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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #1336
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    No, that doesn't make them facts. If that was the case, then it would be a "fact" that Tobi is Madara, something that was stated by Kishi several times. Or that Susanoo is "awoken by having Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi". Or that the Bijuu's are "natural disasters". The fact is that Kishi has said quite a bit of stuff that has turnt out not true or been changed. That's why you can't rely completely on the hype.
    Yes it does. Tobi is a mystery, so it's an entirely different case. Don't know what is there to invalidate the thing about Susano'o. Bijuus can also count as a mystery. Just cause he changed somethings, doesn't mean you have the right to claim what is wrong or right. He retconned something, okay fine. Not whatever you want is a retcon though.

    Quote Quote:
    It matters completely because it's those techniques that cause the tiring. It's not the same at all, because as mentioned, Sarutobi's stamina was tied directly to his old age. The only two things in the series stated to affect stamina was old age and sickness. So please tell me what I'm "overlooking".
    No, it doesn't. You overlook them being two completely different humans, who fight with a completely different fighting style, and use completely different techniques. And Sarutobi's stamina hasn't jackshit to do with his power in his prime, nor was it stated that his weakness is due to the lack of stamina, nor did we see how long he can fight.

    Quote Quote:
    And how does having a different battle style affect stamina? There has been nothing in the series stating such a thing. And that's a horrible example, since it was specifically mentioned why Tobirama could only make two, due to keeping the barrier up.
    I'd expect you to refrain from such stupid statements (no offense). Techniques require different amount of chakra, thus affect stamina differently. Fighting style thus, makes all the difference. Though I don't even see the point, as we don't know how long can Sarutobi last. That was Hashirama, not Tobirama. And even if he can use more, he's in his prime. Don't talk about horrible examples, you using Kage Bunshin as a demonstration of his stamina is as horrible example as they can get.

    Quote Quote:
    You asked how do we know they would work, and I gave you the answer, the current arc. It has repeatedly showed that the bodies of an Edo summon is just like a real body. They can bleed, they can be poisoned by breathing, they can be caught in genjutsus. They aren't immune to anything. It has nothing to do with what I think. You can't argue that he couldn't do something for fear of Orochimaru stopping him, because that logic would have applied to any action he took. By that reasoning, he shouldn't have been able to use the Dead Demon Seal, because Orochimaru was there. It just doesn't work. If Orochimaru didn't interfere when Sarutobi announced his intentions to use the Dead Demon Seal, then there is no reason to believe that Orochimaru would interfere had Sarutobi used something else, or to believe that Sarutobi was limited due to fear of Orochimaru stopping his plan.

    The Sharingan is still active even when covered. The entire point is that a transferred Sharingan can't deactivate, it's always on and drawing chakra. Covering merely lowers the drain. And Kakuzu's technique is constantly active, else his body wouldn't constantly be the way it is. It would go back to being a normal human body. And as pointed out, a portion of chakra was shown to be used to keep the other souls held down.
    I asked how do you know the seals you mentioned would work, not how ordinary attacks fair against Edos. It's all about what you think actually. The DDS was meant for Orochimaru too, so this argument doesn't live very long. Again, not my problem what you think of the battle. A battle is a battle, and you want him to let his guard down and do what YOU want him to do.

    Please, link this to me. How can he remain alive if it's constantly draining chakra? This was never said about Kakuzu's body. His body was modified, and there's no returning it back to normal, and again, he wouldn't be alive if it's constantly using chakra. In Sasuke's case, in the cursed seal's case. Not Orochimaru's case.

    Quote Quote:
    We were told they were lacking their actual power and that battle was nothing like any S-rank battle. We saw the mental control in the situation with Itachi, where the Edo summon control was broken with a genjutsu. Not to mention the several times we saw the elimination of minds to improve the user's control. And there was no reason why he couldn't make another. There was no limitation given on the amount during that situation. I did give you several options of seals known in Konoha.
    We weren't told by how much were they weaker. It can't possibly be anything below 60% percent, since Orochimaru was stated to have perfected the technique. It was more impressive than the battle with Hidan. Itachi's case has nothing to do with this. That's not up for you to decide. Look, I'm not gonna sit here and watch your attempts at avoiding any points you can't answer. You said, "we had an entire showcase of seals to stop Edo's in the current war arc." I want you, to list me these Konoha seals that were used to stop Edo's in THIS war arc. What you listed was : Five Elements seal (no fucking clue where in the war arc was this used against an Edo), Contract seal (same as before), and FVFF (as we're talking about up there). So quit your attempts at running and list me Konoha seals that were used in this arc to seal Edos.

    Quote Quote:
    Iruka's, Gai and Kakashi's, Orochimaru's, and Kabuto's statement. No, I'm not only assuming that. That's the only limitation mentioned or shown. If you would like to show where another limitation was mentioned, then by all means, please do. And it is negated. If Hashirama is the strongest shinobi, then Sarutobi can't be stronger then him.
    Are you purposely acting like that (don't want to call you names)? Are you trolling me for some reason? I'm serious, your whole arguments are just evasive and pretending you don't remember or something like that. You said "He was proclaimed the strongest Hokage, even in his elderly state." Where in these links was that said? Iruka said "WAS" and Sarutobi called him for using past tense. Kakashi and Guy didn't say anything about him being the strongest in his old state. Orochimaru didn't either. And Kabuto didn't say anything about prime, old or even the Hokages in general. He simply said that the Hokage is the strongest among the Five Kages.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 23, 2013 at 05:09 AM.

  2. #1337
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Oh please, that the ET can be sealed in so many ways is a clear retcon to allow so many characters to perform those sealings in so many ways.

    Isn't stamina half of what is needed to perform a jutsu? Old bones and joints play an important role to the majority of old people, Onoki being able to avoid that handicap for the biggest part due to light weight an flyng jutsu creates a whole different combat situation for Sarutobi. I don't even know how you[RK] can keep arguing against that so much, it's like you don't apply anything from biology and real life experiences into your judgement.

    His preference to use taijutsu combined with his monkey staff imply that he has to rely on his body often, while Onoki can just spamannihilator beams until he is out of chakra.
    Last edited by Schabrak; September 25, 2013 at 01:32 AM.
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Just my pinion on the point why didn't sarutobi used any other seal instead of reaper God.

    Almost All the Edo Tenseis who were sealed in recent chapters were handicapped after taking a powerful attack plus their (ETs) weaknesses were already known.
    In case of Sarutobi he had to deal enough damage to both ETs at the same time while making sure the Oro won't be able to interfere with his sealing was a near impossible feat. SO he took the method about which he was sure that will work.
    And i guess he didn't knew MUCH about Edo Tensei as well.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yes it does. Tobi is a mystery, so it's an entirely different case. Don't know what is there to invalidate the thing about Susano'o. Bijuus can also count as a mystery. Just cause he changed somethings, doesn't mean you have the right to claim what is wrong or right. He retconned something, okay fine. Not whatever you want is a retcon though..
    Kishi stated in the third databook and second fanbook that Tobi was Madara, and that's in addition to the numerous times within the manga. Madara has shown neither Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, and the "implication" with Sasuke is that he has a different genjutsu, along with his second eye's ability being Enton manipulation. And the Bijuu's weren't a "mystery". The point remains that just because something was stated doesn't make it a fact. And the argument was that until something is proven, it can't be taken as true.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No, it doesn't. You overlook them being two completely different humans, who fight with a completely different fighting style, and use completely different techniques. And Sarutobi's stamina hasn't jackshit to do with his power in his prime, nor was it stated that his weakness is due to the lack of stamina, nor did we see how long he can fight..
    And what does any of that have to do with their stamina? None of those are factors in how much stamina someone has or how much is used, which is the issue. And the lack of stamina was directly commented on as the reason for his poor showing. I gave you this link earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'd expect you to refrain from such stupid statements (no offense). Techniques require different amount of chakra, thus affect stamina differently. Fighting style thus, makes all the difference. Though I don't even see the point, as we don't know how long can Sarutobi last. That was Hashirama, not Tobirama. And even if he can use more, he's in his prime. Don't talk about horrible examples, you using Kage Bunshin as a demonstration of his stamina is as horrible example as they can get..
    What techniques are used has nothing to do with battle style. Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya all have many of the same techniques, yet their fighting styles are completely different. Same can be applied to Sasuke and Itachi, or Kakashi and Obito. And that kind of argument really doesn't work in this situation, unless one could show that Sarutobi's techniques were more costly then anyone else's. And as said before, we saw how long he could last. Hashirama pointed out the reason for their limitation. How is it a horrible example? Kage Bunshin is the one technique without a set cost. One can make as many as one wants, regardless of how much stamina they actually have. That's what made it so dangerous. Thus the reason Kakashi, despite being noted for his low stamina, was still fully capable of creating more then a dozen.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I asked how do you know the seals you mentioned would work, not how ordinary attacks fair against Edos. It's all about what you think actually. The DDS was meant for Orochimaru too, so this argument doesn't live very long. Again, not my problem what you think of the battle. A battle is a battle, and you want him to let his guard down and do what YOU want him to do.

    Please, link this to me. How can he remain alive if it's constantly draining chakra? This was never said about Kakuzu's body. His body was modified, and there's no returning it back to normal, and again, he wouldn't be alive if it's constantly using chakra. In Sasuke's case, in the cursed seal's case. Not Orochimaru's case..
    If everything ese still affects an Edo summon like normal, then exactly what reason is there to believe any different in this situation. It's not about about what I think at all. Any plan to win used by Sarutobi would have been meant towards Orochimaru, is that's moot. We're not talking about "a battle", we're talking about one called "a Kage-level battle". So me another Kage-level battle that was so tame, and I'll retract my comment. And please tell me how sealing the Edo Hokages so he could focus on Orochimaru is "wanting him to let down his guard".

    Link what, it's obvious. If Kakashi could deactivate it, then there would be no need to cover it. And unless you're trying to argue that a person doesn't need lungs or organs or bones to live in the Narutoverse, how else do you think that Kakuzu is still alive with a body of nothing but a bunch of hearts and threads? The Cursed Seal contained Orochimaru's chakra/soul, as we saw with his recent resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    We weren't told by how much were they weaker. It can't possibly be anything below 60% percent, since Orochimaru was stated to have perfected the technique. It was more impressive than the battle with Hidan. Itachi's case has nothing to do with this. That's not up for you to decide. Look, I'm not gonna sit here and watch your attempts at avoiding any points you can't answer. You said, "we had an entire showcase of seals to stop Edo's in the current war arc." I want you, to list me these Konoha seals that were used to stop Edo's in THIS war arc. What you listed was : Five Elements seal (no fucking clue where in the war arc was this used against an Edo), Contract seal (same as before), and FVFF (as we're talking about up there). So quit your attempts at running and list me Konoha seals that were used in this arc to seal Edos..
    That doesn't matter when we're shown how weak they were. How can't it be? Perfecting the technique had nothing to do with their power, but the number that can be used. What S-rank battle was Hidan involved in? Itachi's case has plenty to do with this, what with him being an Edo summon who's control was broken without someone having to kill themselves.

    How am I avoiding a point I never claim? Please, show me where I said that. My claim was "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon." Link.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Are you purposely acting like that (don't want to call you names)? Are you trolling me for some reason? I'm serious, your whole arguments are just evasive and pretending you don't remember or something like that. You said "He was proclaimed the strongest Hokage, even in his elderly state." Where in these links was that said? Iruka said "WAS" and Sarutobi called him for using past tense. Kakashi and Guy didn't say anything about him being the strongest in his old state. Orochimaru didn't either. And Kabuto didn't say anything about prime, old or even the Hokages in general. He simply said that the Hokage is the strongest among the Five Kages.
    When have I been evasive or pretending not to remember? I said that "he was still proclaimed the strongest even in his elder state", you asked when and said you could only remember them talking about his prime. All the links show he wasn't merely being talked about in past tense when claimed as the strongest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Oh please, that the ET can be sealed in so many ways is a clear retcon to allow so many characters to perform those sealings in so many ways.

    Isn't stamina half of what is needed to perform a jutsu? Old bones and joints play an important role to the majority of old people, Onoki being able to avoid that handicap for the biggest part due to light weight an flyng jutsu creates a whole xifferent combat situation as for Sarutobi. I don't even know how you[RK] can keep arguing against that so much, it's like you don't apply anything from biology and real life experiences into your judgement.

    His preference to use taijutsu combined with his monkey staff imply that he has to rely on his body often, while Onoki can just spamannihilator beams until he is out of chakra.
    Never said it wasn't. The whole problem is that because of all the retcons, hype from the past can't really be taken as absolutes without actual proof.

    In this context, stamina and chakra are interchangeable. The databook holds them as the same, and it also has Sarutobi not suffering in the physical area of taijutsu. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Onoki wasn't the only one being used. I had also referred to both Chiyo and Danzo, both of which used taijutsu and relied upon physical movement. So regardless of whether you take stamina literally or general, the argument remains pretty much the same.

    In addition, shouldn't the person spamming techniques be the one to wear out faster? Not to mention, what implied preference? According to the hype, Sarutobi was a well-rounded fighter just as skilled in ninjutsu and genjutsu as taijutsu.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark blood View Post
    Just my pinion on the point why didn't sarutobi used any other seal instead of reaper God.

    Almost All the Edo Tenseis who were sealed in recent chapters were handicapped after taking a powerful attack plus their (ETs) weaknesses were already known.
    In case of Sarutobi he had to deal enough damage to both ETs at the same time while making sure the Oro won't be able to interfere with his sealing was a near impossible feat. SO he took the method about which he was sure that will work.
    And i guess he didn't knew MUCH about Edo Tensei as well.
    He used the Death God because they were turned into killing machines at that point. Use of regular seals hasn't shown to always work on ET Zombie's who are powerful/resourceful. Being the Tobirama turned out to be one of the greatest geniuses ever, and Hashirama is the baddest mother fucker in the valley, Sarturobi wasn't taking any chances.

    Even if he could have sealed them normally, he still had to kill Orochimaru. If he failed, then they would be unsealed and everyone would be fucked. If he succeeded, these two would have to be held under lock and key for eternity because only the summoner can unsummon them.

    Frankly, Sarturobi had little choice but to give up his life.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  7. #1341
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Kishi stated in the third databook and second fanbook that Tobi was Madara, and that's in addition to the numerous times within the manga. Madara has shown neither Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, and the "implication" with Sasuke is that he has a different genjutsu, along with his second eye's ability being Enton manipulation. And the Bijuu's weren't a "mystery". The point remains that just because something was stated doesn't make it a fact. And the argument was that until something is proven, it can't be taken as true.
    And once again, Tobi was a mystery. At that time, he WAS Madara. Madara not showing them doesn't mean he doesn't have them, as such, this can't be used as a proof of anything. Also, Sasuke's words suggested that both MS abilities need to be awaken, not necessarily Tsukuyomi and Amaterasue. And since the Databook was talking about Itachi's...yeah. The Bijuu's whole existence was a mystery until Tobi explained them. The point remains is, unless it's retconned, it remains a fact.

    Quote Quote:
    And what does any of that have to do with their stamina? None of those are factors in how much stamina someone has or how much is used, which is the issue. And the lack of stamina was directly commented on as the reason for his poor showing. I gave you this link earlier.
    Since this and the argument below are similar, I will talk about it below. The link doesn't show how long he can last, nor does it say that his stamina is the main issue. It simply states that his performance is different because of his low chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    What techniques are used has nothing to do with battle style. Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya all have many of the same techniques, yet their fighting styles are completely different. Same can be applied to Sasuke and Itachi, or Kakashi and Obito. And that kind of argument really doesn't work in this situation, unless one could show that Sarutobi's techniques were more costly then anyone else's. And as said before, we saw how long he could last. Hashirama pointed out the reason for their limitation. How is it a horrible example? Kage Bunshin is the one technique without a set cost. One can make as many as one wants, regardless of how much stamina they actually have. That's what made it so dangerous. Thus the reason Kakashi, despite being noted for his low stamina, was still fully capable of creating more then a dozen.
    Techniques have everything to do with fighting styles. The examples you gave, all have one Jutsu in common. So spare me another one of your horrible examples. Well if we're gonna go like that, then the argument doesn't work because we don't know how long Sarutobi can last in the first place. It's horrible example because it uses a tremendous amount of chakra. What you said about Kage Bunshin, was one of the most nonsensical things I've heard in my whole life. It made literally, no sense. So you're saying, that it costs no chakra at all, and one can make them infinitely? That's exactly what you said. And because they can make infinite amount, without draining any chakra, it's dangerous? What the fuck is that? Kakashi didn't use Kage Bunshin, it was a bluff as he stated in the page before.

    Quote Quote:
    If everything ese still affects an Edo summon like normal, then exactly what reason is there to believe any different in this situation. It's not about about what I think at all. Any plan to win used by Sarutobi would have been meant towards Orochimaru, is that's moot. We're not talking about "a battle", we're talking about one called "a Kage-level battle". So me another Kage-level battle that was so tame, and I'll retract my comment. And please tell me how sealing the Edo Hokages so he could focus on Orochimaru is "wanting him to let down his guard".
    So if ordinary attacks work, then random ass seals that serve entirely different purposes would also magically work? Please...just stop. Another weird statement. Elaborate if you well. Sasuke Vs Mei was rather tame. Because you want him to use imaginary seals in an imaginary scenario that would require his full attention while Orochimaru could be stabbing the shit out of him the whole time.

    Quote Quote:
    Link what, it's obvious. If Kakashi could deactivate it, then there would be no need to cover it. And unless you're trying to argue that a person doesn't need lungs or organs or bones to live in the Narutoverse, how else do you think that Kakuzu is still alive with a body of nothing but a bunch of hearts and threads? The Cursed Seal contained Orochimaru's chakra/soul, as we saw with his recent resurrection.
    No, it's not obvious. I want a link that says it's continuously drawing chakra even when it's covered. Oh I don't know, maybe the same way Sasori remained alive with nothing in his body. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Again, quit evading shit you can't answer to.

    Quote Quote:
    That doesn't matter when we're shown how weak they were. How can't it be? Perfecting the technique had nothing to do with their power, but the number that can be used. What S-rank battle was Hidan involved in? Itachi's case has plenty to do with this, what with him being an Edo summon who's control was broken without someone having to kill themselves.

    How am I avoiding a point I never claim? Please, show me where I said that. My claim was "We have had an entire arc showcasing that there are more then one option to taking down an Edo summon." Link.
    How weak YOU think they are. Link me when was it said that the amount of corpses is what Kabuto meant by perfecting it. His battle with Asuma. Your whole mental argument actually has nothing to do with this, not just Itachi's. Unless you show me that controlling Edos is the same as controlling a Kyuubi with a Sharingan and that Contract Seal will actually work, don't waste my time.

    Your claim in the post below it implied that those options were within Konoha's library. So you did technically claim that.

    Quote Quote:
    When have I been evasive or pretending not to remember? I said that "he was still proclaimed the strongest even in his elder state", you asked when and said you could only remember them talking about his prime. All the links show he wasn't merely being talked about in past tense when claimed as the strongest.
    Oh I don't know, maybe when you avoided answering how the seals would work and said that ordinary attacks work instead. And there you're, once again. Are you sure that past tense wasn't used because NONE OF THE OTHER LINKS TALK ABOUT HIM BEING THE STRONGEST?
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 25, 2013 at 01:16 PM.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And once again, Tobi was a mystery. At that time, he WAS Madara. Madara not showing them doesn't mean he doesn't have them, as such, this can't be used as a proof of anything. Also, Sasuke's words suggested that both MS abilities need to be awaken, not necessarily Tsukuyomi and Amaterasue. And since the Databook was talking about Itachi's...yeah. The Bijuu's whole existence was a mystery until Tobi explained them. The point remains is, unless it's retconned, it remains a fact.
    You can't have it both ways. You can't simply write something off as "at that time", because at the current time, Hashirama is the strongest ninja ever. Madara has shown his "genjutsu" and it wasn't named Tsukuyomi, so the argument can be made. The databook never specified solely Itachi's Susanoo, so you can't write that off either. The Bijuu's were not a mystery, they had got explained quite a bit. That's not how "facts" work. Either what Kishi claims is automatically a fact, or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Since this and the argument below are similar, I will talk about it below. The link doesn't show how long he can last, nor does it say that his stamina is the main issue. It simply states that his performance is different because of his low chakra.
    He was already breathing hard, a sign of exhaustion. That along with the later mention of lessening his life span show he wasn't gonna last long. And stamina not the main issue? Then please show what the main issue was, because your "facts" all point to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Techniques have everything to do with fighting styles. The examples you gave, all have one Jutsu in common. So spare me another one of your horrible examples. Well if we're gonna go like that, then the argument doesn't work because we don't know how long Sarutobi can last in the first place. It's horrible example because it uses a tremendous amount of chakra. What you said about Kage Bunshin, was one of the most nonsensical things I've heard in my whole life. It made literally, no sense. So you're saying, that it costs no chakra at all, and one can make them infinitely? That's exactly what you said. And because they can make infinite amount, without draining any chakra, it's dangerous? What the fuck is that? Kakashi didn't use Kage Bunshin, it was a bluff as he stated in the page before.
    Um, what? Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya have four techniques in common (Kage Bunshin, Rasengan, Toad summoning, Shunshin) and some additional ones between each of them and Naruto due to Sage Mode and the Kyuubi Mode respectively. Itachi and Sasuke have six (Shackling Stakes genjutsu, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Great Fireball, Sharingan Genjutsu, Phoenix Sage Fire), Obito and Kakashi have 3 (Kamui, Great Fireball, Sharingan Genjutsu). I could also point to Hashirama and Yamato, Obito and Nagato, or them all with Madara. So how exactly is it an horrible example?

    We see him breathing hard and nearly exhausted. Every other character we witness in such a situation don't fight for much longer, at least without outside help. And it's not an horrible example. Never was it stated that Kage Bunshin uses a tremendous amount of chakra. Nonsensical? We were literally told how the techniques work, that the user's chakra is evenly split among them. And as I said, it has no set cost. A person with 100 points of chakra and a person with 20 points of chakra can both make the same number of clones. The only difference is that even though they both make four clones, the clones of the person with 100 points will each have 25 points to use, while the clones of the person with 20 points will only have 5 points of chakra to use. Thus the reason it's so dangerous, since a person with low stamina can easily end up splitting their chakra incredibility low making too many. I'm not sure how you are claiming that Kakashi didn't use Shadow Clones when we literally see him doing so. It was a bluff, because as mentioned, those clones likely were so weak they wouldn't have been able to put up any sort of fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    So if ordinary attacks work, then random ass seals that serve entirely different purposes would also magically work? Please...just stop. Another weird statement. Elaborate if you well. Sasuke Vs Mei was rather tame. Because you want him to use imaginary seals in an imaginary scenario that would require his full attention while Orochimaru could be stabbing the shit out of him the whole time.
    Since the Edo summon's bodies are basically normal, there's no reason to believe that blocking their chakra or using a seal design to negate mental control wouldn't work. I fail to see anything weird about it, unless you're somehow presuming that Sarutobi would only concern himself with defeating Orochimaru in a plan involving just the Dead Demon Seal. Obviously, whatever plan Sarutobi used would have involved taking Orochimaru down, regardless of whatever sealing method he picked. Sasuke vs Mei wasn't a battle, try again. That's ridiculous. Sarutobi wouldn't be sacrificing any more attention then he did using the Dead Demon Seal. If anything, it would require less attention, since using the Dead Demon Seal involved quite a bit of standing still. Explain how using another seal would make the scenario any different from him using that seal.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No, it's not obvious. I want a link that says it's continuously drawing chakra even when it's covered. Oh I don't know, maybe the same way Sasori remained alive with nothing in his body. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Again, quit evading shit you can't answer to.
    How is it not obvious. It's always on, thus the whole reason he has to cover it. If it being on didn't drain chakra, then he would have no need to cover it. Sasori was nothing more then a chakra core, so yeah, I agree with that. I'm not evading anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    How weak YOU think they are. Link me when was it said that the amount of corpses is what Kabuto meant by perfecting it. His battle with Asuma. Your whole mental argument actually has nothing to do with this, not just Itachi's. Unless you show me that controlling Edos is the same as controlling a Kyuubi with a Sharingan and that Contract Seal will actually work, don't waste my time.
    Around Chuunin/low Jounin level, going by what has been shown. For instances, Tobirama was praised for being able to preform the Water Barrier technique without any external source of water, but not only has both Kakashi and Darui done that, but even a bunch of nameless fodder were capable of it. And Hashirama's usage of Mokuton was supposedly an example of a Hokage-level exchange, but Yamato's usage was just as large. How about a link showing that Orochimaru's power over Edo Tensei was greater then Kabuto's. Um, when did the Jounin Asuma become S-rank? And the mental argument has plenty to do with this. We saw, not only with several Edo summons freeing themselves through mental effort (thus the need to block out their personalities) but saw the control of the Edo Tensei overridden by a Sharingan genjutsu.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Your claim in the post below it implied that those options were within Konoha's library. So you did technically claim that.
    Where? My comment about his hype in regards to knowing every technique in Konoha?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Oh I don't know, maybe when you avoided answering how the seals would work and said that ordinary attacks work instead. And there you're, once again. Are you sure that past tense wasn't used because NONE OF THE OTHER LINKS TALK ABOUT HIM BEING THE STRONGEST?
    I pointed out that since the Edo summons were as they were in life, there was no reason to think the seals wouldn't work. Now unless you have some evidence that the Edo summons suddenly gained some sort of ability to negate seals, there's no reason to doubt it. The only two implying past tense was the one with Iruka which got countered by Sarutobi, and the one with Orochimaru set only a decade before, which would still be after his prime. If it wasn't considered true in the present, then Kabuto praising Orochimaru for killing him would make no sense.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    You can't have it both ways. You can't simply write something off as "at that time", because at the current time, Hashirama is the strongest ninja ever. Madara has shown his "genjutsu" and it wasn't named Tsukuyomi, so the argument can be made. The databook never specified solely Itachi's Susanoo, so you can't write that off either. The Bijuu's were not a mystery, they had got explained quite a bit. That's not how "facts" work. Either what Kishi claims is automatically a fact, or not.
    I'm not having anything both ways. In case you couldn't comprehend it the first 100 time I said it, I'm not arguing if Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama or not. Can you please tell me what gave you the idea that he doesn't have Tsukuyomi just 'cause he didn't use it? Well, since the user is stated to be Itachi, then yes, I can. Yes, they were. They've always been. I'm not sure what you mean. Kishi's claim is a fact, and it remains a fact until he retcons it.

    Quote Quote:
    He was already breathing hard, a sign of exhaustion. That along with the later mention of lessening his life span show he wasn't gonna last long. And stamina not the main issue? Then please show what the main issue was, because your "facts" all point to it.
    Spare me your speculations. Show you what the main issue? I'm not the one claiming anything in case you can't tell.

    Quote Quote:
    Um, what? Naruto, Minato, and Jiraiya have four techniques in common (Kage Bunshin, Rasengan, Toad summoning, Shunshin) and some additional ones between each of them and Naruto due to Sage Mode and the Kyuubi Mode respectively. Itachi and Sasuke have six (Shackling Stakes genjutsu, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Great Fireball, Sharingan Genjutsu, Phoenix Sage Fire), Obito and Kakashi have 3 (Kamui, Great Fireball, Sharingan Genjutsu). I could also point to Hashirama and Yamato, Obito and Nagato, or them all with Madara. So how exactly is it an horrible example?
    Okay then, they know basic fucking techniques. I still don't see how that ties to the main point. It's a horrible example in the first place because you used it in a ridiculous way. Just cause they have a few similar techniques, doesn't mean they have to fight in the same way. And that doesn't negate the fact that techniques do affect your style.

    Quote Quote:
    We see him breathing hard and nearly exhausted. Every other character we witness in such a situation don't fight for much longer, at least without outside help. And it's not an horrible example. Never was it stated that Kage Bunshin uses a tremendous amount of chakra. Nonsensical? We were literally told how the techniques work, that the user's chakra is evenly split among them. And as I said, it has no set cost. A person with 100 points of chakra and a person with 20 points of chakra can both make the same number of clones. The only difference is that even though they both make four clones, the clones of the person with 100 points will each have 25 points to use, while the clones of the person with 20 points will only have 5 points of chakra to use. Thus the reason it's so dangerous, since a person with low stamina can easily end up splitting their chakra incredibility low making too many. I'm not sure how you are claiming that Kakashi didn't use Shadow Clones when we literally see him doing so. It was a bluff, because as mentioned, those clones likely were so weak they wouldn't have been able to put up any sort of fight.
    Spare me your speculations once again. Never? It was stated across the entire series. Can you link me where this nonsense came from? I want something that says people can create clones infinitely. And you know what's funny? Is that even if you're right and that one can create infinite amount of clones, then it still doesn't show how long can Sarutobi last. It's not a normal Kage Bunshin, otherwise, it's not gonna be called Kakashi's version. He clearly said it's a bluff, meaning that they aren't meant for fighting. If they were normal Kage bunshins, then they wouldn't be a bluff anymore.

    Quote Quote:
    Since the Edo summon's bodies are basically normal, there's no reason to believe that blocking their chakra or using a seal design to negate mental control wouldn't work. I fail to see anything weird about it, unless you're somehow presuming that Sarutobi would only concern himself with defeating Orochimaru in a plan involving just the Dead Demon Seal. Obviously, whatever plan Sarutobi used would have involved taking Orochimaru down, regardless of whatever sealing method he picked. Sasuke vs Mei wasn't a battle, try again. That's ridiculous. Sarutobi wouldn't be sacrificing any more attention then he did using the Dead Demon Seal. If anything, it would require less attention, since using the Dead Demon Seal involved quite a bit of standing still. Explain how using another seal would make the scenario any different from him using that seal.
    Again with your speculation. I don't care if you see a reason or not, it's still your speculation. Not the plans you want him to use. They don't involve Orochimaru. It was a battle, I'm afraid. Because the seals you want him to use are different. The only ridiculous thing here is your attempt at running away by saying "Seal" without mentioning what seal.

    Quote Quote:
    How is it not obvious. It's always on, thus the whole reason he has to cover it. If it being on didn't drain chakra, then he would have no need to cover it. Sasori was nothing more then a chakra core, so yeah, I agree with that. I'm not evading anything.
    You stated that when he covers it, it STILL uses chakra. That's not obvious for shit. You're evading everything. Otherwise, you wouldn't talk about CS when it has nothing to do with Orochimaru taking other people's bodies.

    Quote Quote:
    Around Chuunin/low Jounin level, going by what has been shown. For instances, Tobirama was praised for being able to preform the Water Barrier technique without any external source of water, but not only has both Kakashi and Darui done that, but even a bunch of nameless fodder were capable of it. And Hashirama's usage of Mokuton was supposedly an example of a Hokage-level exchange, but Yamato's usage was just as large. How about a link showing that Orochimaru's power over Edo Tensei was greater then Kabuto's. Um, when did the Jounin Asuma become S-rank? And the mental argument has plenty to do with this. We saw, not only with several Edo summons freeing themselves through mental effort (thus the need to block out their personalities) but saw the control of the Edo Tensei overridden by a Sharingan genjutsu.
    And based on what was said, it's a Kage level battle. So keep this "Chuunin\ low Jounin" crap to yourself. These examples (like everything else you post) has nothing to do with the topic. So if Hashirama throws a Kunai, then he's at Shikamaru level? Another weird link. I said show me where was it stated that perfecting it meant more summons, and you link me something that has nothing to do with anything (like everything you post). As long as Hidan is an S-rank Ninja, and Asuma could match him, it's an S-rank battle. Which is all your speculation (which are based on your fantasy alone), so I don't see why I should bother with it.

    Quote Quote:
    Where? My comment about his hype in regards to knowing every technique in Konoha?
    Simple. You said we had an entire showcase of ways to deal with Edos. I said they weren't' available for Hiruzen. You said that as long as he knows every Jutsu in Konoha, then he should know them. Thus, you stated that all the ways we saw to deal with Edos, are from Konoha.

    Quote Quote:
    I pointed out that since the Edo summons were as they were in life, there was no reason to think the seals wouldn't work. Now unless you have some evidence that the Edo summons suddenly gained some sort of ability to negate seals, there's no reason to doubt it. The only two implying past tense was the one with Iruka which got countered by Sarutobi, and the one with Orochimaru set only a decade before, which would still be after his prime. If it wasn't considered true in the present, then Kabuto praising Orochimaru for killing him would make no sense.
    I'm gonna pretend the bold part doesn't exist. Please, understand the original argument, then look back at this bold part, and realize how stupid it is. I'm seriously feeling trolled here. Once again, you try to evade the points you can't answer to. I'm gonna say it again, non of these links (aside from Iruka's), even speak of him being the strongest Hokage in his elderly state. Still waiting for this.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; September 27, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

  10. #1344
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    What are you guys arguing about?

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What are you guys arguing about?
    Certainly not something worth all of the time wasted here. But RK just can't fucking leave things short and simple. Even I don't know what it's about anymore.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Spoiler: KingOfNight;3547483 show


    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    What are you guys arguing about?
    His claims of 1) anything Kishi says is a fact, 2) techniques have everything to do with fighting styles, 3) that to use Shadow Clones cost a tremendous amount of chakra, 4) that no other options were available or would have worked on the Edo Hokages, 5) that Kakashi's active Sharingan doesn't drain chakra, 6) that the Cursed seal has nothing to do with Orochimaru stealing bodies, 7) that Sarutobi's battle against Orochimaru and the Edo Hokages is still a "kage-level" battle, 8) that Kabuto had greater control over Edo Tensei despite Orochimaru's chakra overpowering said control, 9) a weaker ninja keeping up with a stronger one puts that ninja on the same level of power, and 10) that Sarutobi wasn't still being called the strongest during Part One.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Any of them related to concept of genius?

    Anyway, I'll bite.


    Quote Quote:
    1) anything Kishi says is a fact
    Not necessarily a fact until proven otherwise or can't be contradicted or makes sense.

    Quote Quote:
    2) techniques have everything to do with fighting styles,
    It does have a lot to do with fighting styles, but not everything.

    Quote Quote:
    3) that to use Shadow Clones cost a tremendous amount of chakra,
    It does, does it not? It splits the chakra between the original and bunshin in half.

    Quote Quote:
    4) that no other options were available or would have worked on the Edo Hokages,
    At the time, it wouldn't have. If Kishi held true to Part I and II though, it would have, but Hiruzen might not have known it. Actually, who else knew there was another way to free the Edo Tensei? As for sealin them so they can't do anything... Hiruzen didn't have the tools to bind the two hokage and put a seal on them, did he?

    Quote Quote:
    5) that Kakashi's active Sharingan doesn't drain chakra,
    Why would anyone claim this, especially when the manga has stated that Sharingan always drains chakra no matter who has it, whether the Uchiha or non-Uchiha? That'd be enough for me to not take the person seriously again. I'm not sure who said this, though.

    Quote Quote:
    7) that Sarutobi's battle against Orochimaru and the Edo Hokages is still a "kage-level" battle,
    Again, depends on how you look at it. No doubt by today's standards, it's a genin-level battle. But back then, it'd have been a kage-level battle easily, especially considering it was a kage against two former undead kage and a very powerful ninja.

    Quote Quote:
    8) that Kabuto had greater control over Edo Tensei despite Orochimaru's chakra overpowering said control,
    Huh? I don't think Orochimaru's chakra did much, but it did play a big part in Kabuto bein able to control the Edo Tensei so well. Orochimaru's powerful chakra boosted Kabuto's power, if I recall.

    Quote Quote:
    9) a weaker ninja keeping up with a stronger one puts that ninja on the same level of power, and 10) that Sarutobi wasn't still being called the strongest during Part One.
    Not necessarily, it really depends on how they're doing it. If Konohamaru keeps up with Naruto and even beats him, it doesn't necessarily mean he's on the same level of power. It could just as well mean Naruto went easy or just let Konohamaru hit him to see how strong he is.

    He was called the strongest hokage...

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It does, does it not? It splits the chakra between the original and bunshin in half.
    No, since the chakra is evenly split among the clones. How much chakra the user has really doesn't matter, thus the reason people like Kakashi, Konohamaru, and Itachi can use it despite none of them having a large amount of chakra.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    At the time, it wouldn't have. If Kishi held true to Part I and II though, it would have, but Hiruzen might not have known it. Actually, who else knew there was another way to free the Edo Tensei? As for sealin them so they can't do anything... Hiruzen didn't have the tools to bind the two hokage and put a seal on them, did he?
    True, but we're talking in the current context. In that context, there is no excuse for Sarutobi not knowing about them, especially now that every competent ninja appears to be aware of Edo Tensei. Not to mention that Kishi had Tobirama apparently regularly use it enough for it to be well known to ninjas of that era. As I pointed out, we've pretty much seen any option that could be used against a living opponent ( like immobilizing them, or weakening them, or poisoning them, or even catching them in an illusion) could be used against an Edo summon.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Huh? I don't think Orochimaru's chakra did much, but it did play a big part in Kabuto bein able to control the Edo Tensei so well. Orochimaru's powerful chakra boosted Kabuto's power, if I recall.
    Kabuto specifically stated that it was so strong that it was even overpowering his own control of the Edo summons. So it was a major boost, one that even Obito was weary of. Thus the reason Kabuto wanted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He was called the strongest hokage...
    Not just Hokage, the strongest Kage as stated by Kabuto.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Half of chakra is still a lot of chakra, as far as I know.

    I don't remember that. I know Kabuto said Orochimaru's chakra was powerful and that it wanted to overpower him and gain control, but that was back when Hinata, Yamato, and Naruto met Kabuto during Itachi vs. Sasuke. Then durin the war, I only recall him mentioning how Orochimaru's cells increased his power and control over Edo Tensei.

    But did Hiruzen have any way to immobilize the Edo Tensei? It was luck that they found out a way to get rid of the Edo Tensei for good was to make it achieve peace. Plus, it usually took the combination of two shinobi to bind and immobilize the Edo Tensei with the seal. Hiruzen did well with what he was given.

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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Half of a little would be a little. Hardly a tremendous amount.

    Yeah, Kabuto said it during the war.

    There was the Five Element Seal, Swamp of the Underworld, Demonic Illusion: Tree Binding Death, Temporary Paralysis technique, or the Dropping Lid technique that were available. And that's not even factoring in the possible unknown techniques that could have been created and used. He did do good back then, but currently he could have did much better with less hassle.

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