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Thread: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

  1. #31
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    But without another success, there would be no reason to believe the exchange would result in anything other then failure. For all the failures with Sage Mode, there are also several successes and the mechanics to achieve success is known. Itachi surely wouldn't have staked everything on a blind gamble that had only worked once. There had to have been others who achieved it through the brother exchange to show that it wasn't a fluke unique to just Madara.
    If that is the case, then why have they been so easily forgotten? If someone between Madara and Sasuke achieved EMS, don't you think we'd know about them? You could take the easily way out and just chalk this up to bad writing on Kishi's part, but the fact is no known Uchiha'a aside from Itachi and Shusui rose to heights that Madara and Sasuke have in terms of power and infamy.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #32
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by redrob098 View Post
    I don't believe that 1 through 9 tails have a consciousness but the 10 tails doesn't. The manga mentions that the older son specifically believed that power was the key to peace not necessarily the entire Uchiha clan. No one person represents the entire clan. So the Uchiha son was not a loving person. He sounds more like a dictator. Don't get me wrong it mentions that both sons wanted peace but the older son didn't love like the younger son did. Maybe if he did then things would be different. If the older son really did inherit the sages eyes wouldn't he have received the Rinnegan and not the Sharingan? The sage has not been shown to have the Sharingan, only the Rinnegan.
    Don't forget, the Bijuus were specifically created by the Rikudou Sennin from the Juubi's raw chakra. He was the one who granted them consciousness and intelligences. And believing in power to bring peace doesn't mean he wasn't a loving person. That's basically how the current villages and clans are, ruled over by the strongest. "Ruling through love" is a pretty complicated concept, and the series is going the way to have it that only Naruto is destined to bring that about. It's unknown at the moment whether the Rikudou Sennin naturally had the Rinnegan or gained it after he became the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, and so far it appears as if the son had some variation of EMS/MS, which later downgraded to the Sharingan as time went on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    If that is the case, then why have they been so easily forgotten? If someone between Madara and Sasuke achieved EMS, don't you think we'd know about them? You could take the easily way out and just chalk this up to bad writing on Kishi's part, but the fact is no known Uchiha'a aside from Itachi and Shusui rose to heights that Madara and Sasuke have in terms of power and infamy.
    Who says they were forgotten? Not really, because they don't have anything to do with the current plot. We didn't learn about Shisui having MS til his MS ability actually played a part in the plot. And just possessing EMS or even MS wouldn't automatically mean great power and infamy. Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke were powerful even before they awoken MS, and Shisui was seemingly more well known for his speed. If said Uchiha's weren't already powerful, they likely weren't gonna become much greater upon achieving more powerful eyes, especially with the limits that we've seen.

  3. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Hang on. Hiruzen wasn't trying to seal shit, he was trying to outright kill Orochimaru. He failed because Orochimaru managed to kill him before he could complete the seal, and thus only sealed his arms.

    As for the sealing the Sharigan, it's entirely possible. How? Because something similar has already been done.

    The Caged Bird Seal on the Branch Family members of the Hyuuga clan seals the users eye powers permanently upon death. Considering the Uzumaki's are the best seal users ever, it's hardly a stretch to think they could have figured out something similar.
    The fact is that his abilities were still sealed. He couldn't kill Orochimaru and opted for this, if I am not mistaken. The seal doesn't effect their ocular powers during their life-time, does it?

  4. #34
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    The fact is that his abilities were still sealed. He couldn't kill Orochimaru and opted for this, if I am not mistaken. The seal doesn't effect their ocular powers during their life-time, does it?
    No, the death God being a sealing jutsu is irrelevant. It is one of the most lethal jutsu in the manga because it rips your soul from your body thus killing you. Hiruzen could have killed Orochimaru in other ways, but he also had to deal with Hashirama and Tobirama and thus used the Death God to take all 3 out at once. It was his only option.

    It doesn't affect their occular powers in their lifetime but the eye doesn't die when the body does. The seal acts as a way to seal the eyes so no one else can use them. There is no reason to believe it couldn't be used to seal them while they were alive but there would be no point to that as the seal itself can be activated to kill a Branch Member at any given moment.

    The point is, if the Hyuuga's can create a seal to seal the eyes, then the Uzumaki's, who are the best sealers ever, should certainly be able to.

    ---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Who says they were forgotten? Not really, because they don't have anything to do with the current plot. We didn't learn about Shisui having MS til his MS ability actually played a part in the plot. And just possessing EMS or even MS wouldn't automatically mean great power and infamy. Madara, Itachi, and Sasuke were powerful even before they awoken MS, and Shisui was seemingly more well known for his speed. If said Uchiha's weren't already powerful, they likely weren't gonna become much greater upon achieving more powerful eyes, especially with the limits that we've seen.
    You're really reaching here.

    If there were more Uchiha who obtained EMS we would have heard about them. And even if we didn't hear about them, we would have seen their eyes either via Obito or Danzou.

    Hell, if they had EMS they would have been extremely powerful, and if alive, I find it hard to believe they would have gotten offed by Itachi or Obito during the massacre.

    And if they died before that, why weren't they revived by Kabuto with Edo Tensei? He was able to attain both Itachi and Madara's DNA, why wouldn't he be able to get another EMS users?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    QUOTE=Rikudou King;3334482]Don't forget, the Bijuus were specifically created by the Rikudou Sennin from the Juubi's raw chakra. He was the one who granted them consciousness and intelligences. And believing in power to bring peace doesn't mean he wasn't a loving person. That's basically how the current villages and clans are, ruled over by the strongest. "Ruling through love" is a pretty complicated concept, and the series is going the way to have it that only Naruto is destined to bring that about. It's unknown at the moment whether the Rikudou Sennin naturally had the Rinnegan or gained it after he became the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, and so far it appears as if the son had some variation of EMS/MS, which later downgraded to the Sharingan as time went on.

    Was it mentioned that the Juubi's chakra was raw with no consciousness? I know he divided the Juubi chakra into 9 parts but that isn't creating them. Its creation by division which means that nothing was added to the whole. He took what was there and made them less then the original. Was it stated specifically that he gave each of them consciousness or did they have it because even though the were less then the Juubi, they were like the Juubi?

    As for the the other point is it safe to assume that both sons were both powerful and loving? If that's the case then the statement that one son emphasized power and the other love means that the older son choose to use power over love. The older son made decisions which sacrificed love at the expense of power and force. The consequences of his decisions led him towards Sharingan activation and the emotional toll those decisions took on him caused what I'll call the "Juubi curse" since I still believe that the Juubi is not mindless but is playing a part in everything. If the Juubi does have a consciousness it would be located in the body. Notice how everyone who linked with the statue(mind) was an antagonist through the series. Except Itachi of course because he loved Sasuke. If love is what you emphasize in life then the statue can't affect you.

  6. #36
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    You're really reaching here.

    If there were more Uchiha who obtained EMS we would have heard about them. And even if we didn't hear about them, we would have seen their eyes either via Obito or Danzou.

    Hell, if they had EMS they would have been extremely powerful, and if alive, I find it hard to believe they would have gotten offed by Itachi or Obito during the massacre.

    And if they died before that, why weren't they revived by Kabuto with Edo Tensei? He was able to attain both Itachi and Madara's DNA, why wouldn't he be able to get another EMS users?
    The same logic could just as easily be reasoned for any Uchiha that had MS, which we know there were more of. The only difference between the two is a new technique and no more blindness. The fact remains that if they don't play into the plot, they don't get mentioned, as we saw with Shisui.

    About their strength, I would say look at Sasuke. While Sasuke is quite strong, even upon gaining MS and EMS, he wasn't exactly mowing over the opposition withe ease and he had the benefit of Susanoo that most wouldn't have had. Same with Kakashi and Danzo. And Izanagi is far more Hax then MS/EMS is and is available to any Sharingan user, and they still got wiped out. And as for Kabuto, one would also ask why he didn't revive Izuna or Fugaku or any Uchiha, whether they had EMS or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by redrob098 View Post
    Was it mentioned that the Juubi's chakra was raw with no consciousness? I know he divided the Juubi chakra into 9 parts but that isn't creating them. Its creation by division which means that nothing was added to the whole. He took what was there and made them less then the original. Was it stated specifically that he gave each of them consciousness or did they have it because even though the were less then the Juubi, they were like the Juubi?
    The Rikudou Sennin gave the Juubi's chakra life along with form, and if they didn't have life, they wouldn't have had consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by redrob098 View Post
    As for the the other point is it safe to assume that both sons were both powerful and loving? If that's the case then the statement that one son emphasized power and the other love means that the older son choose to use power over love. The older son made decisions which sacrificed love at the expense of power and force. The consequences of his decisions led him towards Sharingan activation and the emotional toll those decisions took on him caused what I'll call the "Juubi curse" since I still believe that the Juubi is not mindless but is playing a part in everything. If the Juubi does have a consciousness it would be located in the body. Notice how everyone who linked with the statue(mind) was an antagonist through the series. Except Itachi of course because he loved Sasuke. If love is what you emphasize in life then the statue can't affect you.
    Choosing power doesn't mean sacrificing love. Madara and Sasuke, who are all about power, were basically motivated by the love of their clan to the point of selfishness. The thing is, aside from Nagato, all those antagonist were already antagonistic before they even linked up to the Gedo Mazo. So it can't be said to be the Juubi. And if the Juubi did have some malevolent consciousness, wouldn't it have displayed that in the time since it was revived?

  7. #37
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The same logic could just as easily be reasoned for any Uchiha that had MS, which we know there were more of. The only difference between the two is a new technique and no more blindness. The fact remains that if they don't play into the plot, they don't get mentioned, as we saw with Shisui.

    About their strength, I would say look at Sasuke. While Sasuke is quite strong, even upon gaining MS and EMS, he wasn't exactly mowing over the opposition withe ease and he had the benefit of Susanoo that most wouldn't have had. Same with Kakashi and Danzo. And Izanagi is far more Hax then MS/EMS is and is available to any Sharingan user, and they still got wiped out. And as for Kabuto, one would also ask why he didn't revive Izuna or Fugaku or any Uchiha, whether they had EMS or not.

    The Rikudou Sennin gave the Juubi's chakra life along with form, and if they didn't have life, they wouldn't have had consciousness.

    Choosing power doesn't mean sacrificing love. Madara and Sasuke, who are all about power, were basically motivated by the love of their clan to the point of selfishness. The thing is, aside from Nagato, all those antagonist were already antagonistic before they even linked up to the Gedo Mazo. So it can't be said to be the Juubi. And if the Juubi did have some malevolent consciousness, wouldn't it have displayed that in the time since it was revived?
    Actually I believe you are right on both counts. According to the Naruto wiki anyway. Thanks for the lively discussion.

  8. #38
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    The same logic could just as easily be reasoned for any Uchiha that had MS, which we know there were more of. The only difference between the two is a new technique and no more blindness. The fact remains that if they don't play into the plot, they don't get mentioned, as we saw with Shisui.
    Even still, anyone worth mentioning in this manga has been mentioned, Shisui is a perfect example of that. Given the fact that MS and EMS have unique abilities, they would have intrigued Danzou or Obito who collect the damn things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    About their strength, I would say look at Sasuke. While Sasuke is quite strong, even upon gaining MS and EMS, he wasn't exactly mowing over the opposition withe ease and he had the benefit of Susanoo that most wouldn't have had. Same with Kakashi and Danzo. And Izanagi is far more Hax then MS/EMS is and is available to any Sharingan user, and they still got wiped out. And as for Kabuto, one would also ask why he didn't revive Izuna or Fugaku or any Uchiha, whether they had EMS or not.
    Sasuke is also 18 years old, and he has continually fought the strongest people in the world and lived to tell the tale (not always thanks to his own skill but still). He's an international criminal and is known across the planet.

    As for why Kabuto didn't revive them, who knows. Likely because he didn't have access to their remains. Fact remains that none of these Uchiha have been mentioned. None were mentioned when Itachi spoke of EMS, only Madara. If others had achieved this power, don't you think Sasuke would have heard about it before fighting Itachi? Sasuke does have a decent sense of history and the world, I doubt he'd let something about his own clan like pass him by.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  9. #39
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Even still, anyone worth mentioning in this manga has been mentioned, Shisui is a perfect example of that. Given the fact that MS and EMS have unique abilities, they would have intrigued Danzou or Obito who collect the damn things.
    Having MS and EMS wouldn't mean they would be worth mentioning though, which is the point. Shisui was originally mentioned not because he had MS, but because he was connected to Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Sasuke is also 18 years old, and he has continually fought the strongest people in the world and lived to tell the tale (not always thanks to his own skill but still). He's an international criminal and is known across the planet.

    As for why Kabuto didn't revive them, who knows. Likely because he didn't have access to their remains. Fact remains that none of these Uchiha have been mentioned. None were mentioned when Itachi spoke of EMS, only Madara. If others had achieved this power, don't you think Sasuke would have heard about it before fighting Itachi? Sasuke does have a decent sense of history and the world, I doubt he'd let something about his own clan like pass him by.
    Which Sasuke was already capable of doing before gaining MS/EMS. It isn't as if he was a mid tier ninja and got bump up to top tier after gaining MS.

    Itachi only spoke of Madara because Madara was the only one pertinent to the discussion. And Sasuke wasn't even aware of the clan's founder Madara before Itachi spoke to him. He didn't seem to know any of his clan's history or the history of their techniques.

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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    No, the death God being a sealing jutsu is irrelevant. It is one of the most lethal jutsu in the manga because it rips your soul from your body thus killing you. Hiruzen could have killed Orochimaru in other ways, but he also had to deal with Hashirama and Tobirama and thus used the Death God to take all 3 out at once. It was his only option.

    It doesn't affect their occular powers in their lifetime but the eye doesn't die when the body does. The seal acts as a way to seal the eyes so no one else can use them. There is no reason to believe it couldn't be used to seal them while they were alive but there would be no point to that as the seal itself can be activated to kill a Branch Member at any given moment.

    The point is, if the Hyuuga's can create a seal to seal the eyes, then the Uzumaki's, who are the best sealers ever, should certainly be able to.
    It's interesting to note here that Uchiha clan is fully capable of unsealing the Reaper Seal as Orochimaru had to enter the dilapidated shrine, don the Reaper/Shinigami mask, and face the Uchiha Tablet to unseal the Four Hokages' souls along with his arms. If it's the most lethal seal - we can assume so - and Uchihas are capable of breaking the seal, I hardly doubt Uzumaki Clan had anything on them to seal their eyes of all the things.

    That is not the point I was endeavouring to make. If the eye remains unaffected in life-time, and is only sealed in death; how is that a loss? If Uzumaki clan had such seals, perhaps Tobirama could have employed them on Uchiha clan to keep them in check as he deemed them unfit or rebellious on accounts of the whole 'emotional baggage' rubbish he came up with. He never resorted to such a method or even mentioned it means that Uzumaki Clan had no such sealing techs on them, and if Uchiha clan are able to unseal it - provided the original Uzumaki Scroll was with Orochimaru - through their tablet, slants the argument of superior blood-line in their favour.

    Just an observation on my part.

  11. #41
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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    It's interesting to note here that Uchiha clan is fully capable of unsealing the Reaper Seal as Orochimaru had to enter the dilapidated shrine, don the Reaper/Shinigami mask, and face the Uchiha Tablet to unseal the Four Hokages' souls along with his arms. If it's the most lethal seal - we can assume so - and Uchihas are capable of breaking the seal, I hardly doubt Uzumaki Clan had anything on them to seal their eyes of all the things.
    Releasing the Death God seal means nothing, the people would still remain dead with Edo Tensei so the Uchiha's being able to reverse something with the help of ritual mask and at the cost of their own life means little to nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    That is not the point I was endeavouring to make. If the eye remains unaffected in life-time, and is only sealed in death; how is that a loss? If Uzumaki clan had such seals, perhaps Tobirama could have employed them on Uchiha clan to keep them in check as he deemed them unfit or rebellious on accounts of the whole 'emotional baggage' rubbish he came up with. He never resorted to such a method or even mentioned it means that Uzumaki Clan had no such sealing techs on them, and if Uchiha clan are able to unseal it - provided the original Uzumaki Scroll was with Orochimaru - through their tablet, slants the argument of superior blood-line in their favour.

    Just an observation on my part.
    The fact the power of the eyes can be sealed at all means it wouldn't matter if they are alive or dead, there is a way of sealing the power of Doujutus independent of the user.

    As for the Tobirama comment, do you honestly think the Uchiha clan would allow themselves to be deprived of their birthright? It's one thing to seal emotions, it's another thing to see the use of one's Kekkai Genkai. Tobirama would of had a riot on his hands if he tried to pull that.

    The Uzumaki's are the greatest sealing user's in the manga. If the Hyuuga clan is capable of sealing a Doujutsu, I see no reason why the Uzumaki's couldn't do the same, none whatsoever. Does it mean they did it? No, but to say they aren't capable seems to be a little off if you ask me.

    ---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Having MS and EMS wouldn't mean they would be worth mentioning though, which is the point. Shisui was originally mentioned not because he had MS, but because he was connected to Itachi.

    Which Sasuke was already capable of doing before gaining MS/EMS. It isn't as if he was a mid tier ninja and got bump up to top tier after gaining MS.

    Itachi only spoke of Madara because Madara was the only one pertinent to the discussion. And Sasuke wasn't even aware of the clan's founder Madara before Itachi spoke to him. He didn't seem to know any of his clan's history or the history of their techniques.
    We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The fact remains, despite Itachi claiming that the Uchiha clan slaughtered one another for power, there is no indication that any of them succeeded in gaining such power by him or anyone else. I find it hard to believe that any Uchiha who had the everlasting light of the MS would not be worth mentioning, they'd be a serious force to reckon with.

    MS awakens all sorts of powers from S/T jutsu, to amazing genjutsu, and crazy ninjutsu. Unless those Uchiha awakened it and died shortly after, they would become pretty well known I would think.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Which is the key point. We know there was more MS users, enough to establish Susanoo being a rarity among them, yet we haven't heard of them. Same reasoning would apply to EMS. The fact remains that without other successes, there wouldn't be any reason to believe that exchanging eyes would grant EMS, since it would mean that everyone else who attempted the brotherly exchange failed despite knowing the method. That would mean Itachi and Obito took a huge gamble hoping that Sasuke would actually gain EMS. That doesn't seem very likely of either of them, meaning they had to have proof it would have worked. But fine, let's just agree to disagree.

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    Re: Theory: Uzumaki clan knew how to seal the Sharingan activation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Releasing the Death God seal means nothing, the people would still remain dead with Edo Tensei so the Uchiha's being able to reverse something with the help of ritual mask and at the cost of their own life means little to nothing.

    The fact the power of the eyes can be sealed at all means it wouldn't matter if they are alive or dead, there is a way of sealing the power of Doujutus independent of the user.

    As for the Tobirama comment, do you honestly think the Uchiha clan would allow themselves to be deprived of their birthright? It's one thing to seal emotions, it's another thing to see the use of one's Kekkai Genkai. Tobirama would of had a riot on his hands if he tried to pull that.

    The Uzumaki's are the greatest sealing user's in the manga. If the Hyuuga clan is capable of sealing a Doujutsu, I see no reason why the Uzumaki's couldn't do the same, none whatsoever. Does it mean they did it? No, but to say they aren't capable seems to be a little off if you ask me.
    The point is unsealing or breaking the seal. If anything is pulled straight from the belly of a Shinigami; I consider it a great feat. We are talking about a death god here after all. If that seal is rendered useless through the Tablet acting as a catalyst, I find it hard to believe that any other seal from Uzumaki Clan cannot be broken.

    Tobirama could have always tricked the individuals, he did so with his 'Police Force' Facade to corner an entire clan. After all, only Uzumaki clan would know the seal's purpose and Tobirama's motives in turn. Who would reveal the seal's actual workings? Those could have been enforced in a number of different ways; sign of loyalty, Konoha's defense to seal the eye permanently after death, if the Sharingan-user died in battle in a similar manner as the Hyuuga clan employed etc?

    Again, this is mere Speculation. Hyuga Clan never managed to seal the doujutsu in the life-time. If Tobirama had something on him, he could have mentioned it at least, forget its actual implementation which again would be assumptions at my end as far as its usage is concerned.

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