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Thread: Claymore 137 Discussions

  1. #226
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Just a note, I wouldn't take Irene's words as truth. She has shown to be a knowledgeable warrior--except when it comes to Teresa.

    The comparisons she made of her, Noel and Sophia to Teresa were based on a false idea of what she thought Teresa was capable of. And she admitted underestimating Teresa (again) after she had made those comments.

    Even then it's safe to say they were not seeing Teresa's true strength. The only thing Irene got right was PYS. That was probably the one thing that the Org got correct as well. Everything else will be in doubt.

    As for Hysteria, if Miria can react fast enough to avoid a fatal blow from her, I'm thinking Teresa should do much better.

    In terms of raw power I would say Clare and Miria are probably already on a no. 1 level. It's difficult to tell because there's no one to compare them to. I don't buy Clare being already a strong no. 1, if we go just by their basic abilities.

    But if we include their techniques...I always say the QS is a haxx technique; great offense and defense with very few specific things that can get through it. All Clare has to do is time well it's activation, and even a strong no.1 would have trouble.

    I dare say Irene could have defeated someone like Rafaela with the QS.
    Shiro 2

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  3. #227
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Yeah the 'techniques' side of Clare is determined by the people she has interacted with, and the experience she has gained in battles, over the course of her journey. This side is quite transparent and understandable, even if she get powered-up versions via awakening

    The biggest unknown about Clare is her 'raw power' side. She is the only person (IIRC) to have demonstrated how she is able to determine herself how her awakening should occur and what attributes it should give. I don't know whether this is tied to half-awakening, therefore we can generalize out to all the HA's, or whether it's specific to Clare. But at least in Clare's case, it's almost like she can alter the constitution of her body and how it uses youki. this would not be possible for a full awakened, whose abilities seem to be fixed. But even if this is the case, once you've determined how you should awaken in a certain sense, then that is fixed and probably you cannot go through the process again in a different way.

    Her 'raw power' side has two elements: 1) the feeble Clare whose potential seems to be really limited no matter how hard she trains (e.g. what happened while she was staying with Irene - she made some progress, but from Irene's perspective, it was insignificant), and 2) the 'if only I was faster - I need to go deeper, deeper...deeper' aspect of awakening. In this respect she's not like Priscilla, who (as far as we know) had a lot of potential. All of what will become her raw power is determined by being a half-awakened and her relationship with Teresa (according to Daae).

    And in both technique and raw power, there is nothing uniquely Clare's here, unless we count her adaptions of others' techniques, and maybe her youki perception. <speculation mode: start!> so maybe the scene is set for Clare to develop something purely her own.

    This will come in the form of 'what ultimately will Clare's relationship with youki become?' or 'what will the nature of her power (via youki) be?' We can try to answer this in the context of a possible battle with Priscilla, who we stipulate has endless youki and can 'recreate'. I'll offer three ideas, one semi-plausible and the other two purely for thrills

    1: Some kind of ultimate speed ability, that has less to do with velocity and more to do with (something like) youki manipulating time, so she can use her techniques to cut off Priss's head. Endless youki and creation is rendered useless

    2: Via Teresa, she becomes a youki Goddess to whom every possible use for youki is granted. She takes Priss down in a way that can't even be conceived, let alone drawn on some paper

    3: She becomes pure youki itself and drinks Priscilla like a vintage wine from Rabona's best cellar

    p.s. I think a lot of stuff I say here can be challenged Im just blurting out my thoughts
    Last edited by Urfaust; April 08, 2013 at 04:43 AM.

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  5. #228
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Priscilla's main weakness as I see it is her small size (making her a small target), and specifically her inability to move her core/heart around her body like some other ABs can.

    At this point it seems like she'll be done for if you cut her head off. The trick is to do it fast enough that she can't regenerate, and also kill you while you are attempting it.

    Clare already has the QS. It's the fastest attack we have seen if I am not mistaken. So far Teresa remains the only person who can respond to it (whether she uses PYS or just pure instinct and speed is up for debate).

    Now can [awakened] Priscilla follow the QS? More importantly, can she counter it? How? If Clare can manage to bring her speed up she might have a chance.

    Priscilla is one of (if not) the fastest AB we have seen. How Clare can bring her speed up to her level (even if she can steer her awakening into whatever direction she wants) is not clear. As a warrior it doesn't seem to be a particularly talent of hers.

    But thinking about it she might not need to do that. Up to now we are yet to see what PYS taken to its extreme would be. Galatea's ability we see in that AB in Pieta, and it's on another level (what she has achieved now).

    So what it would be like, if Clare (when awakening) pushed to get something even better than PYS? It might indeed turn into some form of time sensing or manipulation. Where she can not only detect everything in advance, but by the micro (or whatever) seconds.

    Good enough speed combined with an ability like that, and with the QS as offense, well even Priscilla would fall.

    Damn, now I want to see an awakened Teresa. Enough yoki to put her (at least) into Priscilla's level, PYS (hopefully) taken to it's extreme since that was her special ability, excellent all-round basic abilities, and if regeneration depends on yoki, enough of that as well, and we have a goddess
    Shiro 2

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  7. #229
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Urfaust View Post
    I'm not sure, but I think Brother Coa means that if the Org were around, given the warriors available to them, they would assign Clare or Miria (probably Clare) no. 1. I agree with this, but would qualify it by saying it would clearly be the weakest generation, because the Org is basically decimated. Miata would be a dark horse for no1 in the future as well.
    pretty sure clare lacks the "leadership" skills needed...had she been the one who was leader she would have rushed off already all yoki blazing when the prssy on Cassandra appeared(remember miria had to say "calm down").


    so i think the Org would have given the N1 to Miria

    (but for fun what would you say the top 9 would be if all the warriors rejoined the Org?)
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

  8. #230
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by number12michael View Post
    pretty sure clare lacks the "leadership" skills needed...had she been the one who was leader she would have rushed off already all yoki blazing when the prssy on Cassandra appeared(remember miria had to say "calm down").
    And I am sure that Alicia had leadership skills as a pro... Teresa too, she was such a great leader...
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    @Dark Night

    Yes! A PYS based ability is a really cool idea! And it might end up being something quite radical, given all the different forms it can take.

    And i wonder what Teresa's awakened form would be like? Something befitting a Goddess, for sure could probably have a whole topic just for that

    @number12michael

    I'm not too sure how the Org would choose to rank them, but for me it would probably be composed from the offensive/hybrid Ghosts + Gala, Audrey, Rachel, Diet/Raftela and Anastasia. It's difficult though cause given the situation, the Org might value putting defensives in the top 10. maybe we could try and get a consensus from everyone

  10. #232
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Urfaust View Post
    @Dark Night

    Yes! A PYS based ability is a really cool idea! And it might end up being something quite radical, given all the different forms it can take.

    And i wonder what Teresa's awakened form would be like? Something befitting a Goddess, for sure could probably have a whole topic just for that

    @number12michael

    I'm not too sure how the Org would choose to rank them, but for me it would probably be composed from the offensive/hybrid Ghosts + Gala, Audrey, Rachel, Diet/Raftela and Anastasia. It's difficult though cause given the situation, the Org might value putting defensives in the top 10. maybe we could try and get a consensus from everyone
    Gala was N3 and she is a defensive type lol.
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

  11. #233
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    No. 1 Clare (assuming the Org ignores her personality. @ Brother Coa: Alicia could awaken into an Abyssal One. Teresa was Teresa. Cassandra is another one who seems low on leadership. Hysteria as well. In all those cases their power was significantly above the no. 2/3 enough that a lack of leadership couldn't offset it.)

    No. 2 Miria (could be no. 1 if the Org values leadership, but I feel Clare still has the edge in offense. The QS man! She has Clare beat in speed and leadership, but I can't see a way around the QS).

    No. 3 Galatea (might be dropped to 4 for the loss of her eyes. But she still has the highest release factor, plus her yoki sensing).

    No. 4 Deneve or Audrey (Deneve has the advantage in regeneration, and probably offense. But Miata comments on Miria and Clare being far stronger than the other Ghosts, which makes it a bit tough to judge).

    No. 5 Miata or Helen (Miata is here only for a short while. Will end up challenging Miria. I put Helen here because she had a lower number to begin with, but given that she's an offensive type she might actually be stronger than Deneve).

    No. 7 Cythia or Rachel. (Cynthia might be here but she has become a just healing item. There is actually no indication that she has greatly improved her other abilities. Rachel seems like an offensive type, and she has her beat in the offense category. Though not in cuteness! But that doesn't count I guess).

    No. 9. Tabatha or current no. 6 (Who was it again?)
    Shiro 2

  12. #234
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    No. 1 Clare (assuming the Org ignores her personality. @ Brother Coa: Alicia could awaken into an Abyssal One. Teresa was Teresa. Cassandra is another one who seems low on leadership. Hysteria as well. In all those cases their power was significantly above the no. 2/3 enough that a lack of leadership couldn't offset it.)

    No. 2 Miria (could be no. 1 if the Org values leadership, but I feel Clare still has the edge in offense. The QS man! She has Clare beat in speed and leadership, but I can't see a way around the QS).

    No. 3 Galatea (might be dropped to 4 for the loss of her eyes. But she still has the highest release factor, plus her yoki sensing).

    No. 4 Deneve or Audrey (Deneve has the advantage in regeneration, and probably offense. But Miata comments on Miria and Clare being far stronger than the other Ghosts, which makes it a bit tough to judge).

    No. 5 Miata or Helen (Miata is here only for a short while. Will end up challenging Miria. I put Helen here because she had a lower number to begin with, but given that she's an offensive type she might actually be stronger than Deneve).

    No. 7 Cythia or Rachel. (Cynthia might be here but she has become a just healing item. There is actually no indication that she has greatly improved her other abilities. Rachel seems like an offensive type, and she has her beat in the offense category. Though not in cuteness! But that doesn't count I guess).

    No. 9. Tabatha or current no. 6 (Who was it again?)
    Renee/Rune was the number 6 and she is MIA
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

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  14. #235
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Renee huh? For some reason I remembered her as no. 9. Well, her being the eye might change things. The Wiki (not sure how accurate it is) gives her some yoki manipulation ability. That would essentially put her on equal footing with Tabatha or Cynthia.

    Then it becomes a matter of other abilities, and whether Tabatha is as strong as no. 6. Really, I can't decide between Cynthia, Tabatha and Rachel.

    There is of course, the current no. 10 (Raftela? Weird name). You're f***ed if you don't know her ability, and you probably still are even if you know.

    Can you like create a yoki shield? Or do you have to release a lot of yoki to interfere with...her interfering with you? If she manages to blind you, one hit will end you.
    Shiro 2

  15. #236
    Reviewer 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    I imagine the best way to deal with her is to bring friends. It seems like she can only manipulate one person at a time.

    What does it mean? It means your about to get your butt kicked!

  16. #237
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Wow, lots of things were posted.
    It seems like Raftela was only number 10 because of her manipulation ability.
    As Rubel or someone once stated, the Org has secret No.10s who barely leave the Organization and stay, as they are the only ones trained in warrior-warrior combat.

    I have a feeling Raftela's offensive skills aren't really good, or even fit for a number 10.
    Of course, her Yoki ability must be really powerful to mess up Roxanne's mind, but would she really be able to kill Roxanne?
    I mean, it seems like a simple mockery of logic here.
    Roxanne must have SOME way to fight back. Remember that Raftela doesn't make the Claymore become completely blind; her ability is just to cloud their vision with hallucinations.

    And against Roxanne, Raftela's skills would not work at all if Roxanne knew it was her being targeted.
    Why? Because Roxanne developed the ability to completely hide her Yoki aura from a single target.
    Remember that Raftela's ability involved Yoki wave synchronization, (as she did to Miria).
    Same result with Priscilla, who mastered her Yoki Supression to the point where even Teresa couldn't detect it at all.

    As with Miria and Clare, I'm sure both are at least Number 2 material, but I am still awry about them.
    Miria, with her skillset, could potentially be a number 1. However, what great feats have we seen from her? Has she done anything that shows her true power? I honestly have not seen anything at all.
    As for Deneve and Helen, they're obviously not contenders for No. 1 as they're still being tossed around like muppets by Cassandra (and Priscilla).
    As for Clare, she probably has the best chances at number 1, except the fact that she is COMPLETELY UNRELIABLE.
    Her greatest ability, QS, or PYS, all come from different people. Despite the fact that she's inherited and mastered these abilities, you have to realize that these abilities made their original creators so powerful only because the creators were initially powerful.
    Now with Rafaella's memories and Yoki Vision Field, Clare is essentially more of a mix of other Claymores than herself (literally).

    But would Clare be able to be a number 1?
    I don't think so. She still doesn't seem to have all the requirements of being a number 1.
    However, if she was forced into a Org ranking system, assuming the Org was revived, she would probably be placed as a number 1 or so, due to lack of anyone more powerful.

    Yet, we can't say this certainty because we still have no actual measurement of Miata's power at all.
    Who knows? She might turn out to be stronger than Clare/Miria.

    As for Alicia and Beth, I feel like both are Number 1 only because of their ability to Awaken/Soul-Link.
    Remember that this technically places them into the Half-Awakened category, and we all know how powerful this makes Claymores.
    The fact that they are HA could have boosted ALL their stats from lower placements to A+s.
    Without the ability of Soul Linking and that specific training, I'd sadly say that Alicia and Beth wouldn't even be single digits.

    Similarly, we have the twins who were the next Soul Link contenders, and they seem to already be pretty strong. (stronger than the average Claymore)
    Furthermore, it seems like Number 1s all have a super-special trait that separates them further from being superior material already.
    Take Cassandra; her Dust Eater. Take Teresa, her PYS. Take Roxanne, her Yoki Sync. Take Hysteria, her speed.
    Take Rafaella/Luciela and Alicia/Beth; their Soul Link abilities.

    And what does Clare have that's so unique to her? Nothing, really.
    I think in this case, Miria with her improved unique Phantom Mirage would actually be a better choice for number 1, especially when Deneve suggests that her base power/speed/strength/Yoki is already better than Clare's.

    As for QS being the fastest attack, I believe Elegance was actually a bit faster.
    Elegance would allow Hysteria to "step" through the QS.
    (Actually, the QS is listed in the Claymore Databooks. Let's pull it up.)
    -Translated by 4-Koma


    This chart shows the Irene's original QS being slightly faster than Clare's QS+PYS combo.
    Irene's QS is faster than all the other listed attacks, including Miria's Phantom Mirage.
    However, Hysteria's Elegance was much faster than Miria's Phantom Mirage.
    We know that Miria's Improved Phantom Mirage which involved going way beyond the Awakening Limit was faster than Hysteria herself could track.
    So there's a good chance QS could be beaten by the Improved Phantom Mirage or Elegance.

    Can Priscilla defeat Clare's QS?
    There's a good chance.
    The Organization tends to underestimate much more than overestimate (in fact, they have never overestimated) when it comes to the Databooks.
    Priscilla's speed is marked as A+ by the Claymore Book.
    Scratch that, Miria's speed is also A+ as well as Noah's.
    (That must mean Miria's speed is A++/S after her 7-Year Training, which assumes Hysteria's speed is at least S.)
    Anyways, Priscilla's base A+ is (by the Databooks) faster than Teresa's base A.
    And even with PYS, you would need the necessary speed to counter the QS.
    Teresa had this "necessary" speed to counter each of Irene's QS strokes.
    However, Teresa seems to be unable to keep up with some of Irene's QS (her shoulder armor plate started being scraped) when Irene used 10% or more Yoki (her eyes were gold).
    With a theoretically faster base speed, Priscilla should be able to counter Clare's QS (since it was slower than Irene's) and Priscilla's awakening already gives her a massive boost.

    Let's recall Priscilla's AB stats.
    Her speed is SSS+.
    Not only that, she also surprised Riful and Rigaldo with her agility.

    I think Priscilla could easily counter Clare's QS.

    @Super: Yes, +1 for the power of friendship!

    Hmm, what else can I say?
    Brb gonna edit in

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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Angillis View Post
    I imagine the best way to deal with her is to bring friends. It seems like she can only manipulate one person at a time.
    That is true and it seems that if you have no morals then you cant be manipulated as Roxanne was only mildly affected and she could not make Roxanne hallucinate... which i think is because Roxanne is a psycho
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
    Unless you provide me someone who is stronger than them right now from the current generation of Claymores ( including trainees and Galatea ) they are pretty much no' 1 warriors without contest.
    I believe Miata was once stated as having the potential of number 1, except (possibly) her Mentality suffered quite a bit, due to the loss of her parents at such a young age.
    It seems like the Organization, even though selected warrior is not really qualified for Number 1, is sort of forced to place a Number 1 as soon as the previous one is confirmed to be dead...
    The short reign of Rosemary seems to be one of these rather unfortunate cases.
    In this case, I would believe Clare or Miria to be a definite contender for Number 1.
    Who would win? I believe Miria. Not only does the Organization have a number 1 for power, they also use one as a model for other warriors as well.
    I think Miria would be better than a reckless Clare. (Miria seems to be much more mature as well, and she has had much more experience/became a Claymore many years before Clare.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jullias Ondore View Post
    The thing is we don't really know how powerful Clare really is now, I mean think about it she has Irene's quick sword " same power level and speed finally", Rafaelas memories which essentially means she has her life experiences. Along with her technique we have just now seen how much she has improved and you can't really call the battles we have seen to date a good indicator the most intensive was against Priscilla before the blob incident.

    They hardly entered the fight with Cassandra and when she did enter both times she did quite a bit of damage to her. So I'm pretty sure she is a number one and a powerful one at that even Alicia in her human form couldn't kill an abyssal till after all her training was complete.
    No idea how Clare punctured that hole in Cassandra in the latest chapter, but she did show some power against the pre-transformed Cassandra with her QS.
    However, we still cannot mark her as a Number 1 yet.
    I'm sure the Organization goes through a LOT of discussion before choosing a Number 1, just like how the USA is shoved into a flurry of political debates 24/7 initiated even before the election season actually begins.
    (Also, we don't even know if Cassandra is an AO yet.)
    Furthermore, Clare still doesn't seem to be ANYWHERE near Teresa's level of power.
    Even after her 7 years of training, Clare still did not stand a chance against Priscilla, who remained in her human form and still proceeded to mock Clare.
    Thus, it seems like all this talk about Clare being so powerful is not really that supported.
    We are simply admiring Clare's use of extremely powerful techniques that were developed by extremely powerful Claymores.
    Without her QS and PYS (and Rafaella's Yoki Field), Clare is a crippled warrior.
    What base power does she have?
    Not much that has been demonstrated; in fact, most of her damage that she did to Cassandra or to any battle she ever has participated in was reliant on her QS or PYS.
    Unlike Miria or most previous Number 1s, without her special "defining" skills, Clare doesn't really have too much qualification for a number 1.
    Yet, she could actually possess the ability, yet Yagi has never shown us Clare fight at a Number 1 level without the QS/PYS.

    The last argument I'll make is the AO fight.
    Sure, it sounds plausible that Clare dealing damage to an AO could make her seem powerful.
    However, we don't even know what this AO is and if it's actually trying much (it's not really Cassandra anymore).
    I also wouldn't readily conclude with Number 1s being able to defeat AOs. I'm sure Teresa could defeat some AOs, but what about Rosemary? Cassandra? Roxanne? Hysteria? Without Awakening, I doubt they'd be able to defeat Isley/Riful/Luciela.

    And yes, the lack of a good comparison with some being with already defined power statistics is the key problem in finding Clare/Miria's power in relation to other Claymores.
    Maybe this was just another massive plot hole that Yagi discovered- he wasn't really able to realistically define Clare/Miria's powers at all; therefore, he avoided it by simply eliminating any fights between them and any defined power.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 137 Discussions /138 Predictions

    Kinda unrelated but do you think there has ever been a N1 who was told about the Dragon kin and show the room below the Org? im sure there had to be atlest 1 other warrior who was shown it? maybe even brought to the mainland
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

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