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Thread: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

  1. #91
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    After whining about other people denying manga facts to support their argument, you end up denying the most blatant fact, or at least that is what I think. It is fact that one can copy a jutsu with the sharingan. This is the primary power of a Sharingan. To elaborate, the Sharingan was said to understand and cancel Ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. This is really clear.
    I'm not whining about it, I'm stating the facts when I say people make up their own manga facts. I don't see where I did the same here.
    And where did I say one cannot copy a jutsu with Sharingan? I'm talking about seals, which seem to be different from jutsu. The seals we've seen so far, whether Danzou's, Hirashin, or Kakashi's, require something special that Sharingan can't seem to copy.

    To elaborate, sealing jutsu seems to be different from ninjutsu and taijutsu that makes it seem like Sharingan can't replicate it, unless sealing jutsu just needs hand seals. If you want to deny that or counter it, then be my guest, as long as you have manga facts and not your opinions.

    Quote Quote:
    As example, during the battle between Kakashi and Zabuza, Kakashi used a genjutsu on Zabuza, then Zabuza revealed his Jutsu to Kakashi. On the battle scene, Kakashi was able to perform the Jutsu without any training. This was possible because the Sharingan help one understand all the steps and mechanism of the Jutsu. This truth is one of the strongest truth about the Sharingan that most Uchiha fan keep denying, and mistakenly think that the Uchiha are smart.
    Okay. Does not prove me wrong in any way.

    And no, they don't mistakenly think that the Uchiha are smart. They're correct in thinking the Uchiha who can understand and copy the jutsu are smart, because it requires them to understand the jutsu in the first place. Basically, anyone with Sharingan who can understand how a jutsu works and can even use it is quite smart. Now, if you want to deny that, go ahead, it's just an opinion with no merit anyway.

    Quote Quote:
    Again, when a sharingan user is doing miracle on using a Jutsu or fighting an opponent, it is not because they have a holy brain. Rather, it is because they have a holy eyes that can zoom everything they see at microscopic level with all the detail on how it is done. The page below give you the details.

    Spoiler show
    That page does not in any way prove your opinion about Sharingan users' intelligence correct, at all. Rather, it only confirms what we know - that Sharingan can copy ninjutsu and taijutsu.


    Quote Quote:
    As you said earier or in one of your post, when I am comparing Naruto and Sasuke I use logic. The reason is that Kishi can create context and plot as he wants and give victory to any of them. This happened with KAbuto. However, when we are discussing Naruto and Sasuke to decide who is smart, I bring up the sharingan factor into play because most of you ignore that. Most of an Uchiha Jutsu learning and analysis is the result of Sharingan.
    So Sasuke learned the fireball jutsu because he had Sharingan, BEFORE he unlocked Sharingan? So Obito could use fireball jutsu because he had Sharingan, BEFORE he unlocked Sharingan? Sasuke added variants to chidori because he saw someone else do it with his Sharingan?

    Your point here makes no sense because most of what Sasuke knew and could analyze came way before he had or used Sharingan. Sasuke is smart of his own accord, not because of Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Sharingan can read and copy the hand-seals, that much is a fact. Henceforth, if any seals only incorporate this, I cannot see how they cannot be learned. Also, I was only talking about his countless Jutsus, which obviously play homage to Sharinagn copy-feature abuse.
    Seals seem to work differently though, as if it's not just about hand seals.

    Ironically, we haven't seen Kakashi use even 10-20% of the jutsu that he's been claimed to know.

  2. #92
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Seals seem to work differently though, as if it's not just about hand seals.

    Ironically, we haven't seen Kakashi use even 10-20% of the jutsu that he's been claimed to know.
    Take Itachi's un-sealing the Tensai holds via reading Kabuto's seals. Albeit it was done through Izanami, the seal was still broken with hand-seals.

    Yeah, what's up with that? It's kind of annoying.

  3. #93
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I know how Jounins are chosen, the fact that Lee wasn't given the rank indicates that the higher-up believe that he isn't yet worthy of it. And your list to prove that Lee is top tier is just hilarious. There are four individuals on the list. The first two he lost against. Even after releasing gates he failed to defeat Gaara. And he wasn't even close to effective as an opponent against Kimimaro. He landed a blow on Haku, so what? Since when is Haku top tier. Naruto without any tails completely wrecked Haku. Seriously, Haku? And landing a blow on Madara after taking chakra from Kurama, and getting a boost from Guy, does not launch you into the upper echelons of shinobi. Honestly, that list was pretty sad. You have to realise that. Even though I'm arguing against Lee's status among the top ranked ninja, I'm a fan of Lee, and that list was just painful; it didn't show his talents whatsoever.
    And since advancing in rank involves more then strength, as we saw via Shikamaru, arguing that he's not strong because he's not a Jounin is silly. It's far more believable that he's not a Jounin because he's not a leader, which is one of the key points of being a Jounin. How is it hilarious, those are some of the strongest of their arcs. It doesn't matter that he lost, when it was made clear that he did better then the majority would have been capable of. And Haku was top tier, above Zabuza by his own admission. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Naruto won because Haku wasn't fighting to kill, and Naruto got boosted by the Kyuubi's chakra. Lastly, Lee has did better against Madara then Naruto did with the same boost. winning is not the sole matter in determining top tier. By your logic, Kakashi, Kisame, and the Sannins wouldn't be top tier because none of them got any actual wins either. Heck, most of Minato's wins have been against nobodies, with the major two ending in ties. So I think my reasoning is perfectly reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You've listed two of Sasuke's many battles to show that his Sharingan wasn't crucial in most of his battles. And even in those two, his Sharingan was essential to his victory. His Sharingan was the only thing that stopped Orochimaru from taking him over, without it Orochimaru would probably be walking around in a Sasuke suit. And his Sharingan was essential for seeing the mines to test his theory on Deidara's element, seeing Deidara's C4 cloud to avoid it, and manipulating Manda into protecting him from Deidara's explosion. He would've been dead and gone from both encounters if he was without his Sharingan.
    Essential? His Sharingan didn't prevent Orochimaru from taking him over, that was his willpower. And it was established that Sasuke could have ended the battle with Deidara much easier then he did. And I don't think you understand what "essential" means, because against Deidara, his lightning nature and CS were much more critical to his win then his Sharingan. He could have won without drawing it out and using his Sharingan, but he would never have won if he hadn't had the right nature to counter Deidara's bombs or the ability to fly. Regardless, the point is that said benefits of the Sharingan can be circumvented, apart from Susanoo which I acknowledged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    As for your suggestion that the loss of Kurama would increase 'tactical smarts' and 'chakra control', it just doesn't add up. How does the loss of Kurama increase his IQ, or his ability to analyse situations? And what is there to suggest that he would have better chakra control; some people just have better control. Are you for real? And even if by some miraculous means these two aspects see increases, it isn't going to make up for the monster that is Kurama. And I don't see how an increase in stamina for Kakashi is going to make up for the tons of techniques he's copied through the use of his Sharingan, the genjutsu, the predictive capabilities, the ability to use Chidori effectively, or Kamui. No way.
    ... Um, had Naruto never had the Kyuubi, he wouldn't have been made an outcast and ostracize by Konoha, meaning he would have learnt like normal. And it was explained that due to the Kyuubi's chakra flowing into his own, chakra control for Naruto was problematic. Sage Mode is plenty for Naruto to be a monster, and actually has more feats then his cloaked form has done. As for Kakashi, there's no actual proof that he copied a bunch of techniques with his Sharingan, especially considering what we have seen of the copying ability. Kakashi has only used genjutsu once, one does not need the Sharingan to have great reflexes, and Chidori would be usable regardless. The only real lost is Kamui, and that has only been recently beneficial due to specifically countering Obito.

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  5. #94
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Take Itachi's un-sealing the Tensai holds via reading Kabuto's seals. Albeit it was done through Izanami, the seal was still broken with hand-seals.

    Yeah, what's up with that? It's kind of annoying.
    Edo Tensei is a ninjutsu, not a fuuinjutsu. But I think I see where the misunderstanding was. I'm not talking about handseals, I'm talking about fuuinjutsu like the one Danzou used to immobilize Sasuke, to kill Root if they talked about him, or possibly that Hakke Fuuin used to seal Kyuubi in Naruto.

  6. #95
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    How is it hilarious, those are some of the strongest of their arcs. It doesn't matter that he lost, when it was made clear that he did better then the majority would have been capable of. And Haku was top tier, above Zabuza by his own admission. Also, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Naruto won because Haku wasn't fighting to kill, and Naruto got boosted by the Kyuubi's chakra. Lastly, Lee has did better against Madara then Naruto did with the same boost. winning is not the sole matter in determining top tier. By your logic, Kakashi, Kisame, and the Sannins wouldn't be top tier because none of them got any actual wins either. Heck, most of Minato's wins have been against nobodies, with the major two ending in ties. So I think my reasoning is perfectly reasonable.
    Yes, he performed better than a group of genins against opponents that he would lose to. That doesn't make him top tier. Haku isn't top tier, suggesting that is ridiculous. Winning isn't the only standard, but the only standard you're using is that he was able to make a successful attack regardless of its effectiveness. Kakashi, Kisame, Minato, and the Sannins have feats, and more feats, to their names, and are widely considered as some of the top shinobi around. No comparison.

    Quote Quote:
    Essential? His Sharingan didn't prevent Orochimaru from taking him over, that was his willpower. And it was established that Sasuke could have ended the battle with Deidara much easier then he did. And I don't think you understand what "essential" means, because against Deidara, his lightning nature and CS were much more critical to his win then his Sharingan. He could have won without drawing it out and using his Sharingan, but he would never have won if he hadn't had the right nature to counter Deidara's bombs or the ability to fly. Regardless, the point is that said benefits of the Sharingan can be circumvented, apart from Susanoo which I acknowledged.
    So the constant references to his eyes meant nothing during the ritual. And how was it established that he could've ended the battle sooner. How would he have avoided the mines if he was unable to see them, or test his theory about the importance of his lightning nature, or avoid C4, or Deidara's suicide attempt. Sasuke's lightning-nature was essential to his win, but so was his Sharingan. And just because some of the benefits and techniques of the Sharingan can be circumvented doesn't change the fact that the Sharingan has been Sasuke's saving grace over and over again.

    Quote Quote:
    ... Um, had Naruto never had the Kyuubi, he wouldn't have been made an outcast and ostracize by Konoha, meaning he would have learnt like normal. And it was explained that due to the Kyuubi's chakra flowing into his own, chakra control for Naruto was problematic. Sage Mode is plenty for Naruto to be a monster, and actually has more feats then his cloaked form has done. As for Kakashi, there's no actual proof that he copied a bunch of techniques with his Sharingan, especially considering what we have seen of the copying ability. Kakashi has only used genjutsu once, one does not need the Sharingan to have great reflexes, and Chidori would be usable regardless. The only real lost is Kamui, and that has only been recently beneficial due to specifically countering Obito.
    You cannot possibly be buying your own argument. Naruto without Kurama wouldn't stand a chance against Naruto with Kurama. Extra childhood training wouldn't make up for the massive chakra, and host of abilities, that come with Kurama. And Naruto would continue to be impressive without Kurama, he has shown more than enough to be considered among the best with his SM. But he wouldn't even be close to the same level he is at now. As for Kakashi, his reputation is as the copy ninja. He doesn't need the Sharingan for great reflexes, but predictive abilities improve your abilities. That's just obvious. Minato told the young Kakashi never to use that jutsu again because he would be unable to see an opponent's counter and as such it was an incomplete jutsu. So yep, he needs his Sharingan for his signature tech. And obviously Kamui is a big deal. Seriously, you have to know that the loss of these abilities or sources of power would greatly weaken characters.

  7. #96
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Edo Tensei is a ninjutsu, not a fuuinjutsu. But I think I see where the misunderstanding was. I'm not talking about handseals, I'm talking about fuuinjutsu like the one Danzou used to immobilize Sasuke, to kill Root if they talked about him, or possibly that Hakke Fuuin used to seal Kyuubi in Naruto.
    Those obviously cannot be copied. No disagreements there.

  8. #97
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I'm not whining about it, I'm stating the facts when I say people make up their own manga facts. I don't see where I did the same here.
    And where did I say one cannot copy a jutsu with Sharingan? I'm talking about seals, which seem to be different from jutsu. The seals we've seen so far, whether Danzou's, Hirashin, or Kakashi's, require something special that Sharingan can't seem to copy.

    To elaborate, sealing jutsu seems to be different from ninjutsu and taijutsu that makes it seem like Sharingan can't replicate it, unless sealing jutsu just needs hand seals. If you want to deny that or counter it, then be my guest, as long as you have manga facts and not your opinions.


    Okay. Does not prove me wrong in any way.

    And no, they don't mistakenly think that the Uchiha are smart. They're correct in thinking the Uchiha who can understand and copy the jutsu are smart, because it requires them to understand the jutsu in the first place. Basically, anyone with Sharingan who can understand how a jutsu works and can even use it is quite smart. Now, if you want to deny that, go ahead, it's just an opinion with no merit anyway.


    That page does not in any way prove your opinion about Sharingan users' intelligence correct, at all. Rather, it only confirms what we know - that Sharingan can copy ninjutsu and taijutsu.



    So Sasuke learned the fireball jutsu because he had Sharingan, BEFORE he unlocked Sharingan? So Obito could use fireball jutsu because he had Sharingan, BEFORE he unlocked Sharingan? Sasuke added variants to chidori because he saw someone else do it with his Sharingan?

    Your point here makes no sense because most of what Sasuke knew and could analyze came way before he had or used Sharingan. Sasuke is smart of his own accord, not because of Sharingan.



    Seals seem to work differently though, as if it's not just about hand seals.

    Ironically, we haven't seen Kakashi use even 10-20% of the jutsu that he's been claimed to know.
    You can go around the argument, it is up to you. WHen I have someone who comes and explained a process in detailed and give me a step by step method to achieve it, there is no point on emphasizing on my smartness. Anyone can do that in my opinion, and the manga prove it.

    When a sample of people with the same feature have the same behavior, you don't attribute this behavior to their individual differences. This is a basic rule in statistics and study of species. In this case, all the people who have sharingan have same analytic performance whether Uchiha or not. Thus it is clear that the cause of this skill is not their brain. Rather it is the common feature - the sharingan.


    Concerning a seal, it is a Ninjutsu. Thus the page I gave still works. Sharingan can understand Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu. Here in understanding, you should see can zoom and give a step by step method for reproducing. I am pretty sure you know the word WIZARD in computer software. Anyone with basic knowlegde of a particular subject can use a given wizard on this subject to install or create something. Here, you can see Sharingan as a Jutsu wizard for every Jutsu he can study. Here is a pratical example:

    1. When Sasuke wanted to use Lee's gate, he locked his sharingan on the movement and copied it. We never saw him training but he was able to use. This happen because his sharingan could give him complete recipe on the movement. As long as his body can handle, he can do it.

    2. While Naruto had to think to find out what Jiraya was doing with the water balloon during Rasengan training, Sasuke could easily have found out by activating the sharingan and visualizing the microscopic movement of the chakra. After that, he could have produce a Rasengan just like Kakashi can do. The only problem would be the power of that Sharingan.

  9. #98
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    ^ We clearly saw Sasuke training in the chapter that involved a flashback with Gaara. You missed a few chapters then.

  10. #99
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    You can go around the argument, it is up to you. WHen I have someone who comes and explained a process in detailed and give me a step by step method to achieve it, there is no point on emphasizing on my smartness. Anyone can do that in my opinion, and the manga prove it.
    I have not gone around the argument, you're just ignoring it so you can claim such thing.

    But if you still don't understand the process, then what? No matter how concise and detailed the process is explained, if you don't have the intelligence then you won't understand it. Naruto did not understand the process of rasengan or wind nature, he had to be explained. Even then, he had some difficulty and had started training rather than have things explained. Naruto did not even know why the third stage was necessary until Jiraiya showed it to him. Someone smart like Sasuke or Orochimaru would have understood the importance of third stage without asking.

    Quote Quote:
    When a sample of people with the same feature have the same behavior, you don't attribute this behavior to their individual differences. This is a basic rule in statistics and study of species. In this case, all the people who have sharingan have same analytic performance whether Uchiha or not. Thus it is clear that the cause of this skill is not their brain. Rather it is the common feature - the sharingan.
    Incorrect, the ones who do have Sharingan are usually the ones who are intelligent or smart and able to analyze stuff. Sharingan would not help them analyze well if they were not smart.

    You can attribute the behavior to their individual differences. Depends on what behavior it is.


    Quote Quote:
    Concerning a seal, it is a Ninjutsu. Thus the page I gave still works. Sharingan can understand Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu. Here in understanding, you should see can zoom and give a step by step method for reproducing. I am pretty sure you know the word WIZARD in computer software. Anyone with basic knowlegde of a particular subject can use a given wizard on this subject to install or create something. Here, you can see Sharingan as a Jutsu wizard for every Jutsu he can study. Here is a pratical example:
    I am not talking about hand seals, I am talking about fuunjutsu, which may not require handseals at all. One with Sharingan can copy Minato's Death God seal because it requires hand seals. However, he may not be able to replicate Minato's hakke fuuin because it probably does not require hand seals.

    Thus, your page does not work, nor do you prove me incorrect. Both Jiraiya and Kakashi wrote characters when they were sealing. Sharingan cannot copy characters, it's up to the users to memorize it.

    Quote Quote:
    1. When Sasuke wanted to use Lee's gate, he locked his sharingan on the movement and copied it. We never saw him training but he was able to use. This happen because his sharingan could give him complete recipe on the movement. As long as his body can handle, he can do it.
    We saw him training to master Lee's movements. I have no idea whether you skipped this part of the manga, selectively ignored it, or forgot it but we saw him train.

    And his body couldn't handle it long-term like Lee's body could.

    Quote Quote:
    2. While Naruto had to think to find out what Jiraya was doing with the water balloon during Rasengan training, Sasuke could easily have found out by activating the sharingan and visualizing the microscopic movement of the chakra. After that, he could have produce a Rasengan just like Kakashi can do. The only problem would be the power of that Sharingan.
    And he couldn't figure it out until he saw the kitty. Once again, if it was someone smart like Itachi or Minato, they'd immediately know what Jiraiya was doing. Sharingan would not have been required, intelligence would be enough.

    Yet so far, Sasuke has used neither rasengan nor kage bunshin.

  11. #100
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Yes, he performed better than a group of genins against opponents that he would lose to. That doesn't make him top tier. Haku isn't top tier, suggesting that is ridiculous. Winning isn't the only standard, but the only standard you're using is that he was able to make a successful attack regardless of its effectiveness. Kakashi, Kisame, Minato, and the Sannins have feats, and more feats, to their names, and are widely considered as some of the top shinobi around. No comparison.
    The Sound Four were implied to be around the level of Jounins, and Kimimaro was stronger then them collectively, Orochimaru's prized pupil. Haku is fully recognized as a strong character, even before he was revived by Kabuto alongside the other powerful zombies, being above a guy on par with Kakashi. No, the standard I'm using is the same as the series, that they're capable of fighting other top tier opponents. Winning doesn't matter. And Lee has plenty of feats too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    So the constant references to his eyes meant nothing during the ritual. And how was it established that he could've ended the battle sooner. How would he have avoided the mines if he was unable to see them, or test his theory about the importance of his lightning nature, or avoid C4, or Deidara's suicide attempt. Sasuke's lightning-nature was essential to his win, but so was his Sharingan. And just because some of the benefits and techniques of the Sharingan can be circumvented doesn't change the fact that the Sharingan has been Sasuke's saving grace over and over again.
    Said references had nothing to do with the end effect. And Sasuke mentioned he could have ended things sooner had his theory about the mines not worked out. Most likely, he would have just dropped Kirin, which would have ended things instantly. No, it wasn't "essential", which implies that there was no possibility without it. Deidara could have been beaten without the Sharingan, he couldn't have been beaten without a lightning nature. Aside from Susanoo, which has been acknowledged as a saving grace, the Sharingan has not been. In fact, it's been the opposite, with Sasuke's opponents having counters or abilities to negate the Sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You cannot possibly be buying your own argument. Naruto without Kurama wouldn't stand a chance against Naruto with Kurama. Extra childhood training wouldn't make up for the massive chakra, and host of abilities, that come with Kurama. And Naruto would continue to be impressive without Kurama, he has shown more than enough to be considered among the best with his SM. But he wouldn't even be close to the same level he is at now. As for Kakashi, his reputation is as the copy ninja. He doesn't need the Sharingan for great reflexes, but predictive abilities improve your abilities. That's just obvious. Minato told the young Kakashi never to use that jutsu again because he would be unable to see an opponent's counter and as such it was an incomplete jutsu. So yep, he needs his Sharingan for his signature tech. And obviously Kamui is a big deal. Seriously, you have to know that the loss of these abilities or sources of power would greatly weaken characters.
    Right, because current Naruto has been sooo hax that no one could stand against him. Well, except every opponent he has fought during the war... Sage Mode has preformed better in battle then cloak form has on an individual bases. And again, as shown by numerous characters, one doesn't need the Sharingan to have good reflexes (or to equal a Sharingan user). Now he may not have as great reflexes, but they'll be good enough. Minato's advice was only for charging straight ahead. But given that the Chidori can be used in other ways then just charging straight forward, as shown several times by both Sasuke and Kakashi, that one flaw doesn't make it unusable. Really, a big deal? Name one character apart from Obito that Kamui is the sole answer for. Kamui wasn't even viable as an usable trick til recently.

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    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The Sound Four were implied to be around the level of Jounins, and Kimimaro was stronger then them collectively, Orochimaru's prized pupil. Haku is fully recognized as a strong character, even before he was revived by Kabuto alongside the other powerful zombies, being above a guy on par with Kakashi. No, the standard I'm using is the same as the series, that they're capable of fighting other top tier opponents. Winning doesn't matter. And Lee has plenty of feats too.
    Winning does matter, as does holding your own. Lee has yet to win, or even hold his own, against a serious top tier opponent. That's reality. These side arguments are distractions.

    Quote Quote:
    Said references had nothing to do with the end effect. And Sasuke mentioned he could have ended things sooner had his theory about the mines not worked out. Most likely, he would have just dropped Kirin, which would have ended things instantly. No, it wasn't "essential", which implies that there was no possibility without it. Deidara could have been beaten without the Sharingan, he couldn't have been beaten without a lightning nature. Aside from Susanoo, which has been acknowledged as a saving grace, the Sharingan has not been. In fact, it's been the opposite, with Sasuke's opponents having counters or abilities to negate the Sharingan.
    Do you realise how ridiculous this argument is? Kirin? The attack that takes ages to setup. How exactly was Sasuke going to stay alive without his Sharingan for long enough to focus on setting up Kirin? The Sharingan was essential for avoiding the mines, for avoiding the C4, and for the realisation that he would require lightning-based attacks. Facts. Not some fantasy that Sasuke would've survived Deidara's attacks and countered using some yet unknown method. And how exactly has the Sharingan been the opposite of a saving grace. Do you understand the meaning of the term? What you're suggesting is the Sharingan has not only been useless, it has been a negative for his battles. How about we go through this? Haku; Sharingan popped up to keep him alive that much longer. Yoroi; uses a combo copied using his Sharingan from Lee. Chidori; incomplete without Sharingan. Naruto; Sharingan evolves to raise his level and allow him to compete against Naruto before the eventual release of his CS2. Deidara; ability to see attacks and manipulate Manda into saving his life. Itachi; would never have even escaped the initial genjutsu without Sharingan. B; Amaterasu required after getting his ass handed to him. A; spams Amaterasu, Susanoo necessary to stay alive. Danzo, MS to the rescue. Kabuto; Enton, Susanoo and dear brother necessary. And question, who among these had the ability to negate the complete range of abilities of the Sharingan?

    Quote Quote:
    Right, because current Naruto has been sooo hax that no one could stand against him. Well, except every opponent he has fought during the war... Sage Mode has preformed better in battle then cloak form has on an individual bases. And again, as shown by numerous characters, one doesn't need the Sharingan to have good reflexes (or to equal a Sharingan user). Now he may not have as great reflexes, but they'll be good enough. Minato's advice was only for charging straight ahead. But given that the Chidori can be used in other ways then just charging straight forward, as shown several times by both Sasuke and Kakashi, that one flaw doesn't make it unusable. Really, a big deal? Name one character apart from Obito that Kamui is the sole answer for. Kamui wasn't even viable as an usable trick til recently.
    How would SM Naruto have fared during the war? He'd probably be dead. He probably wouldn't even have gotten A's approval to go ahead. SM is powerful, but it doesn't have the raw power of his cloaked forms.

    What is this about reflexes? Good reflexes, awesome. Good reflexes and the ability to predict an opponent's movements, a whole lot better. As for Chidori, Minato's comment wasn't to never use the attack straight-on, it was to never use the jutsu again, period. It would be reckless, and leave the user open to counters that they'd be unable to see. That's just the way it is. It would be exceedingly dangerous to utilise the technique. And seriously, Kamui isn't a big deal? Taking out Deidara's arm, saving the group from Deidara's explosion, saving himself and Chouji from Deva, against Sasuke, and obviously super big deal against Obito. Kakashi doesn't spam the technique as Obito does because he lacks the ability to do so. Even so, it has been an important component of his repertoire, and is one of the reasons he has been able to compete, and survive, against top tier opponents.

  13. #102
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Winning does matter, as does holding your own. Lee has yet to win, or even hold his own, against a serious top tier opponent. That's reality. These side arguments are distractions.
    If winning does matter, then we're right back at my previous point. Haku, Kimimaro, and Gaara were all shown not only to be the strongest in their respective arcs, but said strength was reiterated via the current arc. That's reality, and I don't see how you're disregarding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Do you realise how ridiculous this argument is? Kirin? The attack that takes ages to setup. How exactly was Sasuke going to stay alive without his Sharingan for long enough to focus on setting up Kirin? The Sharingan was essential for avoiding the mines, for avoiding the C4, and for the realisation that he would require lightning-based attacks. Facts. Not some fantasy that Sasuke would've survived Deidara's attacks and countered using some yet unknown method. And how exactly has the Sharingan been the opposite of a saving grace. Do you understand the meaning of the term? What you're suggesting is the Sharingan has not only been useless, it has been a negative for his battles. How about we go through this? Haku; Sharingan popped up to keep him alive that much longer. Yoroi; uses a combo copied using his Sharingan from Lee. Chidori; incomplete without Sharingan. Naruto; Sharingan evolves to raise his level and allow him to compete against Naruto before the eventual release of his CS2. Deidara; ability to see attacks and manipulate Manda into saving his life. Itachi; would never have even escaped the initial genjutsu without Sharingan. B; Amaterasu required after getting his ass handed to him. A; spams Amaterasu, Susanoo necessary to stay alive. Danzo, MS to the rescue. Kabuto; Enton, Susanoo and dear brother necessary. And question, who among these had the ability to negate the complete range of abilities of the Sharingan?
    Kirin takes only a few minutes to set up, and that's not taking into account the implication that it can be used without any preparation. The mines are stationary, so why would there be any issue with avoiding them and Deidara would never get to the point if using C4. You seem to be missing the point. His second option was specifically for if Deidara's techniques weren't weak to Lightning, meaning Sasuke wouldn't have needed to know said weakness.

    And it's the opposite because as said, Sasuke's major opponents have all had counters to it's abilities, so the advantages were canceled. As for your examples... The Sharingan didn't keep him alive longer against Haku because Haku wasn't seriously attempting to kill him, combo would have been learnable even without the Sharingan as proven by Naruto, Chidori is only incomplete while running in a straight line over a distances which isn't the only way to use it, Sasuke was already capable of handling Naruto san Sharingan and his CS was actually what turnt the tide, already pointed out the Deidara issue, considering Itachi's entire fight was staged that makes no sense that he wouldn't have won, and Amaterasu wasn't the only answer to the Hachibi. He didn't spam Amaterasu against Ee for the record, and I've already acknowledged several times that Susanoo was indeed necessary and thus an exception to my claim. But as been established, he wouldn't need to always win against everyone to be considered top tier. Are you serious? Haku (speed), Naruto (speed, cloak), Deidara (eye trick), Itachi (speed, Sharingan), Kirabi (speed, cloak, partner), Ee (speed), Danzo (Sharingan, Izanagi), and Kabuto (speed, eye trick, sage senses) all displayed counters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    How would SM Naruto have fared during the war? He'd probably be dead. He probably wouldn't even have gotten A's approval to go ahead. SM is powerful, but it doesn't have the raw power of his cloaked forms.

    What is this about reflexes? Good reflexes, awesome. Good reflexes and the ability to predict an opponent's movements, a whole lot better. As for Chidori, Minato's comment wasn't to never use the attack straight-on, it was to never use the jutsu again, period. It would be reckless, and leave the user open to counters that they'd be unable to see. That's just the way it is. It would be exceedingly dangerous to utilise the technique. And seriously, Kamui isn't a big deal? Taking out Deidara's arm, saving the group from Deidara's explosion, saving himself and Chouji from Deva, against Sasuke, and obviously super big deal against Obito. Kakashi doesn't spam the technique as Obito does because he lacks the ability to do so. Even so, it has been an important component of his repertoire, and is one of the reasons he has been able to compete, and survive, against top tier opponents.
    Probably be dead? Um, considering he took out the Sandaime Raikage when he cloaked form couldn't, helped against Madara, and then the Bijuus, I once again fail to see how you came to said conclusion. It may not have the raw power of the cloaked form, but that's moot seeing as raw power has not been what's saved the day.

    And good reflexes are plenty for the likes of Ee and Minato, so that's minor. Minato's explanation was entirely about him moving too fast in a straight line as not to see a counter-attack. That's not an issue if it's simply used as a knife or the various other forms displayed by Sasuke. No, Kamui's not that big of a deal. There were other options to deal with everything and save him from but Sasuke's arrows and Obito. Not sure how you can claim it was an important component to his repertoire when he has barely used it before the situation with Obito.

  14. #103
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    If winning does matter, then we're right back at my previous point. Haku, Kimimaro, and Gaara were all shown not only to be the strongest in their respective arcs, but said strength was reiterated via the current arc. That's reality, and I don't see how you're disregarding it.
    You seem to be disregarding the obvious. Lee isn't top tier. Guy is top tier, and Lee isn't even close to Guy's level.

    Quote Quote:
    Kirin takes only a few minutes to set up, and that's not taking into account the implication that it can be used without any preparation. The mines are stationary, so why would there be any issue with avoiding them and Deidara would never get to the point if using C4. You seem to be missing the point. His second option was specifically for if Deidara's techniques weren't weak to Lightning, meaning Sasuke wouldn't have needed to know said weakness.

    And it's the opposite because as said, Sasuke's major opponents have all had counters to it's abilities, so the advantages were canceled. As for your examples... The Sharingan didn't keep him alive longer against Haku because Haku wasn't seriously attempting to kill him, combo would have been learnable even without the Sharingan as proven by Naruto, Chidori is only incomplete while running in a straight line over a distances which isn't the only way to use it, Sasuke was already capable of handling Naruto san Sharingan and his CS was actually what turnt the tide, already pointed out the Deidara issue, considering Itachi's entire fight was staged that makes no sense that he wouldn't have won, and Amaterasu wasn't the only answer to the Hachibi. He didn't spam Amaterasu against Ee for the record, and I've already acknowledged several times that Susanoo was indeed necessary and thus an exception to my claim. But as been established, he wouldn't need to always win against everyone to be considered top tier. Are you serious? Haku (speed), Naruto (speed, cloak), Deidara (eye trick), Itachi (speed, Sharingan), Kirabi (speed, cloak, partner), Ee (speed), Danzo (Sharingan, Izanagi), and Kabuto (speed, eye trick, sage senses) all displayed counters.
    This argument is beginning to drag on me. Sharingan offers advantages, and some individuals have counters to some of its abilities. But to date, zero combatants have countered the entirety of the Sharingan's abilities. Your list is just meaningless. You've attempted to show one or two abilities that each of Sasuke's opponents have overcome, but blatantly ignore the obvious fact that the Sharingan is multi-faceted. If someone has a counter to a single ability, it doesn't negate the advantages of the many other. Your references to speed are meaningless. Speed isn't a counter to the Sharingan, the predictive ability continues. It was Sasuke's Sharingan that allowed him to survive against A, despite his speed. Deidara was able to handle the genjutsu of the Sharingan, but he wasn't able to stop Sasuke from seeing his bombs. Sasuke would've been unable to break free of Itachi's genjutsu if it weren't for his Sharingan, it wasn't the other way around. B's movements were too much for the Sharingan, and he was able to overcome its genjutsu, but Sasuke survived because of Amaterasu. A's speed prevented use of two MS abilities, but wasn't useful against Susanoo. Danzo was unable to see through Sasuke's genjutsu. Kabuto was probably the only person that showed counters to each of Sasuke's Sharingan abilities, with the exception of Amaterasu, but it was Itachi's Sharingan ability that ended the battle. He required the Sharingan to survive each of those battles.


    Quote Quote:
    Probably be dead? Um, considering he took out the Sandaime Raikage when he cloaked form couldn't, helped against Madara, and then the Bijuus, I once again fail to see how you came to said conclusion. It may not have the raw power of the cloaked form, but that's moot seeing as raw power has not been what's saved the day.

    And good reflexes are plenty for the likes of Ee and Minato, so that's minor. Minato's explanation was entirely about him moving too fast in a straight line as not to see a counter-attack. That's not an issue if it's simply used as a knife or the various other forms displayed by Sasuke. No, Kamui's not that big of a deal. There were other options to deal with everything and save him from but Sasuke's arrows and Obito. Not sure how you can claim it was an important component to his repertoire when he has barely used it before the situation with Obito.
    If you honestly believe that Naruto would've been able to accomplish what he has since the inception of the war utilising SM, so be it. If you believe he would be able to accomplish the same feats, so be it. I completely disagree.

    Your comments on reflexes just fail to make any sense. If someone has good reflexes and fights against another combatant having the same reflexes, but also an eye capable of predicting movements, how is the battle going to turn out? As I said, good reflexes are great, good reflexes and the ability to predict movements are better. Why is it necessary to argue over the utterly obvious? As for Chidori, seriously. How was Kakashi going to survive against Deva, or save Chouji, without Kamui? Deidara's explosion? And once again, if you honestly believs Kakashi would be equal to what he is with his Sharingan without his Sharingan, keep on. I, however, disagre.

  15. #104
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    about something i read earlier i was talking about all supernatural birth gifts in general

    and imo on what you say
    kakashi, sharigan or not, he would be a very refinded ninjutsu taijutsu user and he would be strong like, let says gai (not physically, but overally)
    cant say same for sasuke
    after he got MS he abuses it to no end
    only thing that you see is amaterasu and susano, hardly anything more like raiton or little taijutsu

    about the "you need intelligence to use sharingan"
    well, in my opinion intelligence is having a clear judgement in a short ammount of time
    ...so if the sharingan makes everything slow motion for you whats the point?

  16. #105
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Is Naruto becoming too focused on bloodline abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You seem to be disregarding the obvious. Lee isn't top tier. Guy is top tier, and Lee isn't even close to Guy's level.
    And exactly how so did you come to that conclusion? The only thing I can think of is by going by their databooks stats, which still have Lee only behind by 1 point in the key stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    This argument is beginning to drag on me. Sharingan offers advantages, and some individuals have counters to some of its abilities. But to date, zero combatants have countered the entirety of the Sharingan's abilities. Your list is just meaningless. You've attempted to show one or two abilities that each of Sasuke's opponents have overcome, but blatantly ignore the obvious fact that the Sharingan is multi-faceted. If someone has a counter to a single ability, it doesn't negate the advantages of the many other. Your references to speed are meaningless. Speed isn't a counter to the Sharingan, the predictive ability continues. It was Sasuke's Sharingan that allowed him to survive against A, despite his speed. Deidara was able to handle the genjutsu of the Sharingan, but he wasn't able to stop Sasuke from seeing his bombs. Sasuke would've been unable to break free of Itachi's genjutsu if it weren't for his Sharingan, it wasn't the other way around. B's movements were too much for the Sharingan, and he was able to overcome its genjutsu, but Sasuke survived because of Amaterasu. A's speed prevented use of two MS abilities, but wasn't useful against Susanoo. Danzo was unable to see through Sasuke's genjutsu. Kabuto was probably the only person that showed counters to each of Sasuke's Sharingan abilities, with the exception of Amaterasu, but it was Itachi's Sharingan ability that ended the battle. He required the Sharingan to survive each of those battles.
    Zero combatants have countered the entire thing because ALL of the Sharingan's abilities aren’t used. The only ability used frequently is the prediction ability. Genjutsu is only occasionally employed while the copying ability has only been used once. Therefore, my list is perfectly fine. Speed is the counter to the Sharingan. We were outright told that it was the counter to the Sharingan, that without comparable physical speed, the prediction ability was worthless. And as said before, counting situational advantages doesn’t prove anything. Defeating Deidara does not require one seeing his underground mines, because him using them is rare. Neither Gaara nor the Alliance required that advantage. Same with Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. The entire fight was a test to see if Sasuke was ready, Itachi wouldn’t have used something that Sasuke couldn’t have actually countered, i.e. Totsuka Blade. Kirabi’s movements weren’t too much, considering he only landed any blows by catching Sasuke off guard and I’ve acknowledged multiples times that Sasuke’s saving grace was Susanoo, which was the one thing he has actually needed to survive several time. Regardless, the issue here is whether Sasuke would have been capable of fighting at the top tier without it and the series show that so. The series has gone out of its way to show that intelligences and speed are very powerful tools on their own. In addition, we were literally shown that Sasuke was able to content with a top tier opponent (Kirabi) without his Sharingan for some time. Now given that base Kirabi is as fast as his brother and cloaked Naruto, stronger than his brother, and was keen enough to see Minato’s Hiraishin and react, keeping up with him is clearly an impressive feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    If you honestly believe that Naruto would've been able to accomplish what he has since the inception of the war utilising SM, so be it. If you believe he would be able to accomplish the same feats, so be it. I completely disagree.
    Exactly what has Naruto “accomplished” since the inception of the war? The only notable feat has been intercepting the Bijuu Blasts, which was a pretty cool feat. But battle-wise, Naruto has hardly achieved anything solely thanks to his cloaked form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Your comments on reflexes just fail to make any sense. If someone has good reflexes and fights against another combatant having the same reflexes, but also an eye capable of predicting movements, how is the battle going to turn out? As I said, good reflexes are great, good reflexes and the ability to predict movements are better. Why is it necessary to argue over the utterly obvious? As for Chidori, seriously. How was Kakashi going to survive against Deva, or save Chouji, without Kamui? Deidara's explosion? And once again, if you honestly believs Kakashi would be equal to what he is with his Sharingan without his Sharingan, keep on. I, however, disagre.
    Your reasoning is the problem. Aside from the fact that people with the ability to predict movement are very rare in the series, therefore being an exception for worry as oppose to the standard, we have outright seen that what matters most is speed not prediction. It wouldn't matter how great one’s prediction is if the other person is faster. Seriously what? You’re just gonna ignore the whole argument about running straight forward not bei8ng the sole way to use Chidori or its variations? Kakashi did quite well against Deva and Asura together without Kamui, so that moot, and Deidara’s explosion could have been canceled simply by using lightning flow. Again, you’re trying to argue about situational advantages and ignoring that said situations aren’t the standard or key to being top tier.

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