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That absolute zero limit might be hard to reach in an area as large as that which Yama effects though.
But I guess we were talking about different things. I mean lowering the body temperature a couple of degrees to make it lower than 36.5°C regular value, which would be fatal. If he was accessing the water in one's body, that is, which would be too hax.
What you theorized is also hax, but that looks more achievable to me for him to have an effect on the outer sources rather than what's inside
Yes I see your point now, reaching the water inside should only in my mind be able through outside sources or he would completely dominate everyone and everything. The absolute zero idea would mean that maybe a distance fight can be had unless he some one manages to do it long range. I believe that if Toshiro improves the way he has at his tender age he can reach this but manipulating the water inside his oposition would require extreme precision, controlling the free flowing water around him and on the battle field would be easier to manage. Also that will have less resistance to the cooling effect compared to inside the body of a strong fighter.
I don't think Hitsugaya will be the "strongest", his ability is nice but it only can freeze compared to Yama who could burn. Spiritual power trumps abilities as proven by Aizen and Dangai Ichigo. All the science and numbers you guys are using are kind of irrelevant when it comes to Bleach too but it's cool to ponder. Also did Shunsui say he will be the strongest literally? I thought it was more as in potentially he could be. Even Gin made a comment that he was a once in a generation holy like Shinigami but so are Kenpachi and Ichigo according to their backgrounds and they know much less than Hitsugaya (Bankai, Kidou, etc)
Tenacious, he did indeed claim Hitsugaya would be the strongest. And only freeze? I do't get that part, if you want to discuss science being irrelevant then you can't take freezig something from this world. How often can something be completely shattered from being frozen? In Bleach it is a common thing, Sode no Mai is a good example.
Freezing is a great thechnique and I would say it trumps fire when it comes with conrol over the water element as a combo.
*edit* Hmm, I see there are several translations to this part with Shunsui, one is that he will supras him in a 100 years. I wonder which is correct.
Last edited by Sanadan; February 17, 2013 at 03:32 AM.
According to cnet128, Shunsui says "Captain Hitsugaya is a genius, after all. Give him another hundred or so years and he might outdo me yet." Shunsui thinks Hitsugaya may have the potential to surpass him in 100 years, it's hard to compare him with Yamamoto though. In a war between fire and water/ice, I guess it all boils down to their reiatsu, either fire evaporates water faster than it can be frozen or vice versa. If Bleach obeyed the laws of physics, I think fire would trump ice because heating is much easier than cooling and Hitsugaya would need huge masses to cool down 15 million degrees but when we take manga physics into account, reiatsu will be the determining factor.
Excluding Ichigo, the main character who naturally has the highest potential, IMHO being able to overpower one of the most skilled swordspeople of all time when he was still a kid makes Kenpachi one the top contenders for "the strongest" title which IMHO currently belongs to the late Yamamoto. Of course Kenpachi's shikai and bankai abilities will play an important role, for example having Ikkaku's zanpakuto vs an elemental zanpakuto may make a great difference in his combat abilities. If the king of SS is actually a fighter, it's safe to assume he may have the highest potential, he's strong enough to hold realities together after all.
Yes reiatsu will count for a lit but toshiros second stage of bankai shows he can reach huge amounts of cold from but a snow flake. This from a child in terms of growth compared to yama. And Iactually ddidn't take into account his intelligence, one of the smartest captains at that age. I belive he will become the strongest shinigami. Water trumps fire in the anime verse normally, I don't see why there would be an exception here and temperature aims for its surrounding, so heating a lot would take a lot of effort still.
---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------
I was never actually thinking about how strong toshiro could become. I was a fan of his for the personality. He reminds me of myself when I was a kid and he reminds my of my kids now that their growing up. Reserved, precise, all the good things I like to privately pat myself on the back about. Only now in this conversation have I started to theorise and realize that he probably is going to be the strongest. When Shunsui said he would be as strong as him in 100 years then he basicallysaid toshiro will go aizen llevel. Kubo has stated that Shunsui with bankai is as strong as aizen so really toshiro in a mere 100 years according to him could beat aizen. Now where would he be in 200 years? 300? I think he is the future cc and goat.
Both Zaraki and Toushirou have massive potential, but I'm quite shocked some of you believe he has more potential than Hitsugaya. Toushirou's potential is threw the roof. His power was projected to affect several kilometers just in shikai.
This is when he admitted he was inexperienced and didn't have full control of his powers. With greater mastery over his abilities there's no telling how much of an effect Hyourinmaru will have over an area definitely with a water source near or even moisture.
EX CC bankai had a 15 million degrees hot bankai. No ice can freeze that m8. You can give him 1000 years to practice. Just to give you an indication the sun itself is only 10 million degrees on the surface (25 million degrees on the core).
Just like Yamamotos Bankai made Toshiros impossible to use now Toshiros in the future would make Yamamotos impossible. You can't just look at temperatures alone.
Toshiro will constantly work for his temperature while CC would work for his temperature, the strongest would be the one achieving his goal, which in the future would be Toshiro.
Last edited by Sanadan; February 18, 2013 at 04:14 AM.
Well, if science applies on any level to good old hitsugaya then he should invariably have a weakness towards fire and particularly yamamoto. Hitsugaya's ice can at a given time be only as cold as it is physically possible for ice to be which is -273 degrees. Yamamoto's bankai reaches temperatures of 15000000 degrees. Hitsugaya controls ice and water to as far as we know he can use water as a weapon provided it does not exceed the 100 degrees temperature. I am not sure of how exactly reiatsu would help him get around this particular physical limitation of ice. Heat has to go somewhere at any point and his ice is as good a place as any. Taken from this perspective there is no reason for hitsugaya's ice to ever win against yamamoto's fire(15000000 -273 = 14999727).... Unless hitsugaya is able to conjure an amount of ice so massive that it can outright cancel the temperature yamamoto is able to conjure. That would be every bit as absurd as the very temperatures which yamamoto commands though. Perhaps hitsugaya can indeed deal with high temperatures with his own reiatsu (harribel's hirviendo) however that would perhaps require an amount of reiatsu proportional to the heat which would be a huge limiter to his ability to deal with heat. Perhaps the scenario that yamamoto has science on his side in regards to the use of hyorinmaru can be backed up by the manga though. Hitsugaya was not quite close to yamamoto when zanka no tachi was activated and even them him and that stern ritter were unable to use ice related techniques. Hitsugaya has actual captain level and so did that stern ritter so if even under those circumstances they were not able to use ice/water related techniques then it is possible that using ice/water techniques comes down to being a physical impossibility at any level. The only scenario in which hitsugaya could at least have science not screwing him over regardless of his strong his reiatsu is is that cold does not work like in our world at all and hitsugaya can generate an infinite amount of cold rather than ice's normal cold limit -273.
As far as hitsugaya catching up to shunsui, I would think that 100 years makes sense. So far it does seem like a huge chunk of what growing stronger requires in bleach is age. Hitsugaya (and kenpachi perhaps) through talent is able to overcome that particular limitation to some degree though. Still, it does seem like it is precisely that which the apparent stronger captains have in common. Shunsu and ukitake seem to be at around the 1000 year old mark. Yamamoto has been referred to as the very history of SS. Unohana was a member of the original gotei 13. 100 years of training and yoruichi getting weaker was not enough for soifon to overcome yoruichi. Gin and byakuya seem to be of similar ages and so far it seems their powers seem to be roughly in the same league (at least IMO). Shinji was the aparent leader of the vizards and it seemed like he had been a captain the longest by the time of the events 100 years ago. In turn liza and hiyori seemed to be the younger vizards and also the weaker ones.
In terms of Bleach what happens is this : Toshiro activates bankai - CC activates bankai. Game over for Toshiro. CC's bankai is the most hax bankai ever shown in Bleach, yet Kubo had to get rid of it via deus ex machina.
But I will concede that Toshiro has a bright future ahead of him. However he will never be as strong as Yamamoto period.
Last edited by Chojin; February 18, 2013 at 01:41 PM.
How it would make it harder:
Toshiros would reverse the effects of the captain commander since his is cold and the captains is warm. I am not comparing it to -1 degrees as you seem to do. I am comparing it to the power of Toshiro that brings about ice. You are comparing an ice block to the sun, I am comparing the CC with future Toshiro.