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Thread: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

  1. #46
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It hasn't been the case because there hasn't been a need for it. You're arguing that because he always had it, that if he never had it, he wouldn't have come up with another means to fight. Sasuke's speed, swordsmanship, and his regular techniques aren't reliant upon him having the Sharingan. He would still have the capability of them with or without it. And given that all the ninjas noted to be speedsters (Lee, Gai, Minato, Ee) are all top tier mainly due to said speed, there would be nothing preventing Sasuke from doing likewise. There's not one example of a fast ninja that wasn't considered top tier. Throw in his intelligences, and odds are he would simply be another Minato, san teleportation.
    The speedsters you listed, are in my mind, faster than Sasuke. Not only that, but speed is a single component of their might. Lee isn't considered top tier, just to point out. But even so, Lee and Gai are taijutsu masters possessing immense strength and the ability to open their gates. That's something that sets them far apart. A has his great strength, and his extremely high offensive and defensive capabilities utilising his Raiton Armour. And Minato sans teleportation is useless compared to Minato utilising his S/T ninjutsu, something that defined him. Sasuke would be talented without his Sharingan, but he wouldn't compare to the bigs. And individuals who aren't considered geniuses would likely equal, or exceed, his abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Here's the thing about the whole "Sasuke's better than everyone without the Sharingan." When I said he was the best in his class before even having the Sharingan, I wasn't comparing him to everyone while they're using their own bloodline abilities. So starting these lists of ninja he'd lose to while handicapped is a waste of time.

    Now, if you want to take Sharingan-less Sasuke and put him up against members of his class sans their own bloodline limits, you'll find that as I stated before, Sasuke is superior to them all. All of them.
    Chouji would probably win. Lee, isn't a member of the same class, but if he's considered he'd win. Naruto even without Kyuubi would have SM and would undoubtedly win. We haven't seen much of the others recently, so the extent of their abilities remains uncertain. I'd wager that Shino would probably be difficult to handle.

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  3. #47
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Just to add, no one in sasukes class had kekkei genkai.
    Meh

  4. #48
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    No. Naruto as kyubi's jinchuuriki is somehow a bloodline ability of the uzumaki clan. So using the kyubi's chakra has something to do with his heritage.

    So even if the kyubi is an exterior power source like you want to believe, but still, that power source is useless without his heritage and his bloodline.
    No, being a Jinchuuriki doesn't grant you a bloodline ability. Besides, Naruto's Kyuubi chakra only granted him more time to fight and gave him an enhanced durability. Other than that, he was unable to make use of it for nearly the entire series, let it be Part I.
    The Kyuubi is an exterior power source not because I want it to be, but because it really is. You can take out Kyuubi and make someone else the Jinchuuriki. And there is no such thing that requires the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki to be an Uzumaki. That's because they were perfect candidates that they were chosen. Other than that, a Jinchuuriki generally doesn't need heritage. Bee needed to be a good match for A, and that was the only requirement. Gaara was a weak child and he was chosen as one.

    In short, his heritage has nothing to do with his Jinchuuriki status. His father made him one, because he was rather forced to and he believed in his son, not because of huge chakra reserves.

    ---------- Post added at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Just to add, no one in sasukes class had kekkei genkai.
    I thought Hinata was from Sasuke's class. Neji was definitely from the previous one, though.

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  6. #49
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Just to add, no one in sasukes class had kekkei genkai.
    Naruto >> he become QB jin because he has a Uzumaki body
    Shino >>
    Hinata >>
    Chuji >>

    and ....

    when Sasuke was number one , he hadn't any of access to Sharingan ...
    خداحافظ

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    Naruto >> he become QB jin because he has a Uzumaki body
    Shino >>
    Hinata >>
    Chuji >>

    and ....

    when Sasuke was number one , he hadn't any of access to Sharingan ...
    Being Kyuubi Jinchuuriki doesn't require you to have an Uzumaki body. They are just good vessels for it, that's all.
    As far as I know, what Shino and Chouji use are hidden techniques, not Kekkei Genkai.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    Chouji would probably win. Lee, isn't a member of the same class, but if he's considered he'd win. Naruto even without Kyuubi would have SM and would undoubtedly win. We haven't seen much of the others recently, so the extent of their abilities remains uncertain. I'd wager that Shino would probably be difficult to handle.
    You quoted my post, but again, you're still giving Sasuke fights against ninja who are using clan specific/genetically acquired advantages while Sasuke's are taken from him. And I don't even know how we got into a discussion about Part 2. I made no reference to it whatsoever.

    Sasuke is definitively superior to each and every one of his class when he's not using the Sharingan, and they're not using their genetically acquired abilities. You'll bring up Naruto most likely, but his chakra reserve isn't something earned either. It's a genetic gift acquired from his clan. There isn't a single ninja in his class that can stand up to Sasuke in a direct fight with them both fighting at base level. No one.

    Though admittedly, even if Chouji had access to Baika no Jutsu while Sasuke was Sharinganless, he'd never lay a hand on him, and Sasuke would likely defeat him easily thanks to his huge size making him easier to hit with ranged jutsu.

    This conversation deserves an arena match.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken
    Being Kyuubi Jinchuuriki doesn't require you to have an Uzumaki body. They are just good vessels for it, that's all.
    As far as I know, what Shino and Chouji use are hidden techniques, not Kekkei Genkai.
    You're not required to be an Uzumaki to be the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki. But Naruto is a good vessel BECAUSE of the fact that he's Uzumaki. If he was from a different clan with the same physical capabilities, it wouldn't change the fact that his ability to be a jinchuuriki is thanks to the circumstances of his genetic makeup.

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  10. #52
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You're not required to be an Uzumaki to be the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki. But Naruto is a good vessel BECAUSE of the fact that he's Uzumaki. If he was from a different clan with the same physical capabilities, it wouldn't change the fact that his ability to be a jinchuuriki is thanks to the circumstances of his genetic makeup.
    That doesn't change my point, though. It's not a bloodline limit. Having naturally large chakra reserves means nothing in the current context of the discussion.

  11. #53
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You quoted my post, but again, you're still giving Sasuke fights against ninja who are using clan specific/genetically acquired advantages while Sasuke's are taken from him. And I don't even know how we got into a discussion about Part 2. I made no reference to it whatsoever.

    Sasuke is definitively superior to each and every one of his class when he's not using the Sharingan, and they're not using their genetically acquired abilities. You'll bring up Naruto most likely, but his chakra reserve isn't something earned either. It's a genetic gift acquired from his clan. There isn't a single ninja in his class that can stand up to Sasuke in a direct fight with them both fighting at base level. No one.

    Though admittedly, even if Chouji had access to Baika no Jutsu while Sasuke was Sharinganless, he'd never lay a hand on him, and Sasuke would likely defeat him easily thanks to his huge size making him easier to hit with ranged jutsu.

    This conversation deserves an arena match.
    Wait, seriously? Clan specific techniques are techniques anyone is capable of using, it is simply that those individuals have been trained to use it. And Sasuke's Kekkei Genkai is the only thing that has been taken away from him. If I take away Chouji's size techniques or Shino's bugs, the same could be said for Sasuke's Katon techniques that are emblematic of the clan. Anyone is capable of learning them, they're not genetically linked techniques. Each of those individuals had to train to acquire those techniques and abilities. They were by no mean gifted to them. And Lee hasn't shown any clan techniques, and neither has Naruto. If we take Naruto's chakra away, we should take away Sasuke's strong chakra. If you start taking away natural abilities beyond specific clan abilities, we're going to be left with very little to compare. And if we are talking exclusively about Part 1; Lee, Naruto, Shino would remain on the list. And it is likely that I'd add Kiba and maybe even Shikamaru. And with the exception of Lee, everyone was within his class. If we included individuals of comparable ages beyond the class the list would grow.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken
    That doesn't change my point, though. It's not a bloodline limit. Having naturally large chakra reserves means nothing in the current context of the discussion.

    It means everything when those large chakra reserves are directly dependant on his bloodline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    If I take away Chouji's size techniques or Shino's bugs, the same could be said for Sasuke's Katon techniques that are emblematic of the clan.
    Precisely.

    Quote Quote:
    If we take Naruto's chakra away, we should take away Sasuke's strong chakra.
    Yep. We compare only what can be acquired through hard work and training. Not being born into a clan who is the only clan that can have access to these abilities/genetic advantages. Speed, strength, intelligence, fighting ability, and un-enhanced stamina. Because if you start pointing out that Chouji has a large chakra reserve, you're till focusing on the luck of genetics. If you bring up Shino's Kikaichu, then you're banking on his family giving him the Kikaichu to become a host as a child (just like how Naruto was given Kurama).


    Quote Quote:
    If you start taking away natural abilities beyond specific clan abilities, we're going to be left with very little to compare.
    This is the point, and it's the only way to be fair. Every clan has it's own secrets and it's own genetically acquired handicaps. So, it's impossible to tell who is truly the superior ninja when we have people that are always ready to belittle one's (Sasuke's) accomplishments by blaming them on how powerful the Sharingan is. Or pointing out that Naruto is lucky to have had the Kyuubi placed on him. Or remarking about how clans having secret abilities that no one else can use gives them an unfair advantage. So, we rectify this by stripping EVERYONE of EVERYTHING and putting their base abilities on display. And it is here where Sasuke dwarfs everyone in his class.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    This argument is so stupid it isn't even funny,

    I hate the idea of taking away anything someone wasn't born with or didn't acquire via training or wasn't given. Frankly, we can only speculate what Naruto would have been like if he wasn't given the Kyuubi, or if Sasuke didn't have the Sharigan. I hate getting into it because these arguments rely more on opinion than fact. IMO, you take away the Kyuubi from Naruto as he is now and leave him with Sage Mode to fight EMS, or even MS Sasuke and he gets his ass handed to him in hand basket. Simple fact is, he'd be a powerhouse but Sasuke simply has techniques he can't counter. Likewise, Sasuke currently stands no chance against Naruto.

    On to my next point.

    If we take away the genetic gifts everyone is given, then everyone is exactly the same. Genetics give you every trait you have, and hard work and training merely brings those traits out to their fullest. Sasuke's ability to be fast, and his intelligence are all a product of his genetics. Same as Chouji's weight, Naruto stamina, Shikamaru's brain, and Hinata's tits. All genetics.

    Sasuke's physique, his body and subsequently the strength speed and reflexes he has from it, are all products of genetics. Humans are only as fast and as strong as their genetics allow them to be, we have limits. Aside from his Kekkai Genkai, Sasuke's normal genetics are above and beyond most humans.

    How do we know this? His training for 1 month with Kakashi.

    In one month, Sasuke not only learned his element, mastered chidori, but he also attained a level of speed Gaara's sand couldn't keep up with.

    How does that prove him to be genetically superior? Because it took Lee YEARS of training, ONLY taijutsu and his fitness to achieve that speed. Mind you, this kid trained himself to near death, he wore weights everywhere he went. Not to mention, Lee had achieved that speed being a year older and more developed physically than Sasuke.

    Lee himself was so shocked Sasuke did this, he could only mumble something along the lines of "So this is the potential of a genius".
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    It means everything when those large chakra reserves are directly dependant on his bloodline.
    I still fail to see what does this have to do with bloodline abilities in the series. Never mind, then.
    Larger chakra reserves than usual don't grant you a skill, a technique or anything in that regard. Are the Uzumaki really that special, anyway? Any descendant of the Sage's younger son inherits his life force, anyway.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    Naruto >> he become QB jin because he has a Uzumaki body
    Shino >>
    Hinata >>
    Chuji >>

    and ....

    when Sasuke was number one , he hadn't any of access to Sharingan ...
    Not kekkei genkai, I forgot about hinata though.
    Meh

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    This is the point, and it's the only way to be fair. Every clan has it's own secrets and it's own genetically acquired handicaps. So, it's impossible to tell who is truly the superior ninja when we have people that are always ready to belittle one's (Sasuke's) accomplishments by blaming them on how powerful the Sharingan is. Or pointing out that Naruto is lucky to have had the Kyuubi placed on him. Or remarking about how clans having secret abilities that no one else can use gives them an unfair advantage. So, we rectify this by stripping EVERYONE of EVERYTHING and putting their base abilities on display. And it is here where Sasuke dwarfs everyone in his class.
    You may think it's the only way to be 'fair', but it's also pointless. If you remove chakra reserves, it makes considering ninjutsu, or genjutsu, of any sort near impossible. It leaves us with two aspects; pure 'physical ability'(taijutsu) and 'intelligence'(tactics, strategy, IQ). In the grand scheme of things, it becomes meaningless. Because in the same way you argue that Shino was lucky to have bugs given to him, I could say Sasuke was lucky to be born into a clan in which he spent his childhood being constantly trained and being granted occasional guidance by his genius brother, something others, particularly Naruto, had zero access to. He clearly would have an 'unfair' advantage by this standard. That wasn't natural talent that was just the circumstances of his birth. These things are undoubtedly important within the scope of his physical ability, and also the advancement of his tactics and technique. So 'physical ability' and most elements of 'intelligence' are out as 'fair' measures. That leaves simple IQ; something I'd say Sakura and Shikamaru, possibly Shino, have above Sasuke. So we have our winners. Attempting to put Sasuke out front, you've made the argument reductive, and impossible for anything anyone, including yourself, says on the matter to be anything other than meaningless.

    Oh, and just for fun, even if you just consider 'base abilities' such as speed, strength, and intellect, Sasuke would probably lose to Lee, Shino, Kiba, Neji, and Dosu; to name a few individuals from his age group.

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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility
    Oh, and just for fun, even if you just consider 'base abilities' such as speed, strength, and intellect, Sasuke would probably lose to Lee, Shino, Kiba, Neji, and Dosu; to name a few individuals from his age group.
    This is what I meant. Even after reminding you twice that we're talking about Sasuke at base level against people in his class at base level, you start pulling out ninja that have had extra years of experience. I made it a point to say Sasuke's class multiple times. There's no way you could still make the mistake after that unless you really, REALLY wanna find people that can contend with Sasuke's level of speed and skill to prove your point.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: its naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Kakashi's Moniker 'Copy Ninja' is handed to him all thanks to his ability to over-use Sharingan's copy-ability to unfathomable proportions. Without it, he will not be as famous and versatile as he is now. Let's not even throw his precious Kamui away now. Itachi without his Sharingan doesn't seem too apt to be called a highly skilled ninja as his arsenal isn't as large as you are simply assuming on your own.

    Is this a bash thread? Because even without Sharingan Sasuke is the most versatile Raiton user in the entire manga and was at the top of his class, people like Shikamaru considered him as a role-model. Naruto has no prowess as a ninja, stop kidding yourself, as Chakra doesn't count as a Ninja ability. It's basically a birth-gift due to Uzumaki's superior gene-pool. If that was the case, then only god knows this guy needs intelligence to fill in the multiple blanks.

    P.s: Mei has two KGs, which allow her to use her abilities. People should keep that into consideration as well.
    Last edited by shahdan; February 22, 2013 at 04:15 PM.

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