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Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
The fight is EMS vs SAGE MODE!!
EMS Madara as back then, the one that lost to Hashirama. He also has Kurama as a pet. Madara does not have Kurama out at start and needs to summon it when he feels like.
To avoid genjutsu rape asume Madara can achive no more then Sasuke could vs Danzo.
Asume Naruto is curent version but does not have Kurama inside of him. His chakra levels are the same (aside from summoning more from Kurama). He can pop as many clones and what not as curently in the manga. He can't use any of Kurama's powers. Naruto starts in SM.
No frog song. He can use the elder frogs but no frog song.
Kabuto. Before he lost his mojo. He starts in SM. He has NO ET.
Fight takes place at VOE. Fighters start at 40m distance.
PS. Yes its 2vs1 but Madara also has Kurama on his side and i think that makes up for the diference.
Madara is in another level , Sage mode Naruto isn't even a threat for him ( I mean , with what he shown , he even don't need his MS to beat Sage mode NAruto ) , the only real problem is Kabuto ....
How would Madara with no MS beat SM Naruto? I mean what did he show? Some Katons and good speed? He also has said fan. This is nothing that Naruto can't handle.
Obviously with Kurama + EMS Naruto in SM can't beat it alone but that is why i added Kabuto. Kabuto's flashbang is so good that can cancel Madara's Susano and expose Madara.
and Tobi could stop Naruto rasengan with only his fan ( Madara fan ) in middle of air ....
so what Naruto has against MAdara , Rasengan , Odma Rasengan , Rasen Shuriken , Clone and sage mode sensor ability ....
rasengan is a simple tech and it is like super strong punch , Naruto only can use 2-4 Rasen Shuriken in Sage mode and it is so predictable , and his Forg Kata is joke compare to Raikage taijutsu and his speed is not even considerable ....
so answer me , how can Naruto handle these things :
1- how can Naruto handle Madara genjutsu !? ( regular Sharingan genjutus )
2- how can Naruto handle Madara Katons , I mean , Madara shown that his Katon is pretty fast and pretty wide range attack and he has so many Katon Jutsu as well ( and he still didn't use his fan to strengthen his Katon as well !!! )
3- How can Naruto handle Madara swordsmanship without having any sword !! ( In Obito flash back we already saw Madara arsenal and he had some swords as well )
4- How can Naruto overcome Uchiha Kaejin , Uchiha Gensi and ....
5- How can Naruto overcome Madara with Taijutsu !?
the only hope Naruto has is to use taiju kage bunshi and try to overhelm Madara with his Kage bunshin ... and in this case , he does not have Qb and his chakra so he has limit as well ....
sorry , Naruto Vs Pain was only a plot , Naruto isn't so impressive with his own abilities ( his only two jutsu !!! )
Madara showed a Katon so powerful it took an entire platoon using Suiton, which is supposed to be able to dissolve Katon easily; just to stop his fireball. If it takes that many ninja to stop a basic fire jutsu from him then Sage Mode Naruto isn't enduring it, and Sage Mode speed is no where near a game changer. Of all the enhanced speed techniques in the manga Sage Mode is easily the slowest based on feats. It's the sensing that is the only real problem, which is worthless once you consider the fact that there are two opponents to deal with (one of whom can destroy Naruto with a Bijuudama). Even worse, Naruto still has his Sage Mode time limit, aswell as only 2 or 3 FRS' before he's reverted to normal mode. Kabuto can stay in Sage Mode thanks to his experiments, but Hakugeki won't stop Kurama even if it stops Madara. Muki Tensei can be blocked with Susanoo, as proven.Originally Posted by xXan
Madara wins by simply overwhelming his opponents with high level katon and high speed close ranged attacks. Even if his Genjutsu only does what it did to Danzou, Sasuke's proven that you only need a second's worth of distraction to pull the opponent into a situation where you'll be victorious.
That is just a little crep:Quote:
Yeah compare THAT to this:
Hehe how can he be this powerfull comes from KURAMA... The bloody 9 tails...
1 SM FRS that trew Kurama on his arse would go trough that fan, trough Madara's face and whatever else is behind Madara like a hot knife trough butter.
That is because Obito could use his intangibility... When he could not use his intangibility this happened:Quote:
Take note his fan is there and IN his hand. He was just not fast enough... Oh and casual rasengan in damage can't even be compared to a SM one... So Tobi stoping one with a fan does not imprese me.
That was before he could "blink" into SM... He improved by a good degree since his fight with Pein.Quote:
Oh and going by the databook a SM Rasengan from JMan can care out a MOUNTAIN... That must be some punch there dude.
Clones, Ma/Pa on his shoulders.Quote:
Ma/Pa on his sholders to coutner with some SM tech. Use clones so Madara does not know who to shoot. Place a SM Rasengan just in front of himself to TANK the Katon... Don't give a shit how powerfull said Katon is its not going to be > a Rasengan in SM that i linked you above.Quote:
Naruto does not fight in melee with swords. He trows some mountain busting attacks at Madara that is how. Something that can put KYUUBI on his arse is going to work wonders on Madara... Oh he can also grab Madara and trow him in orbit if he get's his hands on him.Quote:
First ability Madara did not show. Also i fail to see how a wall of fire is going to counter Naruto.
Second ability i have no idea what it is? What is Uchiha Gensi?
Miss and brake Madara's neck. Oh and if he can dodge Raikage from a point blank range he is dodging Madara.Quote:
The limit is good enough. He can send a clone in the forest to get more chakra.Quote:
Yes Pein did not go all out and he was held back for diferent reasons... Still that was damn impreisve... It was PEIN...Quote:
Dodder caracters... Seriously... If i remember right (to lazy to look) Mei contered a Katon with 1 suiton.Quote:
But yes i am sure Naruto can't tank it with his skin and come out at 100%.
For this part i sugest you read what they guy said and what i asked. It was Madara with sharingan and ONLY sharingan(no kurama, EMS, Mokuton and so on) vs SM Naruto. I told him that i sure as hell can't see Madara with sharingan alone taking down Naruto in Sage Mode. Good fight obviously, hard fight and so on but i don't see Madara taking it.Quote:
Problem is (i am asuing this is refering to the topic fight) Madara has to get trough Kabuto and Naruto. Placing just 1 in genjutsu when the other can clearly see wtf is going on... Oh and Madara would still need to know who he needs to genjutsu.. Consdiering the number of Naruto's running about....Quote:
Then don't forget Naruto can send 1 clone in the forst, recharge in second and then release it to get back to 100%.
Katons are not going to overcome Kabuto and Naruto... Not even Kabuto alone... In close range he is also not in his favor considering the fact that Kabuto himself can put Madara in a genjutsu that he can't get out of... Kabuto has a tone of close range abilities and same goes for Naruto.
Nope. It took two katon. And even then, she's a kage. Further testament to the power of his jutsu. Unless you want to claim that the first suiton stopped his katon, and the second was just another attack meant to push him back. And even if that's the case, it doesn't matter, because the first suiton SHOULD have been powerful enough to flatout push through the katon without needing to add a second suiton behind it. That means that even when Madara's jutsu have an elemental disadvantage they're still powerful enough to flatout counter jutsu they're supposed to succumb to.Originally Posted by xXan
Oh. I knew there had to be some heavier nerfing than what I was thinking of if people were thinking SM Naruto could win. The first post says EMS Madara vs. Sage Naruto, so that's what I based my arguments on.Quote:
There won't be any forest once Kurama is brought into the battlefield. Remember this is the original Kurama that Minato fought before sealing half his chakra away. The one that made tsunami by swiping one of it's tails. He can eradicate the entire battlefield in a rage-fueled spinning move or bijuudama. And all Madara has to do is sit on top of Kurama the entire fight. That goes for the deaths of all of Naruto's clones aswell. As for Kabuto catching Madara in a Genjutsu, Kurama is there to aid him during the Genjutsu. Kurama can release Madara from it since he'll still be under Madara's control even during Kabuto's Genjutsu.Quote:
And regardless of Kabuto and Naruto's close ranged options, Itachi's proven that with enough speed a Sage's sensing abilities is no big deal. The only times Kabuto ever managed to harm Itachi is when Itachi was protecting Sasuke. And then when he rushed him with Sasuke's sword, be barely dodged his assault, getting a horn nicked off. I've no reason whatsoever to believe Naruto is superior to Kabuto in taijutsu, and every reason to believe Madara is superior to them BOTH. Though this is all assuming Madara doesn't force Kurama to give him some of his chakra to power him up.
are you aware that I can make some story about Madara and he owning Naruto as well ....
for example :
1- Madara can put an genjutsu on Pa or Ma and use them against Naruto ..... I don't think contrling them is harder than Manda or QB ....
2- Madara can spam his super Katon just like NAruto spaming his Rasengan ... and his Katon is long range and wide scale attack ......
and etc. ....
As i said i don't care for fodder caracters as those are ment to hype a caracter up...
1 Kage could stop a Katon with a Suiton... Now why where 2 needed? Because she also needed to PUSH A SUSANO ffs... Even asuming the first 1 would go trough that huge fireball what exacly do you think its going to do to a Susano? Give it a nice wash? The force would be obviously WAY less after going trough a fire jutsu of that level.
Yes she needed 2 as she actualy wanted to do something to said perfect defence.
Yes his katons are powerfull but not that powerfull...
He asked(or said) something about sharingan Madara vs SM Naruto and we argued that.Quote:
The topic is with EMS Madara as it is in the OP. This was offtopic.
As for the last part of your post of course you are entitled to your own oppinion of the winner. Just a little sidenote, Itachi really did not show he can fight a SM user in close quarters... He showed the ability to use Susano to keep him away (or Amaterasu).
Oh and we have 0 reasons to asume Madara knows Kurama can share chakra or how to make it do that. Brain dead and used as a puppet is not exacly having Kurama giving information to Madara.
Also no feats or reasons to belive Madara is better in taijutsu then SM Naruto using SM senses, stg to make Kurama into a ragdoll and trow it around, put summons into orbit and so on... At best Madara can keep Naruto away with his fan. Madara does not even know about the dodging = broken neck... He could end dodging (sharingan) and then he would end up with a broken neck.
He can't put 2 frogs at the same time in genjutsu. He needs to trap 1 and then the other. Also genjutsu is not mind control... He could make them see Naruto as Madara but they are not brain dead to actualy belive it...Quote:
QB? I asume Kyuubi? If that is so then its not relevant. Kurama and the Uchiha aparently share a special connection. Madara also needs MS for that (part 1 information).
Even if Naruto needs to keep running back to the point Ma/Pa's frog song kicks in and he still wins this.Quote:
Now not stating Naruto wins this at 100% of the times.. But he wins more then not...
Madara does a BBQ of Naruto. Simples. The real nuisance would be Kabuto, tho. But then again, what on Earth those two are going to do again Madara's Kyuubi+Perfect Susano'o Mega Tank anyways?
Last edited by IChallengeYou!; March 06, 2013 at 07:41 PM.
You can look here:
I seriously see her Suiton going passet Madara's Katon... Suiton watersprout i mean. Her Suiton created a wall in the way (so the Kage does not end up dead) and it was a HUGE area... Madara's Katon there just hit a small part of said Suiton tech. They did not colide direcly as they had diferent paths. Madara's Katon did not hit the Suiton head on. The Suiton had a clear path and the Katon hit the Suitons sides... It did NOT get trough.
As i said its powerfull but not THAT powerfull.
Kabuto can also use his genjutsu that put Itachi and Sasuke in genjutsu easy and Madara is just about f*** as he can't counter it... Nobody to bust him out of it with MS genjutsu... Then its a Rasengan from Naruto and Madara goes splat as he is stuck in said genjutsu.
Madara can counter it with a Susano si he does not die (if MS genjutsu can be activated when in said genjutsu then so can Susano but Madara is still stuck inside and Naruto just need to dig his way trough.
Then you've forgotten how the elemental wheel works in the manga. When two jutsu of contrasting elements clash, the one of the "weaker" element not only disappears, but the jutsu that stopped it, if it's moving forward, moves PAST it to continue on. If I shoot a mud dragon at your water dragon, my mud dragon will fly through your water dragon destroying it, and hitting you because earth beats water.Originally Posted by xXan
If you shoot a water dragon at me, and I make an earth wall, your water dragon will hit my wall and shatter helplessly. But if your water dragon is strong enough, whenever it hits my earth wall, it'd crack, or flatout destroy it. Now, when Madara's Katon hit Mei's Suiton, it didn't do what it was supposed to: fizzle out. Instead, it pushed against the wall, attempting to push through while evaporating the water. Then Mei used another Suiton right after. It doesn't matter that they didn't hit head on, because they still hit, and the water didn't do what it was supposed to: destroy the fire.
This was the same Katon used against all those fodder you want to ignore. Remember: it was a bunch of fodder that trapped the Juubi in cement aswell as fodder that defended against it's giant chakra hands. Don't discount their efforts because they're nameless. Fodder, in large enough numbers can equal a dangerous force. Especially when you consider that it only took like, 6 of them to equal the strength of Mei's water wall.
Long story short, Madara's katon IS that powerful.
Wow you can't be serious... You really can't... So fire colides with water and you expect the water to don't evaporate at all.... The fire would just go poof? Right...
The water was suposed to create a wall in front of the fire... IT DID... The water did continue on but in the path it was shoot... It was not shoot in the Katon's way so it would NOT be going said way... It whent down even before it hit the Katon... The katon hit the water, evaporated some of it (makes sense) and continued down in the direction IT WAS SHOOT.
In the end it is clear the suiton would have whent trough the Katon as it was way greater in mass... Whatever small area the Katon evaporated would end up as irrelevant as it was not able to punch trough... The rest of the water would continue on and hit Madara IF it was aimed at him... Point is this is NOT a draw.
Mei's Suiton >>>>> Madara's Katon. It was even BIGGER in size.
Oh and fodder are fodder... Then can do what 1 normal ninja can... That is the point... 1 batalin = 1 ninja (with a name). Its irrelevant what numbers they had. Madara's Katon is not as strong as you people belive and a REAL ninja can counter it with a Suiton no problem. I am ready to bet money Kakashi can do the same.
oh and the art here with the 2 jutsus coliding is the same:
its a COLISION... It does not just go poof. Its a small panel so you can't see the rest of the effect (water evaporating) but the fact that they colide and have an opposing effect its clear... Some of the water WAS displaced and DID NOT continue on even here... Same shit as above but only smaller in scale. This was a Katon from SASUKE vs a Suiton from SAGE MODE Kabuto... A suiton is supposed to overcome the other element and it does but the collision IS there...Water DOES evaporate the only diference is HOW MUCH. If the 2 jutsus coliding are very great (in mass) then you would have a lot of water evaporating like the Madara/Mei event.
I'm not arguing about this anymore after this post. Not just because you're wrong, (though you are), but because you're arguing about how natural water and fire should act, not chakra based fire.
I expect water to evaporate. But I expect the fire to complete disappear upon hitting the water the way it has every other time we've seen suiton vs. katon.Originally Posted by xXan
None of this matters once you acknowledge Naruto has no access to suiton anyway, which proves the point me and LnDRash were making in the first place: Madara's wide ranging katon takes care of any of Naruto's clones, as the only way they can defend against the flames are by fleeing from them, and they are too powerful to be tanked by Naruto with Sage Mode. Kabuto maybe, thanks to his liquefaction, but that would just make his skin evaporate due to the strength.