Bleach -107 Discussions

[Jehuty]

Makes you wonder what side the Vizards will choose if they will choose a side at all...

I think maybe they might not have had huge Hollow-battles that blew shit up in soul society... they timed the Hollow battles. That kind of gives a hint of stability. Maybe they went mask and Soul Society couldn't look past their masks and acknowledge them as people anymore... and thus, they were exiled. It would really explain their hatred.

So maybe, with this battle, they want to prove their lack of Hollow evil to Soul Society.

[AngryChubbs]

Makes you wonder what side the Vizards will choose if they will choose a side at all...

prolly the side with the good guys because them all being former captains means they are good guys. last time i checked, they were training ichigo and fighting off grimm so i guess that means they are "good"

[hollowdemon]

yeah most definitely ... it doesnt matter if humans hate them or whatever the whole point is for them to fight off aizen most likely appearing after the espada starts to fight also so no question if they're on ichigos side but who knows maybe they have ulterior motives included

well isshin will be included at one point or the other ... the whole idea of him not being shown yet jst makes me hope that he ranks among the RG since i agree who mentioned that he will be a complete bad-ass when he gets into combat

[Antillio]

prolly the side with the good guys because them all being former captains means they are good guys. last time i checked, they were training ichigo and fighting off grimm so i guess that means they are "good"

Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.

[Kanzen Shinkiro]

You don't think much of Aizen? What? The guy has totally been one step ahead of everyone. You can't be serious about Shinji beating anyone with no trouble right? What has given you this idea besides he is able to sword fight well against the 6th Espada that only had one arm at the time? We seen him tear down "perhaps" an illusion from Aizen when he was clearly acting as the man they all thought he was. We don't even know what Aizen's bankai is or if Aizen is even a vaizard as well. He had plenty of time to do hollow training upon himself. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Shinji is an interesting character but let's not forget the other strong characters.

As I've said, it was an impression. His fight against doesn't prove much other than that he can easily deal with espada level arrancar sans an arm but I don't think it matters much. For the time, it was not like Kubo would have Shinji mop the floor with Grimmjow as it would spoil what is going on now by displaying Shinji's powers too early in the story versus saving them for a grand occasion. Now, don't think I believe Shinji is invincible. I know better than to label a character invincible, especially not Aizen. As the villain, he will lose. That simply can't be denied. It will be most likely Ichigo who will eventually grow to surpass him. I see Bleach much in the same light as Yu Yu Hakusho, so Bleach's final arc will be much like Yu Yu Hakusho's own. Ichigo will learn the truth behind all mysteries, his heritage included, and become a powerhouse. He will clash with Aizen, who sans his petty illusions, won't be a match. Hence why I don't think much of Aizen. His illusions. Everything so far could have been accomplished by just someone who is simply smarter than everyone also but not stronger, and has an ability that is formidable to replace raw strength. Lets not even get into that whole "but Aizen's reiatsu brought Grimmjow to his knees" discussion because I've had enough of that. I mean, for Christ's sake, sure Aizen ought to be at least stronger than Grimmjow and by a margin that ought to make Grimmjow look like a child, so of course the sheer difference in reiatsu ought to down Grimmjow. But Grimmjow is the sixth espada and Aizen is like -2 (as in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2). Ultimately, I am not saying Aizen is weak, I am saying that once his illusionary abilities are overcome he shouldn't present much trouble aside from some 90+ kido which Komamura could survive. Sure, Aizen said the spell wasn't at its full power, but I doubt anyone outside the captain class could have survived it. But guess what? If Ichigo is to even hope to dethrone Aizen, he better be at least above Komamura in power or he won't ever pull it off, and should he somehow miraculously do so anyway, I would be most disappointed.

[Tsukisama]

Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.

I'm thinking along the same lines. The vizards simply turning out to be misunderstood bad guys would be very disappointing to me. I would like to see them continue to be a separate force with their own agenda. Hopefully, this gaiden makes it apparent what their motives are (at least to some degree, as I kind of like them as a bit of a mystery.)

As I've said, it was an impression. His fight against doesn't prove much other than that he can easily deal with espada level arrancar sans an arm but I don't think it matters much. For the time, it was not like Kubo would have Shinji mop the floor with Grimmjow as it would spoil what is going on now by displaying Shinji's powers too early in the story versus saving them for a grand occasion. Now, don't think I believe Shinji is invincible. I know better than to label a character invincible, especially not Aizen. As the villain, he will lose. That simply can't be denied. It will be most likely Ichigo who will eventually grow to surpass him. I see Bleach much in the same light as Yu Yu Hakusho, so Bleach's final arc will be much like Yu Yu Hakusho's own. Ichigo will learn the truth behind all mysteries, his heritage included, and become a powerhouse. He will clash with Aizen, who sans his petty illusions, won't be a match. Hence why I don't think much of Aizen. His illusions. Everything so far could have been accomplished by just someone who is simply smarter than everyone also but not stronger, and has an ability that is formidable to replace raw strength. Lets not even get into that whole "but Aizen's reiatsu brought Grimmjow to his knees" discussion because I've had enough of that. I mean, for Christ's sake, sure Aizen ought to be at least stronger than Grimmjow and by a margin that ought to make Grimmjow look like a child, so of course the sheer difference in reiatsu ought to down Grimmjow. But Grimmjow is the sixth espada and Aizen is like -2 (as in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2). Ultimately, I am not saying Aizen is weak, I am saying that once his illusionary abilities are overcome he shouldn't present much trouble aside from some 90+ kido which Komamura could survive. Sure, Aizen said the spell wasn't at its full power, but I doubt anyone outside the captain class could have survived it. But guess what? If Ichigo is to even hope to dethrone Aizen, he better be at least above Komamura in power or he won't ever pull it off, and should he somehow miraculously do so anyway, I would be most disappointed.

Although you don't want to acknowledge it, Aizen's display of power against Grimmjow does mean something. You can't simply write off the incident, because Grimmjow is the sixth espada. What does being the sixth espada mean? Sure, it means that there are five arrancar in league with Aizen stronger than you, but that is it. Just because Grimmjow is the sixth espada does not mean he is incredibly weak. He provided a fairly decent obstacle for Ichigo, giving us some idea of his power. For Aizen to completely overpower someone of his strength so effortlessly means that Aizen isn't just a clever guy with illusions, but he has quite a bit of power as well. Taking away the illusions should put him on an even playing field with the top shinigami of SS, still presenting a formiddable challenge without them.

[Jehuty]

Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.

They knew he had Hollow powers from the start... they knew about getting his powers, Zangetsu, and Bankai... wonder where that came from...?

[Schabrak]

@Jehuty: Shinji sensed Ichigos hollow powers/or saw him being one, that is fact... Where did he wrote something about, knowing about Zengetsu?or Bankai?or knowing all along? It should be natural for someone as strong as him, being captain level, having his bankai.

[Streifen]

They knew he had Hollow powers from the start... they knew about getting his powers, Zangetsu, and Bankai... wonder where that came from...?

its from the new guy... LOL...

[Hockeychaoz]

Okay, too many pages to read of comments, so I'm just gonna throw this out there. It could have been mentioned before.


We're given a lot of information in the past 2 chapters, but I think a lot of people are overlooking a very relevant detail.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

Hirako beat Aizen's shikai. I think this is a pretty huge detail.
Everyone is basically under Aizen's spell, and got owned by it in the SS arc. Shinji not only saw through it, but then broke it completely.

What do you guys think?

[Tsukisama]

We're given a lot of information in the past 2 chapters, but I think a lot of people are overlooking a very relevant detail.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

Hirako beat Aizen's shikai. I think this is a pretty huge detail.
Everyone is basically under Aizen's spell, and got owned by it in the SS arc. Shinji not only saw through it, but then broke it completely.

What do you guys think?

It is unknown whether or not that was truly Aizen's shikai. It could have been kidou or perhaps something else. If it was truly Aizen's shikai, then one possible explanation is that Aizen had yet to perfect his shikai back then; however, since everyone in SS thought Aizen's shikai did something different (fog-related), if Shinji did know the true power of Aizen's zanpakutou, it would be somewhat odd for him to keep it to himself and let everyone else be deluded.

[Kanzen Shinkiro]

Although you don't want to acknowledge it, Aizen's display of power against Grimmjow does mean something. You can't simply write off the incident, because Grimmjow is the sixth espada. What does being the sixth espada mean? Sure, it means that there are five arrancar in league with Aizen stronger than you, but that is it. Just because Grimmjow is the sixth espada does not mean he is incredibly weak. He provided a fairly decent obstacle for Ichigo, giving us some idea of his power. For Aizen to completely overpower someone of his strength so effortlessly means that Aizen isn't just a clever guy with illusions, but he has quite a bit of power as well. Taking away the illusions should put him on an even playing field with the top shinigami of SS, still presenting a formiddable challenge without them.

His display of power towards Grimmjow to mean means that Grimmjow is simply outclassed by Aizen in every way. It is a situation equal to when Yamamoto rendered Nanao unable to react by simply staring her down and releasing his reiatsu before engaging two more than formidable captain class shinigami in combat. A battle which he could have easily won as both captains should signs of wearing down while Yamamoto himself remained unscathed. I wasn't in anyway saying Grimmjow was weak either. Grimmjow is simply nowhere within Aizen's class, and he was apparently going vasto lorde just before joining the arrancar ranks. That serves to show that Hitsugaya apparently overrated the vasto lorde as saying ten of them could destroy Soul Society when Aizen can boss them around. That in on itself is a clear statement of how strong Aizen is or it could simply mean vasto lorde aren't all that to be bossed around by Aizen (should any of his arrancar be former vasto lorde, however). Either way, all that is beyond my point and opinion. I simply don't see Aizen as all that because I've seen my share of manga villains in this life time of mine, and he is he just strikes me as the mastermind type, not the almighty type capable of obliterating everyone at whim. After all, if he could have done all that, why hasn't he yet? The first thing that comes to mind is the author's will for the sake of lengthening the story et al which is entirely true. But even so, for my opinion of Aizen to change, I would have to see him kill at least one captain class shinigami sans his petty illusions. As you can see now, my trouble with Aizen isn't the character so much as his abilities. Never liked the idea of an master illusionist for an antagonist for personal reasons (i.e. illusion does not equal power when through illusion, you can make yourself into a god but be no more than a mere ant).

Now, back on topic: I predict that the so called maggots nest will be a laboratory of sorts containing all of Hikifune's previous work and experiments. I am beginning to believe Hikifune's work is what led Urahara to discovering the Hogyoku and that the vizard were an accident. I believe the entire thing was made to look like something also by Aizen's scheming resulting in the exiling of the former shinigami who became vizard and Urahara's eventual departure from Soul Society.

P.S. Was it ever announced how long this flashback arc would last?

[Antillio]

Why make a elite force that is stronger then you, that would make no sense. Aizen not being Hollow isn't leading cause of the Espada's respect for Aizen, but out of fear. Those who don't follow orders to well tend to die. So either fear for dying cause Aizen has that stone wich he can erase them or fear for his power.

[Tsukisama]

His display of power towards Grimmjow to mean means that Grimmjow is simply outclassed by Aizen in every way. It is a situation equal to when Yamamoto rendered Nanao unable to react by simply staring her down and releasing his reiatsu before engaging two more than formidable captain class shinigami in combat. A battle which he could have easily won as both captains should signs of wearing down while Yamamoto himself remained unscathed. I wasn't in anyway saying Grimmjow was weak either. Grimmjow is simply nowhere within Aizen's class, and he was apparently going vasto lorde just before joining the arrancar ranks. That serves to show that Hitsugaya apparently overrated the vasto lorde as saying ten of them could destroy Soul Society when Aizen can boss them around. That in on itself is a clear statement of how strong Aizen is or it could simply mean vasto lorde aren't all that to be bossed around by Aizen (should any of his arrancar be former vasto lorde, however).

I was not trying to imply that you were saying Grimmjow is weak, but just that it seemed that you were trying to dismiss this and still claim that Aizen is weak without his illusions, which he clearly is not.

I simply don't see Aizen as all that because I've seen my share of manga villains in this life time of mine, and he is he just strikes me as the mastermind type, not the almighty type capable of obliterating everyone at whim. After all, if he could have done all that, why hasn't he yet? The first thing that comes to mind is the author's will for the sake of lengthening the story et al which is entirely true. But even so, for my opinion of Aizen to change, I would have to see him kill at least one captain class shinigami sans his petty illusions. As you can see now, my trouble with Aizen isn't the character so much as his abilities. Never liked the idea of an master illusionist for an antagonist for personal reasons (i.e. illusion does not equal power when through illusion, you can make yourself into a god but be no more than a mere ant).

I too was initially somewhat against a character whose powers center on illusions being the prinicpal antagonist, because typically those characters aren't truly powerful but just make themselves seem as such. Aizen, however, is a character I have come to somewhat respect. Unlike most villainous illusionists, he is tremendously powerful without necessarily relying on his illusions, as evidenced from the level 90 kidou spell against Komamura and crushing Grimmjow with just reiatsu. It is not just his illusions that make him so formiddable but also his cunning and sheer power as well, and in unison, they make Aizen a seemingly insurmountable foe. To have any hope of defeating him, one would need to find a way to counter his illusions, but even then, he still would be a force to be reckoned with.

Now, back on topic: I predict that the so called maggots nest will be a laboratory of sorts containing all of Hikifune's previous work and experiments. I am beginning to believe Hikifune's work is what led Urahara to discovering the Hogyoku and that the vizard were an accident. I believe the entire thing was made to look like something also by Aizen's scheming resulting in the exiling of the former shinigami who became vizard and Urahara's eventual departure from Soul Society.

That is an interesting theory. I personally don't think that Hikifune was a researcher, given Hiyori's surprise at seeing laboratory equipment (which did not seem to be just based on the emotional shock of seeing the office changed at all). I'm thinking that the maggots nest is probably something else, not necessarily connected to Hikifune, but you could be correct. I suppose that I would like to believe in Urahara's own ingenuity; having to rely on someone's else research would be somewhat of a disappointment for me.

P.S. Was it ever announced how long this flashback arc would last?

The gaiden is supposed to last about 8 chapters. This, I believe, is based on an interview with Kubo.

[Xerte]

In this gaiden part, is Gin already with aizen?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/13/

Here he says that gin was with him as soon as he became captain..i don't know excatly what he means but is a hint
Why would aizen ask gin to became his subordinate and ally..and why would Gin accept? no real reason,only power imo


another thing
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/
Here kubo show us how Aizen defeat Hitsugaya during his bankai..Aizen is keeping his zanpakuto,i think it has some offensive power or it wouldn't have destroyed hitugaya in just 1 hit...
if aizen zanpakuto is a defensive type (or illusional) how did he defeat a bankai with just a hit?