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His unique character is good, but he doesn't have to act like he is retarded. If cross comparison is required, Urahara would be a good fit. Serious when required, fooling around otherwise. Hashirama has that same aura, as well.
Naruto displays many Austistic Savant characteristics.
So Thomas Edison would not be considered a genius to you? The man who was kicked out of school at the age of 12 for being "too dumb"? He was notoriously bad at maths, speaking and comprehension (I am guessing similar to Naruto in the way you describe him).
Einstein and Alexander Graham Bell were terrible at spelling and grammar.
In fact, a significant number of the so called geniuses of the modern age had to overcome learning disabilities to get where they were - perhaps this was what pushed them to great heights?
Ah well, I guess Edison is a bad example - as the guy was a douche and not anywhere near as good as Tesla - who was mad, believed in a laser eyed pigeon, was impossible to talk to, and died poor (albeit, in my mind, one of the greatest geniuses that had ever lived)...
Also, trying to attack me - stating, for example, that I do not actually read your posts, or that I am bad at summarization and understanding, is a poor method for making yourself look correct.
Last edited by zimbardo; February 14, 2013 at 11:05 PM.
And he apparently understood Sakura's advice since he did better. Which further confirms that Naruto's not as dumb as Kishi retcons him to be. \o/
Sasuke would have been the top, then, if it weren't for teamwork.
No because Naruto still had difficulty understanding Sage Mode and elemental manipulation, it had to be dumbed up so much.Quote:
Naruto was probably the first to know what really happened between Hachibi and the Third Raikage, though. Even his son didn't know what happened. You can't use that. And that method, if I recall, was suggested by Kakashi in joke. If Naruto was a genius, he wouldn't need a bunshin to make rasengan. Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Minato are all able to do rasengan with one hand, and Minato created a big rasengan pretty quickly in an instant.
Maybe so, but without the Kyuubi he wouldn't win most of his fights.
I doubt his chakra control is that good, though.
Look at what they've done, though. Naruto hasn't done anythin of that sort, other than make FRS, a one-shot kill jutsu that he said was to beat Sasuke. I don't think Naruto had a learning disability, but he probably formed a bad habit that stuck with him for life.Quote:
Difference in opinions.Quote:
And o, I'm not attacking you. If I wanted to, I wouldn't point out what I observed.
You attacked me by saying I was desperately trying to make Naruto look to be a moronic failure. And if you did read my posts (not talkin about posts in this thread), then you'd see that I've defended Naruto whenever he's been accused of being moronic. I think I've argued with Delbi that Naruto's not as moronic as made out to be? I forgot. Hell, I even tell Uchiha_Blood that I refuse to take Naruto's fuckup against Nagato as manga fact because Naruto would not really make a mistake like that.Quote:
And I said he achieved what he did through hard work. Your summarization is making me look like I'm attacking Naruto, which I'm not. All I'm stating is that he's not a genius, which the manga has established.
Sasuke was first in all pratical parts and last in teamwork, Ino was second in all pratical parts and first in teamwork if I recall right
So because he doesn't understand something theorically ( which is, again, the author's idea of a funny joke ) he's untalented.Quote:
Ask every One Piece fan if Luffy is untalented because he's stupid
I can, because no one else even try to come up with that.
And A is hardly more intelligent than Naruto, I'd say he's actually way dumber and Kakashi didn't suggest that method, Naruto said that fusing an element into the Rasengan was like to see left and right at the same time, and Kakashi came up with a joke.
Its all Naruto afterwards
So because he uses a clone he's not a genius.
Finding a way around issues is actually proof of being pretty smart, the end result is that Naruto's usage of Rasengan basically shits on Yondaime and Kakashi's
So? That's true for everyone
He can tune his chakra to match with everyone's, its something even Kyuubi couldn't do it
By feats, that's the most incredible chakra control of the entire manga. Add to it such a control to perfectly mold nature energy to enter Sage Mode, and Naruto is pretty much untouchable in this
Making a S+ rank ninjutsu all by himself is, theorically, impressive and something 99% of the ninjas of this manga can't even begin to imitateQuote:
You like taking everything characters say as manga fact, so here's one: Jiraiya said Naruto was untalented and sucked when he and Naruto first met. Thus, Naruto's not a genius.
Without Kakashi's joke, Naruto would not have discovered a way to combine element with shape manipulation. I don't see how Naruto's usage of rasengan shits on Minato, considering Minato can use rasengan with one hand and used a bigger rasengan on Tobi than Naruto's ever done.
How is A dumber, though?
Naruto's so-called awesome chakra control still prevents him from doing a rasengan with one hand or without a clone. If Kakashi or Minato were able to use FRS, they'd probably not need a clone. Naruto does because he sucks at concentration.
He had somethin to base it on. Minato had nothing to base his rasengan on, and Kakashi had nothing to base his chidori on. Naruto was able to make an S rank jutsu because of hax method. Without clones, he'd probably still be struggling to manipulate his nature.
As for your "example", I can use Itachi and Kisame admitting inferiority to Jiraiya if you want to use Jiraiya's statement.
Both were proven untrue ( to a point ), so what to do?
Lol without Hiraishin/Rasengan Kakashi wouldn't have the base to create his Chidori
And Naruto shits on Yondaime with Rasengan because, while Yondaime has showed only one, Naruto showed no less than 10 variants, if not more
Without counting the fact he can do it with one hand ( he showed as much, and in chakra mode he doesn't need clones ), how that indicates he's stupid? Because he does something he's comfortable with and that presents no drawbacks whatsoever?
That goes even for supposed geniuses like Sasuke, or every Sharingan-clad ninjas who don't go by the name of Madara or Itachi
Same for those with a Gekkei Kenkai.
Naruto's method is his own, just like the ones I listed above, doesn't mean his is worse only because he's Naruto
I think I understand what concept you use to define a genius.
Basically a genius is someone cool, who does things the cool way, because otherwise, as I showed you, by your standards Naruto would be a genius as well
Itachi and Kisame's statements were fully proven to be untrue, though. Jiraiya's statement about Naruto isn't valid, honestly, because he was frustrated and talking about Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra, which Naruto had no experience with. That alone wouldn't make Naruto talentless.
Nor is he untalented. Untalented would be someone like... I dunno, but Naruto has shown he's good at combat, if not good at being a shinobi.
Rasengan or Hiraishin wasn't the base for chidori. Chidori was created BECAUSE Kakashi couldn't add his element to rasengan. And if I recall, Kakashi said the inspiration for chidori came from Minato's nickname.Quote:
no he doesn't. Minato could hit Naruto or Tobi with the rasengan any time he wanted, but Naruto would either have to prepare rasengan beforehand or be in a situation where he can successfully hit rasengan (Deva not moving because he didn't expect Naruto to come that fast or trapping Kabuto). Naruto's variants mainly come from Kyuubi Mode or Sage Mode.
He did it once throughout the entire manga and admitted he had extreme difficulty doing it with one hand. Indicates he's not a GENIUS because he can't concentrate well enough to do it one hand.Quote:
Doesn't make him dumb. And as seen throughout the manga, he's not dumb. My argument isn't that he's an idiot, it's that he's not a genius. He can be smart without being a genius. If we agree on this, then why are we arguing?
Sasuke isn't supposed, he is a genius. Look at what he achieved and what he showed during the bell training. So far, Itachi and Sasuke have been said to be geniuses. I don't recall even Madara getting that kind of praise, but that's probably due to different era.Quote:
Gekkei kenkai still needs to be mastered, as well as the shinobi. If Sasuke didn't work on his speed, then he'd have been killed by Raikage even if he had EMS. If Neji wasn't smart or a genius, he wouldn't have learned the main branch's techniques on his own.
Naruto's method of using kage bunshin for rasengan comes because he can't do it with one hand and follow up successfully. With a kage bunshin, he can focus on the enemy as well, rather than just on rasengan.
If that was my concept of what a genius is, then I'd consider Jiraiya a genius and say Sasuke wasn't a genius. Genius has nothing to do with cool.Quote:
Naruto has some great feats he's accomplished but his understanding of these feats is minimal at best, and he himself isn't intelligent in the realms of ninjutsu, the thing he excels at most. In fact, he failed to understand how Kage Bushin's truly worked despite using them for 3 plus years until Kakashi informed him.
'Genius' is an inherently elitist title, if you do not belong to that exclusive group by merit, then you are not a genius. People tend to bring down the requirements for someone to qualify as a genius so that their favorite character can be called a 'genius', even if that character is far from being one. That's like bringing down the requirement of getting an "A" grade for your final exam from 90% to 70% so that you can get an "A" with a score of 71%.
I have observed that those who are fiercely competitive, brilliant and perhaps more elitist in real life to like characters such as Sasuke and Orochimaru because such characters better represent themselves as people who always come up on top. On the other hand, those who are average or below average tend to hate the "genius" characters because such characters remind them of the arrogant bastards in real life who always manage to outcompete the former - from getting better grades in school, winning a game, to getting a girl/boy friend. And because there are more average people than successful people in real life, the outcome is that more people in general like goofy characters such as Jiraiya (who is clearly not a genius by the way).
^ I don't really like Sasuke but I like both Orochimaru and Jiraiya, what makes me?
What you wrote would mean that a good 60% of manga readers are successfull guys since they like bad guys that are usually cool, aloof, talented people
It still doesn't change the fact that he, at 16, did things geniuses like Yondaime and Kakashi couldn't do, KB training and FRS and he did despite having a handicap ( Kyuubi screwing his chakra control + his chakra leaking ).
Everyone has a master in this manga, 'cept Rikudou
And Naruto's variants are still devised by him, they don't come up automatically with Kyuubi Mode or Sage Mode, otherwise Kabuto would've used a Rasengan by now
-Did so during the VOTE fightQuote:
-Did so when he blitzed Asura Realm
-Did so when he was in Bijuu mode
Part 1 Sasuke was, Part 2 Sasuke is Naruto's counterpart ( I know I'm gonna receive a lot of hate, but I'm gonna explain myself ):Quote:
-Sasuke is intelligent, Naruto is smart
-Sasuke excels in Nature manipulation, Naruto excels in Shape manipulation
-Sasuke has the better Eyes, Naruto has the better Body
-Sasuke can suppress Kyuubi's chakra thanks to the Sharingan, Naruto can thanks to his unique body
-Both are fast, both are deadly in Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, Sasuke excels in Genjutsu, Naruto in strenght
Also you said Gekkei Kenkai need to be mastered, true, but that applies to Naruto as well, to all characters actually
Difference is, uber talented fellows like Itachi have that something that others don't have.
I'm talking about an objective definition of cool, Jiraiya is subjectively cool ( people who hate the stereotype of the pervert guy that is secretely awesome probably loathe Jiriaya ).Quote:
One would think Sasuke's wire thingy he used against Orochimaru in the Forest was way cooler than Naruto shoving a kunai up Gaara's butt, who do you think is the talented one of the two? And yet the end results are way different
without kakashi sasuke don t have lighting... "Sasuke excels in Genjutsu" sasuke use weak genjutsu once in manga
No other jutsu creation that we've learned of needed so much help to be completed.
Again did he do something highly difficult? Yes. But that doesn't make him a genius just because he created FRS, far from it. Nothing he did made us say "wow he's smart". No, he worked his ass off for what would have been 30-40 years in real time to complete a jutsu with help. That is not a feat of genius.
A feat of genius would be Neji learning all of his clans techniques despite never being taught them. That is true genius.
---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------
And yes, Sasuke was shown he had the lightning element by Kakashi, and he learned that elemental manipulation along with extreme speed and taijutsu in a months time when he was 13.
Naruto needed years of combined training to learn his element when he was 16. There is a difference, a big difference in the help they both needed and the age at which the accomplished what they did.
---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 PM ----------
2. Saying he excels in shape manipulation is debatable considering the only jutsu he uses that deals with it is Rasengan and all of it's variants, and without his KB Mode he still can't do it one handed.
3. Naruto has more stamina. Sasuke has proven to be naturally faster than him though, so saying he has a better body overall is another debatable topic.
4. Naruto can suppress the Kyuubi thanks to a seal, not thanks to his body. His body can simply handle it's chakra
5. Sasuke is faster than Naruto unless Naruto uses a jutsu to increase his speed also Naruto is no more physically strong than Sasuke when not using jutsu. Taijutsu they are the same, and ninjutsu is debatable.
Not sure where you are getting these ideas lol.
Naruto has always been the more durable and stamina filled character, he's never been able to out manuver Sasuke but instead always tried to overwhelm him or overpower him with jutsu. As base ninja, without any power ups what so ever, the only physical trait Naruto would have over Sasuke is his durability and stamina. Their strength is equal, and Sasuke is faster than him.
As I said pretty much everybody is taught by someone else, and FRS was developed by Naruto alone, as Kakashi said himself he helped with the method ( how do we know that Kakashi didn't learn it from a book or from somebody else ? ), after which it was all Naruto, considering also Kakashi isn't a Wind type.
Matters of opinions, I guess
As above, I find developing a S rank jutsu and completing by himself is more impressive ( expecially considering how he kept improving/creating other types of Rasengan )
1. Naruto, in more than 20 fights, was outsmarted twice, counting the Nagato farce, the majority of times he outsmarted the opponent.Quote:
Naruto may be dumb outside battles, but in battles he is not or rather, not always.
2. Just pointed out to M3J how he did so against Asura Realm without using a Kage Bushin and Sasuke's Nature manipulations are also Chidori variants. But making variants doesn't mean they are any less impressive, every variant Naruto and Sasuke created are at least A ranked, as in Jounin + jutsus.
3. Early Part 2 logic, Naruto kept up with Deva Path in base while Sasuke was faster than Deidara, and his shunshin to save Sakura was incredibly fast as well
By feats, in base they are equals without a doubt
4. Reread Yamato's comment and how Naruto's chakra naturally suppressed Kyuubi's to prevent it from harming his body
5. Sasuke uses shunshin to move fast as well both uses jutsu, both have showed to be fast. Ninjutsu is not debatable, both are masters in it without a doubt, they have the greatest amount of high-ranked jutsus except Kakashi
If you have a nuke, would you use a bow?
Naruto's advantage over 99,9% of the other shinobis is his immense chakra and stamina, of course he would try to overpower his enemy, its the logical thing to do imo
So? They're the same shit. It's 4 rasengan or 594859 or whatnot, with him using the chakra arm to pull people in or to make the arms longer so someone gets hit. It doesn't make him a genius.
VotE was when he was in Kyuubi mode.Quote:
not sure with Asura, but if that's the case then why'd he need to use bunshins later on? Like, not a chapter or two after the blitz?
Bijuu mode doesn't count as he has chakra arms to help him, although it makes no sense as Naruto himself said he had trouble concentrating.
Naruto isn't smart. Not like that anyway. He barely understood any explanation for anything.Quote:
Sasuke also excels in shape manipulation. Look at the chidori variants. Sasuke excels in both department. Naruto at best excels in shape manipulation.
Not sure if Sasuke can suppress Kyuubi's chakra, considering Naruto wasn't even tryin to use it. And it's more like Naruto's UZUMAKI chakra. Kushina and Mito handled the full power of the Kyuubi while Naruto handles half of its power.
Naruto in strength? What?
People like Naruto and Rock Lee are usually much more durable since they have to work harder.Quote:
Genius? intellect? Talent? Smarts? Ability to pick up things quickly? Wisdom? Alcohol?
There is no objective definition of cool, though. You could think a guy who shows his privates in public is cool, while I'd be repulsed by it. Everything is subjective.Quote:
How so? Orochimaru was a genius with experience and near immortality. He still managed to praise Sasuke while Gaara was barely affected.
In terms of being a genius or not, Sasuke did add a lot of his own stuff to the lightning's edge Kakashi taught him. Power is one thing, but using it suitably depending on the situation is another matter, and Sasuke has displayed both his lightning's edge and his genjutsu in a brilliant manner (eg. fight with Deidara and fight with Danzou respecively.)
Goes without saying, his taijutsu clearly shows that he's thinking well ahead when executing his attacks (eg. vs Kakshi for the bell at the beginning.)