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Thread: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

  1. #1411
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Say what? You're the one who decided not to provide any counterargument:
    I didn't provide a counterargument then, because there was no need. But, whatever man. Whatever...

    Quote Quote:
    I didn't ignore anything. I already stated what it meant, a god. Both the Rikudou Sennin and Hashirama have basically been shown as gods, completely above even the other top ninjas. I said, and I already provided the proof about me saying it, that he was still being proclaimed the strongest. I never said they said anything.
    A God of Shinobi, not God. You still have to show me where in those pages was he claimed as an omnipotent god or where was he said to be the strongest. By the way, the page with Kabuto doesn't count, since Kabuto said "the strongest Kage" not the "strongest period."

    Quote Quote:
    That is correction, especially by your reasoning that anything said is automatically a fact. And the three are all about his strength. Unless you believe that his prime was a decade ago like others, then even a comment about him ten years ago would be past his prime. And I "fell" to the Kabuto link because you specifically said that none of the links even mentioned the strongest Hokage and I called you a liar for denying something literally in print.
    Nope, it's not correction. The three, mentions jackshit about his strength in his prime. Whether it was a decade, or three years ago, I don't care. It's not now, so it doesn't matter. Please, think about the bold part once again. And as I said above, Kabuto's link doesn't really count.

    Quote Quote:
    So you didn't threaten to stop posting if I didn't answer that one question and then stop anyway despite me answering it just as you asked?
    I was actually talking about the "whether I asked for your opinion on the Hokage's strength" question.

    Quote Quote:
    No, it doesn't. I literally showed you that there is no set cost, that the series outright states that the cost is evenly dividing the chakra. The Crow Clone didn't retcon any of that.
    The Karasu Bunshin description outright says that it costs LESS chakra than the normal one. Thus, the normal one does have a set cost which seems to be great seeing that another Jutsu had to be developed in order not to use it.

    Quote Quote:
    As been mentioned numerous times on this very board, Mangareader doesn't work for Americans. And seriously, it's called reading comprehension, learn it. How was anything admitted when I literally just explained why it wasn't possible? The hypocritical one here is you, for ignoring that your very own claim that Kakashi used tajuu Kage Bunshin completely counters the argument you tried to make. If by won you mean disregarding the actual series and just stuck your fingers in your ears while shaking your head, then I suppose so.
    And again, don't talk about Reading Comprehension. Anyway, it's chapter 316 page 11. How? Like this
    Spoiler show


    You basically just stated that you used a Tajuu Kage Bunshin example to talk about a normal Kage Bunshin. And again, for the one hundredth time, that's not hypocrisy. That's why I tell you that you're in no position to talk about R.C. I've long since won this argument, regardless of what you say. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm talking about what you originally tried to do. And that's not distinguishing the two Jutsus until it was convenient.

    Quote Quote:
    The page shows the Sharingan is always a major drain, there is no "only sometimes". And as pointed out, basic knowledge (as I showed via the wiki) is that the Sharingan is draining as long as it's active. Covering it up does not stop it from being active, which as established, drains while in that state. I have the evidence on my side, whereas you have nothing to support this silly claim that Kakashi can close his Sharingan and stop the drain. Perhaps take your own advice and provide the link where such a thing is even mentioned.
    Perhaps your Reading Comprehension failed you yet again, or maybe this is one of your attempts at acting stupid. The page you showed, doesn't say anything about a major drain "always." If he couldn't stop the drain, Sakura wouldn't tell him "to think before using." If you can't stop something, there's no point in telling you to think before using it. And if it was always in use, she wouldn't say that either. You've nothing but a steaming pile of shit on your side, not evidence. And again, basic knowledge is that it drains chakra as long as it's open. Still fucking waiting for a link that says the Sharingan drains chakra even when it's closed. Though knowing you, you would probably just keep running until you bore me to death.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; October 09, 2013 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #1412
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I literally showed you that there is no set cost, that the series outright states that the cost is evenly dividing the chakra.
    But that's the effect, not the cost.
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  3. #1413
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I didn't provide a counterargument then, because there was no need. But, whatever man. Whatever...
    And yet you claim I was "running away", despite there being nothing to respond to...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    A God of Shinobi, not God. You still have to show me where in those pages was he claimed as an omnipotent god or where was he said to be the strongest. By the way, the page with Kabuto doesn't count, since Kabuto said "the strongest Kage" not the "strongest period."
    They are the same thing. And no I don't, since my claim was merely that he was still being praised past his prime. Three of the links talk about him in the present and the fourth speaks of him only ten years ago. And yes, it does count, since as has been repeatedly mentioned, the discussion was merely about him still being praised.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Nope, it's not correction. The three, mentions jackshit about his strength in his prime. Whether it was a decade, or three years ago, I don't care. It's not now, so it doesn't matter. Please, think about the bold part once again. And as I said above, Kabuto's link doesn't really count.
    It is a correction, unless you're now gonna argue that what Kishi says is not facts... And they all talk about his power. No one else seems to have a problem seeing that. And you should care, since it was you who were saying he was only praised in his prime. The only stipulation my argument requires is to show it past that point, past the point of his prime, which I have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I was actually talking about the "whether I asked for your opinion on the Hokage's strength" question.
    That makes no sense then, because the quote you responded to had nothing to do with that comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    The Karasu Bunshin description outright says that it costs LESS chakra than the normal one. Thus, the normal one does have a set cost which seems to be great seeing that another Jutsu had to be developed in order not to use it.
    How does that suggest it has a set cost? A nickel would be less then anything between a dime to hundred dollar bill. All that would imply is that the Crow Clone is less than or equal to the cheapest Shadow Clone, which is by no means equalling set cost. And it wasn't developed because Kage Bunshin not to be used, as we have clearly seen Itachi and Kakashi still use it. Crow Clone has a completely different ability and usage then Shadow Clone. That's like saying that the Fuuton Rasengan was created because the regular Rasengan wasn't wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And again, don't talk about Reading Comprehension. Anyway, it's chapter 316 page 11. How? Like this
    Spoiler show


    You basically just stated that you used a Tajuu Kage Bunshin example to talk about a normal Kage Bunshin. And again, for the one hundredth time, that's not hypocrisy. That's why I tell you that you're in no position to talk about R.C. I've long since won this argument, regardless of what you say. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm talking about what you originally tried to do. And that's not distinguishing the two Jutsus until it was convenient.
    That's most likely a translation error, seeing as the entire training was stated to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin multiple times before.

    No, I didn't. I was talking about Kage Bunshin, which I literally state right there, right after literally telling you that Kakashi didn't use Tajuu Kage Bunshin. I don't know how clearer I can make this. It is hypocrisy, because you have yet to explain how characters like Kakashi or Itachi can use Kage Bunshin if your claim is true. Until you actually do, there is no "winning". You can't have it both ways. And that's another lie. Show me where I ever mentioned or used Tajuu Kage Bunshin or used an example where the character actually said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Perhaps your Reading Comprehension failed you yet again, or maybe this is one of your attempts at acting stupid. The page you showed, doesn't say anything about a major drain "always." If he couldn't stop the drain, Sakura wouldn't tell him "to think before using." If you can't stop something, there's no point in telling you to think before using it. And if it was always in use, she wouldn't say that either. You've nothing but a steaming pile of shit on your side, not evidence. And again, basic knowledge is that it drains chakra as long as it's open. Still fucking waiting for a link that says the Sharingan drains chakra even when it's closed. Though knowing you, you would probably just keep running until you bore me to death.
    Because Sakura knows all about it after seeing it that once... I gave you not only panel evidence, but showed you that it was widely accepted as true. And no, basic knowledge is that it drains when active
    , not "open" as you have tried to claim. And I'm waiting for the link that says that it doesn't drain Kakashi when "closed", something apparently only you have read. Or even show a link to this "only open" comment you claim exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    But that's the effect, not the cost.
    It's both. If it wasn't, then the whole danger/forbidden angle wouldn't make any sense as there would be no way to create so many clones that you could kill yourself if there was an initial cost first.

  4. #1414
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    And yet you claim I was "running away", despite there being nothing to respond to...
    Oh please, you were outright changing topics and evading shit. But I guess someone like you needs any pity victory he can get.

    Quote Quote:
    They are the same thing. And no I don't, since my claim was merely that he was still being praised past his prime. Three of the links talk about him in the present and the fourth speaks of him only ten years ago. And yes, it does count, since as has been repeatedly mentioned, the discussion was merely about him still being praised.
    Definitely not what you said. You said that he was praised as "the strongest." That's your full claim. And no, God of Shinobi and omnipotent God are two utterly different things.

    Quote Quote:
    That makes no sense then, because the quote you responded to had nothing to do with that comment.
    It was an example of your delusion.

    Quote Quote:
    How does that suggest it has a set cost? A nickel would be less then anything between a dime to hundred dollar bill. All that would imply is that the Crow Clone is less than or equal to the cheapest Shadow Clone, which is by no means equalling set cost. And it wasn't developed because Kage Bunshin not to be used, as we have clearly seen Itachi and Kakashi still use it. Crow Clone has a completely different ability and usage then Shadow Clone. That's like saying that the Fuuton Rasengan was created because the regular Rasengan wasn't wanted.
    The fact that it costs less means it has a set cost. Otherwise, it's impossible to say it costs less. That's like me saying "I have less money than every coin ever dropped by a mistake in history" , and it's like what the fuck. That makes no sense in the least. If by your logic, it has no set cost, then it can be as low as humanly possible within the Narutoverse. As such, there's no fucking way Karasu Bunshin can cost less. Please, explain these different functions. I want you to tell me what these different abilities and usages are.

    Quote Quote:
    That's most likely a translation error, seeing as the entire training was stated to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin multiple times before.

    No, I didn't. I was talking about Kage Bunshin, which I literally state right there, right after literally telling you that Kakashi didn't use Tajuu Kage Bunshin. I don't know how clearer I can make this. It is hypocrisy, because you have yet to explain how characters like Kakashi or Itachi can use Kage Bunshin if your claim is true. Until you actually do, there is no "winning". You can't have it both ways. And that's another lie. Show me where I ever mentioned or used Tajuu Kage Bunshin or used an example where the character actually said that.
    Please, a mistranslation you say. Your link is unnecessary. I know he's using Tajuu Kage Bunshin, the point here is that he almost always ignores the "Tajuu" part. Even in the Wiki it states that he doesn't distinguish the two and ignores the "Tajuu" part.

    It doesn't change the original point. We were talking about Kage Bunshin, you brought Kakashi as an example where he was clearly using "Tajuu Kage Bunshin." Again, it's not hypocrisy, because I didn't claim anything. How many times will you have me repeat myself? I still didn't take my claim about Kakashi using a different version. The bigger picture is that Kakashi used a Tajuu Kage Bunshin. You knowing that, used it as an example of a Kage Bunshin.

    Quote Quote:
    Because Sakura knows all about it after seeing it that once... I gave you not only panel evidence, but showed you that it was widely accepted as true. And no, basic knowledge is that it drains when active
    , not "open" as you have tried to claim. And I'm waiting for the link that says that it doesn't drain Kakashi when "closed", something apparently only you have read. Or even show a link to this "only open" comment you claim exist.
    So, yeah. I'm guessing your just gonna keep running away? What do you mean Sakura knows about it after seeing it once? What panel evidence? Are we gonna play this again? Where in that page was it said to drain chakra "always"? You still haven't said how can he "think before using" something that's always in use. You want a link? It's actually in that very page you gave me. He can't think before using something that's always in use. That's a proof that it stops working when he covers his eyes. Still waiting for that link...
    Last edited by KingOfNight; October 12, 2013 at 04:44 AM.

  5. #1415
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    The concept of "Arguing" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It's both. If it wasn't, then the whole danger/forbidden angle wouldn't make any sense as there would be no way to create so many clones that you could kill yourself if there was an initial cost first.
    That's simply not true. Kage Bunshin has a base chakra cost that is not including the halving of the chakra pool. That is nothing to argue about! Never was, never will be.

    How can the creation of the [complex] clone not cost any chakra? It makes zero sense. You are free to convince me otherwise, but you will have a hard time finding a single panel supporting you.

    It doesn't cost the rest of the remaining 50%, it's still theirs, just stored within a clone. Otherwise Naruto and others using the technique would consciously discard half+ of their chakra by using the jutsu, which is not true as we all know.
    Last edited by Rikudou King; October 12, 2013 at 06:30 PM.
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  6. #1416
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Oh please, you were outright changing topics and evading shit. But I guess someone like you needs any pity victory he can get.
    Changing topics? I was following your line of reasoning involving things that Kishi said. That was completely along the lines of the topic we were discussing and I answered every question put forth. Fact remains that it was not I who ran away.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Definitely not what you said. You said that he was praised as "the strongest." That's your full claim. And no, God of Shinobi and omnipotent God are two utterly different things.
    My claim, countering your claim about only believing it being about his prime, and I quote:

    Quote Quote:
    No, he was still proclaimed the strongest even in his elder state.
    As already pointed out, Proclaim means to announce publicly, to indicate conspicuously, or to praise. And there are more kinds of gods then the omnipotent one, especially in Eastern religions. Heck, in-series, the Juubi has been remarked as a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It was an example of your delusion.
    And what delusion would that be, that I showed you why I believed what I did when you showed doubt at my conclusion? Strange sort of delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    The fact that it costs less means it has a set cost. Otherwise, it's impossible to say it costs less. That's like me saying "I have less money than every coin ever dropped by a mistake in history" , and it's like what the fuck. That makes no sense in the least. If by your logic, it has no set cost, then it can be as low as humanly possible within the Narutoverse. As such, there's no fucking way Karasu Bunshin can cost less. Please, explain these different functions. I want you to tell me what these different abilities and usages are.
    Except if you had no money, then you would indeed have less money then every coin ever dropped. Anyway, I already pointed out that it being less by no means mean it has a set cost: Two is less then Three and everything above it, which is it being less then a set number. And considering the mechanics of the Crow Clone, that's not strange at all. All that a Crow Clone is is chakra covering a bunch of crows. It clearly wouldn't cost much, probably as much as a regular clone.

    The function of the Shadow Clone is to observe and experience, then return said observations and experiences back to the original user. It's the only clone technique that has been stated capable of this. The Crow Clone is a combo clone/summoning that allows the clone to confuse and attack even after it has been destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Please, a mistranslation you say. Your link is unnecessary. I know he's using Tajuu Kage Bunshin, the point here is that he almost always ignores the "Tajuu" part. Even in the Wiki it states that he doesn't distinguish the two and ignores the "Tajuu" part.

    It doesn't change the original point. We were talking about Kage Bunshin, you brought Kakashi as an example where he was clearly using "Tajuu Kage Bunshin." Again, it's not hypocrisy, because I didn't claim anything. How many times will you have me repeat myself? I still didn't take my claim about Kakashi using a different version. The bigger picture is that Kakashi used a Tajuu Kage Bunshin. You knowing that, used it as an example of a Kage Bunshin.
    Almost always? unless you can show him repeatedly ignoring it, that's not true. And the wiki also mentions that Tajuu Kage Bunshin is creating hundreds of clones at once, a criteria that doesn't fit your claims.

    There is literally nothing suggesting that Kakashi wasn't using Kage Bunshin except you. Not only does it literally have him stating Kage Bunshin right there, but the number of clones doesn't even fit with the usage of Tajuu Kage Bunshin. There is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim. There isn't even any examples to show Kakashi calling out the name of a technique and then using another like with Naruto, and as pointed out, Tajuu Kage Bunshin involves creating 100+ clones and Kakashi only created a dozen. So what exactly is there showing that this wasn't Kage Bunshin as was claimed? And this argument started over your claim that Kage Bunshin was a tremendous cost, which clearly can't be true unless you can explain how characters with noted low chakra are able to use it. Trying to claim that Kakashi can use Tajuu Kage Bunshin only sinks that claim even more. Seriously, there would be no point in me arguing against that since it would mean that you were wrong about the cost regardless. I would have gained more from accepting it then correcting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    So, yeah. I'm guessing your just gonna keep running away? What do you mean Sakura knows about it after seeing it once? What panel evidence? Are we gonna play this again? Where in that page was it said to drain chakra "always"? You still haven't said how can he "think before using" something that's always in use. You want a link? It's actually in that very page you gave me. He can't think before using something that's always in use. That's a proof that it stops working when he covers his eyes. Still waiting for that link...
    It was sarcasm. The point was that there was no point in relying upon Sakura's comments when she knows nothing about the Sharingan or Kakashi's situation. She is not an expert. So trying to use her comments as proof is meaningless. And I pointed out that it's common knowledge that the Sharingan constantly drains while active. Both that page and the databook make no mention of the strain only being when it's uncovered.

    Spoiler show


    The strain was never stated to be because it was used, it's because he's not a full-bloodied Uchiha. Fact remains that it has been made clear that the Sharingan drains whenever active. Whether it is covered or not does not change that it's always active and thus always draining. Covering it would not deactivate it and thus would not stop the drain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    That's simply not true. Kage Bunshin has a base chakra cost that is not including the halving of the chakra pool. That is nothing to argue about! Never was, never will be.

    How can the creation of the [complex] clone not cost any chakra? It makes zero sense. You are free to convince me otherwise, but you will have a hard time finding a single panel supporting you.

    It doesn't cost the rest of the remaining 50%, it's still theirs, just stored within a clone. Otherwise Naruto and others using the technique would consciously discard half+ of their chakra by using the jutsu, which is not true as we all know.
    Can you point out where this base cost is mentioned or shown, because as far as has been mentioned and shown, there is no separate cost. Again, if that was the case, then one couldn't endanger themselves with the technique by making too many clones, since they would never be able to make the clones in the first place.

    The cost is a part of the technique, and seemingly isn't deducted til afterward from the clones themselves when they pop, with the remaining chakra apparently returning to the user. At least, that was the way it worked when Naruto fought Pain. So like I said, the division is the cost. Now if you can show this is wrong, then fine, I'll accept that.

  7. #1417
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Changing topics? I was following your line of reasoning involving things that Kishi said. That was completely along the lines of the topic we were discussing and I answered every question put forth. Fact remains that it was not I who ran away.
    Sure.

    Quote Quote:
    My claim, countering your claim about only believing it being about his prime, and I quote:

    As already pointed out, Proclaim means to announce publicly, to indicate conspicuously, or to praise. And there are more kinds of gods then the omnipotent one, especially in Eastern religions. Heck, in-series, the Juubi has been remarked as a god.
    Still doesn't explain where he was said to be the strongest. If you said that he was praised in his elderly state, we'd have been long since done. But you had to add the strongest. Gonna admit your mistake? That's exactly the point. It doesn't mean he's an omnipotent one.

    Quote Quote:
    And what delusion would that be, that I showed you why I believed what I did when you showed doubt at my conclusion? Strange sort of delusion.
    You honestly kept arguing whether I asked you or not, when I clearly told you I DIDN'T. What reason do you have to believe I did when I told you otherwise? And you kept arguing further, as if you were right. That's being deluded.

    Quote Quote:
    Except if you had no money, then you would indeed have less money then every coin ever dropped. Anyway, I already pointed out that it being less by no means mean it has a set cost: Two is less then Three and everything above it, which is it being less then a set number. And considering the mechanics of the Crow Clone, that's not strange at all. All that a Crow Clone is is chakra covering a bunch of crows. It clearly wouldn't cost much, probably as much as a regular clone.
    And so if I had two or three or even 50 bucks. I'd still have less money than every coin ever dropped. It doesn't specify anything at all. Thus, impossible to tell how much I have. The examples you give are as horrible as usual. When you say 2 is less than 3, you make it known that 2 is the number you have in mind. Try "My favorite number is less than 50 octillion." As said, it's impossible to say it costs less if it doesn't have a set cost. Just like I said before, by your logic, it can be used with the absolute least amount of chakra humanly possible.

    Quote Quote:
    The function of the Shadow Clone is to observe and experience, then return said observations and experiences back to the original user. It's the only clone technique that has been stated capable of this. The Crow Clone is a combo clone/summoning that allows the clone to confuse and attack even after it has been destroyed.
    It doesn't attack when destroyed. And the Databook implies it functions the same with less chakra. If it doesn't observe and experience, Itachi wouldn't have sent it to talk to Sasuke.

    Quote Quote:
    Almost always? unless you can show him repeatedly ignoring it, that's not true. And the wiki also mentions that Tajuu Kage Bunshin is creating hundreds of clones at once, a criteria that doesn't fit your claims.
    There's no fucking way I'm gonna keep looking up every time he uses Kage Bunshin. Look it up yourself. How does it not fit my claim? It's actually perfectly fitting my claim. The Wiki states that unlike the normal Kage Bunshin which creates a handful, it creates hundreds.

    About the Kakashi thing, I haven't really read what you typed because it's bothersome. But doesn't the bold part means that you admit he used Tajuu Kage Bunshin? Either way, I don't care about the Kakashi thing anymore. A waste of time if nothing else.

    Quote Quote:
    It was sarcasm. The point was that there was no point in relying upon Sakura's comments when she knows nothing about the Sharingan or Kakashi's situation. She is not an expert. So trying to use her comments as proof is meaningless. And I pointed out that it's common knowledge that the Sharingan constantly drains while active. Both that page and the databook make no mention of the strain only being when it's uncovered.

    The strain was never stated to be because it was used, it's because he's not a full-bloodied Uchiha. Fact remains that it has been made clear that the Sharingan drains whenever active. Whether it is covered or not does not change that it's always active and thus always draining. Covering it would not deactivate it and thus would not stop the drain.
    Why not, her words are better trusted than yours. So...wait a minute. You're using Sakura's statement about it being tiresome...but refuse her statement to think before using it? Careful...I'm just saying. If it doesn't matter whether he covers it or not, then why do it? Why would your so called "common knowledge" mention that he covers it because he can't deactivate it? Makes no sense. And if Sakura was wrong, he should correct her, he's her teacher after all.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; October 13, 2013 at 09:26 AM.

  8. #1418
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Taijuu as in multiple, meaning ten, hundred or a thousand. So it indeed fits the example.

    I'm not sure what we are talking about here. The cost for the technique, the cost for the tech per clone or an increase of chakra cost for multiple clones.
    Last edited by Schabrak; October 13, 2013 at 09:08 AM.
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  9. #1419
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Still doesn't explain where he was said to be the strongest. If you said that he was praised in his elderly state, we'd have been long since done. But you had to add the strongest. Gonna admit your mistake? That's exactly the point. It doesn't mean he's an omnipotent one.
    Again, what I said was proclaimed, which means to announce publicly, to indicate conspicuously, or to praise. I never said the word said, therefore there is no mistake. The links do exactly as I claimed they do, having him praised and overtly making him out as the strongest. And you are the one who brought up omnipotent. I never claimed that was a requirement or even a factor when I spoke about them being gods. The fact remains that both the Rikudou Sennin and Hashirama have been implied as strong as the Juubi, placing them on the same tier as gods like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You honestly kept arguing whether I asked you or not, when I clearly told you I DIDN'T. What reason do you have to believe I did when I told you otherwise? And you kept arguing further, as if you were right. That's being deluded.
    I never argued anything. I directly mentioned why I did what I did, because you specifically emphasize it as "my thoughts", implying there was nothing behind it but my own opinion. I showed that it wasn't merely my own opinion, but one that the series itself was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And so if I had two or three or even 50 bucks. I'd still have less money than every coin ever dropped. It doesn't specify anything at all. Thus, impossible to tell how much I have. The examples you give are as horrible as usual. When you say 2 is less than 3, you make it known that 2 is the number you have in mind. Try "My favorite number is less than 50 octillion." As said, it's impossible to say it costs less if it doesn't have a set cost. Just like I said before, by your logic, it can be used with the absolute least amount of chakra humanly possible.
    It does in fact specify something, zero. The lowest you can possibly go is zero, since the lowest number drop would be one. So my example works just fine, especially since there is no direct numeric values assigned to chakra. The closest numeric values is percentages, and even those are not set in stone. For example, Naruto's limit of FRS is two, regardless of whether he's at 100% or 50%. Same with Sasuke previous limit with Chidori. So there is no way you can make such a claim as something being impossible in cost, when there is literally nothing to use as a base.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It doesn't attack when destroyed. And the Databook implies it functions the same with less chakra. If it doesn't observe and experience, Itachi wouldn't have sent it to talk to Sasuke.
    It can, due to that whole crow/Sharingan trick Itachi enjoys pulling. And it in no way would need to allow Itachi to observe or experience to be sent to sheer Sasuke. The only point of that meeting was to direct Sasuke to where the real Itachi was. It wasn't as if he was trying to spy on Sasuke or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    There's no fucking way I'm gonna keep looking up every time he uses Kage Bunshin. Look it up yourself. How does it not fit my claim? It's actually perfectly fitting my claim. The Wiki states that unlike the normal Kage Bunshin which creates a handful, it creates hundreds.

    About the Kakashi thing, I haven't really read what you typed because it's bothersome. But doesn't the bold part means that you admit he used Tajuu Kage Bunshin? Either way, I don't care about the Kakashi thing anymore. A waste of time if nothing else.
    You are the one arguing that Naruto "almost always" does that. So that's on you to prove. And Kakashi only created a dozen, so how exactly does that fit with your claim of hundreds?

    I already knew you weren't reading everything, because you kept claiming and arguing against things I never actually said. The very fact that you acknowledge not really reading anything means you shouldn't be trying to debate about said things or talking about reading comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Why not, her words are better trusted than yours. So...wait a minute. You're using Sakura's statement about it being tiresome...but refuse her statement to think before using it? Careful...I'm just saying. If it doesn't matter whether he covers it or not, then why do it? Why would your so called "common knowledge" mention that he covers it because he can't deactivate it? Makes no sense. And if Sakura was wrong, he should correct her, he's her teacher after all.
    Good thing it's not only my words I'm going off of. I'm using a comment that's back by other evidence, which if you would recall, was what started this little debate. The rest of Sakura's comment are disproven by what we have been told about transplanted eyes and such. Covering it lessens the drain, but the drain is still there. Same reason Danzo had to seal the Sharingans in his arm and Aoi wore an eye-patch. It's not that complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    Taijuu as in multiple, meaning ten, hundred or a thousand. So it indeed fits the example.

    I'm not sure what we are talking about here. The cost for the technique, the cost for the tech per clone or an increase of chakra cost for multiple clones.
    The series says otherwise. Tajuu Kage Bunshin has always been attributed to 100+. There's no reason why Kakashi would call out Kage Bunshin if he wasn't using Kage Bunshin.

    We're talking about the cost of the technique itself, particularly whether it cost a set amount of "tremendous" chakra to use. I pointed to Kakashi using it, along with Itachi too, to show that it can't possibly cost a large or set amount of chakra if characters noted for low stamina were capable of using it.

  10. #1420
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Again, what I said was proclaimed, which means to announce publicly, to indicate conspicuously, or to praise. I never said the word said, therefore there is no mistake. The links do exactly as I claimed they do, having him praised and overtly making him out as the strongest. And you are the one who brought up omnipotent. I never claimed that was a requirement or even a factor when I spoke about them being gods. The fact remains that both the Rikudou Sennin and Hashirama have been implied as strong as the Juubi, placing them on the same tier as gods like it.
    I know. But you said "proclaimed the strongest." The links you gave don't even hint at that. Orochimaru said he would be able to defeat him if he was 10 years younger, in no way does that "make him out as the strongest." Since there's shit ton of people who can whoop Orochimaru. Neither does Kakashi's link or Iruka's. When I told you that there's no "strongest period", you said there is, the god which Hiruzen was claimed to be. This is just about the same as saying he's an omnipotent God. Hashirama was known as God of Shinobi too, and the strongest Shinobi. Not strongest period.

    Quote Quote:
    I never argued anything. I directly mentioned why I did what I did, because you specifically emphasize it as "my thoughts", implying there was nothing behind it but my own opinion. I showed that it wasn't merely my own opinion, but one that the series itself was making.
    Sure.

    Quote Quote:
    It does in fact specify something, zero. The lowest you can possibly go is zero, since the lowest number drop would be one. So my example works just fine, especially since there is no direct numeric values assigned to chakra. The closest numeric values is percentages, and even those are not set in stone. For example, Naruto's limit of FRS is two, regardless of whether he's at 100% or 50%. Same with Sasuke previous limit with Chidori. So there is no way you can make such a claim as something being impossible in cost, when there is literally nothing to use as a base.
    It doesn't specify zero. It's a possibility among many. You know I have money with me, but you don't know how much. You ask me, and I tell you "I have less than 50 octillion." It specify nothing. That's no even a matter of debate. Unless you can tell me how you will figure how much money I have when I tell you I have less money than every coin ever dropped in history. And once again, by your logic, it can be as low as humanly possible. This is the third time you ignore that. Don't blame me when I say you evade stuff.

    Quote Quote:
    It can, due to that whole crow/Sharingan trick Itachi enjoys pulling. And it in no way would need to allow Itachi to observe or experience to be sent to sheer Sasuke. The only point of that meeting was to direct Sasuke to where the real Itachi was. It wasn't as if he was trying to spy on Sasuke or anything.
    Not really, it's just crows flying about. Can you link me any time they actually attacked? If his clone get destroyed by someone other than Sasuke, how would he know if Sasuke got the message? The all careful Itachi would just sit there and wait in sheer faith?

    Quote Quote:
    You are the one arguing that Naruto "almost always" does that. So that's on you to prove. And Kakashi only created a dozen, so how exactly does that fit with your claim of hundreds?
    I have the Wiki pointing it out too. What dozen? It can't possibly be any less than a hundred. How did you figure it was only 12 clones?

    EDIT: Okay, here's another one! There're plenty of more times but I'm seriously not gonna waste time looking them all up. Two should be enough.

    Quote Quote:
    I already knew you weren't reading everything, because you kept claiming and arguing against things I never actually said. The very fact that you acknowledge not really reading anything means you shouldn't be trying to debate about said things or talking about reading comprehension.
    You basically just proved what I said before. You really do need any pity victory you can get. And I will speak about your comprehension seeing that I specifically told you I don't care about that anymore which is why I didn't read it. Thanks for proving my statement
    Spoiler show


    Quote Quote:
    Good thing it's not only my words I'm going off of. I'm using a comment that's back by other evidence, which if you would recall, was what started this little debate. The rest of Sakura's comment are disproven by what we have been told about transplanted eyes and such. Covering it lessens the drain, but the drain is still there. Same reason Danzo had to seal the Sharingans in his arm and Aoi wore an eye-patch. It's not that complex.
    You know, this would be done a lot quicker if you would just post these "evidence" you speak of. I don't recall any evidence, don't tell me to trust you, 'cause I don't. Post the damn thing here, since you clearly have a lot of time in your hand. Nothing about the transplanted eyes says they drain chakra even when closed. Sakura's comment was never negated, by anything, at all.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; October 14, 2013 at 08:46 AM.

  11. #1421
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The series says otherwise. Tajuu Kage Bunshin has always been attributed to 100+. There's no reason why Kakashi would call out Kage Bunshin if he wasn't using Kage Bunshin.

    We're talking about the cost of the technique itself, particularly whether it cost a set amount of "tremendous" chakra to use. I pointed to Kakashi using it, along with Itachi too, to show that it can't possibly cost a large or set amount of chakra if characters noted for low stamina were capable of using it.
    And you've checked every scene in the orginal tanks/raws for that? Aside from the comedical naming with Kakashi, I'm pretty sure that Naruto has used multiple shadow clones during the series, some of which might not have been had the sub "multiple" in front of them, despite them obviously being so.

    Where exactly does it say that it has to be hundred and up? That seems to be your personal definition only.

    Can't be nothing, but has to be more than a norma/water/fire/whatever clone, as it's so much more complex, having an own chakra pool, mind etc. Maybe 0,1-1% for Naruto, 5-10% for Kakashi, more for most others. It's clearly not a definted 34,634 chakra points per clone of something, that would be absurd and incompatible with the manga.
    Last edited by Schabrak; October 14, 2013 at 07:45 AM.
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  12. #1422
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I know. But you said "proclaimed the strongest." The links you gave don't even hint at that. Orochimaru said he would be able to defeat him if he was 10 years younger, in no way does that "make him out as the strongest." Since there's shit ton of people who can whoop Orochimaru. Neither does Kakashi's link or Iruka's. When I told you that there's no "strongest period", you said there is, the god which Hiruzen was claimed to be. This is just about the same as saying he's an omnipotent God. Hashirama was known as God of Shinobi too, and the strongest Shinobi. Not strongest period.
    Yeah, they do. 1) The scene with Iruka has Sarutobi claiming it, i.e. announce publicly. 2) The scene with Kakashi basically suggested that he can take Orochimaru, the guy who fought evenly with two S-rank ninjas while lacking any of his techniques and the scene with Orochimaru confirms that idea, i.e. indicate conspicuously. 3) The scene with Kabuto has him over the other Kages, the top ninjas in all the nations, i.e. indicate conspicuously. All four examples fit the definition of proclaimed perfectly.

    And exactly who are these "tons" of people who could whoop Orochimaru, a guy who literally can't be killed? Hashirama? Madara? Rikudou Sennin? Juubi Obito? Itachi? Nagato? Onpoki? Naruto? Sasuke? The first four are in a whole league of their own that was already acknowledged. The next three have a literal instant win power. And Naruto and Sasuke are somewhat debatable, but would still fall within the above categories. Exactly what "regular" strong ninja can whoop Orochimaru? His two fellow Sannin's couldn't beat him when he had lost his arms.

    No, Hashirama is the strongest, period, or at least was before Juubi Obito. There is no one even near his level. The closest person, Madara, was still well below his level even with the Kyuubi and that even after gaining the addition of the Rinnegan and Mokuton, he still hasn't become stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It doesn't specify zero. It's a possibility among many. You know I have money with me, but you don't know how much. You ask me, and I tell you "I have less than 50 octillion." It specify nothing. That's no even a matter of debate. Unless you can tell me how you will figure how much money I have when I tell you I have less money than every coin ever dropped in history. And once again, by your logic, it can be as low as humanly possible. This is the third time you ignore that. Don't blame me when I say you evade stuff.
    It does specify zero, because you can't get any lower then that. There are no other possibilities in having less then one, which is the minimum number that could have been dropped. And I haven't ignored anything, I literally talked about it right there in the last sentence. As I previously mentioned, you can't claim such a thing would be impossible without anything to base it on. We have never been told the "lowest possible cost" or that any technique has to cost X-amount. The closest we have gotten is percentages, and as said, even those aren't set in stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Not really, it's just crows flying about. Can you link me any time they actually attacked? If his clone get destroyed by someone other than Sasuke, how would he know if Sasuke got the message? The all careful Itachi would just sit there and wait in sheer faith?
    As previously mentioned, the whole crow/Sharingan trick Itachi enjoys. Who else would have been in a position to destroy his clone? The only person the clone would fight was Sasuke. In addition, he also had Kisame relay instructions too to Sasuke.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I have the Wiki pointing it out too. What dozen? It can't possibly be any less than a hundred. How did you figure it was only 12 clones?

    EDIT: Okay, here's another one! There're plenty of more times but I'm seriously not gonna waste time looking them all up. Two should be enough.
    By counting, through it's actually 20. Probably was thinking of something else.

    Two is hardly enough when you argue that Naruto has done it more times then not. It's on you to prove that the majority of the times have been that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You basically just proved what I said before. You really do need any pity victory you can get. And I will speak about your comprehension seeing that I specifically told you I don't care about that anymore which is why I didn't read it. Thanks for proving my statement.
    Right, because you literally admitting that you haven't been reading because it's bothersome is me grasping at straws for a victory. That is basically the definition of bad reading comprehension, not fully reading what is written. And I have shown several times that you have claimed something I never said. If it's such a bother, why bring it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You know, this would be done a lot quicker if you would just post these "evidence" you speak of. I don't recall any evidence, don't tell me to trust you, 'cause I don't. Post the damn thing here, since you clearly have a lot of time in your hand. Nothing about the transplanted eyes says they drain chakra even when closed. Sakura's comment was never negated, by anything, at all.
    I have posted this evidence, which as mentioned, began this little debate. And we are literally told that the Sharingan drains as long as it's active. Covering the eye does not stop it from being active. And you keep saying "close", but the transplanted eyes can't be "closed" in the sense I believe you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schabrak View Post
    And you've checked every scene in the orginal tanks/raws for that? Aside from the comedical naming with Kakashi, I'm pretty sure that Naruto has used multiple shadow clones during the series, some of which might not have been had the sub "multiple" in front of them, despite them obviously being so.

    Where exactly does it say that it has to be hundred and up? That seems to be your personal definition only.

    Can't be nothing, but has to be more than a norma/water/fire/whatever clone, as it's so much more complex, having an own chakra pool, mind etc. Maybe 0,1-1% for Naruto, 5-10% for Kakashi, more for most others. It's clearly not a definted 34,634 chakra points per clone of something, that would be absurd and incompatible with the manga.
    I wouldn't say "every". I only concerned myself with the non-Naruto remarks, like with Kakashi and Sarutobi. And the difference is more of a fan definition.

    Is it more complex? The only clones that have been shown not able to use any techniques have been Gaara's sand clones and the haze clones used by those Ame ninjas in the Forest of Death. Possibly Shino's insect clone too. The other type of clones, like the Wood clone and Lightning clone, have shown their own mind and ability to use techniques. The only difference between them and Shadow Clones are what they're made out of and the fact that Shadow Clones are still connected to the user to pass back memories and chakra. I mentioned before that there is no set numeric values in the series, that the closest we have been given is a percentages numeric value to some techniques like the Chidori and FRS.

  13. #1423
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Are you serious RK? You're just gonna drop a discussion for 1 week and then just come back? I lost my enthusiasm. We'll agree to disagree.

  14. #1424
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    Does anyone consider obito to be a genius?
    Despite the fact that he's a complete idiot, he seems immensely talented and shows some of the qualities of a genius, particularly when it comes to utilising new techniques. He utilised the capabilities of his MS without any training whatsoever immediately after its development, something I find somewhat questionable, but whatever, and his very rapid control over the Juubi when others appear to take years to take control of one of the nine is pretty impressive, if not outright ridiculous. He's also manipulated pretty much the entire world, even if he could've gone about in much simpler ways. Of course, he's had some help along the way; see Madara and Hashirama's cells. He could be considered a genius, but unfortunately it's even easier to see him as a fool.

  15. #1425
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: The concept of "Genius" in NARUTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Sasuke View Post
    You both should've did that three pages ago...

    Does anyone consider obito to be a genius?
    I seriously do not. HE's had luck all the way. Madara showed him what to do, and chances are he followed Madara's plan to a Tee and remembered everything Madara told him. He didn't even consciously use his Mangekyo power the first time, it was automatic/by accident. I just find it hard to take him as a genius, especially given that if he wanted he could have finished off Kakashi, Gai, and Naruto easily but for some reason chose not to.

    I mean, Rinnegan, Kamui, and good skin that could tank rasengan, and he's only just holding his own against them.

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