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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
I figured this would be the appropriate place to put this topic. So everyone keeps saying "ichigo's bankai only increases his speed." While Byakuya did note this fact, does anyone else remember Yoruichi commenting on Ichigo's bankai training? She said he was going to need more of a Reiatsu output for bankai. Therefore, it is quite possible that Ichigo's reiatsu did increase substantially from his fight with Kenpachi to his fight with Byakuya. Also I believe black getsuga tenshou is more "powerful."
On the converse its also possible that Ichigo's reiatsu was multiplied many times when he asked Zangetsu for his strength. Perhaps he has never had that much of a reiatsu output since then, and it would make sense that Kenpachi is still such a monster now. Also, if Ichigo relied on Zangetsu again, perhaps he would be able to go toe to toe with nnoi.
Overall, I think there is still much to be explained and I am hesitant to call Shinanigans just yet for KT's ~power~ consistency.
LOL "Shinanigans"? Nice portmanteau.
To be honest, if he didn't get a Reiatsu increase, a lot of his post-SS fights wouldn't make much sense. Problem is, there are just as many that support the opposite claim--that he really does just get faster. This is one of the most glaring ambiguities in the series.
On the one hand, Grimmjow saw no difference in power during their second fight, and Ichigo didn't show us one. On the other, Dordoni was evenly matched by Ichigo after he used Bankai, and said pointedly that it was enough to beat him. This is after Ichigo was getting clowned like a fool with Shikai alone. Those 2 fights showcase completely opposite scenarios with no explanation at all--it's almost like Kubo can't decide which direction to stick with, or deliberately breaks his own rules when they get in his way. (It wouldn't be the first time in the second case.)
Long story short, we have no way of knowing. And now that the Vaizard angle is being forced on us, we may never know. So I wouldn't wait up.
Well when he fought Grimmjow the second time, did they even do anything? I think he hit him with a Getsuga and then his mask broke, didn't it? Perhaps 11 seconds just wasn't enough time to showcase anything.
He used that short amount of time to nail Dordoni into submission, then the same to Ulquiora, except you know, he lost. He got healed, increasing his time limit, maybe even his reiatsu, and then beat Grimmjow.
All in all, I'd say that his Bankai increases his speed, and probably makes his zanpukto sharper and/or stronger. I'm not sure about an increase in reiatsu, though. Around the time he gained Bankai is the same time he started tapping into his hollow powers, so maybe that's the explanation.
^ Well, in the cases I cited, I was talking about how he fought without the mask on. That's where the ambiguity is.
I don't think Ichigo's reiatsu increases when he activates bankai, it apparently only provides him with speed. Like if his bankai is 5 before bankai, I don't think when he does bankai it increases to 10. The bankai training already took care of that, if his base reiatsu level is 5 bankai training just increases it, and the new level becomes his base, at least that's my take.
Ichigo's bankai is pretty much just a change of clothing now-a-days. His bankai is different from most other Shinigami, in that it's a compression of his power, which supposedly gives him "speed beyond flash-steps". Yoruichi stated that a Shinigami's bankai increases their power by 5 to 10 times that of Shikai, so I think we can assume there is some increase in Ichigo's strength as well as speed.
I'm supposing because of Ichigo's victory against Byakuya (an extremely powerful Shinigami), Tite realized the main character's ability to exceed flash steps was just too powerful, so it hasn't been mentioned since. Of course, now we have the problem that his bankai becomes rather pathetic, doing absolutely nothing against an unreleased Grimmjow. Where's the speed now?
Without a heaven-and-earth power difference, Kubo would have to think deeply on how each Espada fight would go. He wouldn't be able to defer to the Hollow mask and bigger GetsuTens, or a random back-and-forth street fight--tactics would be much more important. It'd would've been great to see how Grimmjow dealt with someone way faster than him, or if Ulquiorra couldn't block Ichigo's attacks with his face, because there'd be no easy or clear-cut answers involved. That's how most of my favorite fights in the series are.
But Kubo doesn't seem to like that. Bleach isn't exactly amenable to RPG-type imbalances or depth--it's all flashy black-and-white stuff, as far as the fights are concerned. So having all these fights built around power-ups instead of strategy doesn't really surprise me. :/
Ichigo's Reiatsu stayed the same during his entire training, except in the Anime where he just suddenly gets more, because he decided to.
His Reiatsu, power and everything except his speed stays the same even Grimjaw states that when he fights Ichigo the first time. Grimjaw is probably the fastest of the Espada.
However lets say Ichigo is normally an 8 on the speed scale where Byakuya is about a 9 and Yoruichi is a 10. Ichigo using his Bankai can decapitate Byakuya while Byakuya is still blinking. Later on its not Byakuya getting faster its the damage Ichigo is taking from using his Bankai thats slowing him down.
His Bankai is a power increase simply because in the span it takes for one of the fastest Captains to blink Ichigo can launch off a couple dozen attacks.
Ichigo also can barely even use his Bankai, and he has really Barely even scratched the surface of what he can do while he is Masked.
Byakuya has been spending a couple thousand years developing his Bankai into the weapon it is today. While Ichigo he barely even has had it for more then a couple months.
Almost forgot Ichigo's Bankai does not compress its powers it compresses the Form. Ichigo has a tiny Bankai, because he compressed it down to make its ultra high speed combat possible. You can't move superfast swinging a skyscraper.
Last edited by Decorus; February 21, 2008 at 12:09 AM.
The thing is, Ichigo already had the reiatsu of a Captain before he even started the bankai training. Yoruichi said his power could go up 5-10x in bankai training but that's probably incorporating normal bankai training where you train for 10 years and gain experience. He justs wants to achieve bankai only and not train for 10 years and his bankai ended up only giving him speed.
Too bad those battles are mostly one sided. There is no struggle. One is dominating than the other.
I liked that exchange between Grimmjaw and Ulquiorra. Awesome.
Too bad Ichigo doesn't have more interesting fighting style. Little versatillity wouldn't be bad. This way it's only moving, slashing and Gatsuga.
Was it only in the anime where Yoruichi said "you're gonna need more reiatsu if you want bankai" and then timeskip -> bankai. I took that to mean he gained the 5-10x boost in reiatsu which we see him "powering up" with right before he swings zangetsu forward and yells bankai.
It's really weird some aspects about his bankai, mainly because when first Ichigo Achieved Bankai is SS , he was a total badass in the rukia's rescue, but in the arrancar saga, where is his badassness? When Ichigo changed to bankai against Griimjow , there's no one difference , in power or speed , in the first and second fight with grimmjow, Ichigo was beaten badly, even with bankai, but in the third one, he was able to match equally Grimmjow with bankai...
I think a major point to show here is about his "will"; here, his will is make a big difference , mainly about the reiatsu in bankai: when he is decided to fight with strong will, his reiatsu just increases greatly , like vs Byakuya and 3º fight Grimmjow, but in other hand, when he fought with fear(yammi, 1º fight griimjow)he was defeated)
My point is: the reiatsu of Ichigo depends mainly from his "Will", the training is important , but not that important as his Will
Actually in the Anime she said the same thing in the Manga. In the Anime we have a filler sequence before Renji leaves where he is holding a broken sword, then for no apparent reason other then Ichigo was determined to reach Bankei his Reiatsu jumped massively.
In the manga she was mentioning that while his fighting skills were increasing rapidly his reiatsu was not changing at all so she was concerned he would not complete Bankai training.
Its fairly evident that Ichigo started the Manga with Captain level Reiatsu how else can you explain his sudden massive reiatsu leaps in desperate moments. Its not training its Ichigo using his existing Reiatsu better.
They even hint at that when he wounded the Menos Grande that Ichigo is only using the smallest trickle of his actual reiatsu normally.