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Ok...so Isshin injures Aizen in multiple forms, while Komamura's Bankai is obliterated by Aizen's one shot, but Komamura is #1 in raw power? I know you guys like Komamura and say he gets the shaft (to be fair, this is actually true), but Komamura over Yama-ji in raw power makes no sense...Isshin not being on the list makes no sense...hell, Love and Komamura together didn't damage Aizen, hahahaha...which leads me to Love not really being all that powerful either...it sucks that the Visored only got to fight against Espada 1-3 and Aizen/Gin/WW, but they didn't really show me much at all...
And Kensei even being in the discussion when he presumably got pwned in Bankai by Wonderweiss makes no sense to me as well...didn't Aizen say when Yama-ji got into the fray that the only captain left to fight was Yama-ji? I would presume he could sense if Kensei was around or not, so...I for one believe WW pwned Kensei like Mashiro, lol
Isshin injured Aizen in multiple forms? The only injury he ever gave Aizen was from the GT, which Aizen quickly regenerated from. Other than that, he managed to force Aizen to start his transformations but he never really injured him. Had Aizen used Kyouka Suigetsu on him that fight would have been over very quickly. And yes KS Aizen is way more deadlier than cocoon Aizen. Isshin was just lucky that he apparently had not been exposed to Aizen releasing KS in front of him (like Ichigo).
And what does Tengen Myou getting one-shotted by Aizen have to do with it's offensive power? For the record, that cut Aizen gave KTM was so big that it nearly sliced it in half; I'm pretty sure that attack would have wrecked Isshin as well. Until I see Isshin destroy somebodies arm by simply backhanding them, I'm going to say KTM has more power. The attack was even more impressive when you consider Kaname was hollowfied when he got hit by that (i.e. defense boost). I don't want to imagine what would happen if KTM's sword hit somebody.
Also, nobody is arguing Sajin is over Yamamoto in terms of raw power, if you'd read back a few posts you would have realized that we'd decided to excluding Aizen, Yamamoto, and FGT Ichigo.
Firstly, someone did place Yama-ji in the rankings, and you even agreed with that list, so I was disputing that...but I guess it's easier to act as if someone can't read...maybe you misread that as Yammy? (even though Yammy was right under it, lol)
Secondly, multiple forms...he injured him before going into cocoon form, with the sending through buildings, etc...
Aizen went from...
At the time he's hit, there's no damage on him...to...
Noticeably exhausted, and by his own admission, "at the end of his rope"...I'll admit though that there's no bleeding or anything like that.
He has a bruise here, but even I think that's nitpicking at this point
If KS would have helped him, he would've used it...against Yama-ji, he judged that even with KS, he would need to negate RJ or he'd still lose...obviously, he didn't think that KS would be a huge help against Isshin either...I suppose you could make the argument that he wanted to be pushed to his limit to evolve, hence him not using it, but wouldn't that mean he would've done that earlier, against Shunsui-tachi? I suppose you could make the argument that letting Shunsui attack him at will would also kill him, but we haven't seen anything to prove Shunsui has that type of power, lol
And you talk about him only forcing his transformations...Aizen wanted these transformations to occur! If he felt like Shunsui would cause that damage, he would've let him, no?
Edit #2: http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/402/18
Even Aizen says that his body was becoming more powerful by evolving, so why are we saying him with KS before evolution is way deadlier than him evolving?
Also, wasn't Ichigo watching the entire fight with Shunsui, etc.? If Shunsui's initial Kageoni stab was on Hinamori, wouldn't Ichigo have said something earlier? I'm not sure how he replaced himself with Hinamori instantly, but I don't think the evidence shows that all the attacks placed on him were on an illusion...if that was the case, Soi Fong would've killed Hinamori, no?
Now to Komamura...Tengen Myou is powerful...I agree that he gets shafted, etc., I don't hate Komamura or anything like that...but Aizen blocked and cut through it without really exerting himself...if that's Aizen's power, shouldn't Isshin had at least gotten the uber one-slash done to him during that fight? Isshin, on the other hand, damaged evolved Aizen, which is not a small feat, imo...we've seen Komamura defeat a fraccion and break an arm...and suddenly get pwned by Tousen's attack...first the sword gets cracked, then he gets pwned...maybe he was taking it easy on Tousen, but really? The anime isn't canon over the manga, no? If that's true, then Bug!Tousen vs. Komamura took one chapter...and since when does hollowifcation necessarily increase defense? Defensively speaking, doesn't it only give you high speed regeneration? I don't know for sure, but breaking someone's arm with something the size of a freaking building doesn't really impress me...
KS is uber-broken...but it would be pointless for him to have it if he wasn't already strong. It is not making him stronger, faster, or anything like that...he already had abilities that placed him at the pinnacle of his shinigami abilities...like he said, they had a different understanding of the word "power"
Last edited by UchihaHunter; November 07, 2010 at 12:27 AM.
Yeah, he tired him out; that's not the same as injuring him. Isshin looks a lot more bruised than Aizen in that last link.Quote:
I don't think it's that simple for Aizen to get someone to stare at his zanpakutou while he releases it in mid-fight. All of the other captains he defeated using KS were already previously exposed to the "ritual" so Aizen was able to start using illusions on them at any moment.Quote:
The thing is none of the others got at chance to push him to his limits because they all had to fight against his broken shikai. You're making it sound like Isshin is single-handedly stronger than all of the others who previously fought Aizen combined.Quote:
Because complete control of the 5 senses is the most broken ability ever conceived? How do you fight against someone who can control what you see, hear, touch, taste, smell? Aizen can make you believe whatever he wants. He could make you see and feel like you just lost your arm, and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Why else do you think it was written out of the story, along with Aizen's bankai (can you think of an upgrade to kanzen saimin)? If Aizen had stuck to using his zanpakutou and not screwing around with hogyouku he would have already been the next SS king.Quote:
Sure, there where a couple ways to defeat KS, like Yamamoto letting himself get stabbed to feel the reiatsu of the blade through his stomach, or Gin touching the blade before he starts using it. I doubt Isshin knew of either of those though.
Again, complete hypnosis means Aizen controls what they hear and don't hear. In other words, they wouldn't be able to hear Ichigo until Aizen wanted them to.Quote:
Well Isshin is obviously faster and more skilled than Sajin is. It doesn't seem to me like Aizen ever landed a direct hit with his sword on Isshin. Had he cut Isshin the way he did to KTM, we would have obviously noticed. I'm not trying to say that Sajin could defeat Isshin here, he's obviously couldn't, but when it comes to pure offensive power I think Komamura is the reigning champ.Quote:
Well if Kaname's mask worked anything like Ichigo's then it did increase his defense as well. We've known that at least Ichigo's mask gives him a defense boost because of Ichigo's first fight with Ulquiorra, where Ulquiorra commends Ichigo for putting on the mask at the last second to minimize the damage from his cero.Quote:
Granted that someone like Isane with KS wouldn't necessarily be the most menacing threat, but any captain level shinigami with KS would definitely become an Aizen level threat. Byakuya with KS would be pretty deadly if you ask me. Aizen is certainly a top-tier captain in terms of his skills, but fighting against another top-tier captain while he's sealed (and the other captain is in shikai or bankai) kinda levels the playing field. Which is why I said in another thread that Shinji could have probably forced Aizen into transforming if he wasn't fighting a freaking illusion the entire time. KS overrides Sakanade's inferior hypnotism, but Sakanade is still the second most broken shikai.Quote:
KS doesn't need to make Aizen stronger or faster, it basically gives him free shots at whoever he wants - which is way better.
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; November 07, 2010 at 01:24 AM.
Anyway...Yama-ji with his bare hands pwned the crap out of WW...meanwhile, good ol' supposed-badass Kensei with Bankai got off-paneled? But I'm sure you'll say that Komamura's destructive power >>>>>>>>>>> Kensei's...until we know that Kensei got taken out in another way, I don't see how we're arguing that barehanded Yama-ji is less powerful than KTM.
Yet...Aizen's the one at his limit, and again, Isshin didn't get one-shotted like Shinji. And again, initially, Shinji got his own clean hits in on Aizen! With his initial surprise attacks, shouldn't he have injured him greatly, or forced an evolution, if he was on the level of Isshin? You're grasping at straws here.Quote:
Going by feats, yes. Fresh Isshin seems to be better than injured Shunsui (although you all here make it seem like he pwned Stark, so he shouldn't be that injured), bankai (sorta exhausted, but I thought he had full petals) Hitsu, Shinji, and injured Soi Fong, put together. It took all of them together to get him to the point of using KS...I'm not sure how we can see it otherwise...Ichigo was watching the fight and not under KSQuote:
You know Aizen's powers better than he does? I'm not disagreeing that it's broken, because it is. But obviously, he wasn't even the most powerful shinigami, or he wouldn't have created WW. Don't mold reality to suit your argument, he stated explicitly that Yama-ji would defeat him in a fight. Apparently, sensing reiatsu is not something he can control with KS, or else he would've been able to fool Yama-ji, no?Quote:
Honestly, we don't know how the "ritual" really works. Isane said he did it back in his earlier captain days, right? (I actually don't remember and can't be bothered to look it up right now). Yet, he had already placed Shinji and all of the Visoreds under it...I dunno how he could've done it to all of them at once (including Hacchi, who was pretty much stated to not be around that often, iirc, but that could've just meant Tessai) if it was that difficult for him to do.Quote:
Grasping at straws again. What would be the point of the pontificating on his reiatsu's superiority to Soi Fong's attack if they were already under the illusion? I think that when he felt he would take extensive damage there (Hitsu's rage-filled strike), he used the illusion...up until then, there's no evidence that he was using it. Ichigo would've stepped in or said something at some point, no? Or he would've complained that he said something earlier or something...it wouldn't make sense for him to just stand there screaming while Soi Fong, Shunsui, AND Hitsu punish Hinamori, lolQuote:
Isshin clashes with Aizen, his sword doesn't break...Sajin clashes with Aizen, his sword gets cut through and he gets owned...differences in power don't get much worse than that. If we're going to argue about that, then I'm done discussing Sajin vs. Isshin, because we aren't going to go anywhere with it. And again, it's not like Aizen didn't get hits in on these guys...we saw for sure that he did a typical Aizen-slash to Urahara, but Urahara was ready to continue fighting.Quote:
If the masks' effects were universal for everyone, then Mashiro would've been boss for being able to use hers for that long...and everyone else would've delayed putting their masks on until they went for the kill strike, imo...of course, that's putting ourselves in their minds, so that point could be moot. Personally, I think of the mask thing as sorta like going Super Saiya-jin...you inherently can take more damage because your overall power is greater, but it doesn't exponentially increase your defense like hierro or Susano'o (from Naruto). That's just my assumption though...either way, slapping someone with something the size of a building and only breaking their arm is a little underwhelming...Quote:
I don't think every captain level shinigami with KS would be an Aizen-level threat...this is someone that shoots out 90s kidou without incantation, knows high level bakudo, creates random barriers/shields, and honestly has the best zanjutsu this side of Kenpachi...who else does that sort of damage with single swings? Hell, Shunsui got cheap hits off a few times, but his stabs didn't completely demolish someone like Aizen's...like Gin was saying, all of Aizen's abilities are beyond regular captains, not just his KS. Kaname is no pushover, and he can't be held by KS, but he still followed Aizen...it's implied that he felt Aizen could accomplish what he wanted because of Aizen's strength. You're right in that Byakuya or Yama-ji, or some of the others would be great threats, but as far as an Aizen-level threat? I doubt the majority of the captains would be that difficult to take down.Quote:
If you know your opponent has that ability, and you don't have your defenses up, that is your own fault...why is no one else hiding random barriers the way Aizen was? Why is no one else increasing their reiatsu to serve as a dampener, the way Kenpachi's does? There are ways to combat someone that has those sorts of abilities, it just takes strength to do so (see Yama-ji)...Quote:
I wish Kenpachi had been in FKT, then I'd have a better understanding of just how devastating Aizen's blows are...
I mean, 3 of the best captains for fighting against Aizen weren't even there, so that's definitely good luck for Aizen...if you think about it, Mayuri can fight almost anyone with prep time, and probably could work on something over KS, considering that Unohana suspected something was up with the corpse, so it's not invincible...Kenpachi is a tank with a brain (that you guys here seem to underestimate A LOT), he'd definitely figure out the touch the sword trick (a la Tousen), and Byakuya has powerful, AOE attacks and enough balance to keep Aizen on his toes a la Urahara, imo
Last edited by UchihaHunter; November 07, 2010 at 02:51 PM.
Shinji didn't get one shotted either. He got cut once across the back when he was going 1 vs 1 against Aizen, and then later he was taken out with the other captains. Secondly, are you still not getting it? Shinji never cut Aizen, he was KS'd and fighting an illusion the entire time.Quote:
Heh, if you read what I've said about Shunsui in other threads (probably even this one) you'd know how I feel about him and his fight against Starrk. That being said, where are all the Shunsui fanboys when you need them?Quote:
If you think Isshin is stronger than all those above characters then you're seriously overrating him and downplaying KS's effectiveness.
Wonderwiess was his fail-safe plan, obviously. Just cause he created him doesn't he believed he would have lost. He didn't explicitly state Yamamoto would defeat him. He said that in a direct confrontation Ryuujin Jakka's power may ever surpass his own. Moreover, Yamamoto himself obviously had doubts about defeating Aizen in a regular fight because he resorted to using an attack required a large amount of prep-time (while all of his underlings where being cut down), and amounted to killing himself and all of the other captains along with Aizen.Quote:
Yamamoto said someone like him would not fail to recognize the reiatsu of a zanpakutou piecing his own body. For starters, Yamamoto pulling it off doesn't mean others could. I think KS does have some control on sensing reiatsu though, otherwise it shouldn't be a requirement for Yamamoto (or other characters) to be stabbed by KS first to find it. Moreover, I doubt Aizen knew Yamamoto or anyone else could do something like that, otherwise I think he would have just gone for the kill shot (lobbing off his head).Quote:
Actually, we know exactly how the ritual works, did you not see Barragan's flashback? According to Isane, Aizen placed everyone under KS by gathering them all and doing a so-called demonstration of how his zanpakutou worked. He even had them believing that KS was some kind of flowing water type zanpakutou.Quote:
That speech Aizen gave Soi Fon hardly serves as proof to me that he wasn't using KS. Aizen has a fetish for mind fucking people and lecturing them about their inabilities - which in turn causes them to lose their cool and screw up. Both Sajin and Shinji pointed this out.Quote:
There is literally no reasonable explanation for pretty much anything Ichigo does. You would have figured that he would have been there fighting whether the captains appeared to be winning or losing. You would have figured that he would have tried and stopped wonderweiss before he got to Yamamoto. Hell you would have figured he would jumped in and helped the old man with WW so he could go after Aizen.
To be fair, the mere fact that Sajin was able to get up and fight after getting his freakin chest blown open by Los nueve aspectos is impressive enough. I was surprised he even had enough reiatsu to summon KTM again, and even then he still took two hits to go down.Quote:
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Aizen cut Kisuke with his arm, and not his sword?Quote:
What does Mashiro's mask's duration have to do the effects they have while they're on? That she can keep it on longer doesn't signify any differences in effectiveness while the mask is on.Quote:
That being said, you're the first person other than myself which has referenced the masks as being akin to a SSj transformation. I agree with that, the masks pretty much provide an all around massive stat boost - which would explain the boost in defense (higher reiatsu = better defense).
It may seem underwhelming given the size of KTM, but it's still signifies that the thing has overall more power than the other characters, regardless of whether it's because of it's massive size or not.Quote:
Poor choice of words on my part. A captain like Byakuya armed with KS would be a threat to SS (not necessarily Aizen-level).Quote:
Having your defenses up would help how exactly? Kenpachi increasing his reiatsu wouldn't to jack. Aizen would still cut through him like butter, and Kenpachi wouldn't even see/feel he's been cut unless Aizen wants to, that's what it means to have complete control over the 5 senses. You can't even begin to compare Kaname's bankai to KS.Quote:
I'll give you that Mayuri could have potentially been an asset, but Byakuya? Please, that bankai of his would be more of a hazard to his teammates. Whats to stop Aizen from pulling the old switcharoo again and having Byakuya cut up his fellow captains with his bankai?Quote:
Unohana suspected something was off with Aizen's corpse after god knows many hours of carefully studying the body - that's not something that she or any of the others would be capable of picking up on during mid-battle.
Haha, you're right, Shinji got two-shotted, which is better than being one-shotted, yet still not impressive compared to Urahara-tachi fighting him (when at the least Yoruichi and Kisuke should've been able to be KS'd)...so we ignore that Aizen said all he had to do was get used to it (it's not like we haven't seen anything in any other manga, or even in this manga, that would make getting used to that seem impossible), and presume that Shinji was fighting air the entire time...and all Aizen chose to do was slash him across the back once...I think that's asking for a little much here.Quote:
I honestly haven't seen what you've said, but the better off you think he was after his fight with Starrk, the worse it looks that he got pwned so badly.Quote:
If you think the only thing that lets Aizen one-shot and two-shot people is KS, you're underrating Aizen.Quote:
This was the translation I saw...I didn't see the raw, so he may have said "tabun" or some variant...I'd have to see the raw to really know what he said. Either way, he knew that KS didn't ensure a victory over Yama-ji...he didn't create an arrancar for Shunsui, Ukitake, or anyone else, really, so at the very least, Yama-ji is on his own tier, and KS doesn't make Aizen invincible. On the other hand, Yama-ji's objective was different than Aizen's...even if Yama-ji could defeat Aizen, it would just help him evolve, so while it was preferred that he take out Yama-ji, it wasn't absolutely necessary for him to be able to pwn Yama-ji...from Yama-ji's perspective though, nothing could be left to chance, hence him using that technique (since Bankai would probably obliterate the entire Bleach universe, lol)
This is true, but I would think Shunsui, Ukitake, and other senior captains would be able to sense it when stabbed, etc...you could even make the argument that Shinji, Love, etc. that were captains 100 years prior would be able to sense it as well. Of course, he never says it controls sense of reiatsu, so we're free to make our own assumptions either way...and I don't remember Aizen ever going for the head, hahaha...when you have such an uber one-shot, I guess you don't go for the obvious *shrugs*Quote:
Now...the sword doesn't just release reiatsu on its own, right? So up till then, it makes sense for them not to be able to sense it without being stabbed, right? They obviously notice Aizen's reiatsu, but it's not like they can track him down flawlessly (I don't think we've seen anyone with abilities like that, I might be wrong though).
If Barragan's flashback in the manga is how it works, then it's pretty easy for him to pull off in battle, no? IIRC, didn't he just hold it upside down, distract for a few seconds, then say the command? You're going to have your eyes on your opponent anyway, and he could use a bakudo or something to hold you there if necessary...it's not like he couldn't do it.Quote:
Wouldn't he have just stabbed them from the start? I guess we don't know Aizen's personality, but you're saying that Ichigo sat through Soi Fong's useless clone show, watched her stab...nothing? Or Hinamori? Or what? Watched Shunsui come out of a shadow...or not come out of a shadow? And stab...nothing? And then...finally reacted when Hitsu pwned Hinamori...I think that's a stretch, and I wonder what/who Soi Fong and Shunsui attacked, if that was the case....Ichigo was acting sorta useless in that he didn't stop Hitsugaya, but we're also not sure how Aizen pulled off the replacement technique...Quote:
Also, didn't Yama-ji tell Ichigo not to get into his fight? If Yama-ji felt like he couldn't take WW, I think he would've commanded Ichigo to join the fight...otherwise, his job was to look for an opening on Aizen and then take it...which he did, eventually.
Oh, like I said, I'm not a Komamura-hater, I think he's plenty tough...the problem is that his destructive power hasn't really wowed me as of yet...not over Yama-ji's bare hands, anywayQuote:
Nothing to say to that, you're definitely right...but seeing as how he definitely lunged at Urahara with intent to kill right before that, I don't know why he'd use a useless attack.Quote:
Again, I think the mask does give an inherent defense boost, but it's nothing too relevant in that situation...the Mashiro comment was that she can fight with that boost longer than anyone else, which would make her much more effective than Rose and Love, for example...especially if her mask boosted her abilities in the way you're suggesting it did for Tousen.Quote:
It broke an arm...I haven't seen it pwn anything other than a Fraccion...again, that's because he keeps having to fight Aizen, but still, we haven't seen him do anything to anyone.Quote:
If Shunsui, etc. are on Aizen's level, they should be able to construct barriers similar to what Aizen had protecting the back of his neck, right? I don't see why you wouldn't have barriers over your vital points if you felt that at any time KS could own you...the point about touch is right, but I don't think I've ever seen Aizen do that in regards to cutting someone (probably for the same reason Tousen's bankai/Mayuri's shikai don't...you want the things you cut to feel the pain, lol)Quote:
You're also underestimating Kenpachi like crazy...are we arguing that Kenpachi falls to the same slashes that other captains did? This is someone that consistently takes epic amounts of damage without really caring...and he's no slouch mentally, either.
Lol if we use that argument combined with your belief that Komamura's KTM is ridiculously powerful, that would make Komamura possibly the worst shinigami to be in FKT...so...Byakuya's variety of attacks does nothing in that situation? I think at the very least, having better attacks to use forces Aizen to use KS, which, unlike you, I don't think he was doing the entire time. It's also a suitable defense technique, which is more of what I was thinking about...it's omnidirectional attack and defense, which is always a good thing, imo...plus, you'd have at least one shinigami capable of casting decent binding spells, lolQuote:
I'm not saying that they would do it mid-battle...I'm saying that she discovered something that led her to think Aizen was alive...if she shared that with Mayuri, I don't think it's outside the realm of reason for Mayuri (or even Kisuke at that point) to construct something to aid with defending against that. This is me stretching a bit, but I don't think the three would have been more useless than Komamura, Soi Fong, and Shunsui/Ukitake ended up being. And definitely more useful than the Visored, excluding possibly Shinji.Quote:
Why do people put Komamura in top ? He never looked like anything special to me.
From my point of view Gin, Byakuya, Kyouraku Shunsui, Hitsugaya, Zaraki Kenpachi (hell he almost beat him in a 2vs1 ... He sure made them look bad in that fight), Ukitake all of these guys would beat him.
I am not even adding to this the other guys (only the curent captains and Gin :P I like him). There are some dudes that would just humiliate him ...
Sure he has a big golem looking thing but its not that good. Ichigo for one (not the OP one with FGT or just before) would just speed his way around the big thing and cut him up.
Full-hollow-mode-Ichi would probably destroy any captain in seconds(not the commander). To bad we only got to see him like 1 time. He was just pure awesome.
How would you guys rank full hollow ichigo ? Could he take the commander or (normal) Aizen down ?
^^ Koma is only weak to them skill wise. He has the strength and drive to fight anyone as proven in the manga. I agree Koma is most likely one of the weaker captains but based solely on match-ups he can fight on equal grounds with Zaraki, Hitsugaya, etc. Probably a couple of vizards aswell.
the discussion was pure brute strength not speed,kido
koma is one coz his bankai
Tengen's Backhand: http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-...apter-385.html
The Result: http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-...apter-385.html
if tousen wasent hollow he be dead.
AND THAT was a backhand not a sword swing
he also took most damage.
hole in stomach..sliced a few times by tousen...arm cut off..slice again by aizen
Last edited by Hystzen; November 08, 2010 at 02:39 PM.
Here look at this: http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/398/18
Note i said about not the same but this was only a finger hit from Isshin.
Yes the damage was not the sambe but Aizen is way above that guy.
we where talking bout pure strength not kido speed or anything.
Okay this is getting too involved and off-topic from the purpose of the thread -which is to simply rank the characters' strength. We obviously disagree about the effectiveness of KS in combat. You don't think it would have made too much of a difference against Isshin, while I do.
I'll just reply briefly to a few core points.
The biggest evidence comes from the complete disappearance of the wound on Aizen's arm. It strongly suggests that Aizen was never cut by Shinji and therefore using KS. You may be thinking "well the hogyouku regenerated him" which is fair, but I don't think the hogyouku repairs his outfit or cleans the blood off it.
The point is that the outcome of their fight would be uncertain, especially both Yamamoto and Aizen had doubts about being able to defeat the other in a straight up match (even Unohana doubted Yamamoto could win). People like to say that Yamamoto's bankai is just more flames, but I'm not so sure about that. That's massive speculation, his bankai, for all we know, could be some crazy burning red samurai armor that creates an aura around him that melts any incoming attack/enemy. Aizen also has a bankai that we didn't get to see.Quote:
I don't think so because Yamamoto is on a completely different level than the others, but even if they could, all Aizen has to do is make sure he incapacitates them rather than stabbing them through the abdomen (e.g. decapitation, cutting off sword arm, stabbing through heart)Quote:
Well Yamamoto certainly makes it sound like zanpakutou do release reiatsu of sorts.Quote:
It wouldn't be so easy if the opponent was already informed and knew what to look out for. It's not that hard to look away when you see him flip his sword around and raise it up to you.Quote:
Uhh yeah. You would have figured he would have seen him go down to where the VCs where, pick up hinamori, and place her there for the captains to attack. The point is that either way you look at it, Ichigo's actions never make sense in the least.Quote:
He told him to back away so he wouldn't get caught in the blast since he was not a real shinigami. That doesn't explain why Ichigo wouldn't have jumped in when he saw all of the old man's flames get extinguished and WW knock him down into a building.Quote:
Not saying his attack was useless, but it's kinda hard to argue that cutting someone across the chest with your fingertips would be as potent as a deep sword wound from Kyouka Suigetsu.Quote:
Well Mashiro's words shouldn't even be taken seriously. Her mask lasted a lot less than 15 hours against WW, and it's not like she was taking any damage or anything. She obviously didn't know the difference between simply wearing the mask and fighting with it.Quote:
If Shunsui, etc. are on Aizen's level, they should be able to construct barriers similar to what Aizen had protecting the back of his neck, right? I don't see why you wouldn't have barriers over your vital points if you felt that at any time KS could own you...the point about touch is right, but I don't think I've ever seen Aizen do that in regards to cutting someone (probably for the same reason Tousen's bankai/Mayuri's shikai don't...you want the things you cut to feel the pain, lol)
Who the heck knows about the barriers. Where they kidou, or some kind of ability the hogyouku granted him? I don't know why other characters wouldn't use them, especially those well versed in kidou.
Maybe he wouldn't fall as easily, but like I said before, it really doesn't make a difference. So Aizen has to cut him a couple more times, big deal.Quote:
Byakuya's variety of attacks is only useful if he's attacking the right target lol. Like I said, what's to stop Aizen from making himself look like Hitsugaya to Byakuya and then have Byakuya proceed to rape Toushirou with senbonzakura? Whether bakudou would have worked against an Aizen who was not trying to get himself caught is debateable, but there were certainly a few kidou users there who could have done it but chose not to.Quote:
Okay I really disagree with this and I'll tell you why. Unohana is far from stupid, if she felt that by relaying the method she used to discover Aizen's corpse was a fake would have allowed Mayuri or Kisuke to come up with a counter to KS, she would have certainly done so. Instead, we here her tell Ichigo he's SS only chance of defeating Aizen. Why? Because he's hadn't been exposed to KS. Lol, I think this should have been my main argument to begin with. A senior captain like Unohana knew damn well that Yamamoto and all the other captains would likely fail against Aizen because of KS - which is why she explicitly states that if Ichigo loses his advantage the war is over.Quote:
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; November 09, 2010 at 05:11 PM.
I don't think that Aizen only used his brain to "figure out" and counter Shinji's sakanade.
I believe that Aizen was using his illusions.
I won't even go into how that particular anime episode made it very clear that Aizen was using his illusions. We know Anime isn't cannon;however, let's look at what happened in the manga then:
Shinji: yer taking damage in every direction... Ya think ya can take all that in, flip it around in yer head and fight that? Ya can't. Nobody can. The stronger ya are... the more yer used to fightin' ...
Shinji: yer body acts reflexively on what yer eyes are telling it!!
Aizen: control over direction, is nothing compared to the extent of what I can do. You expect to beat me at my own game? You're fighting a losing battle. Hirako Shinji.
I think that, at that point, it is pretty evident that Aizen is saying that there's no way that Shinji can beat him with Sakanade...because Aizen has something that is superior, which is his kyoka suigetsu's complete hypnosis.
Want more evidence that Aizen used KS illusions on Shinji?
Let's go back to the scene where Hitsugaya strikes Hinamori from behind, thinking that it was Aizen (it was really an illusion).
At that moment, Shinji turns to face the real Aizen, and asks: "How long..?"
This is their dialogue-
Aizen: How long...? What an interesting question. But you know the answer, don't you? Kyoka Saigetsus's power is complete hypnotism. It controls the senses at all times and can create an illusion out of any situation.
Shinji: But I'm asking you when... when did you use Kyoka suigetsu!!?
Aizen: Then let me ask you something.
Aizen: When did you start thinking I wasn't using Kyoka suigetsu?
Also, remember what Aizen told Unohana back in soul society, regarding kyoka suigetsu-
Aizen: "Absolute Hypnosis" controls all of the five senses and is able to show the enemy a different size, shape, weight, feeling, and smell of any object or situation. In other words, I can make a fly look like a dragon, or make a swamp appear to be a flower garden."
Now again, How did Aizen counter Shinji's Sakanade?
It has to be one of the following:
A) Once Shinji started fighting Aizen, shinji was really just fighting an illusion the whole time.
B) Aizen didn't use KS illusions right away, and Shinji did manage to hit Aizen with sakanade, but then after that, Aizen used his illusions to counter Shinji's sakanade.
I personally like to think that it was option B
Anyway, Now let me bring this whole thing more on topic-
I think that Shinji is also one of the most powerful characters in bleach. He was an experienced Captain, has apparently mastered the powers of the vaizard mask, and he has a pretty hax shikai.
If Shinji goes all out and attacks as fast as he can, from multiple directions with his mask on, I don't think that even Kisuke could simply register everything in his mind and effectively counter sakanade. It would be incredibly difficult to keep up, even for Kisuke.
Kisuke would probably have to actually try to take the fight to long range (use Benehime and kidou etc.) to have better chances against Shinji, in my opinion. And even then... who knows how that would end.
Also, Shinji hasn't even shown his Bankai either. He's definitely top tier, in my opinion.
Last edited by Jackk; November 09, 2010 at 10:23 PM.
Totally agree that even Kisuke, bleachverse's smartest, would be unable to keep up once Shinji starts attacking like Gin in the middle panel here. . Nobody is going to block a furry of swings like that with several angles being inverted at once. Well, maybe it would be possible if the user of sakanade was some slow fodder level shinigami, but this is freakin Shinji; a former captain with a hollow mask to boot.
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; November 10, 2010 at 02:11 AM.