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Thread: What Ichigo is showing us

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member conn-man's Avatar
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    What Ichigo is showing us

    Ichigo, in the spiritual themed universe of Bleach, seems to be collecting spiritual existences.. becoming a culmination of all the 'species' of Kubo's astral depiction.

    So I have to ask, what does Kubo ultimately have planned for Ichigo to become?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Fact is if Kubo goes "New SK" route he would have inventively killed bleach as a classic in the end, but that's my thoughts

    But lets say SK is one of every race in bleach-verse but his views or ideology is of that to further his existence and to retain his power, without really caring who dies.

    Ichigo would be pretty much the complete opposite, or Ichigo and SK are the same in both their views and ideology, but SK cannot theoretically leave his realm without causing a major upset in the 'space time continuum' (Back to the future reference) with the possibility of ichigo becoming SK's personal shit sweeper.
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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Well, my main theory is that ichigo is actually copying abilities of different type of souls. There are a number of things which would kinda make this posible if ichigo has the traits of quincy and souls.

    Souls in general can become a number of things. Souls in particular can become shinigami and hollows.

    Quincy have the ability to absorb reishi and make it into their own. Kirge even showed slavery which allowed him to absorb allon and change his form based on allons.

    Basically ichigo would have the trait of a normal soul to change into a number of things and the ability of quincy to absorb reishi hence why he is able to absorb power of other beings and mimic them (which is perhaps relatable to kirge changing a bit when he absorbed allon). Zangetsu would be an imitation of a zampakuto formed within ichigo because of rukia and perhaps ishin. Shirosaki would be the result of ichigo almost transforming into a hollow. His enhanced shinigami form would be the result of absorbing reishi from his fullbring which made his shinigami form mimic aspects of fullbring. Basically ichigo molds his soul continually to mimic powers around him. If this is the case though then there would be no need for him to fix zangetsu. Either he makes zangetsu into a real zampakuto and makes himself a shingami or he reforms zangetsu from his very soul because zangetsu came from there to begin with although in that case ichigo would not be a real shinigami at all, just a copy.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

    I wrote that in the chapter discussion but I think it makes sense here too.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Trying to keep up with posts in Chapter Discussion is a bit of bother sometimes especially with the constant bashing of the manga (starting to like these random smilies)

    but anyway more to the point @kkck could make a tonne of sense theoretically looking at pretty much everything you wrote can be seen underlining the entirety of Ichigo's training/fights, so what about if this is why the Asuchai reject him because he does all the absorbing and just contradicts what they were created to do, the RG certainly do know more about ichigo then they let on

    Sorry Off Topic
    Last edited by devstauk; March 04, 2013 at 01:41 AM.
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, my main theory is that ichigo is actually copying abilities of different type of souls. There are a number of things which would kinda make this posible if ichigo has the traits of quincy and souls.

    Souls in general can become a number of things. Souls in particular can become shinigami and hollows.

    Quincy have the ability to absorb reishi and make it into their own. Kirge even showed slavery which allowed him to absorb allon and change his form based on allons.

    Basically ichigo would have the trait of a normal soul to change into a number of things and the ability of quincy to absorb reishi hence why he is able to absorb power of other beings and mimic them (which is perhaps relatable to kirge changing a bit when he absorbed allon). Zangetsu would be an imitation of a zampakuto formed within ichigo because of rukia and perhaps ishin. Shirosaki would be the result of ichigo almost transforming into a hollow. His enhanced shinigami form would be the result of absorbing reishi from his fullbring which made his shinigami form mimic aspects of fullbring. Basically ichigo molds his soul continually to mimic powers around him. If this is the case though then there would be no need for him to fix zangetsu. Either he makes zangetsu into a real zampakuto and makes himself a shingami or he reforms zangetsu from his very soul because zangetsu came from there to begin with although in that case ichigo would not be a real shinigami at all, just a copy.
    This is definitely a possibility, but I don't know if it comes down to Ichigo absorbing the nature of surrounding souls. Quilge did indeed do that with Ayon, but I personally think that was his unique ability, rather than a general Quincy power. A power based on slavery goes hand in hand with his Jail theme.

    But there is an explanation for every level of Ichigo's power. The Shinigami side is obviously inherited from Isshin. The Hollow power was unlocked when Urahara had him in the Shattered Shaft to unlock his Shinigami powers. His Chain of Fate corroded right to the end and he momentarily became a Hollow; those powers simply stayed with him. Having Hollow power goes on to explain him having Fullbring. I actually wonder if Ginjo is correct in saying it only happens when a human is tainted with Hollow power, and if it can't be any type of reiatsu. Ichigo's Quincy blood would actually explain it better, since he shouldn't have had even a trace of Hollow power left after the FGT, but anyway. And now the traces of Quincy power come from his mother.

    Having said that, the explanation of absorbing outside forces would explain one thing I haven't been able to fully understand, and that's Ichigo evolving into t Transcendent being. There's no other explanation for it really. Training for 3 months and perfecting the balance between his Hollow and Shinigami powers, and successfully merging them together shouldn't make Ichigo Transcendent, just a more advanced Hybrid. But he wasn't just HollowxShinigami, he became something different entirely, according to Aizen. So maybe he unlocked that possibility by being in proximity of Aizen during his transformation, either that or the Hogyoku opened the doors for him in the brief time he was around it.

    So maybe you're right. It's definitely something that's occured to me during these last 2 chapters. Still I'd wonder how it's possible, it's not really a trait of either the Quincy nor the Shinigami. Perhaps his Quincy side could allow him to manipulate external reiatsu, his Hollow side could be allowing him to consume it, and it could all be manifesting through his Shinigami side.
    Last edited by NoOneInParticular; March 04, 2013 at 06:52 AM.

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    I don't think sklavery was a personal ability of quilge, the thing was related to volstandig and it was said it was the most extreme form of the quincy ability to absorb reishi. If it had anything to do with quilge's jail it would even be something he could do without his volstandig however what we saw is that merely destroying the disk over his head was enough to stop it.

    Well, the issue here is that the manga has made a point of saying ichigo currently and in the past was not a shinigami on any account. Nimaiya called ichigo a zampakuto-less human meaning that zangetsu was never the same thing shinigami, vizards or even arrancar have. At least my own impression is that nimaiya called ichigo that not because zangetsu was broken but rather because zangetsu is not a zampakuto. That would be the only explanation for nimaiya's comment on ichigo using only his own power up until now rather than asauchi. Only one I can think of anyways.

    Another issue here is that the manga seems to have turned the tables on us regarding how quincy and shinigami powers develop. We used to think that zampakuto were to begin with an inherent part of a shinigami while quincy abilities appeared to be acquired skills. In turn the situation is that zampakuto are given to shinigami and those bond with shinigami affecting them in apparently many ways. Quincy on the other hand might actually be the ones with the intrinsic abilities seeing how ichigo just happened to have quincy abilities. If ichigo is mimicking powers from those around him it is possible his quincy abilities might actually be copied too though. On the other hand it is possible that no one is actually born a shinigami or a quincy to begin with but rather you have to become a shinigami or a quincy at some point.

    Anyways, what the manga hints at right now is that ichigo does not have a "shinigami" side per say. Ichigo was simply born different because his mother is a human quincy while his father is a shinigami soul. If ichigo is not a real shinigami then he likely is not a real hybrid per say either. The only thing left is whether ichigo is a real quincy or whether his quincy abilities are like his shinigami ones which would mean ichigo is not a quincy either. If that is the case and my theory is at large correct then mere exposure to reiatsu from other creatures might result in ichigo immediately mimicking their abilities.

    The transcendental part is something different altogether though. Ichigo as a transcendental being was something entirely different and innately superior to normal beings. More so, my theory is that at large ichigo simply mimics powers around him but that would not explain why ichigo had a power greater than aizen's. If he had merely been mimicking aizen's power then the power would at large have been similar to aizen's own however what ichigo had something which was innately superior to what aizen had. If ichigo was merely copying aizen's powers then ichigo would have had the same kind of power as aizen and aizen would have been able to feel ichigo's power.

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Embrace for impact, a massive wall of text incoming

    Sorry but I really don't wanna go there, if Ichigo's abilities are "copies" made from other soul abilities, then I sure as heck will start to hate on Kubo for the first time, period, lol.
    It would seem so fake, and I really don't like it that way... With all respect for the theory and its supporters though, I don't say it can't happened either, but merely that I don't like the outcome if it did actually happen, personally.

    Also these points makes me believe it won't, but as we all know, all our discussions are subjective to opinions, so lets keep it civil
    • Nimaiya told Ichigo he was a poser Shinigami, but he also said to himself after Ichigo got thrown out that he could come back once he learns his roots (If he could manage to), this doesn't justify a copy of abilities in my eyes, it's evidence, but not enough to be proof. In fact this seems more to suggest that Ichigo is a pure Shinigami, however wrongly trained.
    • Ichigo's dad is a shinigami, we know that shinigami can have kids, it's only that in this case it's a shinigami and a human, why wouldn't he get shinigami powers from Isshin in the first place?
    • His Hollow abilities comes naturally from being a human, and the approach Urahara used to awaken his shinigami powers in the shaft early on in Bleach.
    • His Mother is not only a human but also a Quincy, no arguing there I suppose.
    • His Fullbring was from his mother being close or attacked by hollows when pregnant (Naturally if she's a Quincy, if you ask me).

    In other words Ichigo's powers were made possible from;
    • his Dad: Shinigami powers.
    • his Mother: Quincy, Fullbring, and Hollow powers.
    Ichigo was probably only meant to get Quincy and Shinigami powers from his Mother and Dad respectively, however he seems to have gotten Fullbring by accident, and access to his Hollow powers was Urahara's work, he may never have been intended to have these two latter powers to begin with, but it just happened.
    There are so few Shinigami hybrids (2 in all of history as far as we know), I find it reasonable that he got these 3 powers from his Mother, in fact, his hollow seems to only have been possible because he had shinigami powers to keep it under control, so to be fair, Isshin's legacy also counts in Ichigo's hollow powers.

    Shinigami and Quincy seems to me the two major powers in play for the story and Ichigo, while Fullbring and Hollow powers are supportive powers, that will play a lesser role, for example boosting his reatsu etc.
    While his Shinigami and Quincy Powers likely are what is gonna be focussed much more heavily on, in my view and opinion at least.

    What I like about his Hollow and Fullbring is that they're already now showing to be great supportive powers, however their prime in the past Bleach arc's are way past over by now, I find it reasonable that they will remain close to what supportive power they have already brought, albeit on a greater scale.
    While however his Quincy powers will shine this time, and probably a lot more than Fullbring and Hollow powers, it's the final arc and his Mothers Legacy, so it'd make sense.
    • Fullbring and Hollow powers to boost Ichigo's reatsu to insanity (Don't think either are active at the moment, everyone seem to be able to feel Ichigo's reatsu, unlike against Aizen).
    • Quincy powers to maintain his Final Getsuga Tenshou, defence and offence traits, and increase reatsu to boot (Might be dangerous being close to Ichigo, similar to how Yama was, and this is pretty counter to Ichigo's belief to protect everyone around him, so I like the theory)
    • Shinigami powers still being developed, as it seems to have been doing throughout the whole story, while the two supportive powers, Hollow and Fullbring are more passive.
    • His Quincy powers seems to will get much more love.

    Essentially Ichigo in a everlasting FGT that he will never loose his powers from, would be pretty bad @$$, however I think the trade off will be Ichigo having to be extremely careful while fighting close to people he cares about, and wants to protect (That is like anyone, he wants to protect everyone after all, even Aizen a little in the end after he was defeated).
    I like this idea, cause it'll make Ichigo insanely powerful, but at what cost? Perhaps the cost will some day be too huge, and Ichigo will have to be very careful on this, the same way old man Yama-Jii started to be (Reference to when Yama called himself a demon from the picture of him in bankai, that should never appear again).

    Essentially this is what I like to think will happen, but if it will happen, then it's sadly too predictable, as no one should be able to predict the end if it's a good story, imo.
    Perhaps Ichigo becoming the right hand of the Soul King, and highest ranked Soul below the Soul King sounds very interesting and appealing too, I don't see Ichigo actually becoming the Soul King himself, it's a bit boring, but so is predictable outcomes, so I don't even hope this comes true.

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Well, based on the explanation of fullbring it is actually the one power it makes sense ichigo should intrinsically have. Fullbring is the result of a mother being attacked by a hollow and having a child in the future, masaki was a specialist hollow killer. I wonder what sort of relationship there is between quincy and fullbring abilities. We have not quite seen the fullbring light from quincy so far but perhaps quincy abilities change fullbring somehow...

    Anyways, the issue here is what the manga has presented as fact regarding ichigo and his powers.

    -Ichigo does not use asauchi. If this is the case then zangetsu cannot plausibly be a zampakuto, at least not in the same context as other shinigami like byakuya or renji.
    - Ichigo is not a real shinigami. This was confirmed by ishin and is perfectly coherent with what nimaiya said.

    The implication of either of this is that ichigo did not directly get shinigami powers or an asauchi from ishin to begin with. So we have the situation that ichigo never had actual shinigami powers but at the same time he had his own zampakuto (even if a fake one), hollow powers (which have manifested in the form of a mask and fullbring) and he has recently displayed quincy abilities. Basically the situation ends up being that ichigo has displayed every sort of power we have seen without actually being an actual member of the specie or kind of soul in question. Masaki is a confirmed quincy however it is worth noting that ichigo himself has not actually been refered to as a quincy yet, his quincy powers could end up being the same as his shinigami powers....

    One thing that is interesting though is that quincy powers and fullbring do seem to be completely unrelated. Back when chad was training against renji's bankai we saw urahara wondering just what chad's powers were supposed to be. At the time he compared his powers to shinigami powers and quincy powers and urahara noted that chad's abilities were distinctly different from either. In other words quincy powers and fullbring are as far as we can tell intrinsically different and unrelated. But then again quincy are in a position where fullbringer creation is ideal. Perhaps the explanation about quincy special abilities lies here....

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, based on the explanation of fullbring it is actually the one power it makes sense ichigo should intrinsically have. Fullbring is the result of a mother being attacked by a hollow and having a child in the future, masaki was a specialist hollow killer. I wonder what sort of relationship there is between quincy and fullbring abilities. We have not quite seen the fullbring light from quincy so far but perhaps quincy abilities change fullbring somehow...

    Anyways, the issue here is what the manga has presented as fact regarding ichigo and his powers.

    -Ichigo does not use asauchi. If this is the case then zangetsu cannot plausibly be a zampakuto, at least not in the same context as other shinigami like byakuya or renji.
    - Ichigo is not a real shinigami. This was confirmed by ishin and is perfectly coherent with what nimaiya said.

    The implication of either of this is that ichigo did not directly get shinigami powers or an asauchi from ishin to begin with. So we have the situation that ichigo never had actual shinigami powers but at the same time he had his own zampakuto (even if a fake one), hollow powers (which have manifested in the form of a mask and fullbring) and he has recently displayed quincy abilities. Basically the situation ends up being that ichigo has displayed every sort of power we have seen without actually being an actual member of the specie or kind of soul in question. Masaki is a confirmed quincy however it is worth noting that ichigo himself has not actually been refered to as a quincy yet, his quincy powers could end up being the same as his shinigami powers....

    One thing that is interesting though is that quincy powers and fullbring do seem to be completely unrelated. Back when chad was training against renji's bankai we saw urahara wondering just what chad's powers were supposed to be. At the time he compared his powers to shinigami powers and quincy powers and urahara noted that chad's abilities were distinctly different from either. In other words quincy powers and fullbring are as far as we can tell intrinsically different and unrelated. But then again quincy are in a position where fullbringer creation is ideal. Perhaps the explanation about quincy special abilities lies here....
    What I ponder about is do we truly know that Ichigo has no asauchi? For example, he may just not use it, whatever it is, it could easily be understood this way too, imo, while I agree yours works too, but we can't decide which is correct at this point, imo, so lets stick to the theories on this one

    As for the translation of Isshin recent words, I doubt it was meant like that, also don't forget the master of Trolls, Kubo Sensei himself, is at work.
    He loves to excite, troll and surprise, it could be yet another of his trolls to excite, to put the reader in doubt, like he enjoys to do so much.

    Hints are dangerous when it comes to Kubo, we can't trust foreshadowing or hints, after all, he loves to troll.

    But lets see what'll happen in next chapter

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Shader's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck
    -Ichigo does not use asauchi. If this is the case then zangetsu cannot plausibly be a zampakuto, at least not in the same context as other shinigami like byakuya or renji.
    Of course he can, this "asauchi" thing is more like Urahara's trainig device to achieve ban-kai, it only helps one to manifest zanpakuto. And as in case with ban-kai, there should be ways to manifest one's zanpakuto without it. Or maybe it even deeper, if one does not use asauchi, then by learning his zan name, he will gain a released sword (as asauchi maybe a basic "container" for zan's spirit) just like Ichigo did at Urahara's shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck
    One thing that is interesting though is that quincy powers and fullbring do seem to be completely unrelated.
    I had a different feeling. This whole thing about activating fullbring by remembering the moment of ultimate pride beign a shinigami with usage of a certain item screamed to me QUINCYS!!! Remember the first part of bleach, Ishida was about quincy proud this and quincy proud that, plus this cross he used...the process imo is completly the same. And if we consider the fact quincys developed their strengh to fight hollows mean they know about them somehow, maybe a founder of Quincy order was a fullbring guy who got his power from an assault of hollow and then understant it to it core and by doing so was able to tech his ways to others.
    If this teory is correct, then all non-shinigami powerusers gained their powers from hollow...one way or another.

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Can't wait to see what happens when you combine all these powers.
    And I hope Kubo explains it.

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    Quote Originally Posted by Shader View Post
    Of course he can, this "asauchi" thing is more like Urahara's trainig device to achieve ban-kai, it only helps one to manifest zanpakuto. And as in case with ban-kai, there should be ways to manifest one's zanpakuto without it. Or maybe it even deeper, if one does not use asauchi, then by learning his zan name, he will gain a released sword (as asauchi maybe a basic "container" for zan's spirit) just like Ichigo did at Urahara's shop.


    I had a different feeling. This whole thing about activating fullbring by remembering the moment of ultimate pride beign a shinigami with usage of a certain item screamed to me QUINCYS!!! Remember the first part of bleach, Ishida was about quincy proud this and quincy proud that, plus this cross he used...the process imo is completly the same. And if we consider the fact quincys developed their strengh to fight hollows mean they know about them somehow, maybe a founder of Quincy order was a fullbring guy who got his power from an assault of hollow and then understant it to it core and by doing so was able to tech his ways to others.
    If this teory is correct, then all non-shinigami powerusers gained their powers from hollow...one way or another.
    Well, so far the manga seems to suggest that the things ichigo and renji fought were the actual zampakuto spirits or rather they are the things within asauchi which become beings like zangetsu or zabimaru. If that is the case then there basically is no zampakuto spirit without an asauchi. I guess the manga is just barely ambiguous enough for those asauchi guys to merely be containers or sorts and the actual spirits do reside within shinigami however at this stage I am of the idea that that is the least likely scenario.

    Pride was just one way to activate fullbring IMO. Ichigo just needed a powerful emotion at the time and pride just happened to do the job. And as far as we know the process is not completely the same at all when it comes to using quincy weapons. For starters we know ryuken has a warehouse full of quincy weapons (ishida stole schelee sneider from there). All of those can be used by just about any quincy considering ishida was able to use them freely. Basically quincy weapons are made and designed to have a specific function, they are not fullbrings. More so, it is still a manga fact that urahara made a clear distinction between chad's abilities and ishida's. He specifically made a point of saying chad's abilities were unlike shinigami abilities or quincy ones. It is hard to rule out fullbring as an origin of sorts to quincy abilities however as things are at least quincy powers are sufficiently different from fullbring to make urahara point out there not being a connection.

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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    The most important thing that the Fullbringers taught us
    was the SOUL+OBJECT affinity that enables powers to be manifested.

    In theory, everyone is using Fullbring.
    As long as the user focuses his Reiryoku into an object that is significant to him.
    The source of Reiryoku doesn't even matter. The fullbringers use Hollow reiryoku, the Quincy can gather from Reishi, the Shinigami use their own.

    The Shinigami developing Zanpakuto to be humanoid and sentient may just be a side effect because their base form Asauchi are humanoid and (semi)sentient too.

    The problem with Ichigo now is that he doesn't know his essence/roots. He doesn't have a defining character trait or power.

    And he lost the thing he focuses his powers into (Zangetsu).

    So he's just one giant mass of Reiryoku for now.
    Last edited by rogueSleipnir; March 05, 2013 at 11:27 AM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: What Ichigo is showing us

    I imagine Ichigo's hybrid status something like:

    - Quincy side, provides reishi for his power(s) as well as Blut
    - Fullbring side, makes him connect with Zangetsu more easily than the average Shinigami (because of the soul manipulation thing)
    - Shinigami side, is where he is focusing his combat skills in general
    - Hollow side, makes his reiatsu more powerful

    All of these would of course add to his speed as well.

    This is assuming his Shinigami side would be dominating as it usually has, and not all fused into one.

    The question is, will his Shinigami side still be the dominating one? Or will it be more like 50% Quincy 50% Shinigami?
    Last edited by Notak; March 05, 2013 at 01:30 PM.

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