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Thread: Archetypes in One Piece

  1. #16
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Its not like I'm saying Sanji is a bad person but its completely BS to say he's not a pervert.
    Sure he respects women. Respecting women doesn't stop you from being a pervert as he showed in front of Absalom in Thriller Bark.
    He's obviously the pervert type. Along with the Brooke.

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    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Yeah, Sanji fits the same archetype as Jiraiya.

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    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Yeah and the same as haposai

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    The Viennese Pixie MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Well I would also like to add Boa Hancock as the princess/maiden archetype, she may be playing too hard to get but with her love interest she certainly fits that archetype the most.

    Also I think western folklore is different than eastern folklore, so I have to explore it more to know about certain archetypes that are exclusive to it. Even though I do think Jung explored eastern cultures as well, I think Japan is exclusive on it's own and Oda uses Japanese mythology and folklore a lot as well. From language(puns) to abilities and character's names.

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    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Even more specific, she fits the warrior princess archetype, like Hippolyta. I think it's instructive that she rules the island of Amazon Lily.

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    The Viennese Pixie MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Indeed, the archetypal and mythological Amazon women. Of course her sister fit that more, even the Artemis(ancient Greek Godess) archetype is close.

    Nyon may fit the wise old woman archetype. There is also the Martyr archetype, I think Ace and his father fit that perfectly, maybe WB as well.

  9. #22
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiten View Post
    Even more specific, she fits the warrior princess archetype, like Hippolyta. I think it's instructive that she rules the island of Amazon Lily.
    Yeah, it's fun because if Boa is Hyppolite, luffy could be Heracles, well in some versions of the myth: she falls in love of him, but he doesn't pay attention.

    Lord Rayleigh is one of my favorites. I see in him melancholy and bitterness much more that I feel in Crocus which seems to have some of that feelings. It's curious the contrast between Shanks and Rayleight in regards their hope for a better world. Shanks do believe that is possible, and he has the legacy of Roger, and pass it with clear faith to Luffy. Rayleigh seems to not believe in a better world just until he knows Luffy. That's why he cries when he sees sailing towards Fishman Island, in, to me, one of the most beautiful chapters of OP. He is the guy who had a dream, lost it, and now waits for the younger son or disciple to make his dream come true. He is the pattern of the hope regained.
    Last edited by ukimix; February 23, 2013 at 06:14 AM.

  10. #23
    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Josef K. View Post
    Indeed, the archetypal and mythological Amazon women. Of course her sister fit that more, even the Artemis(ancient Greek Godess) archetype is close.

    Nyon may fit the wise old woman archetype. There is also the Martyr archetype, I think Ace and his father fit that perfectly, maybe WB as well.
    Boa definitely remind me of Artemis, down to filling the virginal archetype. Before meeting Luffy, of course

    Ace definitely fits the martyr archetype, so does Sabo (assuming he actually is dead). I've always thought of Paradise as symbolizing middle and high school. There are a set number of routes, with the log post always pointing directly to the next island. As long you work hard, and follow the log post, you can successfully navigate. New World is trickier. The log pose points in three directions, some more dangerous than others. Choosing a route requires decision making, there are many ways to go, none necessarily the right way. This sounds a lot like being an adult. Ace's death forced Luffy to be a man, to understand that life is not all fun and games. Becoming pirate king won't be easy, and he will have to make sacrifices to reach his goal.

    ---------- Post added at 08:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    Yeah, it's fun because if Boa is Hyppolite, luffy could be Heracles, well in some versions of the myth: she falls in love of him, but he doesn't pay attention.
    Exactly. Luffy, in general, fits the epic hero archetype. Heracles is a very good comparison. I've always thought of Jason, only because One Piece reminds me so much of the Argonautica. Both are epic nautical quests, taking the heroes through fantastic lands. Instead of the Golden Fleece, Luffy is seeking the One Piece.

  11. #24
    The Viennese Pixie MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Josef K.'s Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Oh, wow it just hit me there are too many hints to the Greek mythology in One Piece, those are archetypes of their own.

    Moria - Hades
    Whitebeard - Zeus or Poseidon
    Garp - Hephaestus("making" the weapons(training them))
    Akainu - Ares
    Boa - Artemis/Aphrodite

    Also as a whole I like One Piece as a metaphor on human life, though many tend to think of Ace's death and the time skip not connected, and the war as an arc on it's own, it will come back to bite ...

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  13. #25
    Harasho 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Kaiten's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    I think everything that happened between Sabaody, Amazon Lily, and Marineford are intimately connected, culminating in Ace's death. I think it's essential that Luffy did not have his nakama to rely on in Impel Down, at Marineford, or when Ace died. The timeskip had to happen when it did, Marineford effectively ended the storyline in paradise. An intermission was needed. Continuing the metaphor from last post, Luffy was a kid (17) when the timeskip started, but a young adult (19) when the story resumed.

  14. #26
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Josef K. View Post
    Oh, wow it just hit me there are too many hints to the Greek mythology in One Piece, those are archetypes of their own.

    Moria - Hades
    Whitebeard - Zeus or Poseidon
    Garp - Hephaestus("making" the weapons(training them))
    Akainu - Ares
    Boa - Artemis/Aphrodite

    Also as a whole I like One Piece as a metaphor on human life, though many tend to think of Ace's death and the time skip not connected, and the war as an arc on it's own, it will come back to bite ...
    Yes but also with japanese folk tales which can be taken also as archetypes:

    Madame Shirley is taken from Amabie; Monet from Yuki Ona who is in part a femme fatale (too bad that she couldn't conquer any man, but he tried with Law), and also Sentomaru is related to Kintaro, from japanese folk. Here a pic:

    Spoiler show


    ther are other mythological characters involved like Kalubaterman who comes from the old german folklore tales.

    ---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

    But, now that I think abou it, many mythological characters are not archetypes since they are in a sense so unique; and an archetype needs cases.
    Last edited by ukimix; February 22, 2013 at 09:41 PM.

  15. #27
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    ?
    http://www.mangareader.net/103-2571-...apter-464.html
    Sanji's dream fruit was the Suke Suke Fruit.
    He reveals his true intentions.
    If this doesn't confirm Sanji is a pervert then...
    Manga Reader does not work for us hardworking Americans.

    But it's not like he's gonna peep on women just because they're naked. If I recall, didn't he only do that once after the fight with Crocodile when the SHP, the king of Alabasta, and Vivi were taking a bath?

    Who knows what he'd do, thougH?

    Quote Originally Posted by ukimix View Post
    A pervert can be a politically correct person. I can ask a woman to let me see her pants. If she says no, I will have to keep cultivating my pervert thoughts by myself. So Sanji is a pervert, not an abuser, who is a pervert that is disrespectful of other's regulations.
    He keeps thinking perverted thoughts of someone? At best though, he hits on women, no? I mean, I don't remember him doing anything that'd raise alarm bells like it did with Brook, Frankie, or even Jiraiya.
    Quote Originally Posted by Josef K. View Post
    Well I would also like to add Boa Hancock as the princess/maiden archetype, she may be playing too hard to get but with her love interest she certainly fits that archetype the most.

    Also I think western folklore is different than eastern folklore, so I have to explore it more to know about certain archetypes that are exclusive to it. Even though I do think Jung explored eastern cultures as well, I think Japan is exclusive on it's own and Oda uses Japanese mythology and folklore a lot as well. From language(puns) to abilities and character's names.
    I don't think she plays hard to get, at all. She's willing to throw herself to Luffy or at his feet happily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiten View Post
    I think everything that happened between Sabaody, Amazon Lily, and Marineford are intimately connected, culminating in Ace's death. I think it's essential that Luffy did not have his nakama to rely on in Impel Down, at Marineford, or when Ace died. The timeskip had to happen when it did, Marineford effectively ended the storyline in paradise. An intermission was needed. Continuing the metaphor from last post, Luffy was a kid (17) when the timeskip started, but a young adult (19) when the story resumed.
    Not to mention, he thinks more like an adult as well. I haven't gotten that same feeling of Luffy after the timeskip, as though the excessive silliness and supreme recklessness was beaten out of him. There's definitely a change to him, apart from appearance and age.

  16. #28
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He keeps thinking perverted thoughts of someone? At best though, he hits on women, no? I mean, I don't remember him doing anything that'd raise alarm bells like it did with Brook, Frankie, or even Jiraiya.
    A pervert always think pervert thoughts. well, that my experience. But my post was more about the distinction between a pervert and an abuser. The distinction doesn't depend on the fact that Sanji keeps thinking pervertly, but in the think that he respects women, even if he thinks pervertly of them.

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  18. #29
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Manga Reader does not work for us hardworking Americans.

    But it's not like he's gonna peep on women just because they're naked. If I recall, didn't he only do that once after the fight with Crocodile when the SHP, the king of Alabasta, and Vivi were taking a bath?

    Who knows what he'd do, thougH?


    He keeps thinking perverted thoughts of someone? At best though, he hits on women, no? I mean, I don't remember him doing anything that'd raise alarm bells like it did with Brook, Frankie, or even Jiraiya.
    I don't see what you're getting at.
    We have Zoro, Luffy, Smoker, tons of men in the series.
    And you really want to argue that Sanji isn't the pervert type?
    He gets distracted by Woman and Oda had Sanji state Robin's breast and waist size. Its clear he is.

    You're wasting your time if you want to argue Sanji isn't the pervert type.
    Just because you respect women doesn't stop you from being perverted.

    So he isn't as perverted as Brooke, doesn't stop him from being one. Its clear as day he is a pervert.

  19. #30
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity ukimix's Avatar
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    Re: Archetypes in One Piece

    Passion, love, jealousy, and lovers stabbed to death (because of jealousy), gypsy dancers, bullfighting ... all of it can be found in Bisset's Opera Carmen. Here a summary of the final act from wiki:

    Quote Quote:
    Act 4
    A square in Seville. At the back, the walls of an ancient amphitheatre (like the colliseum for bullfigthing).
    Zuniga, Frasquita and Mercédès are among the crowd awaiting the arrival of the bullfighters ("Les voici ! Voici la quadrille !"). Escamillo enters with Carmen, and they express their mutual love ("Si tu m'aimes, Carmen"). As Escamillo goes into the arena Frasquita warns Carmen that José (Carmen former lover) is nearby, but Carmen is unafraid and willing to speak to him. Alone, she is confronted by the desperate José ("C'est toi ! C'est moi !"). While he pleads vainly for her to return to him, cheers are heard from the arena. As José makes his last entreaty, Carmen contemptuously throws down the ring he gave her and attempts to enter the arena. He then stabs her, and as Escamillo is acclaimed by the crowds, Carmen dies. José kneels and sings "Ah! Carmen! ma Carmen adorée!"; as the crowd exits the arena, José confesses to killing the woman he loved.
    In Carmen by Prosper Merimee, the previous novel that influenced Bisset, Carmen is a thief, and a lier who pushes Merimee to a live of crime (Merimee told the storie as if it happened to him).

    If you change: men-stab-women-because-of-jealousy, per women-stab-men-because-of-jealousy... it's pretty much a reference.

    ---------- Post added April 06, 2013 at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was March 27, 2013 at 03:43 PM ----------

    Oda has introduced in this arc a character without precedents: a lover capable of kill for love. This is quite a unique figure or archetype. And in this arc it has some additional ingredients: the lover is a (spanish) flamenco dancer. I have posted two notes about this character: one on Carmen by Bizet, and a vid of the film Carmen by the spanish director Carlos Saura. This director made another film "El amor brujo" ("Love the magician") based on the piece of music of the same title, composed by the spanish musician Manuel de Falla about the andalusian culture. The whole film by Saura, and the music by de Falla portray among other things this kind of passions. There is a song by de Falla which capture the essence of that passion.

    "La cancion del amor dolido" (Song of Suffering Love)

    To me, the best verions of the song is the first one of the three that comes in this vid. I couldn't find it alone.



    Here the lyrics with a free translation I did (surely it's improvable given the limitations of my english).

    Spoiler show


    The river that sounds is the rumors about her lover's unloyalty. The fire represents love, and the water jealousy. Hence, once she listen the rumors, a battle is triggered inside of her between love and jealousy (water and love). And her feelings are so deep that she feels like dying,... but she also feels anger, (the reference to her blood being burned). there you have a mixture that turns a lover into a lover muerderer.... Pretty beautiful poem...

    In Carmen, Bizet's opera, and Saura's film, the murder is no a penalty to the unloyal lover, but a forced consecuence of the fact that it's impossible to live with out the love of Carmen. Nothing to do with punishment.... just passion, and irrational and strong and painful passion. Of course OP doesn't have to include nothing so deep like that. But it's interesting.



    Also here a vid of the section "Cancion del fuego fatuo" as it was filmed in the film by Saura:



    This section "Cancion del Fuego Fatuo" was covered by jazz musician Miles Davis on his album Sketches of Spain (1959) as "Will O' the Wisp". All of them about andalucian culture:



    All of this themes are about andalucian culture. And Violet and mainly her feelings about love are inspired heavily on themes of this culture.
    Last edited by ukimix; April 06, 2013 at 09:58 AM.

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