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Thread: Theories about hate

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Brother Coa's Avatar
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    Theories about hate

    We have all read chapter 136 and know Daae's theory about hate, with basically goes down to the more the hate the stronger the warrior.

    So my question for this would be: what if Daae's wrong? What if hate is not the only thing that defines the strenght of warrior?

    Post your theories about this issue here and discuss.

    It is my opinion that he is wrong, while his theory has some sense there are some plot holes created by this theory. That and even Daae himself is not sure if his theory is correct saying "I think" or "let us say that", he made up that theory with the info that he had at the meantime. And as we know there is ton of things that neither Daae nor Organisation itself knew ( one of them being Ghosts half-awakened state ).

    So what is your opinion on this matter?
    Last edited by Brother Coa; March 10, 2013 at 04:27 PM.
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Claymore is about the philosophy of Freidrich Nietzsche so the better word would be resentment rather than hate.

    Resentment can either drag you back into an abyss, or drive you to overcome.

    What is the exact Nihongo used by Yagi himself for what is being scanslated as 'hate'?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member claremore's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Quote:
    Claymore is about the philosophy of Freidrich Nietzsche
    This is factual, or an interpretation?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by claremore View Post
    This is factual, or an interpretation?
    It's not the official word of god, but it is explicit throughout with the references to Awakened Ones and the Abyss isn't it?

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    Re: Theories about hate

    ^ I'd like to know too. So Yagi hasn't expressly stated anything?

    Outside of that it would seem like an interpretation, maybe references to ressentiment and overman, but perhaps not other important ideas of his like nihilism, affirmation & eternal return.

    On the idea of 'hate' I think the explanations of Goral & GEG in the predictions thread were quite good. It might be the case that Daae is wrong, but if he is, it would be left to argue why his theory was placed in the manga, at this stage, at all. I'm personally not sure whether the notion of hate is intended to totalize the measure of strength and ability, like you as well, but think maybe that he was identifying a correlation between some phenomenon he called hate and the strength of a claymore. in that sense it would be only one factor (albeit a potent one) among others.

    it could turn out that he was acceptably wrong, something of plot along the lines of 'I thought it was hatred, and I can see now why I thought that, but in fact it is....'

    Edit: and also, surely this isn't the last Daae will speak of it, so maybe we don't have enough info to properly draw any inferences yet
    Last edited by Urfaust; March 11, 2013 at 03:40 AM.

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    Re: Theories about hate

    let us agree on one point right now though. this was Dae's Theory about how it works. he is obviously missing some point to it allcause if it was insanity, or insane hate, and resentment alone that was needed, then Ophelia would be even more powerful. she was so nutty she did not even realize she awoke because she didn't feel any different.

    however let us now think as dae. dae was a man who has spent msot of his life cutting open little girls and implanting demonic tissue into their bodies, and watching them fight and die. he also keeps the bodies of the stronger warriors in his chambers as well, the sick fuck. so he would not have a total understanding of a human condition.

    however he can see hatred. he can see and determine that a candidates hatred and resentment of yoma can drive her to become even stronger, and see that the more malicious and dark of the candidates grew into considerably more powerful claymore and thsu awakened.

    Let us nip it in the bumb now. Priscilla is NOT powered by hate. it is obvious that the awakened beings and claymore very bodies are affected far more by their mentality than the tissue implanted, and the tissue becomes the medium. Dae's experimentation showed that those with the more deranged outlooks are the ones who become the most powerful generally, albeit not exclusively.
    also note that Kindness is not gonna kill her. considering a few humans attempted to be kind to her once, and she ate their guts are mach6.

    however hate alone cannot be the sole factor though. ophelia not being a demonic goddess is a sure sign of that. and then there is Teresa. to this day people argue who was more powerful between the two, though i go by what i saw; teresa overpowered a nearly awakened priscilla at only ten percent of her own power, and one could roughly estimate that priscilla would have been at the level fo power of an abyssal at that state. and teresa only died because she let her guard down for an instant.

    so it shows that even if the hatred dies down and the outlook brightens, with teresa becoming attached to clare and loving her as a sister/daughter, that the power far from decreases. her raw power was as great as ever, its just that she hesitated and priscilla was utterly unpredictable as her mentality broke down.

    what i did find fairly interesting is that he stated that it seems to be more tha claymore themselves, at least by his observations, that affect it than the implants. it makes me wonder more what exactly is implanted, a subject that is contiuing to fascinate and frustrate.
    basically they say the flesh and blood is implanted of a yoma...... well it turns out a yoma is not the man eater but a parasite. felsh a blood could refer to anything really, the question is if that flesh is living.

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    Re: Theories about hate

    ^ some thoughts

    1) there may be a difference between how much hate a claymore has and how well they can use it (on the assumption that they do). Ophelia's tissue maybe is very inefficient, while Teresa's is highly efficient. in this case then Ophelia would not be that strong.

    2) the role that hate plays may be condensed down only to transformations or the transformation process when the girls first become claymores. it might be that hate is the catalyst for better transformations. At the point where Priscilla awakened, she was at the peak of turmoil, and this made her awaken into a monster. The Org may have engineered the situation in which Priscilla awakened - knowing that she was unstable and sending her after Teresa. Clare perhaps didn't have a good claymore transformation because of how painful/stressful it was as shown in the first chapters (this is a bit questionable). But the Org would want to keep her around if they know the circumstances in which she wanted to become a claymore, because those circumstances might lead to a powerful awakened being.

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner lies's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    It is not surprising that the humans should bear a grudge against the yoma, but that is no reason for blaming the yoma for taking the humans. And when the humans say among themselves, "These yoma are evil, and he who least resembles a yoma, who is rather its opposite, a human,—should he not be good?" then there is nothing to carp with in this ideal's establishment, though the yoma may regard it a little mockingly, and maybe say to themselves, "We bear no grudge against them, these good humans, we even love them: nothing is tastier than a tender human."

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by Urfaust View Post
    ^ I'd like to know too. So Yagi hasn't expressly stated anything?

    Outside of that it would seem like an interpretation, maybe references to ressentiment and overman, but perhaps not other important ideas of his like nihilism, affirmation & eternal return.
    Well your mileage may vary but certain references are explicit.

    ---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lies View Post
    It is not surprising that the humans should bear a grudge against the yoma, but that is no reason for blaming the yoma for taking the humans. And when the humans say among themselves, "These yoma are evil, and he who least resembles a yoma, who is rather its opposite, a human,—should he not be good?" then there is nothing to carp with in this ideal's establishment, though the yoma may regard it a little mockingly, and maybe say to themselves, "We bear no grudge against them, these good humans, we even love them: nothing is tastier than a tender human."
    Yea, precisely. I prefer the most tender humans too.

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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by faintsmile1992 View Post
    Well your mileage may vary but certain references are explicit.
    The more I think about it, the less I feel that a Nietzschean reading of Claymore is accurate though. Limiting this post to what is on topic, an important part of ressentiment is (as I understand it, mostly through the interpretations of Blanchot in The Infinite Conversation and Klossowski in Such a Deathly Desire) directed an an authority who constricts a person's ability to give adequate expression to themselves, thereby choking that person's passion to engage with life, which becomes condensed and focused into a violent upsurge that destroys any restrictions (the famous example being the absolute authority of God, but one other example being German culture), and this leads to the state of the overman (overperson). The overperson is 'happy' in the 'daytime' because they have the full possibility of life available to them then.

    So in that sense, attempting to do an interpretation:

    The Org is an authority who impose an unpleasant, constricted state on girls, who become claymores, and we are required to generalize this notion of ressentiment to them all, who want to break the bonds of the org and be free, and refuse the meaning the Org has given their lives. This must turn on Awakened being = overperson in order to be consistent with Nietzsche, otherwise it is simply a case of the age old dialectic between the person being used and the user, that is, in order to be Nietzschean, all claymores must think of Awakening as a good thing and want to do it, and 'affirm' it, affirm eating humans etc. This interpretation has some problems through, because it is difficult to generalize, and there aren't many instances of where this is the case. For instance not even Priscilla is completely this way.

    And in this sense, to be Nietzschean means to affirm being a monster, refusing even the standards of humans. But Claymore is not like that at all. Humanity is some measure of morality in Claymore, and there are continual critiques of where humans do not act like humans, and Claymores are more human etc.

    This is why I don't think a Nietzschean approach is a good one, because the point of departure for Nietzsche is too radical for Claymore's message. I think the real theme is simply how you deal with the circumstances you have been placed in, and where you put your energy. And the discussion between Irene and Clare is where Yagi makes the point: where you put your energy which is generated out of your (unpleasant in the case of all Claymores) circumstances determines those who should fight and continue on from those who should not. And this decision about the placement of energy is the assertion of a Claymore's own will, because the Org has generated that energy for the purpose of creating powerful awakened beings, but a Claymore is able to take it and use it for another purpose, in the typical manga style of protecting/defending/helping those they love.

    The above paragraph is far more Hegelian than Nietzschean, IMO. The Nietzchean aspect (ressentiment) he got from Hegel, too.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member faintsmile1992's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by Urfaust View Post
    The more I think about it, the less I feel that a Nietzschean reading of Claymore is accurate though. Limiting this post to what is on topic, an important part of ressentiment is (as I understand it, mostly through the interpretations of Blanchot in The Infinite Conversation and Klossowski in Such a Deathly Desire) directed an an authority who constricts a person's ability to give adequate expression to themselves, thereby choking that person's passion to engage with life, which becomes condensed and focused into a violent upsurge that destroys any restrictions (the famous example being the absolute authority of God, but one other example being German culture), and this leads to the state of the overman (overperson). The overperson is 'happy' in the 'daytime' because they have the full possibility of life available to them then.
    That is pretty much my point.

    Quote Quote:
    And in this sense, to be Nietzschean means to affirm being a monster, refusing even the standards of humans. But Claymore is not like that at all. Humanity is some measure of morality in Claymore, and there are continual critiques of where humans do not act like humans, and Claymores are more human etc.
    Therein is itself a Nietzschean theme if youki is the supposedly 'inhuman' aspect of human nature that humans externalise. Nietzcshe wrote at around the same time as science was eroding the idea of human uniqueness. People are their bodies but they fight and reject the power in their bodies. They are no different to the youma because as Teresa pointed out they are no different (maybe its what Yagi was stressing by revealing the Youma as infected humans after all).

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    Re: Theories about hate

    My theory is that the hatred that Dae mentioned actually fuels the person's Yoki, if they are offensive, rather than the Claymore's final power.
    Why?
    Take a look at some databook rankings;
    Ophelia with A rank Yoki, Priscilla with A+ Yoki (no coincidence?), Teresa with S Yoki, Clare with falsely ranked Yoki, but probably around A or so by now.
    Even the fact that Clare's Yoki changes from a measly E-C region into some probable top tier level supports the fact that there is SOMETHING behind that change.
    And what is it? Her hatred. She wants to kill Priscilla even more now.

    We also should consider that Yoki is the most important factor to a Claymore; it fuels all the other attributes.
    It's quite obvious that a Claymore with a superb Yoki ranking, A or so, can use it to momentarily boost all their offensive abilities (as well as defensive) beyond that of normal training can ever accomplish.
    It's also quite important how offensive/defensive factors in with hatred.
    I assume hatred fuels offensive attributes for offensive warriors, but how does defense factor into it?
    Perhaps it's increased regeneration abilities.
    We know for one that Priscilla had a pretty traumatic past, and even though she is an offensive warrior, her AB form regeneration rate cannot be compared to anything of that level.
    Is Priscilla being defensive in the fact that she's holding back herself from remembering her past/trying to?

    So if we go with that theory, if she remembers her past, maybe her regenerative abilities will disappear.

    Finally, it's important to remember that Dae directly says, "but if we ASSUME that what looks like regeneration is in fact the embodiment of Priscilla's hatred that is boiling over from inside".
    This led me to suspect that the hatred is actually granting Priscilla a new ability that she would not have had without it; the physical existence and form of the essence coined to be "hatred" is what her body is composed of; and thus since Priscilla embodies such an endless amount of "hatred", the immediate regeneration of her body and limbs are possible.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member number12michael's Avatar
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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by Whirlzap View Post
    My theory is that the hatred that Dae mentioned actually fuels the person's Yoki, if they are offensive, rather than the Claymore's final power.
    Why?
    Take a look at some databook rankings;
    Ophelia with A rank Yoki, Priscilla with A+ Yoki (no coincidence?), Teresa with S Yoki, Clare with falsely ranked Yoki, but probably around A or so by now.
    Even the fact that Clare's Yoki changes from a measly E-C region into some probable top tier level supports the fact that there is SOMETHING behind that change.
    And what is it? Her hatred. She wants to kill Priscilla even more now.

    We also should consider that Yoki is the most important factor to a Claymore; it fuels all the other attributes.
    It's quite obvious that a Claymore with a superb Yoki ranking, A or so, can use it to momentarily boost all their offensive abilities (as well as defensive) beyond that of normal training can ever accomplish.
    It's also quite important how offensive/defensive factors in with hatred.
    I assume hatred fuels offensive attributes for offensive warriors, but how does defense factor into it?
    Perhaps it's increased regeneration abilities.
    We know for one that Priscilla had a pretty traumatic past, and even though she is an offensive warrior, her AB form regeneration rate cannot be compared to anything of that level.
    Is Priscilla being defensive in the fact that she's holding back herself from remembering her past/trying to?

    So if we go with that theory, if she remembers her past, maybe her regenerative abilities will disappear.

    Finally, it's important to remember that Dae directly says, "but if we ASSUME that what looks like regeneration is in fact the embodiment of Priscilla's hatred that is boiling over from inside".
    This led me to suspect that the hatred is actually granting Priscilla a new ability that she would not have had without it; the physical existence and form of the essence coined to be "hatred" is what her body is composed of; and thus since Priscilla embodies such an endless amount of "hatred", the immediate regeneration of her body and limbs are possible.
    But something cant be "limitless" she would have to eventually run out of that power.

    And is this something that can only be gained during the transformation or is it gained upon awakening?.....like the Ghosts all have "the strength of a single digit" if thats true then was it their "hate" for Isely that made them grow strong over the 7 years?
    "Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by number12michael View Post
    But something cant be "limitless" she would have to eventually run out of that power.

    And is this something that can only be gained during the transformation or is it gained upon awakening?.....like the Ghosts all have "the strength of a single digit" if thats true then was it their "hate" for Isely that made them grow strong over the 7 years?
    I think strength of a single digit generally meant their overall strength (without the Yoki booster).
    I think their overall attributes increased greatly, but I'm a bit vague on how their Yoki could have increased.
    I guess the hate for the AB that killed all their dead comrades that they cared for propelled their Yoki and training.
    I mean, Deneve remembered Undine, Helen someone, Miria everyone that her plan failed for, Clare for Flora and Jean, etc etc

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    Re: Theories about hate

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
    We have all read chapter 136 and know Daae's theory about hate, with basically goes down to the more the hate the stronger the warrior.

    So my question for this would be: what if Daae's wrong? What if hate is not the only thing that defines the strenght of warrior?

    Post your theories about this issue here and discuss.

    It is my opinion that he is wrong, while his theory has some sense there are some plot holes created by this theory. That and even Daae himself is not sure if his theory is correct saying "I think" or "let us say that", he made up that theory with the info that he had at the meantime. And as we know there is ton of things that neither Daae nor Organisation itself knew ( one of them being Ghosts half-awakened state ).

    So what is your opinion on this matter?
    well i think the power of yoki is based on something more akin to genetic memory. i think humans have the ability to tap into the yoki via focusing their emotions. the more the emotion is felt the more the power can be tapped into. however, this has its own holes as well. basically the quality of the yoki is based on the two dragon kins flesh. its also based on how the dragons kins flesh communicates with its host. so if you took some flesh from say the muscle of a dragon kin. i would assume it would give a more physical boost. now if you took some from their brains, you might get more yoki control. if you took it from their liver maybe youd get more regenerative powers. this is my theory on things.

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