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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
So I feel the science in this universe got so soft you can spread it on a croissant...
I understand the idea behind balancing a hollow's soul's influence on the host by injecting another soul, thus preventing "soul suicide."
But does anyone follow why/how a Quincy and Shinigami occupy opposite ends of the same spectrum? Or why/how a human soul could counterbalance a hollow's soul?
Better yet, the whole justification for Isshin to enter the Gigai was to become a human/shinigami hybrid, thus becoming a complete "opposite" of Masaki. I am guessing the human side is meant to counteract the hollow's influence on the host's soul. Is the Shinigami component necessary? As far as I could tell, her Quincy origins aren't the issue here.
I mean sure, if the Shinigami component is meant to "Strengthen" whatever hollowfication-stopping process, although as far as I could tell, what Urahara meant when he said that a "stronger" method is necessary to stop Masaki from becoming hollowfied is to permanently tie Isshin to her soul. But how does that exactly work, when we've seen that Shinigami and humans don't show much, if any, resistance to the hollowfication process, themselves?
This just reeks of a quickly-contrived-fix that was brought up at the last minute that hastily, messily ties up all the loose ends together. I think it'd be more plausible if Isshin lost his shinigami powers after using the Final Getsugatensho.
Also, if Urahara was aware of this method of perpetually stopping the hollowfication process, why didn't he help Ichigo? Or at least point Ichigo to the other vizards who have successfully at least subjugated their hollows?
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 24, 2013 at 12:49 AM.
But if Urahara can't help Masaki there... maybe the Visoreds will? After all, early in this mini-arc Aizen was talking about using his experiments to lure them out. Maybe they'll play their own part here, as well. Might also explain how Shinji knew who Ichigo was.
So Saiyan is it scientifically possible for you to post a thread saying nice things about Bleach?
Last edited by DraMas26; April 24, 2013 at 10:34 AM.
Ichigo wouldn't really need the help masaki needed as far as I know. So far hollowification is controlled by adding a soul opposite to it to balance things out within the soul of the victim. The thing is, ichigo already has human, hollow, shinigami and quincy within him. His dad (ironically at that) gave him human and shinigami halves and his mom gave him quincy and hollow ones. Ichigo was born awesome thanks to having the balance thing sorted out as he was born. Masaki could not have possibly gotten control of the hollow trying to fuse/devour her which would have inevitably resulted in soul suicide. Ichigo in turn simply had to actually take control over his inner hollow, he was never at risk of soul suicide. If masaki could be trained to contain her inner hollow then I would think it would have been the first option rather than betting it all in the improbably set of events which led to ishin accepting to stay with masaki forever without paying heed to the consequences.
In turn from what I gathered the reason masaki couldn't be helped the same way the vizards were was because the hollowification process she was going through was not actually meant for quincy but rather shinigami. Since her body could altogether not handle the process they had to go farther than with other cases and had to tie her to a source of great shinigami/human power to constantly suppress the hollow within her.
1) the entire bind Isshin-to-Masaki was to prevent her soul from melding with the hollow. That's what's different from helping the vizards, because their souls became one with the hollow and they became capable of using masks. So introducing a shinigami element to balance out Masaki's nature would make sense if she was a Quincy-hollow hybrid, which she was not; it was just that the hollow was kept at bay. According to their rules, only the human element would have been necessary to counterbalance the hollow corrupting the host's soul.
Besides, this 3-way balance does not seem impossible when Ginjo is capable of surviving.
2) doesn't explain how a human soul is capable of balancing out the hollow side when we know humans and shinigami are vulnerable/weak/prone to hollowfication.
3) Let's assume that the four souls that compose Ichigo were perfectly balanced at birth. Then he first showed signs of hollowfication when he got his shinigami powers, given to him/awakened by Rukia, taken away by Byakuya. Shouldn't the introduction of Rukia's powers have broken that balance? That imbalance was further exacerbated when he lost it and he began to suffer from his hollow side corrupting his psyche periodically. This should have been within treatable range considering that Kisuke studied this for a century. Or he could have at least strengthened his "human" side to counteract this.
Moreover, he should have been the one to direct Ichigo to the vizards. Considering that Kisuke possesses near-omniscience, he would have been aware of this back when Ichigo came back from SS, but he didn't do anything even after he got curbstomped by Grimmjow and Yammy. No, he just let Ichigo waste time contemplating whether or not to trust the vizards when they seemingly possess the only solution to his problems.
4) why didn't this imbalance cause any issue when Ichigo lost his Shinigami powers after using final getsuga tensho? By this logic, his powers being dormant should have caused some instability in the tentative balance maintained by the 4 components of his origins.
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 24, 2013 at 12:14 PM.
Well, masaki was a quincy/hollow hybrid so to speak. A hollow and quincy soul were already blending into one. Urahara just aimed to stop the process, not revert it.
Also, urahara does not suggest a 3 way balance for the vizards. He says he used the light from quincy arrows and human souls to balance things out in quincy so there are indeed all 4 types of souls or powers in there in some form or another. I guess that with masaki he did try to take things further and stop hollowification altogether so he went to the extent of binding her with a captain level shinigami so that she would not transform.
Last edited by kkck; April 24, 2013 at 12:31 PM.
If anything, adding a 4th foreign soul would complicate the balance further.
Besides, still doesn't explain:
1) how/why human souls counterbalance hollow's influence when they, themselves, are prone to hollowfication.
2) why Ichigo's balance was not disrupted when he gained/lost his shinigami powers on several occasions
3) why Urahara did not actively introduce Ichigo to those with the solution.
Aside from that, I'm still convinced that Masaki's quincy and hollow sides remain separate (more so with the illustration of Isshin saving Masaki from being eaten by the hollow) and am skeptical of the idea that Masaki was hollowfied just a little bit before Isshin stopped it. I mean what would that even look like?
-Shinigami starts out as a normal shinigami
-Shinigami gets a hollow soul inserted into its own
-Shinigami is at the opposite end of quincy and human is at the opposite end of hollow. In the vizard situation human souls were added to balance and the hollow soul and quincy power was added for whatever (perhaps to balance the shinigami soul).
Now, taking that in consideration a fullbringer is kinda different. They are as far as we know humans who get hollow powers. Their two powers being opposites already balance each other out in the end hence why a fullbringer would not go through any of this.
Ginjo having a shinigami side is questionable for that matter. Considering he lost them I would think he got them in a similar fashion to the way ichigo got power from rukia. He did not display anything like shinigami powers until he used ichigo's fullbring however it is worth considering fullbring itself is a hollow based power.
My own impression is that any given type of soul can exist on its own but the moment it is fused with something else you immediately have to balance every soul with its opposite so as to not overwhelm another side or be overwhelmed. So the hollow half is is balanced with human souls and to have those two balanced souls not overwhelm the shinigami half quincy powers are added.
Regardless, we know that Ginjo was born as a normal fullbringer; he solely comes from humans and hollows. Then he gained shinigami powers to become Ichigo's predecessor. However, him gaining shinigami powers did not disrupt the balance he was maintaining between his hollow and human side.
Even if Ginjo did lose his shinigami powers and regained them by stealing Ichigo's fullbring, we did not see any instability that are associated with injecting that "foreign" essence into the host.
We did not see any instability when Ichigo gained and lost his powers (when Rukia gave him powers, when Ichigo used the final getsuga), either.
This is why it is more probable that the shinigami essence does not influence the balance maintained by human and hollow souls, one way or the other.
So, here is my beef.
As you said, the situation with hollowfication is that:
1) there is a host soul
2) a foreign/hollow soul is injected
3) another, human soul is introduced to counteract the foreign/hollow soul.
That's the basis of a "vaccine" (as Urahara put it). Vaccines are meant to create an environment in the body so that the pathogen/invader would be eliminated.
In the case of Shinji and the others, introducing the quincy origin makes sense, because the visors are hollow-shinigami hybrids. In other words, the host is now a hollow-shinigami hybrid, and need a quincy-human hybrid to balance out.
In the case of Masaki, her Quincy soul is not fused with the hollow. Urahara and the others are trying to prevent exactly that. What he meant when he said she will never return to her former state is that she will be carrying that hollow inside of her forever, but not that she will become hollowfied.
However, her Quincy origins aren't the source of the imbalance. If her Quincy essence is on the same spectrum as the Shinigami, then it can be safely assumed that it does not influence the balance maintained by humans and hollows. Based on all these observations, then one can also conclude that injecting the essence of a shinigami is not crucial to counteract the hollow's influence. By their logic, only a human's influence is necessary.
This brings the turn of events that forced Isshin to stop being a Shinigami into question.
But let's just say that all of this is inaccurate. There still isn't a clear explanation as to:
1) how Quincies and Shinigami, and Humans and Hollows are polar opposites of each other. On what basis is this balance maintained? What's the unit of measurement? How can human souls counteract hollow influences when they are prone to hollowfication?
2) Besides, I thought Quincies are humans, at their core. If Fullbringers' mothers were able to survive the hollows' influence, what makes Masaki so different. What's the aspect of Quincies that separate them so much from humans that they lose the ability to counterbalance Hollows?
3) How Ichigo was relatively fine as a Shinigami when his Quincy side did not "awaken" until recently.
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 24, 2013 at 04:20 PM.
1) I think their opposites can be explained like this:
- Purify Hollows
- Destroy Hollows
- Have a heart
- Do not have a heart
I'm not too sure about this opposite stuff myself because I'm not sure if its based on science or characteristics but there are opposites in each opposing race.
Human souls can counteract hollow influences because they have something a hollow doesn't have: a heart. Ginjo said himself that a hollow's mask is made from its heart. However hollows still have an affinity to their heart's desire, they just can't pursue them in the same manner because they become instinctual monsters. Ever wondered why hollows eat human souls? It's because of their desire to have a heart. Shinigami and Quincy would normally be more difficult to kill so humans are the ideal prey.
2) Only a residue of the Hollow's residue resides in the Fullbringer's mother. It's not an entire Hollow soul. Makes sense that they survive. Not sure about what aspect of Quincies make them different from regular human souls because we don't know too much about Quincy souls so far. Their powers seem to be somewhat genetic. I guess that's just something that's meant to be explained later.
3) I don't see why not. There's a difference between Ichigo and Masaki's situation and it's that Ichigo's Hollow literally is a part of Zangetsu i.e. it's a part of his soul. I guess his soul was just born as a hybrid and not as seperate souls. The only reason there is imbalance with others is because their regular souls and the other souls are seperate.
Most of what you say make sense.
But Kubo still doesn't explain why Quincy cannot also fill the part of being "alive" and having a "heart."
Why an individual's Shinigami side needs to be balanced out by a Quincy's essence, at all, when the host's soul's instability's cause has nothing to do with that to begin with; it is caused by the foreign hollow soul. Quincies and Shinigami are fine without having to mix their "stuff" with each other under normal circumstances. Why do they need to be involved, when they seemingly do not influence the Human-Hollow balance?
And why Masaki needed her Quincy side balanced when:
1) her host/original soul is not melded with the hollow's essence. Frankly, that's what they're trying to prevent.
2) only a human's essence would be needed to counteract the hollow's influence.
Are you referring to Masaki or Ichigo? Think you're referring to Masaki.
Basically the opposite pairs are:
Shinigami - Quincy
Human - Hollow
Now Masaki was becoming a Hollow so she was a Quincy - Hollow. In order to balance that out you need the opposite which is a Shinigami - Human. That's what Urahara meant when he said he had to insert something opposite:
Urahara said so himself that Masaki couldn't go back to the way she was, meaning she couldn't go back to being a regular Quincy. if she couldn't be a Quincy she could only be a regular human that's why Urahara resorted to making Isshin a Human - Shinigami so he could bring balance to her soul complication.
1) But Urahara states that when a soul is Hollowfied their original soul begins to mix with the Hollow souls:
Masaki is already beginning to Hollowfy (she already has a hole) so currently her soul is Quincy - Hollow so they need an exact opposite to balance it out.
2) Only a human's essense will be able to counteract a pure Hollow soul. Masaki's soul atm is Quincy - Hollow and not just Hollow so for balance there needs to be a Shinigami side to create an exact opposite.
the only bad thing in the mix that is disrupting the soul's stability is the Hollow's soul. There has been little, if any, indication that suggested that leaving Masaki's Quincy side unchecked in the absence of some Shinigami essence would lead to death.
Look back here: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v58/c535/11.html
It is most likely the Hollow's nature that brings forth the "beast that has effectively lost the ability to use critical thinking." The strain from the resulting product being unable to interact with the external world leads to "soul suicide."
As far as we can tell, Shinigami and Quincy souls blending together, or remaining out of balance, would most likely not lead to death.
Or even if it does, why introduce another Shinigami-essence and worry about the Quincy-Shinigami balance, when Quincies and Shinigamies are fine by themselves, to begin with.
One could say that it's because Masaki's Quincy and Hollow souls are, at least, partially fused?
Hollow-Humans and Shinigami-Quincy are on two separate spectra. As I mentioned in previous posts, it is more probable that one spectrum cannot influence the other (based on the fact that the Human-Hollow balance did not become unstable with the introduction of additional Shinigami powers, or its absence, in Ichigo and Ginjo).
So why bother with the Shinigami-Quincy-balance, when the hollow corrupting her Host-Soul is the only problem here?
Why did Isshin need to make this sacrifice?
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 24, 2013 at 08:53 PM.