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Zoro obviously has no feats in terms of speed as he has never shown to surpass any fast character in terms of speed or use something like Soru. And I believe it's quite obviously that even Sanji is faster than Zoro, but Luffy was always considerably faster than any of them before timeskip with his Gear Second.
And I'm taling about the moment, when Luffy was supposed to be caught in an explosion from point blanck, but then it was shown that he not only escaped from it (and it was quite huge), but also managed to practically warp a considerable space and get behind Caesar without any problems and laughing at the same time and Francky and Robin even noted his enormous speed and he wasn't even in full Gear Second, but only using his partial Gear Second, so it wasn't his full speed.
I beg you pardon, his speed is excellent or he wouldn't be able to use his three swords for fighting like that. Let me remind you of how fast he was to defeat Hyouzou, in an instant.
Kaku was soru user. Yet Zoro was able to match his speed and eventually able beat him.
The idea that "only by using a fast movement technique ur are fast" is dead wrong. Coby used soru against Luffy, yet Luffy got him without Gear 2. Soru is just a technique, it might be advanced than normal running/walking. However you don't necessarily need to use the same technique as the opponent to beat him. Its like saying only swordsmen can beat swordsmen. That way of thinking is fundamentally wrong.
Zoro never showed to move at the level of Soru. The thing he did against Kaku was barely able to counter his countless Rankiaku's. He wasn't actually moving at great speed. He just closed all the space around him with his three swords and didn't permit Rankiakus and sword slashes to go through. That's an absolutely different thing compared to actually moving at the speed of Soru like Luffy or Sanji do. And also there is also a difference between Soru users. Of course the difference between the same Kaku and Lucci was considerable as Lucci had twice the same ammount of Douriki in his base form and he had way more when in his Zoan form and his Zoan was the most developed among CP9 as Lucci used it from his childhood.
The difference, why Zoro didn't need the same or higher speed than Haku is that he was basically around the same level in overall power, thus he managed to put a good fight without speed feats, but if you compare Luffy vs Lucci, where we see that speed really counts as Lucci's speed was considerably over Luffy's, so he needed to evolve with his Gear Second and push himself more and more over his limits and also Lucci was considerably stronger than Luffy from the begining, so of course speed played even greater role in such a case.
I agree that knowing Soru doesn't always indicate that you will speedblitz your opponent, but still when your speed is considerably faster than your opponent's, then you'll dominate him as he won't be able to counterattack or react to your attack. And when you aren't only considerably faster, but also stronger, then it will show even more dominance over your opponent.
The thing is that Luffy was considerably faster than other Strawhats before timeskip, when he used his Gear Second, but now he is way beyond this difference as it was even mentioned by Franky and Robin and he is only using his partial Gear Second, so he can go even beyond the speed he showed for now. While Zoro didn't show any speed feats like Luffy or even Sanji in this department.
P.S. Also The argument that only swordsman can beat another swordsman was always the basic argument why Zoro is on par or stronger than Luffy.
Last edited by Jorge D. Dragon; July 06, 2012 at 12:04 PM.
Zoro not having a named technique to move at high speeds is overall not important and does not say much IMO. Zoro ultimately had no trouble keeping up with transformed kaku, its not like zoro was immediately cornered by him. Most of the trouble he had was with the random stuff kaku did mid fight basically. To be fair, zoro gave hyozo the fodder treatment and he was someone even luffy acknowledge to be strong even before his transformation. There is no basis to say luffy is in any particular area significantly stronger than luffy. I don't honestly think luffy has ever been significantly stronger than zoro for that matter.
Actually Zoro was utterly trashed by Kuma and he didn't even need to show his actual power, so your argument is quite invalid. And how come nothing doesn't prove that Luffy is faster than Zoro. It's quite obvious.
I agree that if you don't have named tech to move at the speed of Soru it isn't always a proof that you can't move at its speed, but Zoro never showed to be as fast as Soru as he mostly didn't need to move fast as his opponents either were as fast as he or he just surrounded himself with his swords in a round defense (the way he fought Kaku).
The thing is that actually transformed Kaku was quite a fail. While in terms of raw power he was obviously stronger than in his normal form and of course he managed to do more Rankiakus at the same time, but he didn't have any control over it and thus mostly goofed, while the same Lucci or even Jabura had more control over their Zoans and thus not only got their raw power higher with transformations, but also speed, durability and versatility of their techs. And even though Kaku wasn't that impressive in his Zoan as other high-tier CP9 members, Zoro still was on defense most of the time and also didn't show any speed fits.
I can't agree with you on Hyozou's matter. I think you are totally overstimating him and especially Luffy's statement about him. Luffy just mentioned that they guy isn't as fodderish to be one-shotted by him. That's all about it. Do you believe any of the Strawhats apart from Luffy would be able to take down transformed Hodi? I really doubt it. Especially when Luffy managed to actually fight him in water for the most part, so Luffy obviously wasn't at his best (I would even dare to say that if the fight was only on land Luffy would have trashed Hodi in a blink of an eye with his real power). I believe Hodi in his last transformed form would be at least as strong as all his Leutenants and maybe even Hyozou combined at least in terms of durability, raw strength and destructive power.
And obviously I can't agree that Luffy and Zoro are equal or not that distant. I believe it was quite obvious that Luffy had always fought the strongest guys in the Arc that no other could handle, while Zoro fought only the second strongest guys. And I obviously don't believe that Zoro could handle any of Luffy's opponents. I actually doubt Zoro can handle Croc or Moria even now if you ask me.
I don't think I am underestimating hodi. The guy started out as cannon fodder and after his transformation he turned into a punching bag. I mean, we have luffy admitting hoyzo was strong after the guy was able to block a gear two punch from him and then we have hodi (pre transformation) who got one shoted by zoro underwater. How can we conceivably argue hyozo is nothing short of IMMENSELY stronger than hodi? If both of them underwent the same transformation then the difference should remain the same (although it did seem their respective biology as fishmen played a part here). In this regard, I would argue that luffy, zoro, sanji, brook and franky would give hodi the fodder treatment in a land fight. Robin probably wouldn't do so well as she would take any damage that her limbs take. Chopper's monster form would at least be a good match IMO. At least it took out one of hodi's subordinates in one shot. As for ussop, well, he would have trouble but he could put up a fight. He has a pretty huge arsenal to say the least. Nami would be in trouble but I would argue it depends on the actual level of weather control she has. She didn't show much back at fishman island but I think it is possible she has a much greater degree of control than what we have seen. As for a water fight, I would argue that luffy is basically the least appropriate enemy for him. Out of the monster trio I would argue that in a similar fight sanji would have the easiest fight considering that even in that scenario he should be much faster than hodi. At least IMO sanji with bluewalk should be much faster than zoro underwater. Diable jambe would be hell for hodi. Hodi might have been resistant against punches but would that apply to swords? I doubt it, zoro would have actually had an easier time than luffy against underwater hodi IMO. Franky actually has a robot body, it should be the best suited for a deep pressure fight. His lazer should be just as effective whether the fight is underwater or on land for that matter. And for all we know he has some underwater functionality lol. Brook would loose here though, he wouldn't have much mobility even though his sword and ice powers would be very effective.
Crocodile and moria are the worst comparison's possible here. Luffy got the fodder treatment from crocodile 2 times before he had a break and even then he only won because crocodile barely did the stuff he did before and suddenly luffy was able to punch for no reason at all through dehydrating sand blades. As for moria, luffy barely fought the guy. The one moment they had some one on one moria beat the crap out of luffy easily and luffy barely landed one hit. Then we have moria running from luffy and luffy being unable to catch up to him. Then we have nightmare luffy against oz and dealing a powerful blow against moria himself. Adding the shadows did not actually even make moria stronger, he lost his sanity and could barely hold the power. IMO if at that point luffy and moria had a straight fight I would argue it would be moria who comes out on top.
We actually saw luffy and zoro fight a while back and the two of them seemed largely even. IMO if they fought now the fight would be largely just about as even.
---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------
As for the kaku bit, he was a newbi with his fruit but overall most of the stuff he tried was actually effective, I don't see how we can call this "goofing off". In any scenario kaku was still the second strongest in CP9 and his rokushiki mastery was the real deal. It would make little sense for him to have gotten slower with his hybrid form for that matter, if anything the longer legs and animal muscles would have made him faster. And even with all the nonsense which kaku pulled which damaged zoro the guy never got a speed edge over zoro. Zoro was always able to go up against him in straight fights.
Last edited by kkck; July 07, 2012 at 08:35 PM.
I very much doubt that if Luffy and Zoro were to fight right now, in a serious death match that Zoro would be able to keep up with Luffy. Luffys mastery over Haki would essentially make all of Zoros moves pointless.
And even underwater, Luffy was still able to trash a transformed Hodi. Zoro doesnt get any weaker underwater while Luffy gets significantly weaker.
And when Crocodile was fighting Luffy the 3rd time round, Luffy used his blood inorder to be able to hit Croc. (might be different in the Manga).
There is no point in matching them up underwater. Zorro's swords would cut open a bubble, if he had one; in the one fight he had with fodder Hody, his only weakness was his breath. I hope you have read the chapter jaymizzo, as the anime episode was fillerish BS of the highest order.
Last edited by Schabrak; July 08, 2012 at 11:15 PM.
In the manga the fight was basically the same but it does not change that it made no sense. Crocodile neglected to actually do the stuff which he did before, the poison on his hook did not work for no reason at all and on top of that luffy somehow punched through a sand sword which should have dehydrate him even if he was wet (since the thing was supposed to absorb water to begin with). The fight made no sense at all and crocodile acted stupidly in the last moments.
And to what level of mastery is his haki? Which is an important factor.
---------- Post added at 01:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------
Yes, but what Haki though and whats his mastery over it?Quote:
Luffy has mastered kenubshoku haki and Zoro is a physical fighter (with his swords) even if he uses his projectile attacks Luffy should still be able to easily evade them. Mastery is an important factor here.Quote:
I never implied that he did. My fault for not making it clear in which way i meant.Quote:
Its not confirmed that Hyozo is in any way as powerful as Hodi and hanging on Luffys statement really doesnt mean much.Quote:
For all we know Luffy could have simply judged him by the fact that he didnt knock him out off the bat.
Call it CIS or PIS if you will, its common in Mangas or comics. There are moments where opponents have failed to do A or B even though they possess the power against Zoro too... Im sureQuote:
- How do you compare Luffy's mastery, which isn't the best itself as mentioned by Luffy and Oda to Zorro's, who's confirmed to a haki user but hold back in it's usage for a later situation? If anything it's a hint that he's capable of using it for first mate/vice-boss character in the New World, which are all likely capable of using haki to some degree or need to be fought with haki because of their powers.
- Luffy is not immune to swords/cutting objects and never will be, especially Zorro's, that's not even an assumption, it should be a fact to make sense for the manga.
- You assume that Luffy would be able to evade, so express it like that instead of stating it as being proven or even could be proven.
- Hyouzou was the best swordsman of FI before they arrived there, Hody on the other hand needed to use steroids for all of his fights. This speaks volumes about their capabilities. While Zorro trashed the best swordsman without any effort, Hody took a beating through every stage he has gone through. Never forget that he was the loser, that fled the battlefield, into water, which doubled his feats and halfs a human ones[water, pressure, weakness to DFs].
- It's neither confirmed that Hodi was comparable to Hyoizous initial strength/speed.
- So Luffy's judgement is negligible compared to yours is? I'm not sure if I can take you serious with that kind of statement. Oda won't drop a line like that for nothing. It's just that Zorro was that much better than the best of FI.
Last edited by Schabrak; July 09, 2012 at 07:47 AM.
Until Zoro shows his capabilities with Haki, it is nothing more than speculation as to how good he is with it or how strong it will turn out to be. Its like your trying to suggest that Zoro is much more proffecient with Haki than Luffy isQuote:
Not once did i even imply that Luffy is immune to swords or cutting objects. Please show me where i even said this...Quote:
Well with kenbunsaki haki its essentially a fact that he could evade the strikes.Quote:
And what if he was the best swordsman? How much competition does he have down there? Its like saying Nami is the best navigator in the strawhats crew. She has no competition.Quote:
Luffy still managed to beat a bumped up Hodi underwater. Where he is significantly weaker than Zoro. And Hodi faced tough opponents in Zoro and Luffy. Had Luffy gone after Hyouzu im certain the result would be the exact same as Zoro vs Hyouzou.
Is this a serious reply? Things dont have to be spilled out for you inorder for you to make a comparison. So far all you are going with is Luffys statement and thats about it.Quote:
You cant hang on to every statement any character makes and use it as a fact. Him saying Hyouzu was strong is not a testimony for Luffy himself being weak or a complete hype up of Zoro being a God.Quote:
- How did you come to this conclusion: "Zoro is a physical fighter (with his swords) even if he uses his projectile attacks Luffy should still be able to easily evade them"? Your belittlement of Zorro, I can't bear it and there seems no way to make you understand that your statement is based on your own imagination and has no basis on the manga. If you really think that Luffy has such an advantage over Zoro... all hope is over, his status as first mate and future best swordsman of the world has to end right here and now.
- So now that Luffy has CoO he evades every single attack from a non CoO user till the end of OP? No he does not, he's able to move mid-air and is fast, but let's keep it at that.
- It's important because it shows that he was better or comparable to Arlong/Hacchi ten years ago with enough time to grow. We don't know if he did or not, just as we don't know how he compared to Hody.
- Luffy was in a bubble, he was not significantly weaker than Zorro, he used CoA and speed to get over that hurdle. If Luffy was underwater and not in a bubble, he would simply start anchoring. The water took some of his strength, but it didn't seem to matter anymore once he's gone on trashing Hody again. Is there a hint that Zorro couldn't have defeated Hody on land, as a fight in in a bubble would put him at a far great disadvatage than Luffy.
- I rather hang on what I've seen in manga and the characters honest statements than yours.Spoiler: Let me remind you of the Zoro-Hody fight, which consisted of two pages and nothing more. show
And since you've missed out on Thriller Bark, you've also missed out on one of the most important scenes for Zorro. Again be done with all of the plot before you start arguing about characters please.
Last edited by Schabrak; July 09, 2012 at 09:43 AM.