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Thread: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    I found this on another forum. The author just sound like myself, and his theory goes in the same direction as my "Naruto is getting Closer to Rikudo" theories. Please read and enjoy.
    Is Naruto Reading Obito's mind different from Ino's father, and/or Pain?

    Let see. Pain's path place his hand on Shizune, and in a few second got intel out of here. Ino father also place his hand on the dead body and got some intels.

    Question: How do they do all these?

    Well, to see that, notice that when Pain read Shizune, Ino and her Father were amazed as to how fast he did what they needed a lot of time to do. Could it be that they were doing the same thing slowly? My opinion is that all of them are using chakra to invade the mind of their target. The reason is that chakra is the unique medium for everything in the Narutoverse. Even genjutsu confuse chakra network, etc. Thus, I think that to read someone mind a la Ino or Pain, you place your hand on their head to connect to their chakra network.

    Consequently, I think Naruto is doing the same thing with Obito. To see this, let show that there were two level of connection between Naruto and Obito.

    2.1 Volontary communication

    As soon as Naruto and Obito connected their chakra, Naruto could connect to Obito and talk to him. The fact that Obito answer him means that both of them can see a certain level of intel from each other. This is the voluntary communication layer. In this one, none of the shinobis is hiding any intels and what they are thinking is not protected. Thus, it can flow in their chakra as Kyuubi said to Naruto. Here are some panel.

    Naruto starts to see Obito's memories
    Spoiler show


    Kyuubi gives the explanation: memories flaw through chakra connection
    Spoiler show


    As you can see, what I will call the unprotected memories flows as soon as there is chakra connection. However, it seems that only some skillful people can read these memories. Ino could read Naruto's and transfer it to others as well. Now, Naruto can read these latent memories. Can anyone else read it without the target authorization? Let see in the following. Here are some more example of fresh or latent or unprotected memories flow.

    Obito making parallelism between him and naruto in the battle - dreaming memories

    Spoiler show


    Spoiler show


    Spoiler show


    Naruto saying that he can see the dream
    Spoiler show




    2.2. Force reading of the mind: Pain, Yamanaka, and Naruto.

    I will start this part with some panels.
    Here are some more example of fresh or latent or unprotected memories flow.

    (a)Obito making parallelism between him and naruto in the battle - dreaming memories

    Spoiler show


    Spoiler show


    (b) Obito Ask Naruto not to come inside him (basically his mind)
    Spoiler show


    (c) Naruto saying that he can see the dream
    Spoiler show


    As you can see, in (a) Obito upon seeing Naruto and his friend started to dream about his secret desires to become Hokage. At this point, just like before the dream, Naruto can see his dream. This is proven by Naruto's statement in (c). On the other hand, Obito's statement in (b) proves that Obito did not know that Naruto was already reading his memories. The reason is that Naruto was already inside Obito's mind the minute they connected. Thus, in my understanding, Naruto was reading Obito's memory by Obito did not know. Obito could not read Naruto's memory, and Obito could not detect Naruto's presence. From this, I think chakra connection is not enough for both party to see each others memories. Each party has to breach some barrier, and/or both of them have to lift their protective barrier. Here, we can see that there are levels of reading the mind, which suggest that it is difficult to read some parts than others.

    Non latent memory need to be discovered in order to be read. They are represented as archives in scrolls
    Spoiler show


    There are many levels of skill in mind reading a la yamanka clan: Inoichi is praised here.
    Spoiler show


    Ino declared here that her father's technique is being used by Pain at fast speed
    Spoiler show


    Memory can be protected in Narutoverse by safeguard
    Spoiler show


    All these leads to this conclusion:

    Only skillful people can read memory, and there are level of proficiency. Memory can be protect in such a way that it is impossible to read. Also, so far, we have seen that Obito was unaware of Naruto while Naruto was already reading all his memory.


    Thus, in my opinion, Obito's statement in (b) showed that Naruto forced his way in his mind to see other things. Now, this is another question:


    Did Obito read Naruto's memory? Could it be that Naruto decided to show Obito is own mind?



    My answer is that Naruto was the mastermind of everything. Obito could not read Naruto's mind. It was Naruto's own choice to talk to Obito by letting part of his mind reach him.

    In fact, if we go deeper, it will appear that Obito was under something like a genjutsu. It was almost as if after entering Obito's mind, Naruto jacked his mind to the point that he lost connection with reality. Why do I think this:


    (i) Naruto was still fighting thug war in the real world
    (ii) Only very specific memory of Naruto were available to Obito to make him change his goal
    (ii) The end of Obito showed that Obito did not know he was loosing the Bijus.


    Obito surprised: "Did I ... lose?"
    Spoiler show



    Conclusion

    From my analysis, it is clear that Naruto is doing the same mind reading as the Yamanka clan and the Pain path. While Naruto can read any memory of Obito that shows up even against Obito's will. While it could be argue that only Obito was the concern, I think that Obito (if he could) should have read Naruto's mind to weaken him as well. From Obito's last statement, we can even say that after Naruto breach his mind, he lost contact with the real world, thus weakening him and letting the SA take the Bijus. Naruto's final statement about how they pull out the Bijus show also that his main concern was to weaken Obito in order to take the Bijus.

    My final view of this is that Naruto is still evolving. Just like Rikudo, Naruto has been portrayed as someone who learn by trying and feeling. he can understand chakra by touching jutsus. In fact, the change in Naruto occurred when he opened Kyuubi's seal and merge with him. Since then, Naruto has been performing techniques that he did not learn before, and I think he is understanding and creating ninjutsus just as Rikudo did. Whether this is due to having tailed beast chakra or not is not my concern, but the facts are the facts. I can say that Naruto will awaken the Rinnegan not far from now, maybe after he witness Madara killing Obito ruthlessly (LOL).


    I hope you enjoy this.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Gooooodamn, that was a long post. But I thoroughly enjoyed it and understood it. I don't think anyone digs that deep enough to understand Naruto's character, specially when they have time only to bash the manga, but this should clear some things up for the open-minded.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Sasuke and Naruto explained this sometime ago. When two top tier nin clash, they are able to read each others thoughts. No doubt, their relationship prior to the fight will determine how much you can glean while trading blows. Not to mention they are both connected to 'biju telecommunications', so this should be easy.
    Last edited by Dutchy; November 08, 2013 at 08:05 AM.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchy View Post
    Sasuke and Naruto explained this sometime ago. When two top tier nin clash, they are able to read each others thoughts. No doubt, their relationship prior to the fight will determine how much you can glean while trading blows. Not to mention they are both connected to 'biju telecommunications', so this should be easy.
    Reading each other's heart is not the same as intruding the mind of only one person. Go and check all the chapter in which Naruto and Obito interacted. You will notice that things are not shown as flashback or as naruto and Sasuke were flotting when eating on another. Rather, Naruto entered Obito's mind, and the mind was shown as a living world in which Naruto can see all Obito's thoughts in an animated version.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Naruto has not uncovered the secret of ninjutsu. Nothing indicates that, even if he is intruding Tobi's mind. How is he doing that in the first place?
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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Naruto has not uncovered the secret of ninjutsu. Nothing indicates that, even if he is intruding Tobi's mind. How is he doing that in the first place?
    Is that not the question or atleast the point of this thread?
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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    I dunno, I thought he was using that as an example that Naruto might have uncovered the secret of ninjutsu. Is there even any?
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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    no they are merely exchanging feelings and understandings--which is a sign of a pro shinobi. It's the same as when naruto had skirmish with sasuke when sakura was almost stabbed. So you're theory is not salient.


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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzouismadara View Post
    no they are merely exchanging feelings and understandings--which is a sign of a pro shinobi. It's the same as when naruto had skirmish with sasuke when sakura was almost stabbed. So you're theory is not salient.
    I don't know why the level of denial is so great when a question or feat related to Naruto is being discussed. When two Shinobi are reading each other's heart, there is no one-sided intrusion in the mind of only one of them. In Naruto vs Sasuke, they read their heart during the fight, not because they connected their chakra. In fact, the type of reading each other's mind with chakra connection is not new. When Naruto took Kyuubi's chakra, he could communicate with Bee by connecting their chakra. Back then, we use to call it fist bump. Now, Naruto has taken it to higher level. Besides, anyone denying the facts should ask themselves why Sasuke is not also reading Obito's heart. I thought that Sasuke was the one holding Susanoo's sword. Well, he was, but he cannot connect his chakra to anyone as for now it seems. For manga fact, read the following page:

    Obito: Stop. Don't come inside me!+ Obito got surprised when Naruto told him that he wanted to be Hokage.


    So according to this page, Naruto and Obito were not merely reading each other's heart. Rather, Naruto got inside Obito. What does it mean to you guys?
    And if you read previous pages, Naruto went from seeing Obito's past to seeing Obito's dreams. This look like Naruto basically seeing every detail in Obito's memory even when Obito refuse to let him enter his mind. You can see there is a huge difference between this, and what happen when two shin obi clash.

    When two shinobis clash, what is shown is related to the present, an analysis of their different opinion and resolve. It is not a mere display of their pasts as Naruto was watching Obito's past. In fact, Obito was not telling a story to Naruto. Rather, Naruto was reading the story by force while Obito was still lying to himself thinking that Naruto does not know his hidden dreams. Well, I did not have to rant. The page above says it all - Naruto entered Obito's mind and read his life just as Pain could read Shizune's mind to get Naruto's whereabout.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    The flaw in your argument is that Naruto didn't "force" anything. Obito was already thinking about being Hokage and Rin before the clash finished. So the whole "analyzing the present" point would still apply here. Now if it wasn't for the fact that Obito was constantly being shown self-doubt and thinking about the very things Naruto saw, then you could possibly make that point. But Naruto isn't doing anything much different then has previously been shown between Jinchuurikis, like reading Minato's mind/feelings without Minato knowing he was.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    To answer the question being asked by the thread: no, he hasn't. For one thing, none of us know what "the secret of ninjutsu" is, so we wouldn't know what it looks like when someone else acquired it.

    Even more strangely, how is manipulating the inner visions of a person with a fragile mindstate considered par-for-the-course when it comes to knowing what all jutsu entails?

    Wouldn't mastery of shape manipulation come into play? How about elementalization? How about the redistribution of Yin and Yang? None of this was shown. All we saw was one ninja watching another ninja play their emotions on a projector while narrating the feelings he gleaned from them. I'm absolutely positive that the secret of all jutsu would be a lot more impressive than a low-scale Tsukuyomi.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The flaw in your argument is that Naruto didn't "force" anything. Obito was already thinking about being Hokage and Rin before the clash finished. So the whole "analyzing the present" point would still apply here. Now if it wasn't for the fact that Obito was constantly being shown self-doubt and thinking about the very things Naruto saw, then you could possibly make that point. But Naruto isn't doing anything much different then has previously been shown between Jinchuurikis, like reading Minato's mind/feelings without Minato knowing he was.
    Check the bolded part of your post. If Naruto is reading Minato's feelings without Minato knowing, how do you explain it? Oh wait, I know how you explained it - it is a jinchuriki thing. Then, why Minato did not know it?

    The problem is that most people use label rather than explanation of the facts. Before Naruto was met Bee, he did not know how to do this reading thing. IT was Bee who show him, and before that Bee could read Naruto's thoughts without Naruto knowing it. Thus, there is a technique there that need to be learn before you can use it.
    At this point, you could say it is a jinchuriki thing. However, Naruto is also doing the same thing with his teammate. He could know that Lee was doubting about using the Rasengan, and tell him to use it. He could call his friend without actually speaking. Thus, on top on Jicnhuriki communication, Naruto can also infuse someone with his chakra and read their mind through the connection. This is my first point here.

    The second point is explained in the page I posted previously. If you have good memory, the toad could not merge with Naruto because Kyuubi refused him to connect to Naruto's chakra. When Itachi tried to control Naruto with Genjutsu, Naruto was able to disturb the genjutsu, then Itachi had to force him by strengthening the Jutsu. Basically, Obito did not want Naruto to enter his mind, and he could not stop Naruto from entering it. In my opinion, for Naruto to enter Obito while Obito did not want him to, Naruto has to force his way in. This is logical reasoning. Besides, why is Naruto entering Obito's mind and not the other way around? Shouldn't Obito be the one doing that since he has Sharingan, Rinnegan, and Juubi?


    Third, I think there is one thing most of you are overlooking because it is Naruto. When two people are communicating, there is no intrusion of one of them in the other's mind. If an intrusion occurs, then it is a take over that can be seen as controlling the other. Basically, as long as Naruto was in Obito's mind, there is nothing Obito could do. At the end, we even saw that Obito was robbed of his Bijus without even doing anything. This is why some people talked about Genjutsu.

    Finally, no one has answered my questions: Why is Bee reading Obito's mind since their chakra are connected through Hachibi? Why is Sasuke not reading Obito's mind since they clashed? Why isn't Minato reading Obito's memory? Why is Naruto pulling the chakra and talking at the same time to Obito while Obito is doing nothing?
    Last edited by so6pww; November 12, 2013 at 09:23 AM.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But Naruto isn't doing anything much different then has previously been shown between Jinchuurikis, like reading Minato's mind/feelings without Minato knowing he was.
    Except that he's able to read everyone's mind and thoughts, as we've seen in the last couple of chapters.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    There can be many explanations as to why he can read Obito's mind. Him uncovering the secret of Ninjutsu and getting close to obtaining the Rinnegan is NOT one of them.

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    Re: Has Naruto Uncovered the Secret of Ninjutsu Just like Rikudo?

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Check the bolded part of your post. If Naruto is reading Minato's feelings without Minato knowing, how do you explain it? Oh wait, I know how you explained it - it is a jinchuriki thing. Then, why Minato did not know it?

    The problem is that most people use label rather than explanation of the facts. Before Naruto was met Bee, he did not know how to do this reading thing. IT was Bee who show him, and before that Bee could read Naruto's thoughts without Naruto knowing it. Thus, there is a technique there that need to be learn before you can use it.
    At this point, you could say it is a jinchuriki thing. However, Naruto is also doing the same thing with his teammate. He could know that Lee was doubting about using the Rasengan, and tell him to use it. He could call his friend without actually speaking. Thus, on top on Jicnhuriki communication, Naruto can also infuse someone with his chakra and read their mind through the connection. This is my first point here.

    The second point is explained in the page I posted previously. If you have good memory, the toad could not merge with Naruto because Kyuubi refused him to connect to Naruto's chakra. When Itachi tried to control Naruto with Genjutsu, Naruto was able to disturb the genjutsu, then Itachi had to force him by strengthening the Jutsu. Basically, Obito did not want Naruto to enter his mind, and he could not stop Naruto from entering it. In my opinion, for Naruto to enter Obito while Obito did not want him to, Naruto has to force his way in. This is logical reasoning. Besides, why is Naruto entering Obito's mind and not the other way around? Shouldn't Obito be the one doing that since he has Sharingan, Rinnegan, and Juubi?


    Third, I think there is one thing most of you are overlooking because it is Naruto. When two people are communicating, there is no intrusion of one of them in the other's mind. If an intrusion occurs, then it is a take over that can be seen as controlling the other. Basically, as long as Naruto was in Obito's mind, there is nothing Obito could do. At the end, we even saw that Obito was robbed of his Bijus without even doing anything. This is why some people talked about Genjutsu.

    Finally, no one has answered my questions: Why is Bee reading Obito's mind since their chakra are connected through Hachibi? Why is Sasuke not reading Obito's mind since they clashed? Why isn't Minato reading Obito's memory? Why is Naruto pulling the chakra and talking at the same time to Obito while Obito is doing nothing?
    First, assuming that because Minato was too busy feeling sorry for himself to notice Naruto feeling him that it means something makes no sense. By that reasoning, the same could be claimed of the Alliance after they saw all of Naruto's memories without his permission. Or when they saw Hashirama's.

    Secondly, no. The toad example has nothing to do with this situation. There was a clear physical reason as to why he couldn't connect, because the Kyuubi's chakra was poisonous at that time. And Itachi didn't have to strengthen anything. He was already in Naruto's mind, with the genjutsu already in motion. Trying to make it out as if mentally defeating Obito is some feat is ridiculous. Obito has the mentality of a child. Overcoming his will would not have been any sort of challenge.

    And thirdly, no, nothing is being overlooked since this is not the first time something like this has happen. We literally already seen it happen with Naruto's memories and Hashirama's memories about the first summit.

    As for your "question"? Because none of those other characters are connected like Naruto is to Obito. You seem to have forgotten the part where Naruto was able to pull out the other Bijuus because he had a potion of each of their chakra inside of him, which linked when they clashed. That (and the fact that he's the main character) is why it's Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    Except that he's able to read everyone's mind and thoughts, as we've seen in the last couple of chapters.
    Right, the last couple of chapters where everyone has been connected via the Kyuubi's chakra. It's the same as how the Alliance was all able to see Naruto's memories and such without him actively showing them. And how they saw the events of the first summit without Hashirama showing them. It's pretty much an expansion on the Kyuubi's hatred sensing.

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