaru's powerful chakra boosted Kabuto's power, if I recall.Quote:
Not necessarily, it really depends on how they're doing it. If Konohamaru keeps up with Naruto and even beats him, it doesn't necessarily mean he's on the same level of power. It could just as well mean Naruto went easy or just let Konohamaru hit him to see how strong he is.Quote:
He was called the strongest hokage...
Half of chakra is still a lot of chakra, as far as I know.
I don't remember that. I know Kabuto said Orochimaru's chakra was powerful and that it wanted to overpower him and gain control, but that was back when Hinata, Yamato, and Naruto met Kabuto during Itachi vs. Sasuke. Then durin the war, I only recall him mentioning how Orochimaru's cells increased his power and control over Edo Tensei.
But did Hiruzen have any way to immobilize the Edo Tensei? It was luck that they found out a way to get rid of the Edo Tensei for good was to make it achieve peace. Plus, it usually took the combination of two shinobi to bind and immobilize the Edo Tensei with the seal. Hiruzen did well with what he was given.
Half of a little would be a little. Hardly a tremendous amount.
Yeah, Kabuto said it during the war.
There was the Five Element Seal, Swamp of the Underworld, Demonic Illusion: Tree Binding Death, Temporary Paralysis technique, or the Dropping Lid technique that were available. And that's not even factoring in the possible unknown techniques that could have been created and used. He did do good back then, but currently he could have did much better with less hassle.