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Thread: The power of military in HXH

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    The power of military in HXH

    Was thinking about how the world of HXH interact with its military, and I noticed in a rare nod to realism, the military in the world of HXH is vastly stronger than the individuals. Meryem is the only individual said to require a national level military to handle, which means for anything else, the military is massive overkill even if you're talking about the 5 strongest users in the world given Meryem is unfathomably more powerful than any individual in the story. Now, an aura user can easily hide from the said military but ultimately you'd end up having to hide in a place like NGL or Meteor City and we can see that life in these places isn't exactly that great and certainly not the preferred way of how most people would like to spend the rest of their lives.

    Now the first counterexample I think people will mention is that the Spiders took out thousands of Mafia members. But Mafia members are really just random guys with machine guns. They're not the military. If you had 12 James Bonds assault Yorknew, the result would most likely be the same. Although the Mafia talks a lot about their firepower, clearly they're an organization that is supposed to fight other human beings, so they'd have no reason to have specialized weapons that deal with aura users. If you know the enemy are aura users you'd probably use stuff like armor piercing rounds, incendiary weapons, poisoned rounds, or gas grenades. The door to the Z mansion is supposed to represent a challenge to open (especially the big ones) to the most powerful aura users, but unless that door is made out of some sci-fi metal, a tank would be able to simply blow a hole through it. In fact, I remember seeing a question posed on a board: how many doors can Uber Gon open? And the answer is that he'd certainly be able to simply walk through the door (or knock it all down), and yet a tank can definitely do that too.

    Back in Greedland, Tsezguerra planned to fight Gensuru with the aid of the mercenary soldiers. Unless the point is that he's just insane and have no idea what he's talking about, it's implied that professional soldiers can give even aura users trouble. We see that Sniper Rifles fires shots fast enough that is difficult to dodge even with En to pinpoint its location, and sure ordinary rounds might not work (versus Ubogin), but again if you knew your opponents are aura users you'd just use special rounds. In fact the octopus's special ammo that he uses for his sniper rifle is exactly that. Sure those are probably more some kind of biological/aura hybrid ammo, but there's no reason to believe you can't have a technology-based ammo that would harm an aura user. Incendiary weapon would work perfectly well. We know the threat of fire neutralized Gensuru's ability, and there's no reason to believe any other human HXH character will just continue fighting while on fire. Sleeping gas and poisonous gas seems to have no particular resistance, and no if poison can kill Meryem, who leads a race that is often seem using various forms of poisonous weapons, then the Z family resistance isn't going to work on military-grade biological weapon either. Even Killua said it's only normal poison that has no effect on him. It'd be crazy to assume he can shrug off the Rose poison, or any other biological weapon that the military would use against aura users.

    In some sense, HXH is a very bad place for any aspiring evil villian. You can't possibly fight the military with any power you got. You most likely can't even defeat the Hunter's Association, which is the lapdog of the equivalent of the UN. To do anything evil you have to be well connected politically or hide in a country that's basically outside the society (NGL, Meteor City, etc) which presumably has its own drawbacks. An Internet hacker is far more likely to do real damage to the world of HXH compared to any individual attempting to cause harm by brute force. Even the Spiders, we are told, occasionally engages in acts of philantrophy. I assume this isn't because Kuroro sometimes feels like a good guy, but rather even the Spiders know not to totally overstep the limits of law.
    Last edited by Phantron; February 16, 2013 at 01:49 AM.

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  3. #2
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Not enough info to make an informed decision. One thing's for sure though, Nen users can dodge bullets. Hisoka remarked that coin guy's coins were just as fast as bullets so at the very least that means he is able to perceive them and also make an estimate as to its velocity.

    And as we have seen, assault rifles are basically useless against any Nen user worth his salt (Spiders were completely immune to bullets and even Nostrade fodder can take 10 bullets).

    Personally I suspect that non-nen users with guns basically stand no chance against Nen users. If guns were good enough to hurt Nen users, you can bet that the Z's would have trained themselves to use these weapons, and/or concurrently, their Nen abilities would be built on the usage of these firearms, such as through the conjuration of special nen bullets or whatever. Instead, Silva toughs it out with his fists and Illumi throws needles.

    One probably should not overestimate the power of technology in the world of HxH just because the Rose kills anything and everything. No shit a missile would frag Nen users, especially one that is laced with some kind of evolving synthetic virus. But can you justify causing collateral damage amounting to tens of thousands of people? Probably not.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Well, the issue would be that the amount of high level nen users out there is scarce. I don't think mereum is the only one that would require military level operations to deal with. Uvo was able to take a bazooka with his nen alone and early manga chapters show that even without nen it is possible for people to have insane physical capacities (killua could push up to 16 tons if I recall). There are around 600 hunters in the entire world and out of them only a remarkably few make it to even mid level tiers of strength. I would think that just about anyone who is at around gon and killua's level would require actual military to deal with them if other hunters are unavailable. Below that there is the situation that hunters have limited nen for fights. Every bullet, every explosion their aura takes will deplete their nen by the amount of force the bullet or explosion exerted. for people with little nen they won't have the sheer amount of nen required to take all the damage they would from real weapons and at the same time take out the military. Then there is the consideration that there are weapons that can even hurt nen users like the one kuroro had against zeno and zilva although I don't think those are standard.

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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Do not equate the Mafia with the military. While the average military soldier wouldn't know about the existence of aura users, someone higher up does and would have weapons designed to take out aura users. By the way, ordinary assault rifles have no effect on Ubogin, not aura users in general. Ubogin is specialized in taking and withstanding damage. If you got to hide behind someone while approaching say a nest of machine guns, he'd be a better choice to hide behind compared to even Netero (Netero has shown no especially amazing feats of withstanding damage).

    We see in the Yorknew assault only Franklin may have withstood some direct assault (he was in a car that got blown up and shot back). If bullets are so useless every one would just walk through them like a Teminator. Having a fodder being able to take 10 bullets says nothing since automatic weapons fire very fast, and if you're talking about military level of expertise presumably whoever is firing that weapon is far more accurate than a typical Mafia guy just spraying bullest (which is the level of opposition expected for a Mafia member).

    If a fancy knife can pierce the defense of a top aura user alone why wouldn't any special rounds do the same? Ubogin feels pain from an ordinary sniple rifle round. The octopus has his own special rounds for his sniper rifle that pierces through Killua's defense fine. Why wouldn't the equivalent of technology be able to do the same? Sure the average soldier wouldn't think you need to use armor piercing rounds to just injure a person, but again someone up there will let them know they're not fighting
    ordinary people at this point. The speed of an average Hunter is considerably slower than a car, otherwise the Spiders wouldn't drive a car when they're pursuing Kurapika. This isn't like DBZ where people dodge bullets easily because they can already move way faster than bullets. In the Killua versus octopus scene we see that you basically need to use En to pinpoint anything with the speed of a sniper rifle if it's shooting rounds capable of penetrating your defense, and that's just 1 on 1. If multiple people are firing high powered rounds you wouldn't be able to dodge them all, not to mention using En directly lowers your overall defense.

    Obviously since the existence of aura itself is supposed to a secret, you wouldn't have normal members of military that just use special weapons the moment they run into an aura user, though even a standard machine gun would be able to do damage to most aura users (only 2 members of the Spiders walked through gunfire, rest of them avoided it). Now it will probably be very hard to pursue an aura user, but it'd be just as hard to pursue an equivalent of James Bond. Pitou forced Killua to retreat while remote controlling the military, and we can infer the amount of control Pitou has is something along the lines of 'fire at the nearest hostile target'. Certainly nothing he was controlling is capable of any complex decision but we know he managed to wear Killua and Morel out in the process. When the octopus fought the lobster, the octopus hide in a tank and the octopus clearly wasn't going to just block the main cannon head on. The lobster's aura attacks cannot pierce the frontal armor of a tank at all, but is able to slow it down from the side where there's presumably less armor. Given the Ants in general have overwhelming power output compared to human (they usually lose due to a lack of creativity/experience) this says most humans also have no chance to do enough damage to affect a tank from the front. Now that's fine when you're in a narrow corridor like the above fight but if you're in the open ground, the tank is going to get a lot of shots in on you before you can circle around it. Remember that aura users aren't faster than a car in most cases.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Your argument is made over a lot of assumptions about the HxH world, so it's somewhat hard to counter it... I'll say a few things, though.

    The "fancy knife" didn't pierce the defense of a top aura user alone. Kuroro certainly reinforced it. That comment only meant that Silva's skin, without Nen, is so strong that weak knifes wouldn't even dent it. Kuroro's aura is certainly comparable to his, resulting in them evening each other out, and the result was what we saw.

    The powerful Nen users certainly can be faster than cars. Think of it like this: they usually have two "kinds of speed": the Travel Speed and the Battle Speed. The Battle Speed is, obviously, how fast they are during battle, which is, as we see, fast enough to dodge bullets and speed blitz several people from a distance and such, and Travel Speed is the speed they use to travel around, mostly because it's highly impractical and tiresome to use Battle Speed all the time.

    We don't know whether the weapons the Mafia guys used were military-grade armor-piercing or not. In fact, I'd be willing to bet they are, probably even obtained through deals with them.

    It was never mentioned how fast the flea rifle actually was shooting.

    I don't recall Brovuda ever being afraid of the tank firing. Which reminds me of one thing: unless it's a mistranslation, Killua literally says he's going to take the fighter jets and tanks head-on.

    This topic got me thinking about something, though... nothing stops the military from having Nen users.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Are people sure they're not talking about DBZ instead of HXH? If the point is that you're supposed to use aura to pierce aura what's the point to have a good knife? Kuroro is 3 schools away from Reinforcement, meaning any attempt to reinforce a weapon is going to be rather ineffective against anyone of similar level. His physical strength is exactly in the middle amongst the Spiders. If it was possible to run faster than a car, then bypassing Pitou's En would not be nearly as big a deal as you can simply run straight in. Killua, who is shown with the highest speed out of any character in HXH, runs at the speed of a top of the line sports car, and his speed is well above any other character we know of, and even at that speed it's nowhere enough to outrun bullets. If this supposed 'battle speed' is even as fast as say a bullet, there would be reason to even think about how to penetrate Pitou's En. You'd just maintain the said 'battle speed' for enough time to cover a distance of 2km and that'd be it. There's no need to risk anyone in a rather dangerous mission to sneak into the palace (which can easily backfire) if you're sure you can cover that track in matter of seconds.

    The Mafia does not wear armor. Their weapons are designed to deal with other Mafia members primarily. Why would they need to use armor piercing weapons given normal human beings do not survive regular rounds from an assault rifle?

    The Ants can certainly take several hits from a tank given their innate constiution but it's still going to hurt. If military weapons are so useless then the lobster should just stand still and try to stop the tank by himself. Instead he hopped to the side and attacked the treads to disable it. Yes Killua said he was going to take on fighter jets and tanks. I suppose he's going to throw his yoyo midair and knock down a fighter, or maybe call down a lightning bolt to shoot it down? Or maybe punch a tank to dust? Throughout the whole arc he's basically constantly on the run, suggesting he is in absolutely no way capable of fighting even tanks head on let alone a fighter jet. He can't even knock down the flying Ants that operate at an altitude considerably lower than a fighter jet. An aura user might be able to disable tanks relatively easily but he's not going to be able to do meaningful damage to it without exposing himself for prolonged period of time.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member MegamanX195's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    You misunderstood what I meant about the speeds. Think of the "battle speed" as a Kaioken of sorts: you can only really use it in bursts AKA during the fights, for practical reasons. It isn't such an uncommon concept, table-top RPGs often use a similar concept to justify having extremely fast characters only cover a (relatively) small distance while traveling. Even DBZ characters don't travel that fast, it took them a good while to fly all the way from the World Tournament location to Babidi's hideout in the Buu arc.

    They don't need particularly need armor piercing weapons, but any advantage they can have over their rivals counts, so it isn't out of the question.

    Not sure what you mean, a tank is heavy as hell, if Brovuda got ran over it certainly would hurt, I never denied that. A tank's armor is extremely resilient, it's not like a car, it's far, far more durable. Of course Killua isn't doing any of that, he just would be smart. The main problem of being spotted was being hunt down by the ants that could be/were nearby, being the reason for Killua to be as pragmatic and efficient as possible. And this is all talking about only one Nen user. What about 2, 3, or several? Military weapons and such aren't "useless", Nen users are just far more powerful than you're willing to admit. 12 James Bonds would get squashed in an open battlefield against dozens of random Mafia members.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    The average Hunter isn't going to physically move at a speed that is relevent compared to the speed of a bullet. Now it is always harder to hit a moving target so of course speed helps but it's not like DBZ where since the characters are physically faster than whatever firearm you use, they obviously have no fear of it because they can move after the gun was fired and still avoid it comfortably. In the case of HXH you'd need to use a combination of reflex + En to pinpoint where the shots are coming from, and using En would be impractical if multiple guys are firing at you (using En clearly leaves you less aura available to defend for yourself). When the Spiders assaulted the Mafia they didn't exactly charge in from the front. We see the more vulnerable guys (say, Shalunark) are hiding from the shadows. They certainly are not capable of assaulting Terminator-style.

    The Mafia, for the most part, pretty much have no idea Aura even exists. They probably thought the Spiders are just armed with heavy weapons so why would they have the correct weapons to deal with these guys? And why wouldn't 12 James Bonds not be able to achieve similar results? The Spiders didn't attack Yorknew from open ground and an equivalent number of super commandoes can certainly take out 10 or 20 guys in a hurry especially if they're clustered like the way the Mafia members were. Of course the James Bonds would be vulnerable to counterfire, but they could be wearing Kevlar and it's not like you expect a human super commando to actually match an Aura user. The point is that a heavily armed and trained human can come pretty close to duplicating the feat of 'taking out tens of unsuspecting guys in close proximity armed with machine guns'.

    There are certainly far more tanks and fighter jets in the world of HXH compared to the number of powerful Aura users. You're never going to have a numbers advantage versus the military. In fact it's a good thing helicopters apparently do not exist in the world of HXH (presumably they're replaced by airships), because if it does, it'd be pretty similar to the GTA games where despite your character is some kind of super human weapon specialists, you absolutely cannot deal with a helicopter without a weapon that can shoot it down and you can pretty much never outrun it and it's just a matter of time before it guns you down. Unless someone has a specialized anti-air attack (which would make no sense to develop on a personal level, since humans normally do not fly) a helicopter will pretty much be able to gun down any Aura user. The best you can possibly do is find somewhere to lose the helicopter (building, forest, whatever). Likewise you wouldn't actually be able to do anything against a fighter jet, though their inability to hover means you should be able to lose one after a few passes.

    ---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

    From the Aura user point of view, if you want to fight the military you obviously want to fight them in the city around buildings, in the same way how tanks aren't as useful in door to door fighting. However, fighting in close areas means you would be very vulnerable to gas grenades of any kind. Certainly attempting to attack a fortified position like the basement of the president palace is suicide, as the devices that discharge sleeping gas alone would take out any human being except Morel (due to his insane lung capacity). In fact the whole setup of the basement in the presidental palace seems to be an example of how the military fights the aura users, as it'd be pretty pointless to just soak a whole room with sleeping gas while under surveilience if you're fighting ordinary human beings (better off just have turrets or stuff). If the Aura user ever get forced into open ground he'd be in trouble against a tank, let alone a fighter jet.

    The Aura user most likely can flee if he just goes from city to city and avoid any prolonged exposure in the open ground but then that means ultimately you'd have to flee to a country like Meteor City, and even a place Meteor City presumbly has its own rules. After all, Meteor City has its special status because they're basically some kind of isolationist entity. If a member of the Meteor City then just openly attacks a government entity, one would imagine either Meteor City loses its haven status rather quickly, or Meteor City will renounce that person as a citizen. Even the Spiders aren't even officially at war with the Mafia (Kuroro faked their death), so it's hard to imagine any faction of Meteor City openly declare war on another government.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Popo's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    aaaahhhhhhhh great thread!!! After I've read through your posts, I'll interject my own opinion here.

    EDIT: OK. So in this world, we have superhumans and fantastic elements--but the presence of real-world technology looms overhead. I wholeheartedly agree with Phantron--the military is significantly more powerful than any one practitioner of Nen. The use and control of "Nen" for combat purposes is akin to any advanced martial art/self-defense system...with a boost. No one person is invincible, although remarkable strength is possible.

    If Uvogin represents the limits of human strength, an Enhancer at his best has the ability to withstand the blast of a bazooka. Meruem, the strongest character in the entire series (and non-human with a significantly tougher exoskeleton), was nearly destroyed with an atomic weapon. Nen cannot compete with weapons on this level.

    I think that, had Meruem created his army of 500,000 soldiers and spread them across the world, the possibility of world destruction would be incredibly high...not only due to their own strength, but due to the inevitability of a nuclear holocaust. Given the scenario of mass invasion by the Chimera Ants, would it be too far-fetched to assume that the Hunters Association would have just bombed the hell out of everyone and started over anew? It's becoming clearer and clearer that despite the privileges bestowed upon licensed Hunters, their world is very much akin to a plutocracy. Hunters (and Nen users) are the hired guns for the nobility, the wealthy, and those truly in power.

    Think about it... Hunters possess physical strength, but they pale in comparison to those who have financial strength and political pull (which is why a character like Pariston is so dangerous). Hunters get a taste of the good life whereas those on the top of the social strata experience far greater privileges and benefits due to their $ucce$$. It seems that numerous factions are arising in their world with severely different political beliefs, each striving to attain/retain power--which will ultimately culminate in war. Beyond Netero's faction, Gyro's faction, the Hunters' Association, Meteor City, the existence of an outside world completely restricted to "everyone" (isn't this suspicious???? Surely there is a reason outside of "danger" as to why this is the case)... Each side is building its own army in order to achieve its own aims. I anticipate things really getting out of hand.
    Last edited by Popo; February 16, 2013 at 11:10 PM.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member Captain Sicarius's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    The doors might be made from some sci-fi material but with some inconsistency like a lot of things in the manga...

    It's probably counterweights or springs or something, but since killua's yoyos had 50 kilos each (An osmium one would weight way less for example) if the door were made from this material I assume that door would be so hard it would take tank cannon shots easily, actually I think even if the cannon round were made entirely from tungsten it would just bounce back and cut the tank in half... But it would weight way way more than the 256 tons that the last one is supposed to be so its not from the yoyo material.


    Uvo stopped an rpg shot with his hand... A shaped charge that propels a piece of copper so fast that no ordinary bullet can reach that speed (like 8000 meters per second) what I'm saying is that he basically could stop a 30mm round with his hands too, although there is a chance he wouldn't be able to see it coming since an rpg is way slower BEFORE exploding, so no a 50cal piercing round wouldn't hurt him at all with ken on.


    it's implied that professional soldiers probably use nen also, we were showed in many ways how guns are useless against strong nen users and we are yet to see any togashi shenanigan that implies that there are crazy ways to beat nen users, mostly i'd say they are almost unknown of and they will never be prepared for them. Having to use an h bomb to kill the strongest of them was just awesome I really do like this boundary it makes the characters feel more like humans, toriko and dragon ball for example made sure to show that any monster strong enough can go and take on everything.


    the thing about hxh is that togashi gives us so little manga that we can't draw conclusions about anything right now lol... Since deus ex is always used on all shonen, magic bullets might appear eventually or reach the crazy levels of dragon ball in the future...
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    If guns are so useless on aura users then why did Spider members like Machi and Shalunark attacked the Mafia from hidden spots? When Shalunark controlled a random guy with a machine gun, Kurapika leapt out of the way of the gunfire, and this is a guy who can withstand Ubogin at 50% output while taking no damage. Remember, Ubogin clearly thought of Kurapika as an equal, and he was confused to Kurapika's true type since he couldn't hurt him at 50% output, which is something a Manipulation user should not be able to do. This implies his 50% output is enough to hurt an equal level Manipulation user (which is why he's confused), and yet Kurapika didn't just tank the bullets. Sure he most likely wasn't in Scarlet Eye form and that decreases his defense, but the point is that so far the only person who tanks bullets head on is Ubogin, and he's trained specifically to do so. All the other characters avoided gunfire, and yet because we're clearly not talking about a DBZ world where people avoid bullets by simply being faster than bullets, this means they're only able to avoid them at least partially due to the user's lack of skill.

    The Spiders said 'normal guns' cannot hurt Ubogin's body, and there's no reason to believe why Mafia would have special rounds designed to take down aura users given they spend their whole time fighting normal human beings. Further, Ubogin's focus on building his body is exceptional. Not including Uber Gon, I can't think of any better human you'd want to hide behind as a human shield in this series. Even guys who are presumably stronger than him (Netero, Silva, Ging, etc) aren't necessarily any better at 'tanking' because it's actually pretty dumb to focus solely on physical offense/defense in the world of HXH.

    You don't need crazy ways to kill Aura users. Setting them on fire does the trick. Any weapon-grade biological weapon will kill them easily. The underground bunker at the presidential palace is a perfect example of how to capture Aura users. Once trapped in the blast doors, there's no way any aura user can possibly punch through the blast doors and only Morel has a chance of escaping (he can pretend he got knocked out and then escape when the doors open since he can hold his breath for an absurdly long time). If helicopters exist in HXH, one of those can gun down basically any Aura user easily unless one happens to have developed ability to deal with aerial opponent (extremely unlikely as aura users usually develop ability to fight each other, and none of them fly).

    ---------- Post added at 02:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Popo View Post
    aaaahhhhhhhh great thread!!! After I've read through your posts, I'll interject my own opinion here.

    EDIT: OK. So in this world, we have superhumans and fantastic elements--but the presence of real-world technology looms overhead. I wholeheartedly agree with Phantron--the military is significantly more powerful than any one practitioner of Nen. The use and control of "Nen" for combat purposes is akin to any advanced martial art/self-defense system...with a boost. No one person is invincible, although remarkable strength is possible.

    If Uvogin represents the limits of human strength, an Enhancer at his best has the ability to withstand the blast of a bazooka. Meruem, the strongest character in the entire series (and non-human with a significantly tougher exoskeleton), was nearly destroyed with an atomic weapon. Nen cannot compete with weapons on this level.

    I think that, had Meruem created his army of 500,000 soldiers and spread them across the world, the possibility of world destruction would be incredibly high...not only due to their own strength, but due to the inevitability of a nuclear holocaust. Given the scenario of mass invasion by the Chimera Ants, would it be too far-fetched to assume that the Hunters Association would have just bombed the hell out of everyone and started over anew? It's becoming clearer and clearer that despite the privileges bestowed upon licensed Hunters, their world is very much akin to a plutocracy. Hunters (and Nen users) are the hired guns for the nobility, the wealthy, and those truly in power.

    Think about it... Hunters possess physical strength, but they pale in comparison to those who have financial strength and political pull (which is why a character like Pariston is so dangerous). Hunters get a taste of the good life whereas those on the top of the social strata experience far greater privileges and benefits due to their $ucce$$. It seems that numerous factions are arising in their world with severely different political beliefs, each striving to attain/retain power--which will ultimately culminate in war. Beyond Netero's faction, Gyro's faction, the Hunters' Association, Meteor City, the existence of an outside world completely restricted to "everyone" (isn't this suspicious???? Surely there is a reason outside of "danger" as to why this is the case)... Each side is building its own army in order to achieve its own aims. I anticipate things really getting out of hand.
    Well the biggest problem with Aura user is indeed their lack of numbers. Let's say you take Hisoka and put him against a tank. His best bet would be to dig a hole with some traps in it and then use his ability to make the hole look like it's not there, though in this case you're using a top class Aura user for what can be accomplished by random terrorists that know how to set up IEDs. Hisoka certainly can't possibly punch a tank and do any meaningful damage to it. A tank has far too much momentum for his bubblegum to affect it (it'll just snap). Perhaps he can attempt to jump on the hatch and try to lift it with his superhuman strength and then try to kill all the guys inside, though in the process of doing this another tank can simply hit him with anti-personnel weapons (most likely a machine gun) while he's trying to lift the hatch. I guess it's possible he can hide somewhere and hope the guys inside the tank come out to pursue him, though if I was in the tank and I'm told we're fighting some superhuman dudes, I sure won't be leaving the tank. Maybe Hisoka can sacrifice both of his hands and reflect the main cannon of a tank back the same way he reflected Razor's ball back. So really, you sacrifice a guy with Hisoka's power just to take out a tank? There are certainly far more tanks than people of Hisoka's level of power in the world of HXH. And that's not even the worst matchup. Against a fighter jet, even Hisoka is completely helpless, and against a helicopter, there is also no escape.

    And that's exactly why Meryem, despite his godlike powers relative to human beings, still waited for his army to complete because he knows you can't expect to fight the military with just a handful of superhuman beings. That is why he went through the trouble to make it look like Diego is still alive, so that neighboring countries can't officially invade until he's ready. In fact, even with his army, I really doubt they're going to just march down like a bunch of Terminators and punch everything in the way. No, these guys will probably still be piloting tanks and fighter jets and whatnot. Aura probably gives these guys enhanced ability to pilot any vehicle and wield any firearm, and of course these Ant soldiers will be more than a match for any other guy on foot. It's said that if Meryem completed his army it'd be the end of humanity. We can assume that since every random dictator in the world of HXH owns the Rose, the world of HXH is at a very precarious situation where if anyone makes a major move it can cause a chain reaction and world-ending war. Now, to stop Meryem's army you'd obviously have to launch enough Rose to wipe out an entire nation, and that will probably stop his army, but because Meryem has a political front (Diego) for his nation, this means there will be other countries who will just view the attack as a preemptive strike against another nation and launch their own Roses and then you'd pretty much have the entire world wiped out. Presumably another dictator will say 'The UN claimed my fellow dictator Diego got abducted by aliens and wiped out the country! I bet next month they will claim aliens abducted me so I better strike first!" And of course as soon as any other nation launches its Rose arsenal you'll just have a nuclear holocaust.

    The Hunters may be elite, but they're still pawns to those with great political power. The presence of the military, especially the Rose, guaranteeds that you cannot attempt to overpower a nation by force at the individual level (Meryem's invasion is more like a coup d'etat and he also went through the trouble to make it look like Diego is still alive). In fact I think the power of the military is a necessity for the worldview we have. If the military is not so overwhelming powerful, then we have to ask question like 'how come a rogue group of Aura users haven't wiped out or take over an entire country by now?'

    If you replace Meryem with any collection of evil guys (Spiders, Zs, Pariston, whatever) and have them attempt to assault Diego's palace, and let's say this time Diego decides to evacuate to his underground bunker after the outside guards got slaughtered instead of watching girls in bunny suits dancing, it's almost certain no matter what elite human beings you pick will be completely wiped out when attempting to breech the underground bunker, because the blast door + sleeping gas combo will absolutely stop any collection of humans. Meryem might be strong enough to punch through the blast doors, but certainly no human can possibly get through those blast doors with force. I guess the evil villians could have someone attempt to infiltrate the ground bunker ahead of time, though at that point you're no longer doing brute force and in this case you'd probably be better off just trying to control one of the girls in bunny suits and have them kill Diego. Of course at this point you're certainly no longer fighting the military head on, but there's never any doubt that Aura users can assassinate key military figures successfully. Assassination usually would be insufficient to displace a government at any rate.

    ---------- Post added at 03:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 AM ----------

    A point of clarification. Assassination is not the same thing as fighting a military head on. If the Zs got an assignment to kill Diego, they can probably pull it off (easiest way would be to have Ilumi control one of the girls in bunny suit, and use the imbued powers via his controlling to kill Diego). After that, the Zs better start packing up their bags and move to Meteor City because there is absolutely no way they can possibly withstand an assault on their home by the military. Most likely the Hunters will come first just because Hunters are supposed to be the peacekeepers of the world. Sure Diego is a dictator but you don't just murder a head of the state while the Hunter's Association looks the other way. If the Hunter's Association is somehow unable to take out the Zs despite their position as the preeminent organization of the world, then the miltary can certainly bomb the Z's estate to smithreens. I guess since information on Zs are unknown in theory they can attempt to live a fugitive life, though it seems like far easier to just move to Meteor City. And in the end, the Zs would not have done anything meaningful to the regime itself, as someone else will just take over Diego's spot. Even coup d'etats must be extremely hard to pull off, because otherwise random group of Aura users would've already tried to do this. I mean, we've seen all kinds of crazy guys that are allowed to become Hunters, so why wouldn't a crazy guy want to take over a country if it was easily doable?
    Last edited by Phantron; February 17, 2013 at 02:48 AM.

  16. #12
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Uriel's Avatar
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    I just need to say 4 things.
    1) Military probably deals Aura users with Aura users. If I recall correctly, there was Nen users in the NGL palace as part of the top military of that country.

    2) MIlitary probably knows that the abilities vary a lot and have a wide range of effects. In the other side, gunpower is predictable. So, it's more convenient to deal with Nen instead of Guns since you don't know what the other user has as ability. We could say that Bullets can pierce perfectly fine trough Novu Ten or Ren, but his ability allows him to easily dodge them by sending them to his mansion.

    3) Speed and Velocity (not sure if I picked the right words, sorry) are not quite the same. You can travel really slow (at 30 km/h) and react incredibly fast (0.01s) .

    4) Gunpower overpower Nen users. That's pretty much clear for me. But one Nen user can deal with TONS of not nen users until they fall down. With 100 Nen Users I believe it's possible to take out an entire Nation Army with full military power.
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  17. #13
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Are people sure they're not talking about DBZ instead of HXH? If the point is that you're supposed to use aura to pierce aura what's the point to have a good knife? Kuroro is 3 schools away from Reinforcement, meaning any attempt to reinforce a weapon is going to be rather ineffective against anyone of similar level. His physical strength is exactly in the middle amongst the Spiders. If it was possible to run faster than a car, then bypassing Pitou's En would not be nearly as big a deal as you can simply run straight in. Killua, who is shown with the highest speed out of any character in HXH, runs at the speed of a top of the line sports car, and his speed is well above any other character we know of, and even at that speed it's nowhere enough to outrun bullets. If this supposed 'battle speed' is even as fast as say a bullet, there would be reason to even think about how to penetrate Pitou's En. You'd just maintain the said 'battle speed' for enough time to cover a distance of 2km and that'd be it. There's no need to risk anyone in a rather dangerous mission to sneak into the palace (which can easily backfire) if you're sure you can cover that track in matter of seconds.
    "battle sPeed" is significantly faster than "travel sPeed". It's the difference between moving slower than a car and so fast a normal human being can't even SEE you, as Killua did in Heaven's Arc.

    Quote Quote:
    The Mafia does not wear armor. Their weapons are designed to deal with other Mafia members primarily. Why would they need to use armor piercing weapons given normal human beings do not survive regular rounds from an assault rifle?
    You make tremendous assum tions about firearms in HxH. Weaons don't get any stronger in the real world than 50 cal and they're a ain in the ass in terms of recoil and weight (and ca acity). Assault rifles are generaly as good as it gets. Rockets? Yeah sure but they're hard to hit mobile targets.

    Quote Quote:
    If guns are so useless on aura users then why did Spider members like Machi and Shalunark attacked the Mafia from hidden spots? When Shalunark controlled a random guy with a machine gun, Kurapika leapt out of the way of the gunfire, and this is a guy who can withstand Ubogin at 50% output while taking no damage. Remember, Ubogin clearly thought of Kurapika as an equal, and he was confused to Kurapika's true type since he couldn't hurt him at 50% output, which is something a Manipulation user should not be able to do. This implies his 50% output is enough to hurt an equal level Manipulation user (which is why he's confused), and yet Kurapika didn't just tank the bullets. Sure he most likely wasn't in Scarlet Eye form and that decreases his defense, but the point is that so far the only person who tanks bullets head on is Ubogin, and he's trained specifically to do so. All the other characters avoided gunfire, and yet because we're clearly not talking about a DBZ world where people avoid bullets by simply being faster than bullets, this means they're only able to avoid them at least partially due to the user's lack of skill.

    The Spiders said 'normal guns' cannot hurt Ubogin's body, and there's no reason to believe why Mafia would have special rounds designed to take down aura users given they spend their whole time fighting normal human beings. Further, Ubogin's focus on building his body is exceptional. Not including Uber Gon, I can't think of any better human you'd want to hide behind as a human shield in this series. Even guys who are presumably stronger than him (Netero, Silva, Ging, etc) aren't necessarily any better at 'tanking' because it's actually pretty dumb to focus solely on physical offense/defense in the world of HXH.
    Wing's shitty aura demonstration shows that touching a wall with Ren creates a crater. A single bullet, whether its from a rifle or 50 cal does far less damage than that. Yet Nen users regularly block attacks stronger than that (Wing didn't even punch the wall - he just touched it). Kura ica is garbage when he's not in red eye mode. It's not a matter of %'s either - he's far stronger than 2x when in red eye mode (owing to his anger or some shit, i'm guessing). Also, regarding the argument about bullet speeds, notice how he blocked SMG bullets fired full auto with his CHAINS. Togashi is inconsistent. But the overall picture he paints is that Nen users - or at least decent Nen users - can take firearms like nothing.

    Quote Quote:
    You don't need crazy ways to kill Aura users. Setting them on fire does the trick. Any weapon-grade biological weapon will kill them easily.
    Nen blocks against fire. WHat do you think an exPlosion is? WeaPon grade bio weaPons are rare and banned by the Geneva convention. Good luck on unleashing it in a city btw, which is where a Hunter being Pursued by the military would be btw.

    Quote Quote:
    The underground bunker at the presidential palace is a perfect example of how to capture Aura users. Once trapped in the blast doors, there's no way any aura user can possibly punch through the blast doors and only Morel has a chance of escaping (he can pretend he got knocked out and then escape when the doors open since he can hold his breath for an absurdly long time). If helicopters exist in HXH, one of those can gun down basically any Aura user easily unless one happens to have developed ability to deal with aerial opponent (extremely unlikely as aura users usually develop ability to fight each other, and none of them fly).
    Or someone with decent emission could take down a choPPer. Or throwing weaPons, like cards or needles or throwing knives. Damn even Pebbles reinforced with aura. Or ranged weaPons like chains, yoyos, Or hey Nen users could Pick uP rifles themselves, no?

    Quote Quote:
    Or maybe punch a tank to dust? Throughout the whole arc he's basically constantly on the run, suggesting he is in absolutely no way capable of fighting even tanks head on let alone a fighter jet. He can't even knock down the flying Ants that operate at an altitude considerably lower than a fighter jet. An aura user might be able to disable tanks relatively easily but he's not going to be able to do meaningful damage to it without exposing himself for prolonged period of time.
    How many tons can Killua push? 12 tons when he was a noob? That's more than enough to dent tank armor. Imagine what it would be like with Nen.

  18. #14
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    I just need to say 4 things.
    1) Military probably deals Aura users with Aura users. If I recall correctly, there was Nen users in the NGL palace as part of the top military of that country.

    2) MIlitary probably knows that the abilities vary a lot and have a wide range of effects. In the other side, gunpower is predictable. So, it's more convenient to deal with Nen instead of Guns since you don't know what the other user has as ability. We could say that Bullets can pierce perfectly fine trough Novu Ten or Ren, but his ability allows him to easily dodge them by sending them to his mansion.

    3) Speed and Velocity (not sure if I picked the right words, sorry) are not quite the same. You can travel really slow (at 30 km/h) and react incredibly fast (0.01s) .

    4) Gunpower overpower Nen users. That's pretty much clear for me. But one Nen user can deal with TONS of not nen users until they fall down. With 100 Nen Users I believe it's possible to take out an entire Nation Army with full military power.
    One hundred Aura users isn't close to be able to take a country. That's directly in contradiction of the Ant's plan to take over the world where they're supposed to have 500K soldiers that can use Aura with base physical stats that far exceeds human beings on top of their existing personnel. Meryem alone can take out hundreds of aura users by himself and even he didn't attempt to wage war alone. At any rate if you don't count people who are the fodder like the random Hunters that get murdered, 100 Aura users could represent the total combat strength of the Hunter's Association and they're the most powerful non government organization in the world of HXH. It's also inconsistent with the Hunter's Association's role. We know they're really pawns for powerful governments not the other way around. If they could defeat a nation head on why would they take orders from others? Even if they've no ambitions to conquer, there's no reason a government would have power over an organization that can take out another country.

    While people can have extremely good reaction speed, it is easy to lay out enough suppressive fire that the only way to dodge it is if you're faster than bullets (DBZ style) or you can do the bullet time stuff like Matrix. Actually bullet time is basically Killua's enhanced lightning speed, but only one character can do that. To react that fast requires an extremely high degree of concentration and will quickly deplete your aura reserves. And again because Aura users are very rare we're not talking about one guy versus one machine gun. It's quite possible you've 1 guy versus a hundred soldiers and multiple vehciles at the same time. The Ants grunt soldiers were killed by guns wielded by security in NGL, and one of the grunt survived a hit from Gon's Jajaken. It's pretty clear the grunt that survived the Jajaken isn't meant to be a special one (he might be slightly hardy than others but it's not like he's a Royal Guard born to the wrong class). Kite also remarked that untrained humans can't defeat Ants even with weapons, and given the state of NGL it's reasonable to assume they wouldn't have a strong military.

    Now an Aura user could overpower a lot of unsuspecting soldiers because their existence is relatively unknown so an ordinary soldier isn't going to know this, though any secret of Aura is likely to go completely out of the bag if there are any prolonged incidence of Aura users fighting the military. The fact that Aura remains an unknown concept to the vast majority of the population suggests such an incidence most likely has never occurred, and given even in the Hunter's Association we see a lot of psychos who really should not be trusted with anything, the only conclusion is that there's no way to fight any reasonable military head on. Now, an Aura user surely can subvert a government, but at that point you're talking more about politics.

    ---------- Post added at 04:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

    Concrete is considered very durable in the world of HXH, and most feats of strength involve deforming or breaking concrete in some way. When Wing first introduced the concept he deformed the wall with sheer force. Hisoka later is shown throwing cards that stick inside a concrete wall. Silva warned the Mafia members to not mess around by deforming a concrete wall with his fist. Gon and Killua surprised Nobunaga who was guarding the only exit to a room by knocking a hole in the concrete wall. Gon earned a spot in the GI playing team by punching a concrete wall (presumably deforming it). When Meryem was born, he made a hole with his tail on whatever material the Ants' nest is made out of (presumbaly comparable to concrete).

    Although making a hole in concrete isn't very hard, it's implicitly understood concrete is durable, to the point it's actually a blind spot as Nobunaga didn't even think about the possibilty of Gon and Killua just knocking the wall down. And modern weapon absolutely can punch a hole through concrete or you should get your money back on your tanks/heavy weapons/bombs.
    Last edited by Phantron; February 17, 2013 at 03:20 PM.

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  20. #15
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    Re: The power of military in HXH

    A powerful nen user probably cant stop a powerful military force. However, the powerful military force cant also cant stop that nen user to kill all the military/government high rankers.

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