Why must you re-read Bleach again?

[elmo11]

its just like school, anything u dont understand, read again :P

[redcometfm]

If you want to talk about decline in quality, it started right at the Ichigo-Byakuya fight. I felt that tiny bit feeling of quality loss until the Aizen revelation (and the Yoruichi-Soifon battle was actually boring and..though it made sense, I just got the feeling that it was a bit forced..). It picked back up right afterwards with Grand Fisher, Isshin, and the Arrancar but then it slipped back into that lesser quality. I don't know why but the Grimmjow-Ichigo fight wasn't exciting as I thought it'd be. In fact, it was much better animated...

Anyway, point is, everyone's bitching how it started sucking during HM but that's not at all the case. Each arc's had its bad points. But I will say, knowing how Kubo originally start Bleach, I really felt the influence of the editor during the Noi fight. DAMN YOU, EDITOR!

[sk.nite]

If you think about it, a lot of Ichigo's wins are :
-Ichigo gets trashed
-Ichigo gets random powerup
-OHKO
That's a cannon for shonen manga fights, but in Bleach the powerups seem more random than most other mangas. Also, as was said before, we have very little to no idea of what the outcome of a fight might be based on abilities or power, just by how it will affect the development of the plot (like the next Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo. What are Ulquiorra's chances? He will lose because he MUST, otherwise who will save the E cup's princess?).
About the "vagueness" in the series, I really doubt there will be much clarification about certain little details in the future. Most likely they will keep increasing until the end of the series, and so will the irritation of the fans .

[gigantor21]

If you want to talk about decline in quality, it started right at the Ichigo-Byakuya fight. I felt that tiny bit feeling of quality loss until the Aizen revelation (and the Yoruichi-Soifon battle was actually boring and..though it made sense, I just got the feeling that it was a bit forced..). It picked back up right afterwards with Grand Fisher, Isshin, and the Arrancar but then it slipped back into that lesser quality. I don't know why but the Grimmjow-Ichigo fight wasn't exciting as I thought it'd be. In fact, it was much better animated...

I loved Ichigo-Byakuya, but I agree that some of the other stuff was "meh" at best. The dramatic end of Soi Fon-Yoruichi was good, but the fight was contrived as all hell. Soi Fon lasting so long because of pity kind of ruined it IMO.

And the way the War was hastened reflects that decline, given it's inconsistency with the rest of the story.

Everyone kept going on about the Vastorodes and the Hougyoku's completion, including Aizen himself, but then he decides to invade out of the blue. SS had everything ready just in time, yet Urahara was shocked when Orihime got kidnapped and Yama didn't even know she was alive. Orihime herself, who Aizen said could transcend God and was integral to his plans, ended up being bait. And Kisuke forgot to tell anyone how to re-open the Garganta on their own IN HOLLOW TERRITORY, even though he just needed a Kidou incantation and some tools. How could the founder of the RTI miss that? They had a whole month to prepare. And if it was more complicated, I'm sure Mayuri still would've understood.

It doesn't add up. As another member, Jannic, said a while ago, Kubo's cashing in all his chips, letting us see all the captains and remaining Espada fight to make up for an (apparent) lack of ideas. He either couldn't spin together the original plot threads he'd set up, or the editors forced him to push things forward. Either way, it wasn't planned very well.

I'm hoping there'll be more to the surge than we see right now. But given that Kubo kept stretching out the story artificially beforehand, I don't know. :/

[redcometfm]

Again, its not that bad, we're just in the middle of a big wtfigo so of course the story is lacking atm. But I trust Kubo and I'm sure he's got it planned, and even if its rushing things, Im sure his pressuring editor isnt THAT stupid to ruin SJ's top cash cow.

[gigantor21]

^ One Piece is the most popular series in SJ right now. It has been for years. Of the big three--OP, Bleach, Naruto--Bleach has been the most inconsistent in terms of readership, and I don't think that's an accident.

And we've seen several stories dip in quality due to outside pressures on the authors. DBZ wasn't supposed to go beyond the Frieza arc, and got more and more uninspired afterwards; Ohba and Obata were forced to do Death Note's Second Arc because of the series' popularity; Yu Yu Hakusho became more contrived and DBZish as the series went on, in no small part due to editorial cajoling.

It's nothing new. Even the best mangaka don't have complete control. Bleach is no exception, and the sudden onset of the War could be a result of that.

[redcometfm]

With as much bs that OP has, Im sure its had editor-influence. But again, Oda only cares about having fun so he doesn't care about editor pressure, his story suffers but it still succeeds bc its silliness (sp?) still reaches a broader audience than Naruto or Bleach, particularly with very young children. And thats actually the ONLY reason it may slightly beat those other two in sales and popularity. So let's not pretend its more of a quality story than Bleach or Naruto.

And Yoshihiro Togashi, with his current defiance of SJ (since he has popular bc of the popularity of his series) will probably change things for future mangaka. So one mangaka has control.

And maybe Rumiko Takahashi (even tho I hate her work and shes not of SJ).

[gigantor21]

So let's not pretend its more of a quality story than Bleach or Naruto.

Either way, I think it's still a better read--mostly because it established right away that it wasn't grounded or realistic at all. Bleach isn't much more believable, quite frankly, but it presents everything like it's supposed to make sense, which is where many of my problems with the series lie. One Piece, at least, doesn't have that problem.

And Yoshihiro Togashi, with his current defiance of SJ (since he has popular bc of the popularity of his series) will probably change things for future mangaka. So one mangaka has control.

I know that he has lots of clout in the office, especially given his constant sick leave, but in what ways is he bringing changes to the industry? I'm not doubting you or anything, I really want to know.

And maybe Rumiko Takahashi (even tho I hate her work and shes not of SJ).

I LOL'ed at this. And I hate most of her stuff, too.

[patedecarne]

Well, just now I can remember one series who didn't declined with time: Rurouni Kenshin by Watsuki; in reality, Enishi's saga, at least to me, was the best, even better then Shishio' saga: in all aspects: draw, plot, consistency, everything just got better with the time; in anime, such saga would be a hell of one!

Rumiko, at least, is killing Naraku, thanks God, almost 550 chapters with just a single villain!

And I don't hope that Aizen becomes a second Naraku, please, it would be so cliche, and so, the quality would decline so much..

[redcometfm]

I know that he has lots of clout in the office, especially given his constant sick leave, but in what ways is he bringing changes to the industry? I'm not doubting you or anything, I really want to know.

Well, basically he's making SJ cater to him, even so far as to getting into conflict with them (from what I remember reading/hearing) and bc of that, his manga is not stretched out and suffers no negative-editor-influence. He keeps control.

And this example will only inspire future mangaka. For example, maybe Kubo will say "hey, Ive done 300 chapters your way, Im making you money, so I can quit anytime, which would kill a cash cow for you so do it my way and not interfere with how I write my story." Or even a new mangaka, after getting a solid fanbase, set up and financial draw for his story, could pull the same thing. In essence, its like Hollywood; the producers tell writers/directors what to do even if its stupid as hell, now just imagine the writers saying 'hey f u, this is my project, Im making you money, let me do it my way, stfu or ill weaken you financially', basically making Hollywood/SJ on their knees at the mercy of good storytellers.

I LOL'ed at this. And I hate most of her stuff, too.

lol I was hoping I'd get a laugh out of you from this. Ease any tension. I know how we manga fans get sometimes. (Particularly with one of my friends, if I say anything bad about OP, he literally goes on the rampage to verbally pseudo-intellectually tear me a new asshole. -_-')

[gigantor21]

Well, basically he's making SJ cater to him, even so far as to getting into conflict with them (from what I remember reading/hearing) and bc of that, his manga is not stretched out and suffers no negative-editor-influence. He keeps control.

And this example will only inspire future mangaka....just imagine the writers saying 'hey f u, this is my project, Im making you money, let me do it my way, stfu or ill weaken you financially', basically making Hollywood/SJ on their knees at the mercy of good storytellers.

That'd kick all kinds of ass. The problem is that only titans like Togashi or Toriyama could utilize that angle. They're both special cases. I'm not even sure if Kishimoto and Kubo could do that, when Ohba and Obata couldn't bow out when they wanted.

lol I was hoping I'd get a laugh out of you from this. Ease any tension. I know how we manga fans get sometimes. (Particularly with one of my friends, if I say anything bad about OP, he literally goes on the rampage to verbally pseudo-intellectually tear me a new asshole. -_-')

Oh, believe me, I take this shit WAY too seriously. But when I see Inuyasha, aka Ranma 1/2 with magic, still going for so long, I have to laugh.

[Oblivion]

EY no one mocks Rumiko Takahashi in a thread i opened!

[redcometfm]

That'd kick all kinds of ass. The problem is that only titans like Togashi or Toriyama could utilize that angle. They're both special cases. I'm not even sure if Kishimoto and Kubo could do that, when Ohba and Obata couldn't bow out when they wanted.

Well Kubo and Kishi more COULD do this right now if they wanted. They their series beyond the halfway point, going on 6-7 yrs and have a solid fanbase and such, so they do hold some power. Ohba and Obata couldn't because Death Note was too short to build up that same kind of momentum and power. Its only when you've contributed alot to the company like Kishi, Kubo and, yes, Togashi and Toriyama that you can I guess you could say abuse your power to take back some control. Sad thing is, I feel Kubo and Kishi may be too humble to do that :/ (sigh)