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Thread: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

  1. #151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Well, I think freezing the water in one's body would be too hax. That would be an automatic win for Hitsugaya at whatever level his opponent was.
    Some technique that even surpasses his ice flower Bankai technique could be developed, though.
    Well since Yama managed to burn the air clean pretty much then the oposite could be true. The difference with heat and cold is that you have a limit to how cold it can get but the other way around there is no limit. This puts Toshiro at any given time closer to the limit of temperature change. It would be hax but realiastically (based on Bleach reality) he could become strong enough to have an area surrounding himself down to that limit, that would make any organism within that area instantly frozen, slowing the movements of the person hes fighting.

    That absolute zero limit might be hard to reach in an area as large as that which Yama effects though.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  2. #152
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Well since Yama managed to burn the air clean pretty much then the oposite could be true. The difference with heat and cold is that you have a limit to how cold it can get but the other way around there is no limit. This puts Toshiro at any given time closer to the limit of temperature change. It would be hax but realiastically (based on Bleach reality) he could become strong enough to have an area surrounding himself down to that limit, that would make any organism within that area instantly frozen, slowing the movements of the person hes fighting.

    That absolute zero limit might be hard to reach in an area as large as that which Yama effects though.
    If you can lower the body temperature even a few degrees, it would be fatal, though, so, it's not as if he would need to lower it to minus million degrees or something. Just a couple of degrees lower than the regular value and it's pretty much over.

  3. #153
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    If you can lower the body temperature even a few degrees, it would be fatal, though, so, it's not as if he would need to lower it to minus million degrees or something. Just a couple of degrees lower than the regular value and it's pretty much over.
    Can't get it to minus a million, in celsius it's -273.15°C. Lets say he doesn't get it down that low but still to a very cold place, if you go outside on a freezing day, like -50°C you could do so and be fine, wear a thick coat, gloves and so on. You could create a shield so then it would be a mechanism to slow the oponent down if it doesn't go all the way down to absolute zero. If he does reach that though I don't think any shield could protect against Toshiro and if he manages to form water around the oponent and then drop it down to absolute Zero there could be an army of VL, CC's, Quincyz and Aizens, they would all be dead. Hax indeed
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  4. #154
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Can't get it to minus a million, in celsius it's -273.15°C. Lets say he doesn't get it down that low but still to a very cold place, if you go outside on a freezing day, like -50°C you could do so and be fine, wear a thick coat, gloves and so on. You could create a shield so then it would be a mechanism to slow the oponent down if it doesn't go all the way down to absolute zero. If he does reach that though I don't think any shield could protect against Toshiro and if he manages to form water around the oponent and then drop it down to absolute Zero there could be an army of VL, CC's, Quincyz and Aizens, they would all be dead. Hax indeed
    True, that's the limit, so, hypothetically speaking, he won't even get close to that absolute zero.
    But I guess we were talking about different things. I mean lowering the body temperature a couple of degrees to make it lower than 36.5°C regular value, which would be fatal. If he was accessing the water in one's body, that is, which would be too hax.

    What you theorized is also hax, but that looks more achievable to me for him to have an effect on the outer sources rather than what's inside

  5. #155
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Yes I see your point now, reaching the water inside should only in my mind be able through outside sources or he would completely dominate everyone and everything. The absolute zero idea would mean that maybe a distance fight can be had unless he some one manages to do it long range. I believe that if Toshiro improves the way he has at his tender age he can reach this but manipulating the water inside his oposition would require extreme precision, controlling the free flowing water around him and on the battle field would be easier to manage. Also that will have less resistance to the cooling effect compared to inside the body of a strong fighter.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

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  7. #156
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Tenacious Weezy's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    I don't think Hitsugaya will be the "strongest", his ability is nice but it only can freeze compared to Yama who could burn. Spiritual power trumps abilities as proven by Aizen and Dangai Ichigo. All the science and numbers you guys are using are kind of irrelevant when it comes to Bleach too but it's cool to ponder. Also did Shunsui say he will be the strongest literally? I thought it was more as in potentially he could be. Even Gin made a comment that he was a once in a generation holy like Shinigami but so are Kenpachi and Ichigo according to their backgrounds and they know much less than Hitsugaya (Bankai, Kidou, etc)

  8. #157
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Tenacious, he did indeed claim Hitsugaya would be the strongest. And only freeze? I do't get that part, if you want to discuss science being irrelevant then you can't take freezig something from this world. How often can something be completely shattered from being frozen? In Bleach it is a common thing, Sode no Mai is a good example.
    Freezing is a great thechnique and I would say it trumps fire when it comes with conrol over the water element as a combo.

    *edit* Hmm, I see there are several translations to this part with Shunsui, one is that he will supras him in a 100 years. I wonder which is correct.
    Last edited by Sanadan; February 17, 2013 at 03:32 AM.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  9. #158
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    According to cnet128, Shunsui says "Captain Hitsugaya is a genius, after all. Give him another hundred or so years and he might outdo me yet." Shunsui thinks Hitsugaya may have the potential to surpass him in 100 years, it's hard to compare him with Yamamoto though. In a war between fire and water/ice, I guess it all boils down to their reiatsu, either fire evaporates water faster than it can be frozen or vice versa. If Bleach obeyed the laws of physics, I think fire would trump ice because heating is much easier than cooling and Hitsugaya would need huge masses to cool down 15 million degrees but when we take manga physics into account, reiatsu will be the determining factor.

    Excluding Ichigo, the main character who naturally has the highest potential, IMHO being able to overpower one of the most skilled swordspeople of all time when he was still a kid makes Kenpachi one the top contenders for "the strongest" title which IMHO currently belongs to the late Yamamoto. Of course Kenpachi's shikai and bankai abilities will play an important role, for example having Ikkaku's zanpakuto vs an elemental zanpakuto may make a great difference in his combat abilities. If the king of SS is actually a fighter, it's safe to assume he may have the highest potential, he's strong enough to hold realities together after all.

  10. #159
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Yes reiatsu will count for a lit but toshiros second stage of bankai shows he can reach huge amounts of cold from but a snow flake. This from a child in terms of growth compared to yama. And Iactually ddidn't take into account his intelligence, one of the smartest captains at that age. I belive he will become the strongest shinigami. Water trumps fire in the anime verse normally, I don't see why there would be an exception here and temperature aims for its surrounding, so heating a lot would take a lot of effort still.

    ---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------

    I was never actually thinking about how strong toshiro could become. I was a fan of his for the personality. He reminds me of myself when I was a kid and he reminds my of my kids now that their growing up. Reserved, precise, all the good things I like to privately pat myself on the back about. Only now in this conversation have I started to theorise and realize that he probably is going to be the strongest. When Shunsui said he would be as strong as him in 100 years then he basicallysaid toshiro will go aizen llevel. Kubo has stated that Shunsui with bankai is as strong as aizen so really toshiro in a mere 100 years according to him could beat aizen. Now where would he be in 200 years? 300? I think he is the future cc and goat.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  11. #160
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Crystal Black's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Both Zaraki and Toushirou have massive potential, but I'm quite shocked some of you believe he has more potential than Hitsugaya. Toushirou's potential is threw the roof. His power was projected to affect several kilometers just in shikai.
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/132/2
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/359/6
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/359/7

    This is when he admitted he was inexperienced and didn't have full control of his powers. With greater mastery over his abilities there's no telling how much of an effect Hyourinmaru will have over an area definitely with a water source near or even moisture.
    Smiling Devil


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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    EX CC bankai had a 15 million degrees hot bankai. No ice can freeze that m8. You can give him 1000 years to practice. Just to give you an indication the sun itself is only 10 million degrees on the surface (25 million degrees on the core).

  13. #162
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
    EX CC bankai had a 15 million degrees hot bankai. No ice can freeze that m8. You can give him 1000 years to practice. Just to give you an indication the sun itself is only 10 million degrees on the surface (25 million degrees on the core).
    He has that on his body, not in the surrounding, even if the body is not frozen, which it might be given time enough there are still areas where CC himself can be frozen, the feet for example. As mentioned before, temperature aims for its surrounding, the highest extremes for heat is higher in temperature but leave the bankai of for a second and it will drop rapidly. Having it on will drain power as well as Toshiros will drag the surrounding down making it harder to maintain this temperature.
    Just like Yamamotos Bankai made Toshiros impossible to use now Toshiros in the future would make Yamamotos impossible. You can't just look at temperatures alone.
    Toshiro will constantly work for his temperature while CC would work for his temperature, the strongest would be the one achieving his goal, which in the future would be Toshiro.
    Last edited by Sanadan; February 18, 2013 at 04:14 AM.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

  14. #163
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Well, if science applies on any level to good old hitsugaya then he should invariably have a weakness towards fire and particularly yamamoto. Hitsugaya's ice can at a given time be only as cold as it is physically possible for ice to be which is -273 degrees. Yamamoto's bankai reaches temperatures of 15000000 degrees. Hitsugaya controls ice and water to as far as we know he can use water as a weapon provided it does not exceed the 100 degrees temperature. I am not sure of how exactly reiatsu would help him get around this particular physical limitation of ice. Heat has to go somewhere at any point and his ice is as good a place as any. Taken from this perspective there is no reason for hitsugaya's ice to ever win against yamamoto's fire(15000000 -273 = 14999727).... Unless hitsugaya is able to conjure an amount of ice so massive that it can outright cancel the temperature yamamoto is able to conjure. That would be every bit as absurd as the very temperatures which yamamoto commands though. Perhaps hitsugaya can indeed deal with high temperatures with his own reiatsu (harribel's hirviendo) however that would perhaps require an amount of reiatsu proportional to the heat which would be a huge limiter to his ability to deal with heat. Perhaps the scenario that yamamoto has science on his side in regards to the use of hyorinmaru can be backed up by the manga though. Hitsugaya was not quite close to yamamoto when zanka no tachi was activated and even them him and that stern ritter were unable to use ice related techniques. Hitsugaya has actual captain level and so did that stern ritter so if even under those circumstances they were not able to use ice/water related techniques then it is possible that using ice/water techniques comes down to being a physical impossibility at any level. The only scenario in which hitsugaya could at least have science not screwing him over regardless of his strong his reiatsu is is that cold does not work like in our world at all and hitsugaya can generate an infinite amount of cold rather than ice's normal cold limit -273.

    As far as hitsugaya catching up to shunsui, I would think that 100 years makes sense. So far it does seem like a huge chunk of what growing stronger requires in bleach is age. Hitsugaya (and kenpachi perhaps) through talent is able to overcome that particular limitation to some degree though. Still, it does seem like it is precisely that which the apparent stronger captains have in common. Shunsu and ukitake seem to be at around the 1000 year old mark. Yamamoto has been referred to as the very history of SS. Unohana was a member of the original gotei 13. 100 years of training and yoruichi getting weaker was not enough for soifon to overcome yoruichi. Gin and byakuya seem to be of similar ages and so far it seems their powers seem to be roughly in the same league (at least IMO). Shinji was the aparent leader of the vizards and it seemed like he had been a captain the longest by the time of the events 100 years ago. In turn liza and hiyori seemed to be the younger vizards and also the weaker ones.

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  16. #164
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    He has that on his body, not in the surrounding, even if the body is not frozen, which it might be given time enough there are still areas where CC himself can be frozen, the feet for example. As mentioned before, temperature aims for its surrounding, the highest extremes for heat is higher in temperature but leave the bankai of for a second and it will drop rapidly. Having it on will drain power as well as Toshiros will drag the surrounding down making it harder to maintain this temperature.
    Just like Yamamotos Bankai made Toshiros impossible to use now Toshiros in the future would make Yamamotos impossible. You can't just look at temperatures alone.
    Toshiro will constantly work for his temperature while CC would work for his temperature, the strongest would be the one achieving his goal, which in the future would be Toshiro.
    How exactly would Toshiro's bankai make CC's bankai harder to use? His bankai is 15 million degrees of heat hot. That means game over in real terms in the space of a couple of thousand kilometers (let alone contact). You are feeling warm in the summer with 40 degrees Celcius yet the distance between you and the sun is approx 150,000,000 km. Comparing that to the power of ice is ludicrous to say the least in any shape or form.

    In terms of Bleach what happens is this : Toshiro activates bankai - CC activates bankai. Game over for Toshiro. CC's bankai is the most hax bankai ever shown in Bleach, yet Kubo had to get rid of it via deus ex machina.

    But I will concede that Toshiro has a bright future ahead of him. However he will never be as strong as Yamamoto period.
    Last edited by Chojin; February 18, 2013 at 01:41 PM.

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  18. #165
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Who is the strongest or has the most potential...

    How it would make it harder:
    Toshiros would reverse the effects of the captain commander since his is cold and the captains is warm. I am not comparing it to -1 degrees as you seem to do. I am comparing it to the power of Toshiro that brings about ice. You are comparing an ice block to the sun, I am comparing the CC with future Toshiro.
    Could the Sage of Six Paths be named Sanada Yukimura?

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