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Thread: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

  1. #31
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    If we were to take out all bloodline abilities, their taijutsu training would still count, since they would have already improved their reflexes to completely new levels. In that case, Lee, Kimimaro, Neji would be around Sasuke's level more or less.
    To be fair, being number one in the academy tells little of how good you really are. Sasuke's exam scores were also excellent and it helped. Lee said Neji was the top Genin taking the Chuunin exams that year, without knowing about Gaara at all. And to be fair again, if they were to fight during Part I, I'd expect Neji to defeat Sasuke, since Byakugan is the perfect counter to Sharingan in a close combat.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Yeah, without his Sharingan Sasuke would've been far short from being able to compete with the more talented combatants, even among the genin. Kimimaro would've stomped him. He required the CS to be able to stave off the Sound Four for moments, he was never even remotely a true threat to them. He didn't nearly beat Gaara, he managed to injure him. The outcome of that fight was never in doubt. He beat Naruto through the use of his Sharingan, and then his CS. Sasuke prior to VotE showed nothing that would put him on par with Lee. As soon as Lee decided to open a gate, he would've stomped Sasuke. At the time of the Chunin exam, I'd venture to say he would've lost to almost half of the fighters in the prelims without his Sharingan or CS; Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, Neji, Lee, Dosu, Shino, and I could easily see Shikamaru, Kiba, Naruto, Hinata, Yoroi, and Misumi being added to the list of possibilities. The genius Sasuke had one battle against a serious opponent without his Shairngan or CS; Haku completely shredded him. Obviously some of these individuals have Kekkeis of their own, but quite a few of them do not; and most of them weren't considered geniuses.

  3. #33
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yeah, without his Sharingan Sasuke would've been far short from being able to compete with the more talented combatants, even among the genin.
    Even with Cursed Seal repressing his chakra, Sasuke managed to bet Yoroi, who kept sucking his chakra. He even managed to take on two Rain chuunin and matched Haku in speed until Haku used his bloodline limit jutsu. Without Byakugan, Neji would not have made it as far as he did. Without his bijuu, Rock Lee would have likely beaten Gaara. Out of the genins in the preliminary fights, only Naruto and Lee would have gotten ahead of their own merits.

    I don't see what your point is here.

    Without the free power Minato gave Naruto, Naruto wouldn't have been able to beat Haku or give Orochimaru some trouble when he was attacking Sasuke and Sakura, nor would Naruto have been able to summon Bunta to save him from Gaara. Without Kyuubi, Naruto would have been killed by Sasuke at Valley of the End, ironically due to Naruto not even trying to fight at that time.

    Quote Quote:
    Kimimaro would've stomped him. He required the CS to be able to stave off the Sound Four for moments, he was never even remotely a true threat to them. He didn't nearly beat Gaara, he managed to injure him. The outcome of that fight was never in doubt.
    Like how Kimimaro stomped Kyuubi Mode Naruto and would have stomped Rock Lee and Gaara had it not been for his illness.

    He was fighting FOUR people on his own, off guard. He didn't at that time have an asspull power like Naruto does. Losing to four people on your own does not make one weak. Hell, each of the genin had difficult time on their own fighting one on one - Shikamaru, Kiba, and Naruto needed help and their asses saved.

    And Naruto only beat Gaara because the Kyuubi's chakra helped him summon Bunta and escape that sand coffin. Once again, your point? Sasuke still damaged Gaara with his own power, and unlike Naruto, Sasuke didn't have asspulls to save him. Hell, Gaara even beat Rock Lee, someone who got the better of Sasuke.


    Quote Quote:
    He beat Naruto through the use of his Sharingan, and then his CS.
    Naruto only lasted as long as he did because of the Kyuubi. Sharingan is Sasuke's own power, even if it's bloodline ability. Kyuubi is not Naruto's own, he didn't even work at all to use the power at that time, but Naruto was still able to match Sasuke. Naruto beat Neji solely due to Kyuubi giving him chakra just because Naruto asked for it.

    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke prior to VotE showed nothing that would put him on par with Lee. As soon as Lee decided to open a gate, he would've stomped Sasuke. At the time of the Chunin exam, I'd venture to say he would've lost to almost half of the fighters in the prelims without his Sharingan or CS; Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, Neji, Lee, Dosu, Shino, and I could easily see Shikamaru, Kiba, Naruto, Hinata, Yoroi, and Misumi being added to the list of possibilities. The genius Sasuke had one battle against a serious opponent without his Shairngan or CS; Haku completely shredded him. Obviously some of these individuals have Kekkeis of their own, but quite a few of them do not; and most of them weren't considered geniuses.
    Naruto throughout the series showed so little that would put him on par with Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, or Haku. Hell, Naruto got beaten by Rock Lee in one move, so much quicker than Sasuke's loss. And Sasuke at the time did NOT use his CS, so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

    Haku did not shred him. Haku didn't even come close to beating Sasuke until Naruto joined the fray. Haku was only able eto take out Sasuke because he laid a trap and targeted Naruto instead.

    Why single Sasuke out, but not anyone else? Why not Naruto, who had the Kyuubi handed to him for free, or able to use the power for free without drawbacks? You're seriously underestimating Sasuke here.

  4. #34
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Why single Sasuke out, but not anyone else? Why not Naruto, who had the Kyuubi handed to him for free, or able to use the power for free without drawbacks? You're seriously underestimating Sasuke here.
    Most of what you say on each battle is accurate, but are simply qualifiers. I didn't single out Sasuke, I just responded to a series of comments, and put those comments in context. And I never came close to suggesting that Naruto was any better on this front. You pointed him out. My comments weren't even remotely about Naruto, he wasn't even being considered. Just because I make a comment about Sasuke doesn't indicate that I'm attempting to compare him to Naruto. I just pointed out that for his genius status, Sasuke had a lot of kids around that would've taken him out during Part 1, particularly without use of his bloodline abilities, and that's just reality.

    Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
    Last edited by Impossibility; February 21, 2013 at 12:55 PM.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Why single Sasuke out, but not anyone else? Why not Naruto, who had the Kyuubi handed to him for free, or able to use the power for free without drawbacks? You're seriously underestimating Sasuke here.
    naruto didnt got kyuubi for free the price was he lost his mother,father and lots of people hate him. they never let their children to play with him. also why people think naruto got powers for free just take saga mode he didnt go in frog's place and eat some capsule and next thing he know was he had saga mode but he go there and train to got saga mode just like others when they train to become powerful

  6. #36
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    More importantly, this thread is about bloodline abilities, and Naruto using Kyuubi chakra isn't a bloodline ability by any means. It's an exterior power source he depended on at times, but it has got nothing to do with heritage.

  7. #37
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by vasilis View Post
    with cursed seal though
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yeah, without his Sharingan Sasuke would've been far short from being able to compete with the more talented combatants, even among the genin. Kimimaro would've stomped him. He required the CS to be able to stave off the Sound Four for moments, he was never even remotely a true threat to them. He didn't nearly beat Gaara, he managed to injure him. The outcome of that fight was never in doubt. He beat Naruto through the use of his Sharingan, and then his CS. Sasuke prior to VotE showed nothing that would put him on par with Lee. As soon as Lee decided to open a gate, he would've stomped Sasuke. At the time of the Chunin exam, I'd venture to say he would've lost to almost half of the fighters in the prelims without his Sharingan or CS; Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, Neji, Lee, Dosu, Shino, and I could easily see Shikamaru, Kiba, Naruto, Hinata, Yoroi, and Misumi being added to the list of possibilities. The genius Sasuke had one battle against a serious opponent without his Shairngan or CS; Haku completely shredded him. Obviously some of these individuals have Kekkeis of their own, but quite a few of them do not; and most of them weren't considered geniuses.
    As said, Kimimaro likely wouldn't be beatable given he was way beyond the level of genin, strong enough to have been personally chosen by Orochimaru as his next body. Sasuke countered the Sound Four well enough without his CS or Sharingan, and given that they were each taken out by less or similarly talented genin, claiming that he wouldn't have been a threat makes no sense. He did nearly beat Gaara, which was the whole reason his siblings were retreating with him. Naruto wasn't beaten "through" the use of his Sharingan, but through the use of skills. And the Chuunin exam showed that Sasuke was on par with Lee. Sasuke's physical capabilities have nothing to do with his Sharingan. He would have the same potential with or without it. The only question would be how long it would have taken to get to that level.

    I completely fail to understand how you can claim that Sasuke would lose to so many without his Sharingan, as if his Sharingan is the only thing that can grant him a win. Sasuke wins are more in thanks to his genius and tactics then just having the Sharingan. The very fact that most of Sasuke's fights have been against opponents who had counters for the Sharingan's abilities shows this. No Sharingan would have simply meant that Sasuke would have had to become more resourceful, and given how all the other geniuses are portrayed, that would not have been hard.

  8. #38
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    I completely fail to understand how you can claim that Sasuke would lose to so many without his Sharingan, as if his Sharingan is the only thing that can grant him a win. Sasuke wins are more in thanks to his genius and tactics then just having the Sharingan. The very fact that most of Sasuke's fights have been against opponents who had counters for the Sharingan's abilities shows this. No Sharingan would have simply meant that Sasuke would have had to become more resourceful, and given how all the other geniuses are portrayed, that would not have been hard.
    It's good enough to say that, but that just hasn't been the case. Maybe you can think of some, but I can't think of a single significant battle where Sasuke's Sharingan, or a technique possible because of his Sharingan, or the CS wasn't an essential or integral part of his victory, or survival. Yoroi, Gaara, Naruto, Orochimaru, Deidara, Utachi, B, A, Danzo, Kabuto. You say that Sasuke's genius and tactics wins the battles, but the Sharingan was essential every single time. Sasuke is talented, of that I've little doubt. What I doubt seriously is that he would've achieved the top tier, or close to it, without his Sharingan. Others, some few, have achieved such feats.

  9. #39
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    It's good enough to say that, but that just hasn't been the case. Maybe you can think of some, but I can't think of a single significant battle where Sasuke's Sharingan, or a technique possible because of his Sharingan, or the CS wasn't an essential or integral part of his victory, or survival. Yoroi, Gaara, Naruto, Orochimaru, Deidara, Utachi, B, A, Danzo, Kabuto. You say that Sasuke's genius and tactics wins the battles, but the Sharingan was essential every single time. Sasuke is talented, of that I've little doubt. What I doubt seriously is that he would've achieved the top tier, or close to it, without his Sharingan. Others, some few, have achieved such feats.
    It hasn't been the case because there hasn't been a need for it. You're arguing that because he always had it, that if he never had it, he wouldn't have come up with another means to fight. Sasuke's speed, swordsmanship, and his regular techniques aren't reliant upon him having the Sharingan. He would still have the capability of them with or without it. And given that all the ninjas noted to be speedsters (Lee, Gai, Minato, Ee) are all top tier mainly due to said speed, there would be nothing preventing Sasuke from doing likewise. There's not one example of a fast ninja that wasn't considered top tier. Throw in his intelligences, and odds are he would simply be another Minato, san teleportation.

  10. #40
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Here's the thing about the whole "Sasuke's better than everyone without the Sharingan." When I said he was the best in his class before even having the Sharingan, I wasn't comparing him to everyone while they're using their own bloodline abilities. So starting these lists of ninja he'd lose to while handicapped is a waste of time.

    Now, if you want to take Sharingan-less Sasuke and put him up against members of his class sans their own bloodline limits, you'll find that as I stated before, Sasuke is superior to them all. All of them.

    As for the scenarios where he's failed to defeat someone without the Sharingan, look at what he DID manage to do.

    First off, he beat Haku in a speed match, aswell as in close combat. He also saw through and defeated Zabuza's mizu bunshin. He also took on Gozu and Meizu by himself. There isn't a ninja in his class at that particular time who could've done as well.

    ---------- Post added at 01:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 AM ----------

    It's also important to remember that the Sharingan does not:

    Increase one's chakra reserve
    Make them faster
    Enhance their proficiency with shape manipulation
    Increase physical strength
    Increase intelligence

    Sasuke is elite in every aspect I just listed, and it can't be blamed on the Sharingan.

  11. #41
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by suraj5898 View Post
    naruto didnt got kyuubi for free the price was he lost his mother,father and lots of people hate him. they never let their children to play with him. also why people think naruto got powers for free just take saga mode he didnt go in frog's place and eat some capsule and next thing he know was he had saga mode but he go there and train to got saga mode just like others when they train to become powerful
    Naruot was in no danger from training to get into Sage Mode because Paa was there to make sure he didn't get turned into a frog. He was pretty safe around Paa.

    THe Kyuubi was still free and not much of a price considering the power it gave Naruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Most of what you say on each battle is accurate, but are simply qualifiers. I didn't single out Sasuke, I just responded to a series of comments, and put those comments in context. And I never came close to suggesting that Naruto was any better on this front. You pointed him out. My comments weren't even remotely about Naruto, he wasn't even being considered. Just because I make a comment about Sasuke doesn't indicate that I'm attempting to compare him to Naruto. I just pointed out that for his genius status, Sasuke had a lot of kids around that would've taken him out during Part 1, particularly without use of his bloodline abilities, and that's just reality.

    Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
    If you've read a lot of discussions here, then you'll realize why. Too many people whine about Sasuke and use horrible arguments to make him look bad, usually letting Naruto get away with the same thing.

  12. #42
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    More importantly, this thread is about bloodline abilities, and Naruto using Kyuubi chakra isn't a bloodline ability by any means. It's an exterior power source he depended on at times, but it has got nothing to do with heritage.
    No. Naruto as kyubi's jinchuuriki is somehow a bloodline ability of the uzumaki clan. So using the kyubi's chakra has something to do with his heritage.

    So even if the kyubi is an exterior power source like you want to believe, but still, that power source is useless without his heritage and his bloodline.

  13. #43
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Naruto isn't like Mito and Kushina who were specifically chosen because of their unique ability to suppress the Kyuubi. He's shown no sign of their power, and the events surrounding his usage would suggest otherwise.

  14. #44
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313
    No. Naruto as kyubi's jinchuuriki is somehow a bloodline ability of the uzumaki clan. So using the kyubi's chakra has something to do with his heritage.
    You worded it wrong, but you're actually right for once. Naruto couldn't be a Jinchuuriki without being born with a body that could contain Kurama, regardless of the kind of seal used. Because he's an Uzumaki, his body was strong enough for the seal to allow Kurama to be placed inside of him. So... his Kurama chakra can actually be blamed on genetics, since he'd never be Kurama's host without Uzumaki heritage. Well, maybe if he was a full-blooded Senju, or one of the other clans that have become ninja who have become jinchuuriki.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Housing a Bijuu isn't limited to just the Uzumaki clan. While it takes specific people to become a Jinchuuriki, it's not limited to a certain bloodline. Mito and Kushina weren't special because they could become the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, they were special because they could take the Kyuubi down and seal it with their own unique chakra. Naruto doesn't have that ability.

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