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Thread: kaito

  1. #16
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    When Kuroro was captured, Nobunaga told the other Spiders to not pursue Kurapika because Kurapika has another 'pro Hunter level' friend. There were 5 Spiders at that time.

    And even though Pro Hunter originally is a rather lofty standard, there's no way Kite is below the average "Pro Hunter" even in this regard.

    Again a Pro Hunter is someone that if you got 2 of them (Kurapika + one other) it's enough to make 5 Spiders back off. The original "Pro Hunter" level is easily more than a match for the average Spider. That's why Hunters hunt the Spiders, not the other way around, even though Hunters clearly operate in much smaller numbers as a group compared to Spiders.
    I say it's just a plot hole.

    Quote Quote:
    Finally Ubogin is not stupid. He assumes Kurapika is an equal level user and he's either Manipulation or Materialization due to chains. Let's look at a Materializatino user from Spiders: Shizuku. She lost to Gon in arm wrestling even though she used aura while Gon did not (the scene shows one of the two using it, and since Gon has no idea how strong his opponent was there's no reason he'd start out using aura on a seemingly fragile girl). We also see that later Nobunaga easily beat Gon in strength under normal circumstances he's not even at the halfway mark in physical strength amongst Spiders. Likewise Shalunark, a Manipulation user, is ranked roughly the same in physical strength as Shizuku. This means Ubogin is unfathomably stronger than an equal tier Manipulation or Materialization user and this is supoprted by his own friends. Even 20% of his maximum output should've been enough to break the arm of a Manipulation or Materialization user and then you don't have to worry about what trick they got on their sleeves. Kurapika talks about his superior strategy but what ultimately worked was his Emperor Time allowed him to tank hits from Ubogin as if he's Reinforcement. This made Ubogin switch from his anti-Manipulation/anti-Materialization user strategy because his experience says only Reinforcement users can tank his hits.

    Another way to think about it this. Suppose Gon at GI is same level as Hisoka (he's not, but this only makes it more favorable for the comparison), we know Gon's strength is roughly equal to Razor's strength with aura beasts out. Therefore, Razor's attack are at least equivalent of a Reinforcement user equal to Hisoka's level, though in reality the difference between a Reinforcement of Hisoka's level to Hisoka should be even greater (because Gon really isn't the same level as Hisoka to begin with). Well we see that Hisoka absolutely cannot tank Razor's reinforcement attacks (throwing the ball is pure reinforcement). He always used a special ability to lessen the impact, and even Razor's small aura beasts is strong enough to break his fingers with the impact of their strength alone. Likewise Kastro, a Reinforcement user, has no problem ripping Hisoka's arm off, and no I don't think Hisoka purposely lowered his defenses to lose his arm just for fun. It's pretty clear Kastro does have the strength to do this rather easily (though Hisoka certainly could do a better job dodging).

    It's pretty well established that you don't tank an equal level Reinforcement's direct attacks unless you're also Reinforcement, because if you tried to tank it you'd be lucky if you only lose a limb. That's also why Reinforcement are powerful and dominate the 2-away schools. You don't have to know what crazy ability the other guy has if you first hit snaps his right arm and your second hit snaps his left arm. That was Ubogin's strategy until he was forced to abandon it due to Emperor Time clouding his judgment, and there's no way he can anticipate an enemy having an ability like Emperor Time. It's pretty much the most hax ability from a human character we know of, and it's competitve against even most of the Ants power in terms of how powerful it is.
    Emperor Time is ridiculously hax yes, but why on earth would you fight someone at 20% when you could fight them at 100%? Makes a grand total of zero sense.

  2. #17
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member zzigg's Avatar
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    Maybe not,the transformation gives you a new Hatsu which fits you perfectly(for example Palm's new ability).Kaito said he didn't like his ability but I found it pretty useful and IMO it's the best conjurer ability that we have seen.
    but the transformation wont give you a new ability it's just an improved version of your ability
    maybe the clown will have more than 9 numbers or something

  3. #18
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post


    Emperor Time is ridiculously hax yes, but why on earth would you fight someone at 20% when you could fight them at 100%? Makes a grand total of zero sense.
    Punch something at 100% of your power. After that punch you're not going to be able to immediately adjust your position because you're using your maximum output. If you punch with 20% of your power, you can easily adjust after the attack.

    Now of course there's no point in being flexible if you won't do enough damage, but Ubogin's experience must be that 20% of his power can easily break the arm of any equal level Manipulation/Materialization user. Just imagine Shizuku or Shalunark was his opponent. Shizuku lost to Gon in arm wrestling while using aura. Sure she used the wrong hand but using aura versus not is also a huge equalizer. Ubogin is obviously specialized in physical strength even for a Reinforcement user (even Gon is more balanced in terms of variety of abilities) so there's no reason to doubt his judgment that 20% ought to be enough for an equal level Materialization/Manipulation user.

    When you attack someone who is likely to have any 'tricky' ability your strategy as Reinforcement is use the lowest amount of power possible that's enough to take out an arm, because you know that guy probably has some tricky ability he'll attempt to use to counter so you don't want to overcommit yourself. It's also possible the other guy just ends up sacrificing an arm to activate his ability. While this doesn't mean you shouldn't go for the arm whenever the opportunity presents itself, there's no need for overkill because as long as you take the arm and avoid their counterattack the fight is almost certainly over. And there's no reason why this strategy would ever not work unless your enemy has a total hax ability like Emperor Time. From the point of view a Reinforcement user, if they can tank your hits then that pretty much rules out Materialization/Manipoulation/Specialization, as all 3 schools absolutely do not fight by tanking stuff.

  4. #19
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by souhail View Post
    but the transformation wont give you a new ability it's just an improved version of your ability
    maybe the clown will have more than 9 numbers or something
    Maybe he/she can actually choose the number for his situation...

  5. #20
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by souhail View Post
    but the transformation wont give you a new ability it's just an improved version of your ability
    maybe the clown will have more than 9 numbers or something
    I half agree .Wink Blue is an evolution of her first ability but Black Widow is a new enhancer's ability.Palm was not even a fighter and now she is maybe stronger than Killua.
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  6. #21
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    I half agree .Wink Blue is an evolution of her first ability but Black Widow is a new enhancer's ability.Palm was not even a fighter and now she is maybe stronger than Killua.
    i forgot about that....but we actually don't know if she had it before transformation or not...

  7. #22
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Punch something at 100% of your power. After that punch you're not going to be able to immediately adjust your position because you're using your maximum output. If you punch with 20% of your power, you can easily adjust after the attack.

    When you attack someone who is likely to have any 'tricky' ability your strategy as Reinforcement is use the lowest amount of power possible that's enough to take out an arm, because you know that guy probably has some tricky ability he'll attempt to use to counter so you don't want to overcommit yourself. It's also possible the other guy just ends up sacrificing an arm to activate his ability. While this doesn't mean you shouldn't go for the arm whenever the opportunity presents itself, there's no need for overkill because as long as you take the arm and avoid their counterattack the fight is almost certainly over. And there's no reason why this strategy would ever not work unless your enemy has a total hax ability like Emperor Time. From the point of view a Reinforcement user, if they can tank your hits then that pretty much rules out Materialization/Manipoulation/Specialization, as all 3 schools absolutely do not fight by tanking stuff.
    I completely agree with this - you don't want to expose yourself by pouring 100% into your punch. Problem is that Uvo's 20% is 20% of his total aura output, rather than a case of him allocating 20% to his punch. I say this because Uvo goes 100% at a distance from Kurapica and Kurapica remarks that Uvo is emanating "an incredible amount of aura." Unless he's already shifting all his aura into his fist at a distance, (he isn't, his whole body is pulsing with aura and with no particular emphasis on his fist) it's clear that this implies that Uvo was artificially using a fraction of his aura. Why? For fun? Despite the plot holes, inconsistencies and such throughout HxH which makes the logical interpretation the wrong interpretation, I think this was what Togashi really wanted to express. It was a means for him to "up the stakes". I suppose it was effective from a narrative/writing standpoint but in the end no matter how you twist it it's hard to justify. Considering how little of Uvo we've seen the only conclusion to make is that "he's incredibly careless", in my opinion.

    Another example of Togashi not making sense is the thing about Kurapica's In cloaked chain already being around Uvo since the blunder he made when he was fighting at 50%. If the chain was already around him, why would Kurapica be surprised about Uvo's whereabouts, In or not?

  8. #23
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    Re: kaito

    I think Uvo used 20% of his aura because Kurapika is a conjurer.Conjurers and manipulators are the weakest physically so their defense is too.For a guy who used all his potential in brute strength I think his reasoning was pretty logical.
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  9. #24
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    I completely agree with this - you don't want to expose yourself by pouring 100% into your punch. Problem is that Uvo's 20% is 20% of his total aura output, rather than a case of him allocating 20% to his punch. I say this because Uvo goes 100% at a distance from Kurapica and Kurapica remarks that Uvo is emanating "an incredible amount of aura." Unless he's already shifting all his aura into his fist at a distance, (he isn't, his whole body is pulsing with aura and with no particular emphasis on his fist) it's clear that this implies that Uvo was artificially using a fraction of his aura. Why? For fun? Despite the plot holes, inconsistencies and such throughout HxH which makes the logical interpretation the wrong interpretation, I think this was what Togashi really wanted to express. It was a means for him to "up the stakes". I suppose it was effective from a narrative/writing standpoint but in the end no matter how you twist it it's hard to justify. Considering how little of Uvo we've seen the only conclusion to make is that "he's incredibly careless", in my opinion.

    Another example of Togashi not making sense is the thing about Kurapica's In cloaked chain already being around Uvo since the blunder he made when he was fighting at 50%. If the chain was already around him, why would Kurapica be surprised about Uvo's whereabouts, In or not?
    I realize the way Ubogin punches more or less the same the entire time but I still think if he does a Big Bang it has a longer recovery time compared to a punch at lesser overall power output. HXH isn't a series where people randomly used reduced % of their total power just to be cool.

    At the 50% mark, Ubogin said Kurapika will regret not chaining him, which implies he wasn't chained. Kurapika's ability is not unlike Hisoka's, in the sense that he can obviously chain someone while attacking directly too and has no reason to hide it unless he's trying to sneak attack. At that point Kurapika wasn't hiding his chains, so Ubogin must mean chaining as a follow-through to his normal attack. But I think Kurapika didn't chain him becuase he knows Ubogin is at 50% so it's possible he gets an extra burst of power to do something unexpected, so Kurapika prefers to wait until he's at 100% to ensure he can't do anything unexpected. Again this is only possible because Kurapika could tank his 50% damage output. If he did not he'd be forced to try to chain Ubogin earlier, and Ubogin possibly could avoid it by increasing his aura since more aura = more speed too.

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    I think Uvo used 20% of his aura because Kurapika is a conjurer.Conjurers and manipulators are the weakest physically so their defense is too.For a guy who used all his potential in brute strength I think his reasoning was pretty logical.
    Well the 20% is enough power to win but the question raised up is why not just use 100% if it looks like his punching animation is pretty much always the same? After all being deader is better than just dead.

    My argument would be that although Ubogin's attacks look identical at 20/50/100%, he must have longer recovery while doing the 100% Big Bang compared to just the 20% test case. In fact, in both cases we basically have fight go in this format:

    Ubogin punches Kurapika
    Kurapika stagger back
    Counterattack with chain

    In the 20%, Ubogin avoided it. In the 100%, Ubogin did not. Kurapika said that it's because he used In and Ubogin was talking, but I think part of it must be because Ubogin cannot immediately recover after using the Big Bang. That is, that punch must use enough power that he's momentarily frozen after the impact just from using up so much aura. If there's no difference in recovery time between 100% and 20%, then he might as well start out at 100% all the time.

    ---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

    Note that in most cases, using 100% would also be problematic in the sense that after you attempt a 100% output attack, you'd be pretty vulnerable to any counterattack. It doesn't matter in Kurapika's case since his chains are basically one hit kill (you go to Zetsu and it's game over if it connects) but against most opponents perhaps it is wise to leave extra aura to defend.

    Also, I guess you can say that if someone's at 100% for an attack then they got no aura left to do things like Gyou, which makes it less likely they'll see through your In. Ubogin at 20%/50% presumably can use Gyou any time and might see through the In that way, but if he's at 100% by definition he has to use all his power in the Big Bang and wouldn't be able to use Gyou immediately even if he wanted to.

    Although the manga does not make it very clear why there are drawbacks to go 100%, I think we can assume it must leave you more vulnerable to any kind of counterattack/surprises so if you know 20% is supposed to knock someone out, you wouldn't use more than 20%, not because you underestimated your opponents but that having an 80% of aura in reserve helps you deal with any surprises, provided you know your 20% is sufficient to win.

  10. #25
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by mousiehamster View Post
    To be fair Feitan was really rusty.

    Also, Zazan was a division leader? Wasn't she the queen?

    In HxH, things like surprise, and conditions matter. Feitan was struggling against that fodder queen .but once he got into battle mode it was obvious there were difference between them in nen abilities, yet that didn't stop him from struggling early on against her. What would you think would have happened if Feitan faught Pitou instead of ugly queen? Rusty Feitan might have died if he didn't get his act together quick enough. Even Netero at first was saying how he thought Pitou might be stronger than him, yet after some honing it became clear he was on a much higher level.

    HxH fights factor in many things, prep, conditions, settings, abilities, etc. Pitou surprised Kaito and took of his arm, what can you do at that point? I don't think many of the Ryodan would have fared better in that spot.I think Feitan, or any of the other Ryodan for that matter, took the Chimera Ants they fought all that serious. Once they did they completely dominated them. That's to say, they get serious when they need to.


    but I have to say that Feitan's pain packer probably wouldn't have done much damage at all to Pitou... Considering the sheer amount of aura she possessed and the incredible speed and jumping ability in her legs she could easily create a ton of distance in very little time, there is a huge difference between Zazan and Pitou.

    I do feel that Feitan would have snapped back into shape quicker had he faced an opponent as strong as Pitou but I just don't see him faring much better than Kaito.
    Last edited by zzigg; March 02, 2013 at 11:35 AM.

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    Re: kaito

    I don't think Feitan was rusty.His vision of fighting really impressed me(he pays attention to details).He is just a guy who relies on his speed.Zazan was not fodder,she trapped him.

    She noticed Feitan was paying attention to details and she put down her to lure him.
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  12. #27
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    Re: kaito

    Even Netero and Zeno said they could've died if Meryem simply attacked while they were distracted by Pitou's ability. In HXH you don't get to complain about stuff like mental duress, rust, lack of sleep, or whatever. If Meryem simply instant killed Zeno and Meryem while they took their eyes off him, that's a perfectly acceptable outcome in HXH because you're never supposed to take your eye off someone as powerful as Meryem.

    At any rate Feitan tried to hit Zanza with Ko, it got tanked and Zanza counterattacked. He's lucky that he didn't just instantly died from the counterattack because that's what usually happens when your Ko gets tanked for no damage. Feitan's ability is pretty dumb anyway because like Gensuru it's your standard 'use double aura to do damage' because he has to protect himself first (otherwise he sets himself on fire too) before he can attack the enemy. I assume Togashi isn't interested in having any consistency fighting a fodder enemy but realistically such abilities gets you owned hard by anyone stronger than you. Whatever aura you use to protect yourself, an equally strong (and even slightly weaker) opponent can simply do the exact same thing since your AP is split on offense/defense (set enemy on fire + protect yourself from fire) while the enemy only has to concentrate on defense.

    I suppose you can argue there's some special fire resistant property or that perhaps Zanza is especially vulnerable to fire but in the case Phinx should just throw a flamethrower and a flame retardant suit to Feitan for help.

    Note that Killua's ability is similar, but because he's naturally resistant to electricity he does not need to allocate any aura to protect himself from his own lightning attacks, so he put 100% of his output on offense which makes it a very potent move. But this won't work in Feitan's case because we sure don't know of any naturally fire-resistant human beings in HXH.
    Last edited by Phantron; March 02, 2013 at 02:51 PM.

  13. #28
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member zzigg's Avatar
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonspeed View Post
    I don't think Feitan was rusty.His vision of fighting really impressed me(he pays attention to details).He is just a guy who relies on his speed.Zazan was not fodder,she trapped him.

    She noticed Feitan was paying attention to details and she put down her to lure him.
    but he wouldn't done much facing pito compared to what kaito did

    ..he give killua enough time to escape carrying gon .from pito who is super fast and can detect people from a long distance
    that mean they fought for a long period of time

    .we may actually see a flashback of the fight ...

  14. #29
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Originally Posted by souhail View Post
    but he wouldn't done much facing pito compared to what kaito did

    ..he give killua enough time to escape carrying gon .from pito who is super fast and can detect people from a long distance
    that mean they fought for a long period of time

    .we may actually see a flashback of the fight ...
    Pitou wasn't interested in Gon and Killua because they were too weak. When they met again, Killua was puzzled because Pitou didn't use aura, and said Gon has grown to a point where Pitou can no longer defeat him without aura. That means when they first met, Pitou was perfectly capable of defeating Gon without using any aura, which is a staggering amount of difference. Pitou also won't pursue out of a radius from the nest out of his En range since his ultimate goal is to guard the Queen/King, so you're looking at at most 2km to get out of his pursue range.

  15. #30
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member zzigg's Avatar
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    Re: kaito

    Quote Quote:
    Feitan's ability is pretty dumb
    somehow it's dumb ....but maybe feitan as a torture expert.. like to get himself tortured before he set his foes in fire...for me i see this ability suit him well

    Quote Quote:
    Pitou wasn't interested in Gon and Killua because they were too weak. When they met again, Killua was puzzled because Pitou didn't use aura, and said Gon has grown to a point where Pitou can no longer defeat him without aura. That means when they first met, Pitou was perfectly capable of defeating Gon without using any aura, which is a staggering amount of difference. Pitou also won't pursue out of a radius from the nest out of his En range since his ultimate goal is to guard the Queen/King, so you're looking at at most 2km to get out of his pursue range.
    pito did use his aura when he landed in front of them.. killua said that it was the creepiest aura he ever felt
    Spoiler show
    i kinda agree with the idea that pito won't go far away than 2 km ...but if he could he would thats a rare prey and a good information source
    and that's long time enough for killua to get out of their carrying gon ...
    that's pretty much long time for a hxh fight ...also we saw ruined trees and pito scratched ..so they fought for a while
    Last edited by zzigg; March 02, 2013 at 03:41 PM.

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