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Thread: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    No, but different fuel providers put different additions. My car runs on standard lead free super fuel but also on that e10.
    Thus, different forms of flames, give different results. Normal fire = normal Magic power recovery. Flames of Rebuke or God flames = Super Magic power boost. I never said that Natsu can't or shouldn't eat different forms of flames, but he shouldn't eat everything in his way. Eitherion isn't made of flames (While it does contain some fire magic, it has tons of different elemental magic. So yeah), Lightning isn't a form of fire either. So there is no problem in eating different types of fire, but eating other elements is like trying to make your car run on water.

    All magic has one source, doesn't mean that all magic is the same.

    Good question. It was never really said, I assumed that when I saw him training Natsu to use the Phoenix flame blade (the move used to defeat Zero.)

  2. #32
    Intl Translator 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Airgrimes's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    @hoeru
    How relevant were your paragraphs to my post?
    While I agree only in it for the money was an exaggeration, I even re-iterated that I love the series still. I've been a fan for several years way before the anime.
    The way arcs end haven't been so good at times. That's an honest flaw from my perspective.
    Where have I exaggerated in saying a likely reason I feel he is laid-back author is because he is in a much weaker magazine than JUMP.
    Its a fact that the magazine FT is in is much weaker than Weekly JUMP.

    I couldn't care less if others are bashing this manga. I haven't bashed this manga in my posts at all. I love it.
    But many there are various posts on how it falls short.
    I didn't seriously bash the manga so you should invest your time in debating with those who do.

    FT is awesome. But there are areas I feel it comes short. I feel this last arc was just a sudden and classic "Hey... Let's get serious and just win" sort of ending.
    Typical of the FT guild.
    I love it either way, but I reckon in another magazine he would spice things up a bit.
    You can't really call this bashing.

    Although I agree there are people going overboard crying about how much FT has taken a wrong path like other mangas, but to be fair it isn't too bad in this thread from what I've seen.

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  4. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Thus, different forms of flames, give different results. Normal fire = normal Magic power recovery. Flames of Rebuke or God flames = Super Magic power boost. I never said that Natsu can't or shouldn't eat different forms of flames, but he shouldn't eat everything in his way.
    Sorry, but that's only how you WANT it to be - and that's why you were exaggerating by saying "eat everything in his way". Apparently Mashima did not follow your way of interpreting different elements as different fuels for Dragon Slayers. Which is why he came up with different dishes in Chapter 2 in the first place.

    Why is he wrong, while you are right? Why shouldn't characters be able to overcome their initial limitations?

  5. #34
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Sorry, but that's only how you WANT it to be - and that's why you were exaggerating by saying "eat everything in his way". Apparently Mashima did not follow your way of interpreting different elements as different fuels for Dragon Slayers. Which is why he came up with different dishes in Chapter 2 in the first place.

    Why is he wrong, while you are right? Why shouldn't characters be able to overcome their initial limitations?
    Where did it look like that's how I want it to be ? I'm simply pissed off because the author keep pulling random things. HE first said that Natsu can only eat fire because he's a fire DS. And Gajeel can eat Iron because he's an Iron DS. But now, Natsu is constantly eating other stuff how and whenever he wants and have actually stopped eating fire for a while now. And to make it even worst, Gajeel joined the party.

    I still like FT, but I as readers and fans we should give some constructive criticism.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; March 13, 2013 at 12:34 AM.

  6. #35
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Where did it look like that's how I want it to be ? I'm simply pissed off because the author keep pulling random things. HE first said that Natsu can only eat fire because he's a fire DS. And Gajeel can eat Iron because he's an Iron DS.
    Page? I'm sure he say Natsu can eat fire because he's Fire DS. But I don't recall him saying that he can only eat fire. If it say so, I'm pretty sure that it mention that most of the time, Natsu get really sick or weak afterward.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

    If you knows you're on my ignore list and you quote my post, there's high chance I would ignore you. Or answer you and not look at your response.

  7. #36
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Where did it look like that's how I want it to be ?
    I'll point it out for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I never said that Natsu can't or shouldn't eat different forms of flames, but he shouldn't eat everything in his way.
    Your way of thinking lacks of source from manga, or interviews.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'm simply pissed off because the author keep pulling random things.
    See, I tried to explain it: You completely misunderstood the concept of elements, and their usage by Dragon Slayers in Fairy Tail manga. Probably because you transfer stuff from other stories onto Fairy Tail. Therefore it appears to be random to you. But actually, it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    HE first said that Natsu can only eat fire because he's a fire DS.
    I'd like to request a source for "only fire". Sure, Natsu was introduced as someone who eats fire because he's a Dragon Slayer taught to eat fire. But who said that Natsu's development is finished by that, and he's only going to pull out new techniques?

    And still we know NOTHING about Igneel's aims to make Natsu a Dragon Slayer, nor was it ever said that the old dragon slayers were limited to one element, as Dragon Slayer magic was declared to be Lost Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    But now, Natsu is constantly eating other stuff how and whenever he wants and have actually stopped eating fire for a while now.
    And ... How should Natsu eat fire if there aren't any flames to consume?! He doesn't eat his own flames.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And to make it even worst, Gajeel joined the party.
    So Natsu's major rival who still is bothered because he lost to Natsu and acknowledged his advancements is not allowed to stay a rival who's equal in strength?

    That would be like saying: Vegeta isn't allowed to become a Super Saiyan 2, because Goku already became a Super Saiyan 2, many years after Gohan became that.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I still like FT, but I as readers and fans we should give some constructive criticism.
    Sorry, where's the constructive criticism in saying "I don't like how Mashima made Natsu eat something else then Fire. He should've done something that fits into my world!" because the original concept is misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I love it either way, but I reckon in another magazine he would spice things up a bit.
    You can't really call this bashing.
    See, it is bashing as you state Fairy Tail would become an other manga or better or "spiced up" if it ran in a different magazine. But there is only your assumption it would, without any hints that Fairy Tail wouldn't also run out of concurrence within that other magazine.

    I may repeat: Fairy Tail sells well. Much better than most of Jump manga which only tops other magazines because of One Piece and Naruto.

  8. #37
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Getting around to responding to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Then compare yourself:
    You're using the numbers wrong.
    Quote Quote:
    http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...by-series/2011
    http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...by-series/2012

    Only 600,000 volumes less sold, and stayed in Top 5, and comparing to other Top 10 long-running series, within one year, Fairy Tail didn't lose as much readers - if I see this correctly, only Naruto lost less.
    The drop between the years is primarily due to fewer older volumes being purchased. It's not a mark of losing readers (e.g. One Piece did not lose millions of readers between 2011 and 2012), it's a mark of slowing of growth. New fans start the series, and start buying older volumes. Then they get their collection up to date and stop.

    Quote Quote:
    From Feb 11 to Mar 2, Fairy Tail 36 brought 368,675 copies into circulation within 3 weeks. Fairy Tail 35 brought 373,216 units into circulation within 4 weeks. Standard versions only, without OVA-DVD.

    Last year's Fairy Tail 31: 358,061 copies from Feb 13, 2012 to Mar 4. Again three weeks.
    And with the limited editions, Volume 36 has sold 455,856 copies, and Volume 35 has sold 434,053 copies, and Volume 31 has sold 420,069 copies. You have to include the Limited Edition versions in the count. That they come with and OVA DVD is irrelevant as far as how many manga volumes have sold. Those sales are generally people buying the limited edition instead of the regular edition, and as a result cannibalizing the regular edition sales numbers. If you don't include them, you give an incomplete picture.

    Still, your overall point is right, Fairy Tail's sales are stable, not falling like Bleach's was for a while there.

    Quote Quote:
    Read Ultear's explanations about Second Origin, damnit! It's explained there. Once the "first container" is depleted, the mage can access the second container. Even if there's still some power left in the first container, all the mage needs to do is using up the power. That's a no-brainer to figure out.
    There's no requirement that the mage deplete their first container to use the second. It's simply additional magic storage. They can use both of them at the same time as though they were one. Which is what everyone except Erza has been doing until now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
    Why Fairy Tail falls short.

    1. Hiro Mashima doesn't care about the series & is only drawing it since it makes him money.
    Lovely baseless ad hominem you've got there, would you like to claim he hates children well you're at it? Perhaps that he's a tax evader? Both claims have as much basis as the claim that he doesn't care about the series and is only drawing it for money.

    Really, if you're going to engage in mindless bashing, you might as well not hold back.

  9. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    I'll point it out for you:



    Your way of thinking lacks of source from manga, or interviews.
    What is that supposed to mean ? I really don't get it.

    Quote Quote:
    See, I tried to explain it: You completely misunderstood the concept of elements, and their usage by Dragon Slayers in Fairy Tail manga. Probably because you transfer stuff from other stories onto Fairy Tail. Therefore it appears to be random to you. But actually, it is not.
    No. This has nothing to do with other manga at all. It really is random. He's a fire DS that eats fire replenish his energy. Then he eats Lightning...

    Your point would've made sense, if they actually explained what happened. Like how they explained his capability of eating God's flames. But they didn't...He just came in and ate other stuff. You usually explain these kind of things but not now. That's why it's hard to take in...

    Quote Quote:
    I'd like to request a source for "only fire". Sure, Natsu was introduced as someone who eats fire because he's a Dragon Slayer taught to eat fire. But who said that Natsu's development is finished by that, and he's only going to pull out new techniques?

    And still we know NOTHING about Igneel's aims to make Natsu a Dragon Slayer, nor was it ever said that the old dragon slayers were limited to one element, as Dragon Slayer magic was declared to be Lost Magic.
    Wow... I mean, when you hear a fire DS eats fire to replenish himself. You would think it's obvious that he can only eat fire. Like when you hear about a carnivore, you instantly know he eats meat. The same way when Lucy heard about an Iron DS, she instantly knew he eat Iron. The reason it's obvious is because fire has no effect on himself, that's why he can just eat it or brush it off. But Lightning DOES hurt him and a lot if I may add. But he ate anyway. Try drinking gasoline to replenish yourself, see how effective it is. And if he would just eat it for a moment and that's it, I could take it. But he keeps it with him for the long run.

    Quote Quote:
    And ... How should Natsu eat fire if there aren't any flames to consume?! He doesn't eat his own flames.
    He should look for flames or just lose. There is more experience in losing than in winning. I never heard of a carnivore who just decided to eat plants because there isn't any meat.

    Quote Quote:
    So Natsu's major rival who still is bothered because he lost to Natsu and acknowledged his advancements is not allowed to stay a rival who's equal in strength?

    That would be like saying: Vegeta isn't allowed to become a Super Saiyan 2, because Goku already became a Super Saiyan 2, many years after Gohan became that.
    No. God no. Natsu's major rival is Gray. Gajeel who was the biggest joke 7 years ago and perhaps the weakest of the S-class candidates (with the exception of Elfman and Ever), not only that. But he was tiers below Natsu. And now out of nowhere, he's equal to him.

    And even if he was his main rival, is that an excuse for going around doing the same thing ? The case with Vegeta is different. SS2 is a stage every Saiyan is bound to reach with training. If Gajeel went Dragon Force, okay fine. But imagine Vegeta going around learning Kamehameha and Instant transmission to be Goku's rival.

    Quote Quote:
    Sorry, where's the constructive criticism in saying "I don't like how Mashima made Natsu eat something else then Fire. He should've done something that fits into my world!" because the original concept is misunderstood?
    By pointing out the flaws in what he's doing...

  10. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Your point would've made sense, if they actually explained what happened. Like how they explained his capability of eating God's flames. But they didn't...He just came in and ate other stuff. You usually explain these kind of things but not now. That's why it's hard to take in...
    Have you been looking at the panels or did you just read the dialogue or only the spoilers?! Natsu mixes the God flames with his Dragon flames (bottom of page, he powered up and strikes, and afterwards thos flames don't hurt him anymore. He lets the God flames consume his Dragon Flames and then starts to eat them. Makarov instantly explaines it by "creating a vessel to eat those flames"...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He should look for flames or just lose.
    Thank you for proving that you don't want Natsu's power to evolve at all. That you want him to stick with only Fire DS magic and to come up with asspulls why Natsu's Fire DS magic suddenly can overpower an opponent by training and stupid power levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Natsu's major rival is Gray.
    No. Elsa and Luxus are more rivals to Natsu than Gray. But Gajeel is Natsu's major rival in case of being a first generation Dragon Slayer who lost his foster parent.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Gajeel who was the biggest joke 7 years ago and perhaps the weakest of the S-class candidates (with the exception of Elfman and Ever), not only that.
    I see. You haven't even read the Tenrou arc nor the Galuna arc... Gajeel wasn't an S-rank candidate. Levi was, and he became her partner. And S rank is by no means only a sign of strength as Phantom Lord's S rankers lost to mainly to Gray and Elfman. The main point of the S rank is: It grants a mage to accept more difficult and more lucrative mission requests on his own without looking for a S rank mage.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    But he was tiers below Natsu. And now out of nowhere, he's equal to him.

    And even if he was his main rival, is that an excuse for going around doing the same thing ? The case with Vegeta is different. SS2 is a stage every Saiyan is bound to reach with training. If Gajeel went Dragon Force, okay fine. But imagine Vegeta going around learning Kamehameha and Instant transmission to be Goku's rival.
    Eating other elements and obtaining a mixed element mode is power up as achieving SSJ2. Kamehame Ha and Transmission are techniques. Gajeel basically already uses the same techniques as Natsu. What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    By pointing out the flaws in what he's doing...
    No. No that's not constructive critic. What I've read was bashing either Mashima or Fairy Tail. Constructive would be like stating what flaws there are, without exaggerating but by saying WHY there's flaw out of the manga by giving examples - and then come up with a reasonable explanation what and why you think could enhance.

  11. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Rarhyx's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    @"DS should only eat their element":
    IMO it would be dumb (for the dragonhumanparty) to teach humans only one dragon element.
    imagine there are only 2 fire dragons. one of them Igneel, the other one on the humaneating side.
    Igneel teaches Natsu fire DS, so Natsu could only compete with the other fire dragon and would lose to other elemental dragons, what's the purpose of a DS then?
    I think Mashima planned it from the beginning for 1. Gen DS being able to eat other elements.

  12. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member darkprince0521's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rarhyx View Post
    @"DS should only eat their element":
    IMO it would be dumb (for the dragonhumanparty) to teach humans only one dragon element.
    imagine there are only 2 fire dragons. one of them Igneel, the other one on the humaneating side.
    Igneel teaches Natsu fire DS, so Natsu could only compete with the other fire dragon and would lose to other elemental dragons, what's the purpose of a DS then?
    I think Mashima planned it from the beginning for 1. Gen DS being able to eat other elements.
    and why Natsu would only be able to compete against Fire Dragon and not others? i don't think using only fire element will be stopping him from fighting against other element.
    Naruto Forever


  13. #42
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    Have you been looking at the panels or did you just read the dialogue or only the spoilers?! Natsu mixes the God flames with his Dragon flames (bottom of page, he powered up and strikes, and afterwards thos flames don't hurt him anymore. He lets the God flames consume his Dragon Flames and then starts to eat them. Makarov instantly explaines it by "creating a vessel to eat those flames"...
    I already said that they explained him eating God's flames. What I was talking about is how they didn't explain him eating Laxus's lightning, Gajeel eating Rogue's shadow or Eitherion.


    Quote Quote:
    Thank you for proving that you don't want Natsu's power to evolve at all. That you want him to stick with only Fire DS magic and to come up with asspulls why Natsu's Fire DS magic suddenly can overpower an opponent by training and stupid power levels.
    Why should he get different elements ? Is he better than the others around him ? Is he better than Gray who trains, use skill, creativity and tactics ? Is he better than Jura who only use earth magic ?

    No. He should train like those guys do. He should experience defeat. By doing so, his character can actually develop and grow. By giving him a random power up and having him do the unthinkable and eat Lightning and even keep it and having him constantly win. Hiro mashima didn't allow any character development.

    Quote Quote:
    No. Elsa and Luxus are more rivals to Natsu than Gray. But Gajeel is Natsu's major rival in case of being a first generation Dragon Slayer who lost his foster parent.
    Then Wendy is his rival too ? Laxus and Erza are more like his "goal" than his rivals. Gray was introduced as his destined rival and Happy constantly acknowledge them as equals. Gajeel is also his rival but not his main or "major" rival.

    Quote Quote:
    I see. You haven't even read the Tenrou arc nor the Galuna arc... Gajeel wasn't an S-rank candidate. Levi was, and he became her partner. And S rank is by no means only a sign of strength as Phantom Lord's S rankers lost to mainly to Gray and Elfman. The main point of the S rank is: It grants a mage to accept more difficult and more lucrative mission requests on his own without looking for a S rank mage.
    How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I didn't read TI arc or Galuna arc ? This is the same as the first quote. You simply misunderstood what I said. What I meant was, Gajeel was the weakest guy on Tenrou Island (since most of them there were S-class candidate.) I did however forget that Levy was the S class candidate. In noway did my post contain anything about the strength of S class mages.

    Quote Quote:
    Eating other elements and obtaining a mixed element mode is power up as achieving SSJ2. Kamehame Ha and Transmission are techniques. Gajeel basically already uses the same techniques as Natsu. What's your point?
    Nope. It's really not. Power ups and stages are different. SS2 Is a natural stage for a Saiyan, just like how DF is a natural stage for DS. A better example : Imagin Vegeta using Kaioken just because he's Goku's rival.

    Quote Quote:
    No. No that's not constructive critic. What I've read was bashing either Mashima or Fairy Tail. Constructive would be like stating what flaws there are, without exaggerating but by saying WHY there's flaw out of the manga by giving examples - and then come up with a reasonable explanation what and why you think could enhance.
    Well, that's probably someone else's post. I didn't bash him, I'm pointing out the flaws in what he's doing.

  14. #43
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I already said that they explained him eating God's flames. What I was talking about is how they didn't explain him eating Laxus's lightning, Gajeel eating Rogue's shadow or Eitherion.
    To extract it's power, of course.

    If you want a detailed explanation of why Natsu's body is able to strengthen on other elements than fire, I'd like to hear from you why he should replenish from flames in the first place... Something beyond "because he's a Fire DS", of course. Since if there's no better reason than that, there's no reason at all to come up with the denial that Natsu has always been able to eat other elements and gain power from it.

    As a matter of fact, no one can explain how dragon slayer magic really works, because there's no data at all how it really works, how it's taught and how one becomes a dragon slayer.

    People get just frustrated because their theory doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Why should he get different elements ? Is he better than the others around him ?
    Oh, jealousy. Great. No. Of course, 1st generation DS are allowed to eat other elements as on their introduction because their magic allows to eat magic in the first place.

    BTW, make magic isn't restricted on ice only. If he was taught by Lucky, Grey should be able to do some Wood Make, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Is he better than Gray who trains, use skill, creativity and tactics ?
    So, now you want him to be out of character?!?! Natsu clearly lost his head in battles, so swallowing other elements without thinking to gain power from it is very much in-character.

    After eating Etherion lachrima and absorbing its power, Natsu learned (watch out it's character development!!!) that he can replenish from other elements than just fire. But as we learned: He's extremely exhausted afterwards - he also knows that, so he uses it at last resort. And at some point, he already failed, remember? Against Hades. His mixed mode was useless against Hades until Lily's team destroyed Hades' power source.

    Yeah, "The Hero gets a power up to defeat the enemy" isn't actually original, true. But point your fingers to any manga in this forum - it's the same there if said that plain.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Is he better than Jura who only use earth magic ?
    No one but you comes up with Natsu being better than other characters...

    But still: Natsu is a title character. So rule#1 of ALL stories so far: The title character gets the most screentime, the best power ups, and at some point becomes so strong he's the last and best hope to all characters within the story.

    You asked for the reason Natsu being better than other characters. What's the reason Ichigo is better than Zaraki Kenpachi? What's the reason Komatsu is more gifted than any of the cooks - even the established ones with a much higher rank - in Toriko? Why is Luffy blessed with the Haoushoku while Usopp isn't?

    Oh, and if they're facing a dragon: Yes, Natsu is, but only better suited.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. He should train like those guys do.
    He does. But Mashima decided not to show stupid and boring training arcs in between the arcs he provides. Oda and Shimabukuro cut them out, too, so hooray! And I'm really glad for him not using too many flashbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He should experience defeat.
    But, he does experience defeat. But like all other title characters, Natsu comes and pays back.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    By doing so, his character can actually develop and grow. By giving him a random power up and having him do the unthinkable and eat Lightning and even keep it and having him constantly win. Hiro mashima didn't allow any character development.
    Character development through losses is over-rated. Massively. Luffy's character didn't grow any single bit from losing to Crocodile TWICE in Arabasta, nor from losing to Aokiji or Magellan.

    You keep repeating the "random power up stuff" btw which has been already explained not to be just because you stick on your chewbacca-like orange juice defense...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Then Wendy is his rival too ?
    Has Wendy eaten anything other then air so far? Still, I expect her Wendy eating other elements which could simply happen because she's not dumb. The Light element would pretty much fit to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I didn't read TI arc or Galuna arc ? This is the same as the first quote. You simply misunderstood what I said. What I meant was, Gajeel was the weakest guy on Tenrou Island (since most of them there were S-class candidate.) I did however forget that Levy was the S class candidate. In noway did my post contain anything about the strength of S class mages.
    You used Gajeel losing his S rank as sign for his weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Nope. It's really not. Power ups and stages are different. SS2 Is a natural stage for a Saiyan
    Um. No, it's not. Super Saiyan stages are the emotional powerup. Toriyama brought up the "powerup through rage and anger" for both first and second stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    just like how DF is a natural stage for DS.
    Dragon Force hasn't anything to do with an emotional powerup.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    A better example : Imagin Vegeta using Kaioken just because he's Goku's rival.
    No. Kaiouken is a technique tought by Kaiou - Kaiou was hyped of Goku because he was the first he met who could learn the Kaiouken. So of course, Vegeta could've learned the Kaiouken if he wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Well, that's probably someone else's post. I didn't bash him, I'm pointing out the flaws in what he's doing.
    Again: It's only the first part to "point out the flaws". The very first. You still need to come up with REASONS that can't be denied by facts from the manga that those "flaws" are nothing but being disappointed that theories didn't come true.

  15. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoeru View Post
    To extract it's power, of course.

    If you want a detailed explanation of why Natsu's body is able to strengthen on other elements than fire, I'd like to hear from you why he should replenish from flames in the first place... Something beyond "because he's a Fire DS", of course. Since if there's no better reason than that, there's no reason at all to come up with the denial that Natsu has always been able to eat other elements and gain power from it.

    As a matter of fact, no one can explain how dragon slayer magic really works, because there's no data at all how it really works, how it's taught and how one becomes a dragon slayer.

    People get just frustrated because their theory doesn't work.
    So you can't come up with a good explanation ? Natsu eating fire is just who he is. That like asking: explain why Goku is a Saiyan ? You not being able to come up with an explanation means I'm right and you're wrong.

    What theory ? This isn't theory, all we need is some explanations and better story telling.

    Quote Quote:
    Oh, jealousy. Great. No. Of course, 1st generation DS are allowed to eat other elements as on their introduction because their magic allows to eat magic in the first place.

    BTW, make magic isn't restricted on ice only. If he was taught by Lucky, Grey should be able to do some Wood Make, too.
    Jealousy of what ? What are you talking about ?

    No they aren't allowed to eat other elements, they were supposed to eat their elements. Gray has no need to learn other magic, as a mage, they should take pride in their magic. Especially those who's teacher died\disappeared. What happened to all that crap about "There is no room for more the one Dragon in the sky" - Gajeel and Natsu.

    Quote Quote:
    So, now you want him to be out of character?!?! Natsu clearly lost his head in battles, so swallowing other elements without thinking to gain power from it is very much in-character.

    After eating Etherion lachrima and absorbing its power, Natsu learned (watch out it's character development!!!) that he can replenish from other elements than just fire. But as we learned: He's extremely exhausted afterwards - he also knows that, so he uses it at last resort. And at some point, he already failed, remember? Against Hades. His mixed mode was useless against Hades until Lily's team destroyed Hades' power source.

    Yeah, "The Hero gets a power up to defeat the enemy" isn't actually original, true. But point your fingers to any manga in this forum - it's the same there if said that plain.
    Out of character ? Then explain to me, why he suddenly became a genius in here : http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/295/24
    So much like his character, is it not ?

    He didn't learn anything. He's just randomly eating stuff. Like "Oh hey, I can eat Eitherion...That must mean I can eat lightning too." How would someone come up with such a conclusion ?

    The hero in other manga don't get RANDOM power ups. The term random, refers to an unexplained or out of nowhere power up.

    Quote Quote:
    No one but you comes up with Natsu being better than other characters...

    But still: Natsu is a title character. So rule#1 of ALL stories so far: The title character gets the most screentime, the best power ups, and at some point becomes so strong he's the last and best hope to all characters within the story.

    You asked for the reason Natsu being better than other characters. What's the reason Ichigo is better than Zaraki Kenpachi? What's the reason Komatsu is more gifted than any of the cooks - even the established ones with a much higher rank - in Toriko? Why is Luffy blessed with the Haoushoku while Usopp isn't?

    Oh, and if they're facing a dragon: Yes, Natsu is, but only better suited.
    Oh yeah, cool. Because he's the main character he doesn't have to lose, train, use his mind and constantly get power ups. Nice logic.

    Who said Ichigo is better than Kenpachi ? Don't know about Toriko. Luffy -according to Garp- inherited it.

    Quote Quote:
    He does. But Mashima decided not to show stupid and boring training arcs in between the arcs he provides. Oda and Shimabukuro cut them out, too, so hooray! And I'm really glad for him not using too many flashbacks.
    He doesn't. When he got the chance to train...

    "Oh hey , Ultear. Yeahhhh ! Power up, yeah."

    Quote Quote:
    But, he does experience defeat. But like all other title characters, Natsu comes and pays back.
    No. The don't lose and just come back. They train, they grow, then they come back. When Ichigo lost to Grimmijow he went to train, become a lot stronger and challenged him again. When Kuroko and Kagami got crushed by Aomine, they grew A LOT...

    Quote Quote:
    Character development through losses is over-rated. Massively. Luffy's character didn't grow any single bit from losing to Crocodile TWICE in Arabasta, nor from losing to Aokiji or Magellan.

    You keep repeating the "random power up stuff" btw which has been already explained not to be just because you stick on your chewbacca-like orange juice defense...
    Did you even read the CP9 saga ? Luffy himself stated that his loss against Aokiji was what motivated him to train and develop gear 2 and 3. It was what opened his eyes to how weak he is. When he lost to Crocodile, he kept using his mind and still needed a lot of help.

    Give me the explanation then...

    So far, you've done nothing but give the most useless of excuses to defend Natsu and the series...

    You've yet to give me one solid argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Has Wendy eaten anything other then air so far? Still, I expect her Wendy eating other elements which could simply happen because she's not dumb. The Light element would pretty much fit to her.
    You said that Gajeel is his rival because he's a first generation DS...
    So Wendy is his rival too ?

    Quote Quote:
    You used Gajeel losing his S rank as sign for his weakness.
    Never did. You just changed the topic because you couldn't find anything to say.

    Quote Quote:
    Um. No, it's not. Super Saiyan stages are the emotional powerup. Toriyama brought up the "powerup through rage and anger" for both first and second stage.
    It's still a natural stage for a Saiyan...

    Quote Quote:
    Dragon Force hasn't anything to do with an emotional powerup.
    Natural stage. How you access it is irrelevant.

    Quote Quote:
    No. Kaiouken is a technique tought by Kaiou - Kaiou was hyped of Goku because he was the first he met who could learn the Kaiouken. So of course, Vegeta could've learned the Kaiouken if he wanted.
    But he didn't. Because it's stupid to copy your rival in an attempt to be his equal.

    Quote Quote:
    Again: It's only the first part to "point out the flaws". The very first. You still need to come up with REASONS that can't be denied by facts from the manga that those "flaws" are nothing but being disappointed that theories didn't come true.
    You have yet to give a single reason that denies my point. All you did was give false examples and change the topics every time.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hoeru's Avatar
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    Re: How FT falls short and how it gets it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That like asking: explain why Goku is a Saiyan ?
    Because Kakarot was born a Saiyan, not Human. Therefore he has other abilities than Kuririn given by birth already.

    Natsu wasn't born as Dragon Slayer, nor as one that is able only to eat fire. As the manga explained, he's a human born in Earthland with a gift to use magic. And one of the few mages to be taught by a Dragon the Lost Magic called Dragon Slayer.

    And of course, Natsu could only learn to eat fire as Igneel is a dragon spitting fire. That did never mean that Natsu wouldn't be able to use what he learned there to swallow and extract magical energy of other elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    This isn't theory, all we need is some explanations and better story telling.
    The way of explanations that doesn't completely turn down your "fuel" theory on elements? Won't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Jealousy of what ? What are you talking about ?
    You came up with asking characters being better than others only for the reason you just can't stand Natsu and Gajeel eating other elements. Like you came up with Gajeel being weak for "being an S-rank candidate" and then suddenly forget about that in your last post. If you can't remember your own flaws, please read your own posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    What happened to all that crap about "There is no room for more the one Dragon in the sky" - Gajeel and Natsu.
    So you don't want no character development anymore? Those were Gajeel's words only, not Natsu's. Natsu defeated Gajeel afterwards, and after some time and thinking about his situation, Gajeel started becoming a less big-mouthed ratfink, joined Fairy Tail, defended the ones he once harrassed and even sided with his rival in battle.

    Thanks for proving their rivalty from Gajeel's point of view btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Out of character ? Then explain to me, why he suddenly became a genius in here : http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/295/24
    So much like his character, is it not ?
    You mean as suddenly as when he got through Zardi/Ulltear's defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    He didn't learn anything. He's just randomly eating stuff. Like "Oh hey, I can eat Eitherion...That must mean I can eat lightning too." How would someone come up with such a conclusion ?
    Let me just guess here. Probably by experiencing a massive power boost and by not having too grave side effects after winning the fight? Even the dumbest characters should get behind the trick...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    The hero in other manga don't get RANDOM power ups. The term random, refers to an unexplained or out of nowhere power up.
    Would you finally care to READ the parts I've been showing to you in our conversation so far to point out that you are WRONG on Natsu getting "random power ups" because he eats other elements?! They only are because you take a wrong "fuel" theory as a basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Who said Ichigo is better than Kenpachi ?
    Well, you started comparing characters in terms of being better than others. I've explained but you decided to ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    No. The don't lose and just come back. They train, they grow, then they come back. When Ichigo lost to Grimmijow he went to train, become a lot stronger and challenged him again.
    Like he lost to Byakuya, Aizen before hand, Ulquiorra and Ginjou afterwards, pulled a miracle special training and came back to overpower them ... How "unrepetitive" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Did you even read the CP9 saga ? Luffy himself stated that his loss against Aokiji was what motivated him to train and develop gear 2 and 3. It was what opened his eyes to how weak he is. When he lost to Crocodile, he kept using his mind and still needed a lot of help.
    Developing new techniques or finding out his opponent's weakness isn't anything that made Luffy's character grow. He stayed stubborn while still rushing things, not listening to important intel, just looking for his great adventure - he just became physically stronger while his careless behaviour didn't change at all.

    Compare yourself his fights against Krieg and the New Fishman Pirates' army. You'll find him pulling some ridiculous move while smiling... His losses didn't change him characterwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    So far, you've done nothing but give the most useless of excuses to defend Natsu and the series...
    For real? So, fine then. As much as I enjoyed our chat here: If you you stick on constantly denying facts from the manga and story telling basics, while insisting on a theory that doesn't fit to what the manga showed by picture and explained by dialogue so far - than just keep saying how bad Fairy Tail is.

    Apparently bringing up "repetitive" plot schemes to power up characters of other series is useless as well, as you also misinterpret the power ups shown there. You even keep mixing up "character development/growth" with training to develop physical strength and new techniques, which is just plain nonsense.
    Last edited by hoeru; March 16, 2013 at 03:49 PM. Reason: typo

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