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Translations: Bleach 595 (2)
Guys, I've just saw a similar topic in BleachAsylum, and I couldn't find anything like that here, then I'll create here as well:
Urahara hid the Hougyoku in Rukia's Gigai, but how much time has passed since then?
Did Urahara knew something about Aizen's plans to hide Hougyoku? If I remember correctly Aizen's words "Urahara hid Hougyoku in Rukia, but I only could manage to found out when she was hiding in Human world"
But wait, when Rukia went to Human World, Aizen still hadn't betrayed SS!! Then exactly why did Urahara hid the hougyoku, even before aizen's rebellion?, And why choose Rukia as a host to Hougyoku, I'm thinking about that right now and maybe we can get another chain of plot twist here??
Please, feel free to discuss!
Urahara and Isshin have known about Aizen's plans for a long time (since before Ichigo was born, I'm sure). I believe that Masaki is tied into this somehow as well. Isshin is clearly a member of the Shiba clan (he and his children look so similar to the rest). And I'm pretty sure that Masaki is related to Aizen.
Anyhow, I bet that Urahara invented the Hougyoku for an entirely different purpose, but realized its true potential almost immediately. Once he realized it, he tried to destroy it, but couldn't. So he did the next best thing: hid it somewhere only he would be able to find it.
What I want to know is how Aizen figured out where it was!
was so that when Rukia's spiritual power was completely depleted, she would a human spirit, sealing away the Hogyoku forever.
No one knew of Aizen's plans, not even Urahara. Urahara thought the Hogyoku was dangerous after he created it. This whole business with Rukia in the gigai is really not evidence of something wrong with the timeline, rather it shows just how long Urahara has been planning to put the scheme of hiding the Hogyoku in some shinigami and the lengths for which he was willing to go to hide it.
Urahara was sent into exile for creating a gigai that is untraceable and drains away the reiatsu of the shinigami. This is something that was thought to be impossible; so, for Urahara to have created such a gigai would probably be something that he would have to actively try to do and because of this apparently voluntary act, which would only hurt SS, he was likely for this reason exiled. This was all a part of Urahara's plan. He would go into exile with the Hogyoku, and when the opportunity would arise where he could use his untraceable gigai on some unwitting shinigami, he would hide the Hogyoku in that person so that the Hogyoku would be lost forever.
Urahara purposefully went into exile with this plan in mind, enacting it coincidentally about 100 years after his exile on Rukia coincidentally and starting the whole plot of Bleach.
As for how Aizen figured all of this out, my guess is that he read Urahara's records and then figured out Urahara's plan from there.
I'm also sure that we'll find out that Masaki and Aizen are related. Look at the hair!
Besides, if Urahara didn't know Aizen's plans from the start, why wasn't he surprised to find all of this out? He's known for a long time, just like the Vaizards.
Sode no Shirayuki is not the "whitest" zanpakuto. It is said to be the most beautiful ice/snow type in SS, and the entire sword is entirely white. There could be other zanpakuto that are also completely white. Whether there are whiter zanpakuto or not, that has not been shown in any way to be of any relevance to the Hogyoku being placed in her.Quote:
They both have wavy hair of the same shade. Lots of characters have black pointy hair like Tatsuki, Kaien, Karin, etc. Are they related? If the only thing that you are basing this relationship between the two on is the hair, then I find your theory tenuous at best.
That, however, is besides the point. My original response to you bringing up this supposed Masaki-Aizen connection was what did it have to do with the Hogyoku and Urahara placing it in Rukia. I still don't see the connection, and you still have not offered any reason why that would even be relevant to this topic.
How do you know that he was not surprised when he found out Aizen was deceiving SS and was after the Hogyoku all along? He wasn't present when Aizen's plot was revealed, and there was plenty of time for news of what had happened to have reached him. By the time Ichigo and company return to the human world, it would make sense that Urahara had already found out the events of what had transpired in SS; otherwise, he would not have been known to be there to greet them after Ichigo's party left through the dimensional gate.Quote:
Again, Urahara just allowing Aizen's plans to be carried out while he had full knowledge of what was going on does not make sense. Urahara would not have simply let Aizen manipulate SS from the shadows as the Central 46 this whole time if he had known. What would have been the point of that?
It's easy to just state theories, but theories don't mean much without support to back them up. You have offered no support (manga citations, logical rationalizations, etc.) for your claims. I would be more understanding if you would provide some sort of reasoning behind your claims.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/13/) Why would Urahara wait years just to hide the Hougyoku in Rukia's soul? I understand that if it's in Rukia, then he doesn't have it, but we don't know the whole story yet so it's hard to tell. Regardless, the way Aizen talks about the creation and subsequent attempts at destroying and then hiding the Hougyoku makes it sound to me like many of these events happened very close to each other. I could be wrong.
I believe that this knowledge has something to do with the connection between Aizen and Masaki. Could also be the reason why Grand Fisher killed Masaki. I think Grand Fisher is one of Aizen's inventions (he can hide his spiritual pressure like a shinigami).
Anyhow, it's pretty clear to me that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes regarding Isshin, Urahara, and Aizen. I believe that Masaki is the missing link, and as soon as we find out what the connection is, it will be clear why Urahara attempted to hide the Hougyoku in Rukia.
Not sure what else to say to back up my theories. I don't really feel like arguing them that much, I'm not married to them.
Oh and I don't think that Urahara and Isshin are keeping Aizen's plans a secret. We know that, from the beginning, these two characters were on the bad side of Soul Society. Why would Yamamoto listen to them when it seems like they are the ones that are defecting, etc. Who knows? Maybe Aizen is the one who manipulated things to get Urahara and Isshin banished in the first place.
Isshin may not have been banished. For all we know, he could have faked his death and given up the 11th division's captain seat to Kenpachi. Urahara's portable gigai, anyone?
Last edited by brownbt; March 19, 2008 at 05:16 PM.
Here, Aizen says that Urahara's motives for giving Rukia that particular gigai, the one for which he was exiled, to hide the Hougyoku forever. If he had placed the Hougyoku in her about a hundred years ago, then he would have needed to have placed her in the gigai then as well, but that did not happen until near the start of Bleach, suggesting that Hougyoku was not placed in Rukia until then.
Now, exactly why would Urahara wait so long to implement this next step in his plan is unknown. Perhaps, he wanted to lie low for a while, thinking that it would be too suspicious if he tries to make a shinigami disappear with the untraceable gigai he just made and got banished for, as it would be too much of a giveaway. The most obvious reason is that it is just matter of convenience that allows for plot to take place.
It was not merely a matter of hiding the Hougyoku in someone but rather hiding in a shinigami in the special gigai that was the important part. Only then could he be sure that there would be no chance of anyone ever finding it again.
The sequence of statements Aizen does suggest chronological order, but taking into account Aizen's entire monologue and not just that one page, it becomes apparent that Urahara wanted to place the Hougyoku in a place where it would remain forever hidden, within the spirit of a shinigami that would become a human through his invention of the untraceable gigai.
Your suggestion that Urahara placed the Hougyoku in Rukia long before Rukia ever entered the special gigai does not take into account how crucial being in the gigai was Urahara's plan.
Perhaps, there is some relation there, but I wouldn't get so gung ho about it until something more than just the hair substantiates your claim, as their numerous examples of characters who look more I alike than just their hair in manga series having nothing to do with each other.Quote:
Urahara and Isshin have some sort of history together, and it is not farfetched for Urahara to have met Masaki or at least have knowledge of her. Urahara definitely already knew Aizen, as Aizen has been around in SS during the time when Urahara was a captain. That's as far as any connection can be made without jumping to any hair-brained (pun intended ) conclusion.Quote:
There has been no evidence that Urahara knew that Aizen was after the Hougyoku. Before Aizen's plan was revealed, no one knew that he was involved in anything shady. Everyone thought highly of him. For Urahara to be the only person to have divined this somehow is highly unlikely and would unnecessarily cheapen the brilliance of Aizen's ruse, since Urahara knowing adds nothing to the story; in fact, if Urahara had suspected Aizen of lusting for the power of the Hougyoku, others would also have been more suspect of his character.Quote:
There is also no evidence as of yet to suggest that Grand Fisher killing Masaki was a part of some master plan. When Grand Fisher first confronted Ichigo, he revealed how he had been doing that same act to lure and kill many young women.Quote:
When Grand Fisher comes back later as an arrancar, he does not claim to have been in the service of Aizen all along. He is said by Urahara's anaylsis (which more than likely is correct, given Grand Fisher serves no more importance to the plot now that he's gone for good) to be probably just a test of the Hougyoku's abilities.
Grand Fisher does not seem to be one of Aizen's inventions. His murder of Masaki seems like just a random killing that happened to lay the seeds for hero who would strive to bring an end to his kind in a Batman-esque fashion.
Is there more going on regarding Isshin and Urahara? Yes. We've seen as much in the manga. Is there more going on regarding them and Aizen? Such a relationship has yet to be established. Masaki does not seem to have any relevance in current affairs, but I would also enjoy if somewhere down the line she turns out to have some sort of relevance.Quote:
As for why Urahara hid the Hougyoku in Rukia, she was just the unwitting shinigami he approached with the gigai. There has been no indication that she has some sort of special qualities that made her a better candidate than anyone else. So far, everything that has presented so far suggests that random factors came together like Rukia specifically (as opposed to just someone else at some other time) being in the gigai or Rukia coming across Ichigo in the first place to start off the story.
I commend you for giving more support for your arguments so that I could understand why you thought the way you did. I don't think that you are correct, but I respect your right to your own opinion. I am also not argumentative person, but when you post your ideas on a forum, you are thus inviting others to critique and respond to your ideas.Quote:
Urahara has shown no evidence of knowing Aizen's plans. If he did know them and somehow sent word to Yamamoto of this, I don't think Yamamoto would simply dismiss them, as Urahara is still viewed as a competent and revered scientist by SS, evidenced by SS requesting Urahara's services post-SS arc. If any doubt had been cast on Aizen, especially something as large as him controlling Central 46 or going after the Hougyoku and thus obviously after Rukia, his plans would have fallen through.Quote:
We don't know the circumstances surrounding Isshin. He may not be banished at all. Whether he faked his death or something else, he has no established connection to Aizen or the events that took place in SS. Again, it is even less feasible for Isshin to have had knowledge of Aizen's plans than Urahara.
We have at least two problems with the thought that Urahara hid the Hogyoku in Rukia’s soul a long time ago – motive and opportunity.
As the original poster pointed out, there doesn’t seem any clear motive for choosing Rukia as the vessel to hide the Orb of Distortion within. Especially when any number of other shinigami could potentially serve the same purpose. One can argue that she was back then unremarkable as a shinigami and blended in. That however falls down; somebody adopted into the Kuchiki clan isn’t the best candidate for unremarkable.
Opportunity is even less clear. Before she was posted to Karakura town was Rukia ever in the vicinity, either in support to other shinigami or during training? That seems a stretch. And if Urahara did employ his method of implanting an object in somebody’s soul in this time, given the method of REMOVING something from a person’s soul, that doesn’t seem like it would go unnoticed!
Coming forward to the present when Rukia loses her spiritual powers in transferring them to Ichigo. What we have now is Rukia stranded with no powers, a felon – in Soul Society terms – for what she has just done. A perfect opportunity knocking on Urahara’s doorstep! No problem, here, have a gigai. (If we install this Orb too, well, who’s to know?) She must necessarily lay low for now, keep under Soul Society’s radar, and conveniently this also means Urahara can by his own means keep a close eye on what goes on with her.
And Urahara WOULD keep a close eye out. More than the gigai, more than any other creation of his, he knows what he has created here, if he has already tried the process of destroying the Orb. Failing, hiding is the next best thing. To install it in a soul going back to Soul Society is too chancy - but one confined to his own backyard, better. So if he had to wait for the right opportunity to come along, he waited. More likely he is going to keep the Hogyoku close at hand than leave it randomly lying around to chance discovery. Until he has a means to permanently resolve the situation.
Rukia, needing a gigai, needing to keep a low profile, was that means.
But no plan is perfect, and we can blame a certain Quincy for stirring up matters in Karakura town sufficiently to gain unwarranted, unwanted attention.
Then the unimaginable happens and Rukia is taken back. Ordinarily one wouldn’t think that it should trouble an ex-Captain too much; these are the affairs of Soul Society, and he has passed a long time in exile not bothering himself much about that. But when the fugitive houses the one thing he has taken such trouble to dispose of safely – that’s when he has to take definite, decisive measures. Which in this case was Ichigo.
That, I believe, is Urahara’s position.
For Aizen’s part, his various researches uncovered the Hogyoku and the means to hide objects in souls. Aizen also knew of the gigai – either through general knowledge as a Captain regarding Urahara’s exile, or also via his research. He knows that Urahara must necessarily hide the Orb or keep it close, being unable to destroy it.
Aizen has that rare intelligence to understand the creations that came from Urahara’s mind – and how they could be applied. So putting two and two together, guessing at the ideal way to hide the Orb permanently, he bides his time, keeping an eye on Urahara by the happenings in Karakura Town where the ex-Captain set up shop.
Normal happenings go unremarked. But when something happens that is in any way out of the ordinary, then Aizen sits up and takes notice. The shinigami posted there goes missing? Maybe, just maybe Urahara has done the unthinkable. He suspects it. Then the bad Quincy stirs things up. Investigations are made, Rukia is sighted. Now it is confirmed she has stayed on earth this long – a gigai is in order, and where is the only place around Karakura such a thing is available?
Even if not one hundred percent certain, Aizen could certainly make an educated guess that Rukia was now the recipient of the grand prize, one shining Orb, and acted on that.
Cue the slaying of Central 46 and all that follows.
Anyway, that’s my take on what has happened here, I think it fits the facts we have available. Tear away!
If that was the case then why didn't Aizen discover the Orb before then. Aizen had been hunting for it for some time before Rukia entered the human world and gave her powers to Ichigo. Its entirely possible she already was concealing it since she could never become a ranked officer thanks to Byakuya's attempts to protect her.
Why didn't Urahara conceal it earlier since he knew how dangerous it was. If Urahara was simply holding on to it then why was it so difficult to find Aizen obviously knew that Urahara was in the Human world and I think the first place I'd go looking is his shop. So its likely Urahara concealed it into her as soon as he discovered he could not destroy it. The Gigai was just added cake later to ensure its permanent destruction once she became a human again. Since its obvious at that moment he knew someone was looking for it. He especially was aware of that once he found out she had been captured by Soul Society and taken back.
Which leads to another series of questions why didn't they hunt down Urahara or Isshin or Yoruchi and force them back for trial?
First, it is Urahara who has hidden the Orb or has it in his keeping – something so dangerous he would not let slip from his grasp or influence until he felt sure he had a final solution, as per my previous post. Aizen has researched Urahara’s work extensively; he knows what the ex-Captain is capable of. If Aizen did seriously think he could have the Orb or its location from the creator then he would – by whatever means – have acted to obtain it. That WOULD be easier than tying Soul Society in knots as he did.
Second, Aizen knows what the Hogyoku DOES but does he know what it IS? On first holding it in his hand he is surprised, remarking how small it is. Not knowing the exact nature of the object, it is necessary to bide his time and be patient, until he feels sure he knows where it is – in Rukia.
Waiting until he suspected Urahara had placed the Orb within somebody’s soul, Aizen overcomes both of these difficulties at once. Removed from Urahara and his area of influence, Karakura, the vessel is essentially defenseless. And whatever is within that vessel is, surely, the Orb.
It is unlikely Rukia already had the Orb within her, prior to coming to Earth, again as per my earlier post. Urahara had scant opportunity to conceal the Orb within her, having had no real access to Rukia – that we know of – before she was posted to Karakura. (This is a definite question of timing - has someone the relevant chapters/references to hand? Urahara is exiled before Rukia is even in training to become a shinigami?) More, even unseated in the 13th Division as Rukia was, as a Kuchiki she was by no means as insignificant as many other unranked and easily overlooked shinigami, who would make subtler vessels to hide his most dangerous creation.
I suspect that Urahara was unaware of Aizen’s designs prior to his open betrayal of Soul Society. Nobody else picked up on it either, until it was too late. Rukia being taken back could have just been freakish bad chance – remembering the attention the whole Menos Grande incident drew to Karakura – or something more. Either way, the Hogyoku was gone and that itself was reason enough to act – to send Ichigo after her. But if Urahara seriously knew or suspected that somebody was after the Orb of Distortion, it makes no sense to even allow the possibility it would be gone from his control – and Rukia may have been spared.
And as the thought occurs to me, we don’t even know all the properties of the Hogyoku. Range and power, for instance. (No good standing beside Yamamoto, for example, if twice a Captain’s spirit pressure is going to make the Orb do all sorts of interesting things!) If the Orb is likely to affect or corrupt those shinigami near to the vessel then it makes real sense NOT to be storing it within a shinigami soul in the first place. Rukia on Earth, however, is well away from all of that, and until Soul Society snatched her back, was ideally destined to remain so. Harsh as it is, Rukia losing all chance of being a shinigami again was a small price to pay against hiding the Orb forever.
As to Isshin, Yoruichi and Urahara? Do we know of any signficant crimes Isshin and Yoruichi have committed, any compelling cause to drag them back? Simply leaving Soul Society is not necessarily a great crime in itself? As for Urahara, for what he created he WAS dealt with – he is exiled, and unlike Yoruichi does not appear to be able to enter or leave Soul Society on a whim.
Last edited by nordicbattlesigns; March 20, 2008 at 03:20 AM.
The problem with your theory is all Urahara did was give her the Gigai, we never saw him insert the orb into her. So its likely that she already had it. It also might explain why Ichigo went all Vaizard when he earned his own shinigami powers.
Although we did not see Urahara place the Hogyoku in Rukia, I am sure Rukia probably did not see it either. It is possible that when he gave her the gigai, he somehow got the Hogyoku into her at that time as well. Plus, I don't think we were ever meant to see Urahara place the Hogyoku inside of her to begin with; that would have ruined the big reveal later on near the end of SS arc.
I do like the idea that Ichigo’s Vizard powers came from Rukia having the Hogyoku within her, either when powers were transferred to him in the first place, or through their close proximity later – closet accommodation, anyone? But we also have flaws with the theory.
If simply being close to the Orb is all that’s needed to alter Ichigo, then surely other shinigami would also be displaying Vizard tendencies or a hollowish trait or two? We see nothing of the sort after Rukia is taken back to Soul Society. At a guess, either some nameless guards or Hanataro himself would be near her the most, in her original cell – and Hanataro certainly has shown no signs of being Vizard material! Nor did Ichigo show any hollow traits until after the Shattered Shaft. Is that last point just a matter of timing?
Perhaps it takes an additional influence to make the Orb work its mojo properly? Say a sufficient spiritual pressure, of which Ichigo is the obvious source? Whether that DOES qualify as sufficient or not, bearing in mind Aizen’s oft-bandied about “twice the average captain” figure, I don’t know. However it does bear thinking about.
Then Rukia comes to class and strange things start happening. Chad and Orihime end up gaining powers that are hollowish or shinigami in nature (or a mix of both) with more classmates to possibly follow. Ususally it is suggested that Ichigo’s own immense spiritual power awoke powers in them, but is that sufficient to explain it? Strong background reiatsu PLUS an Orb conveniently close does seem a nice theory. Makes shinigami closer to hollow and vice versa – but how would it affect pure humans who are in those terms neutral? The results can be unpredictable, which seems precisely what we see.
This idea does feel familiar somehow, maybe it has been suggested by somebody elsewhere in the forum? Well, with the number of times some things are repeated around here, I am fairly sure it has.