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Translations: Gintama 515 (2)
When we look at this arc the Quincy are absolutely smashing the shinigami. Sure they didn't completely destroy the place but they came pretty close killing a ton of SS residents.
When we look at the fight with Yama he lost but Bach pointed to him growing weak with time.
Could this have been the case for the entire Soul Society and thus be the reason why it didn't hold it's ground? Even the lesser of the Quincy army absolutely ran over the shinigamis and I am trying to figure out if the Vandenreich grew in heaps and bounds or if the Shinigamis became weak.
To add a variable here I was thinknig about how early on the Bankai was introduced, this is supposed to be the ace up the sleve of any elite level shinigami and it got beaten over and over by Ichigo.
Ichigo is a very strong character no doubt but even now at the level he has achieved even he was no match for the guy that at best is the number two guy of the Quincys. Back then he was far from where he is now.
These guys were once wiped out by Soul Society.
Did times of peace and lack of a real challenge dull their blades to the point that the Quincy really didn't become a lot stronger, SS just became a lot weaker?
I know the medalions play a part in the game too but that is why I brought up the lowbies of the two groups, I just don't see them getting mauled like that in the old days when war was around the corner or taking place.
Also if this is true, doesn't that leave a looooot of room to improve the current Soul Society roster?
Well, juhabach pointed out yamamoto had grown weaker but I don't think he meant it in terms of power but rather mentality. From juhabach's description it seems that when yamamoto fought he entered to a "not shits can be given" mode and simply cross any line imaginable if it would get him a victory. In turn because of pride yamamoto made a few decisions which can be considered questionable in the heat of battle even if they were indeed important. I can agree with yamamoto ordering unohana to not heal people during the battle but was it necessary to keep her back? Perhaps it is an in hindsight argument but unohana could have easily trashed a few stern rittern and she does not even need bankai for that. Of course there is the arm thing which yamamoto could have taken care of easily.
There is also the consideration that what batch said can easily be considered to be a gross exageration. Was vandenreich really that powerful? Surely they are enemies worth fearing but outside of yamamoto not a single captain died and not a single one of them could even use bankai. More so, 6 stern rittern died while no captain died. Ultimately the sole reason the war took the current turn of events was because the stern rittern could steal bankai. The quincy basically bet it all on that single weapon. Right now the shinigami are in a bad position because yamamoto is gone mostly for that matter but the same would happen to any other organization in bleach who loses their leader.
Ultimately I would argue that shinigami weren't weak, they just had to deal with the unprecedented threat of bankai stealing. The badge literally reduces the combat capacity of a shinigami by 90%. And still no regular captain died during the invasion.
But if we look past the medalions even the bottom tiers were bashed by the Vandenreich bottom tiers. They were heavily outclassed.
Yes it seems that Yamas mentality was what juha had in mind but that mentality also translates into leadership and that leadership might in turn have weakened the rest of the Shinigami.
Before this attack the only real challenge for Soul Society was Ichigo it seems as nothing of worht has been mentioned between the Shinigami and Quincy war and the attack from Ichigo and friends.
True, the buttom tier did get their ass handed to them but to be fair we still don't know what exactly the soldat were. They were wearing a mask and if I recall they did not particular display any sort of emotion or exhibit quincy abilities... there could be more to those guys. Even then, the soldat overpowering shinigami militia is at large irrelevant. The militia of neither side could never hope to have an effect on the outcome of the war to begin with, the war is decided by the couple dozen warriors of either side that have some measure of power.
Maybe the current gotei 13 was not as strong as the original G13 however based on what we have seen the only foundation for juhabach's words is the medal which steal bankai. Vandenreich fought a G13 with 90% of its power reduced and still all of the captains safe for yamamoto survived. And I doubt it is yamamoto's fault the current G13 was not as strong as the original. Who knows what has happened to the original members to begin with and yamamoto at large has little control over how strong a captain can become. Unohana was a criminal and a murderer, zakaki was an anomaly, hitsugaya was born awesome.... Just right there you have 25% being there completely outside of anyone's control. The original GT was seemingly formed from a bunch of random murderous assholes even though that the academy had existed for 1000 years by then.
Another factor in the complete and utter defeat of SS was the severe psychological disadvantage throughout. Most captains were too afraid focused on the bankai-stealing aspect that they weren't really able to put up much of a fight. The lower-tier shinigamis were probably too shook by the fact that their capptains were being beaten so baly that it must have affected the outcome.
Then there's also the question of compatibility, or the lack thereof in this case. Hitsugaya, for example, is rather inexperienced and young. He relies heavily on his Zanpaktou's massive abilities. If that is taken away from him, he's a lot weaker than other captains because he doesn't have as much experience in sword fighting. Byakuya is similar. His arrogaance has consistently showed that he expects to defeat any and all enemies as long as he just throws around some senbonzakura. Other than his speed, he isn't much without those powers.
If we compare them to Unohana for example, she would , she would probably have been able to take out a few of the Sternritters even if her bankai had been stolen (probably wouldn't even have used it).
All in all, I'd say SS lost because they were tactically outmatched.
Well, SS goes as far as the captains go in terms of power and we already know that the first generation's power is unparalleled, so, it's not questionable that SS got weaker over the time. Peaceful times taking over the bloody battlefields also had some sort of effect on that, as pointed out by Bach. That wasn't just an effect left on Captain-Commander himself, but also, his up and coming subordinates also felt that change in the daily life.
Last edited by Azuma; March 08, 2013 at 06:18 PM.
Unohana is different, swordmanship is her sole deal to the point where it alone basically has the power of a bankai. Of course minazuki would make a difference however it does not change that her deal is solely swordfighting.
All in all, I've been hoping there'd be some more battles where there'd be a bigger reliance on tactics and not simply brute force. So far, it's more or less only been Urahara and Mayuri that have actually bothered to use their heads.
I thought the quincy had the best way of fighting hollows and the shinigami - basically anything with reiatsu (?). Wasn't this one of the reasons why they were able to have an advantage over the shinigami.
I'm not sure if you can say Soul Society grew weaker, though. I think they did, but what if SS back then relied on bankai as well, maybe more heavily than the current SS?
I am not sure I understand your first two lines...
Anyways, a big part of the consideration here should be that vandenreich also grew stronger. In the past they had the letz stilt, an enormous but unstable power which permanently crippled quincy. Today they have the volstandig which does not cause their powers to vanish and can be used for a long time. Then there is also the blue flame thing whose importance perhaps has yet to be discussed. As far as quincy are concerned the blue flame means they can fight with an atmosphere saturated -and maybe over saturated- with reishi. I guess in the context of the thread this point would depend on whether they had it in the past though.
In the past the shinigami would have fought with their bankai, a stable enormous power, against the quincy's final form. As far as a shinigami is concerned once the final form is activated the battle is one for time. Even if the quincy in question had an advantage in terms of power thanks to his final form the issue is that shinigami did not have to win the fight to win. They simply had to stall it for several minutes until the form ran out. At that point the quincy in question would be fodder at large.
He's talking about spirit particle usage for the Quincy, I guess, as in Letzt Stil and other Quincy techniques.
Regarding your assessment, I'm not sure if Volstandig isn't fragile after a certain usage rate. That would explain why the Quincy never went all out in the first attack wave against SS captains. Though, just because it's convenient for the story development doesn't mean it holds truth, as well.
Looking at the most recent chapters I would definitely say Soul Society got weaker, and mainly because of Aizen. He is responsible for a number of Captains abandoning their posts. Imagine if all of the Vizards had never left Soul Society. Imagine if Urahara, Yoruchi, Isshin, and Tessai still had their position as Captains. Soifon, Hitsugaya, Komamura, and Hacchi would probably be Vice Captains.
I doubt a Gotei 13 with members as strong and experienced as that would have gotten dominated like they did.
Last edited by Cyber34; April 05, 2013 at 06:12 AM.