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---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------
When he previously fought Haku where his Sharigan wasn't evolved enough to see everything, he was still getting his ass kicked despite activating it. Later while fighting Naruto, his Sharigan had to evolve when fighting him, but even still he couldn't predict everything once Naruto changed.
A similar thing happened for the most part when Kakashi first fought Itachi as he couldn't read his handseals and didn't even realize he was behind him in once instance.
The Sharigan has limits, even a Sharigan as strong as Sasuke's couldn't see the Raikage so he could strike him with Amaterasu, and also couldn't keep up with Naruto and Bee once they transformed because their tailed beast forms were too fast and unpredictable. This is also why Sasuke was getting his ass kicked by Bee's sword style, it was too unpredictable.
So while extreme speed has as much to do with the body's ability to keep up as the Sharigan's, the unpredictability of movement at high speeds is also a weakness of the Sharigan.
Now, Sussano in an of itself is an ultimate defense. And while speed can't defeat it, it does have many other weaknesses, such as vulnerability at it's base, the duration of the technique, and extreme forces can penetrate it depending on what level it's at.
Last edited by Delbi; March 02, 2013 at 11:01 PM.
Nope, my point was that he wasn't able to compete without Kamui. The only time Kakashi has been particularly useful against the top tier is when he utilises Kamui. But, this argument is whether Kakashi without Sharingan would be on the same level as Kakashi without. You say he would be, I say Kakashi without Sharingan wouldn't be close to Kakashi with Sharingan. So it seems as though on the third of the remaining discussions, we remain on different sides of the argument. And it seems unlikely that that is going to change, and if we continue we're only going to end up down the road of barely relevant discussions that move us farther away from each other. So, on that note.......I'm just going to agree to disagree.Quote:
Still failing to understand how saving Chouji correlates to a better showing then going toe to toe with two Paths. Or how Kakashi taking down several Swordsmen and going up against a Bijuu doesn't show otherwise. But fine, let's agree to disagree.
If you take the sharingan from Kakashi NOW he ends up losing a ton of his power base... Thing is if he did not had a sharingan in the first place he would have trained diferently and i belive he would have got somewhere similar in power as he is now.
While Kishimoto started the series with an aesop of unspecial kids superating gifted ones with hard work, he ended up inverting that all in the second part when Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki are basically demi-gods descended of a crystal dragon jesus.
Honestly, the moment Madara started spamming meteors did anyone think training actually meant something in the face of the most broken bloodline fusion ever?
The problem I see is that Naruto is still tied to the old japanese anecdote of special families arranging marriages to produce gifted children, either your ancestors were awesome or you will just be a peasant.
It should be fighting against nobility of clansmanship and taking the sides of the average folk becoming a legend because of unbreakable beliefs but Kishimoto choose the path of Naruto being the messiah because he is a descendant of the original messiah.
As far as I am concerned, Might Guy, Rock Lee and Orochimaru are the only people in the series who follow the original moral lesson Naruto introduced because everything got down to having an absurd blood limit to make your character relevant.
Besides the aforementioned, all Charles Atlas badasses of the series are dead. We had Minato, Sarutobi and Konan all building their own legacies only to die fighting someone with a broken blood limit.
Minato and Konan died because of Tobi who has MS and Mokuton.
Sarutobi died because Orochimaru summoned a pair of freakin Senju kages one of who was the source of all Mokuton.
Now we have Naruto being a monster because his Uzumaki blood allows him to be a perfect jinchuriki while on the other side we have Sasuke, Madara and Obito who are all freakin Uchihas and the two later being bloodline hybrids.
Whats worse is that at some time in the future Sasuke is bound to gain a Rinnegan wheter we like it or not because he needs to match Naruto's grow.
The moment Kishimoto mentioned Karin being an Uzumaki I just realized he was going to do something between her and Sasuke so that he awakes the Rinnegan without getting a Hashirama face somewhere on his body.
I guess this is one of the reasons people liked more part one, the fight were still fair and determination really mattered.
Today if you don't have a Senju/Uzumaki or an Uchiha hidden in your surname, you will just end up doomed to the sidelines.
Again, Minato's death is all because of kushina, konoha and naruto. Obito's MS and mokuton has nothing to do with that.
1-He is a very popular caracter.
2-This is a manga.
3-Kishi needs to make him relevant.
That is all you need to take into account. Yes i do belive that if he did not had his sharingan he would end up with something ELSE to make him relevant. Look at Gai and his gates. I am damn sure Kishi would have gave him something else.
Saying that, Kakashi is a genius no doubt, but genius alone rarely gives you the ability to become top tier. In fact, there is only one known genius who didn't have a Kekkai Genkai or who didn't resort to Forbidden jutsu as his mainstay who became legendary and very powerful. It was Minato. And even he cheated since he already had great genes that gave him unimaginable reflexes.
Literally everyone else in the manga has some kind of power-up if they are top tier. The Raikage's may be an exception, but their massive physique and biju like chakra are essentially the same thing.
Kakashi is extremely talented and smart. But he lacks an elite chakra pool, lacks a kekkai genkai, doesn't seem interested in body modification like Orochimaru or Kakazu, and doesn't use forbidden jutsu.
IMO, without the Sharigan, the only way Kakashi would be able to reach a high level would be by learning Hirashin. Yet, if he was capable of doing so, I'd think he would have by now.
Excuse me, but Minato is praised throughout the world as the fastest runner-away ninja to ever live so... yeah. His entire fighting style boasts of "flight as opposed to fight". Which I guess is the best strategy for a character of his power level.Originally Posted by marshall313
Quite honestly, of the 3 fights we saw Minato in, he literally walked away from all but one. And even in the one he didn't run away from, he only continued the fight because he was fighting an opponent who could follow him no matter where he went. If Obito couldn't teleport Minato would've never dealt with him. He would've just grabbed Kushina and fled.
I am still flabbergasted that we will never see Kakashi's thousand copied Jutsus. There was no point in even using this as some kind of Prowess highlighter, when this man (Kishimoto) never intended to showcase them, given the impossibility.
Last edited by shahdan; March 04, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
I don't think so at all. Bloodline abilities have been fairly prominent since they were introduced, but I don't think they take away from the individuals effort.
As much as Sasuke or Madara could be accused of spamming EMS too often, they've both been shown to have trained rigorously and towards a single goal in order to attain those abilities. You don't just start with an awakened eye. You've got to wake it up. And as a tool itself, it's effectiveness depends on the wielder. Both have shown in their own right to be gifted at battle strategy (Sasuke vs Danzo/Kage/Itachi/etc., Madara vs Hashirama/Kage).
Nagato had the Rinnegan which was an effective tool and a definite bonus over other ninja, but when it initially awoke, it allowed him to kill (presumably) two fodder Konoha nin. Aftwards he forged those eyes by surviving wars, training with Jiraiya, spending his adolescence with Yahiko's Akatsuki, and finally corralling the infamous shinobi elite into his new Akatsuki.
Likewise, you could make a case for Naruto's growth being valid as his training has both most effectively utilized what natural gifts he may have had (and here bloodline would be an inappropriate classification) and put in the time and effort since being the lowest ranked student in class in order to become someone worthy of recognition. It just so happens that the route he took (through Shadow Clones) allows him to greatly expedite that process. Is this unfair? Your mileage may vary, but I'm okay with it since he's constantly pushing himself to his limits in order to find ways to exceed them.
So when things are posted like:
It seems to me a bit of a mischaracterization. Bloodline limits aren't the sum total of these characters. The Byakugan users also demonstrate strong taijutsu. The sharingan users have also trained in regular jutsu, the only difference being chakra capacity/manipulation but that varies by individual.Quote:
But above all, it'd be more accurate to state the majority of the main characters are have a unique edge with the qualification that the characters we've followed have grown into the elite among a massive army of soldiers who for the most part are only adequately skilled. Could a series be made that focuses on one of these average nin whose skilled in kunai and moderately skilled in taijutsu. Maybe, but it would be a much different (and in my opinion slightly less) interesting story, and one that would strain suspension of disbelief even more if we were expected to follow such a regular nin facing off against the collective likes of Akatsuki, Orochimaru, Gaara, Zabuza, Kabuto, and Obito through determination alone.
Eventually, the regular nin would need to power up. Naruto went that route but I think a lot of times when I see these discussions (and they pop up often), it's more a case of legitimizing one's favorite characters over anothers.
Which is not to say that there aren't valid points that could be made about the consistency with which Kishimoto scales progress and powerups. There definitely are. But bloodline limits don't necessarily make for superior ninja. They can be sharpened into superior weapons and they can also be strategically useful for there rareness and the lack of information an enemy may have on such an ability, but the story has been littered with faceless Uchiha and Hyuuga who died as easily as the rest. And there are plenty of side characters like Suigetsu, Juugo, and Yamato who utilize their abilities well but who are not in the top tier of shinobi simply for possessing them.
on sasuke being genius and sharigan helping only on "small speed gap"
1- the whole point of being intelligent, is thinking fast and sharigan slows everything for you. The whoke point of being insightfull is the speed. uchicha hit with accuracy and nice judgement and they are known for that. The reason they are thought to be intelligent is the thinking speed.
Take it in real life, u go boxing, and you see things in the last second before hitting you (or maybe not even then)....so if the opponent, was going half speed, wouldnt you immediately block it wisely? same here
2- its an eye after all, it supposed to see and it already calculates aura, virtually predicts few seconds, cast genjutsu, help with chakra control, cast forbidden abilities
if it is was to selfrespond to taijutsu as well, the user would go afk mode and let his eye do everything
whatever anyone says about Sharingan, it does not change the fact that Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, and Madara are geniuses WITHOUT their Sharingan. the manga establishes that, we see it, and MANGA establishes the fact.
It's not the thinking speed or whatever excuse that make people think the Uchiha are intelligent, the fact is that they're shown to be smart. Look at how Itachi was said to have the wisdom of a kage when he was like, 5. Look at how Sasuke got the top grades in his class almost every year. The Sharingan isn't the Kyuubi, it won't make anyone smarter or supply them easy info.
how does Sharingan help with chakra control? If it did, then Sasuke would have been able to climb the tree without a hitch, although he wasn't aware he already unlocked his Sharingan. And anyone can cast forbidden jutsu or have forbidden abilities. Look at Naruto and kage bunshin.
The user would get owned against a fast opponent like Sasuke did against Lee, or like how Sasuke had trouble against Bee and Raikage. unlike the Kyuubi, Hiraishin, or whatever else, it's not a get out of jail free card, it still relies on one's own abilities.
And one more thing, minato didn't run away from his opponent like obito did. He walked away from raikage and bee simply because he wasn't there to fight them. And the fact that he's just showing off his caliber as a ninja that he never fail at all.
Of course, minato would just grabbed kushina and baby naruto to protect them from obito. But it doesn't mean minato wouldn't kikc obito's ass. Fighting someone while protecting your wife and new born son is a very disadvantage scenario to minato. In fact, that would be a logical choice.
And no. Minato isn't a killer maniac. But if obito would attack the konoha, then he'll going to deal with obito as a hokage. Yepz. Minato isn't a coward. He fight to someone who's a threat to konoha and to his family and walk away to someone or to a useless fight. That's his character. A very powerful ninja and yet a humble one and the one who value the life of others.