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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #1141
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    No it isn't. Time is controlled in Sasuke's genjutsu as well, though on a much shorter scale. The only thing he cannot control are physical sensations which Itachi can.
    Danzo already said that Sasuke's Genjutsu can't control time.

  2. #1142
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Itachi transferred his trap Amaterasu to Sasuke and that was it. He didn't transfer all his powers, that much was obvious from the beginning.

    They share so much because they are brothers and both Uchiha's. It would make sense that to gain EMS you would need to replace your eyes with your siblings eyes because they are similar. It probably would not work with any run of the mill Uchiha.
    No. That was way after the trap was addressed. Tobi states ALL his eye techs, like in PLURAL. This is not about the TRAP. Trap is one, single. No all techs. Huge diference from All techs to set a trap.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    No it isn't. Time is controlled in Sasuke's genjutsu as well, though on a much shorter scale. The only thing he cannot control are physical sensations which Itachi can.

    Itachi never transferred Amaterasu to Sasuke; it was just a trap set for Obito. I have zero clue how people still believe this.
    Neah he can't:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/478/3
    (and another translation)
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-44811-...apter-478.html
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/480/4

    It was made clear by both Danzo and Tobi that he CAN'T.

    As for the second part... I am just linking what TOBI SAID. If you think you know better then Tobi then whatever...

  3. #1143
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    "Perception of time at his whim..". This part disproves me? Yeah, okay. This sentence actually connects 'time' with 'whim', meaning he can prolong the effects of Perception of time to whichever extend he wanted to. In no way does this scan mention that 'time' is not controlled by Sasuke, which by the way, is an abstraction and has plenty of dimensions.

    @Xxan You people must have really poor comprehension skills. 'Perception of time' meaning Time based on user's reality Versus 'Time and Space' altered by Sasuke with his genjutsu. See the difference? Once reality is altered for perception, time is automatically altered, as the space viewed by the opponent is different. The only thing Sasuke cannot do, is extend it outside the bounds of the affected individual's perception.

    Sasuke can control the perception as well, but another thing he cannot control is sensations.

    No I can voice it better than Tobi. Meh

  4. #1144
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    "Perception of time at his whim..". This part disproves me? Yeah, okay. This sentence actually connects 'time' with 'whim', meaning he can prolong the effects of Perception of time to whichever extend he wanted to. In no way does this scan mention that 'time' is not controlled by Sasuke, which by the way, is an abstraction and has plenty of dimensions.
    How about the "Where he could alter the perception of time at his whim" part ?

    That alone should prove that Sasuke can't do the same.

  5. #1145
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member hawaplop's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Didn't sasuke use tsukiyomi against bee?
    And Danzou....even though it was short and pathetic compared to Itachi, as Danzou stated himself....
    I do kinda agree though, that Sasuke has offensive and defensive amaterasu (enton)...but he def used tsukiyomi twice....weird...

    And to the person who started this thread, not that it really matters, but Obito stole Madara's left rinnegan eye, not right....I dont know if you were talking hypothetically IF he took Madara's right eye or not..
    BUT I was under the impression only people who originally owned the eye could regress it back to a lesser form...

    Like how Kakashi cant change back to a regular eye, how Ao cant change his byakugan to a reg eye, danzou either....i doubt obito could change the rinnegan eye back to a sharingan or ems eye, or reg eye either..i mean you did say tuskiyomi controls time...well sasuke controlled time with Danzou, if even for just a few seconds..which is why it worked bc danzou stated it was so shitty compared to itachis when he tried using a longer tsukiyomi.
    ---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    @Sanadan


    He used genjutsu, MS active but genjutsu and nothing more (not Tsukiyomi). Its no diferent then what he does here:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/585/12

    Its a genjutsu but casted trough MS/EMS eyes. Its a sharingan genjutsu and in no way a Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi has the ability to control time, its a base factor of said genjutsu. Remove the base (time control) and its no longer Tsukiyomi... No diferent then claiming Sasuke has Kotoamatsukami but only way, way weaker to the point he can't control shit (like Shisui). He himself states "sharingan genjutsu" because that it was it is, a normal regular genjutsu but chaneled trough his powerfull eyes. Powerfull yes but its NOT Tsukiyomi as it missing the most fundamental part of said genjutsu, the ability to control time.
    Unless the translation was wrong in both chapters, i def remember it saying sasuke used tsukiyomi vs KB when he used the bijuu chakra to break it and Danzou when he tricked Danzou into thinking his izanagi still had a few seconds left when Sasuke stabbed him with his sword...

    Ill admit after rereading the chapter, that it can be interpreted that it is either a regular or tsukiyomi, but because Tobi says its not as good as Itachis, but he mentions that its not as good because of how short it is and that it would only be effective when using it at the right time.
    I dunno, imo i interpret it as Sasuke using a shitty tsukiyomi that is really short and not very effective unless he used it the way he did vs danzou. I dont know why else tobi would mention the length of it if it wasnt in fact a tsukiyomi and he never says its a regular genjutsu, just calls it a weak genjutsu, and tsukiyomi is a genjutsu. I dont see why they had the need to compare it to itachi if it wasnt a tsukiyomi....and wtf is the point of blasting a closeup of sasukes eye going from regular based sharingan to his MS right before he casts it on danzou if its not a tsukiyomi......

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/5.html

    In ur link, itachi and sasuke are already using susanoo though, so their eyes arent changing from three tomoe sharingan to MS and EMS....sasuke merely just used a Genjutsu to help break itachi out of a genjutsu while his eyes were already in EMS..

    A lot of this is weird...sasuke left eye that becomes itachis MS design, uses amaterasu on tobi, yet itachis left eye uses tsukiyomi and right amaterasu...and sasuke the opposite...

    His MS genjutsu does look a lot like tsukiyomi though

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v45/c413/9.html

    Then here he is seen grabbing his left eye after using an MS genjutsu

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v49/c462/7.html

    It really makes no sense, ive always been confused how he has 3 jutsu with two eyes, using MS genjutsus with both eyes making them bleed.

    Narutopedia does say Sasuke has tsukiyomi, i dunno how official that website is though

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v44/c408/3.html

    Uses his right eye there....

    Ultimately...i believe:

    Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, it not something standard, it depends on how the user wants to use it. Sasuke has it, and the only problem is that he doesn't have complete control over it, unlike Itachi.
    Put it another way: Sasuke has more control over Amaterasu (he did create/learn/get Blaze release) which is something Itachi doesn't have even though he has Amaterasu. And Itachi on the other hand is more proficient with genjutsu, so much that he can actually control time within his tsukuyomi, Something Sasuke can't do, he also can't keep it active for a long period.

    So just because he doesn't use it so often (it doesn't suit his style, he was never a genjutsu fighter to begin with, unlike Itachi who uses it on a regualr basis) doesn't mean he doesn't have it.
    Proof:
    1.Since he got MS all the genjutsu he used were MS genjutsus, never once did he use a genjutsu with the regular sharingan.
    2.His eye bleeds whenever he uses Genjutsu.
    3.It says clearly in the aatabook (written by Kishi) that in order to use Susanoo one must have both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. (sorry i don't have the link to the page, but i hope someone comes who actually has it)

    And just where does it say in the Manga that Tsukuyomi controls time? Yea Itachi can do it, but there is no proof that it is something standard. Itachi can do it because he is a genjutsu master, and using it so many time, as his basic fighting style it is only normal for him to be proficient with it.

    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...acters-12-misc)

    Under susanoo it says you need tsukiyomi...

    Pretty sure ive seen sasuke use enton with both eyes also....

    I cant picture Danzou being tricked by a non-tsukiyomi genjutsu when he was laughing at sasukes earlier genjutsu attempt....i think the level of tsukiyomi was the reason danzou didnt detect it, and it worked because it was so short that danzou didnt have enough time to think or realize he was in a genjutsu...tsukiyomi style

    The only time i remember sasukes eye bleeding after enton was the first time, otherwise when sasuke uses his right eye for enton after using his left for amaterasu, only his left eye bleeds, not his right....but his right eye bleeds after using genjutsu (tsukiyomi)...
    Leads me to believe his right eye not bleeding when using enton is because his left eye is taking the punishment and that is why both eyes are in MS when using enton so he uses his right to manipulate the flame, meaning hes not using his right MS for any type of power, just manipulating his left MS power...otherwise his eye should bleed everytime after using enton, since you are saying its a separate power entity....but i believe it to just be an addon power to the amaterasu...

    Anyone find any other time his right eye bleeds after enton?

    His right eye definitely does not bleed when using enton vs raikage, only his left eye bleeds from amaterasu during it.....now why would that be?
    Last edited by hawaplop; March 31, 2013 at 04:46 AM.

  6. #1146
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    In any case, it seems illogical that two brothers, Sasuke and Itachi in this case, would end up with the same eye techniques. If I'm not mistaken, Sasuke could also use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu before "taking" Itachi's eyes, in some magical way (Note: my previous post saying that the aforementioned techniques were Itachi's was supposed to include Sasuke as well). If the reason for this lies in their genetic make-up, then surely random variation should make it extremely improbable that they would have the exact same optical alleles? Unless we're dealing with some trait that is always passed along, then by extension, the parents should have that same allele and consequently, at least one of the eye techniques (if at worst, a maximum of one eye technique is passed from each parent). If we think back to the 'first' Uchiha, then there should only be two eye techniques, really. Based on the fact that Uchihas are practically carbon copies of each other (hell, even Izuna and Sasuke look alike, and they should be very distant relatives), there doesn't seem to be much variation in the genetic pool of the Uchiha.

    Seeing as Sasuke & Itachi had the same techniques, does that mean that Izuna and Madara had the same techniques too? And if their eyes are so similar in terms of abilities, why are the Mangekyou shapes so different? Did Kakashi activate his Mangekyou Sharingan because Obito activated his and they are somehow still linked even though they have been separated into two different bodies? If not, how come Kakashi's emotions affect the Sharingan in the exact same way as pure Uchihas? If it's the latter, doesn't that contradict with what Tobirama/Hashirama said about the Uchiha being genetically very emotional and that's why the Sharingan evolves? All of this is so poorly explained and flawed.
    Does anyone have an answer to any of the above questions?

  7. #1147
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    How about the "Where he could alter the perception of time at his whim" part ?

    That alone should prove that Sasuke can't do the same.
    Reread my post. Once space is altered, along with perception, the notions of 'time' is already altered as the reality is not subjective or individualistic any longer.

  8. #1148
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Does anyone have an answer to any of the above questions?
    1- Genetics in Naruto are like blackjack, you implant someone's parts in your body and either you gain that person's powers or you die gruesomely based on how rare such genetics are.

    Hashirama cells are 21, the Sharingan is a joker and the Byakugan is joker made harder to steal.

    2- Sasuke and Itachi don't have the same techniques, at least not on the same level and purpose. Itachi could pull a perfect Tsukuyomi whereas Sasuke could shape his flames into constructs like a new element.

    3- The Sharingan is a joker, it can do any sort of shit the author comes up with and to top that of there are plenty of them available for anyone who is Uchiha or has enough chakra to spam it.

    Honestly tough, the factor of the Sharingan's evolution is emotion, the Uchiha's are painfully more emotional than the average person but that doesn't mean someone normal like Kakashi could not feel enough grief to awaken the Mangekyou.

    I mean, for fucksake, if you shot your girlfriend in the face when your deceased best friend promised you to protect her how would you react? Anyone would have freaked out and went into comatose for weeks only to spent years in total delusional breakdown, no wonder Kakashi doesn't understand why Obito is so pissed off, his mind closed of that memory to preserve his own sanity.

    Heck, this why he survived Tsukuyomi in the first place. After killing Rin, Kakashi created so many emotional barriers whitin himself that years of time warped mind rape are not capable of digging into his mind and reaching the core of his being.

    I shudder to think how Kakashi will react when he remembers he was the one who killed Rin, it will be the most emotionally filled moment in the entire series.

  9. #1149
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Reread my post. Once space is altered, along with perception, the notions of 'time' is already altered as the reality is not subjective or individualistic any longer.
    That's your logic, not the manga's. According to Danzo who was caught in the Genjutsu. Sasuke is unable to alter one's perception of time. Meaning, he can't have them suffer for years in only a minute like Itachi or such.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; April 01, 2013 at 01:29 AM.

  10. #1150
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That's your logic, not the manga's. According to Danzo who was caught in the Genjutsu. Sasuke is unable to alter one's perception of time. Meaning, he can't have them suffer for years in only a minute like Itachi or such.
    Sakura? What the hell kind of manga are you reading?

  11. #1151
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    Sakura? What the hell kind of manga are you reading?
    Lulz. You still don't know ?

    I'm obviously reading Naruto.

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  13. #1152
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    That's your logic, not the manga's. According to Danzo who was caught in the Genjutsu. Sasuke is unable to alter one's perception of time. Meaning, he can't have them suffer for years in only a minute like Itachi or such.
    No, that's Manga's logic. You are obviously interpreting it as you please. Example: Danzo's eye was closed as it had out-lived its time for Izanagi but Sasuke prolonged the time for the eye in his illusion. Time was altered for reality and perception. What are you talking about? You obviously are thinking that time = the one on your clock.

    I don't even...

    ---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 AM ----------

    Suffer for years? Way to exaggerate it.
    Last edited by shahdan; April 02, 2013 at 02:55 PM.

  14. #1153
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    No, that's Manga's logic. You are obviously interpreting it as you please. Example: Danzo's eye was closed as it had out-lived its time for Izanagi but Sasuke prolonged the time for the eye in his illusion. Time was altered for reality and perception. What are you talking about? You obviously are thinking that time = the one on your clock.

    I don't even...
    Eh...no. Sasuke simply fooled Danzo into thinking the eye hasn't closed yet. That has nothing to do with him manipulating time. I'm not interpreting it as I please. How can I even do that ? There is like only one way to interpret it. He clearly said that Sasuke can't control time, unlike his brother. I don't know what's the deal with you anyway ?

    I don't remember if it was for years, months or days. But he did make him suffer for long time in a matter of seconds.

  15. #1154
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Eh...no. Sasuke simply fooled Danzo into thinking the eye hasn't closed yet. That has nothing to do with him manipulating time. I'm not interpreting it as I please. How can I even do that ? There is like only one way to interpret it. He clearly said that Sasuke can't control time, unlike his brother. I don't know what's the deal with you anyway ?

    I don't remember if it was for years, months or days. But he did make him suffer for long time in a matter of seconds.
    I don't know what's the deal with you, as you assume time = clock? Why are you continuing this discussion when I don't agree with you and you simply cannot grasp time as an abstraction?

  16. #1155
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I don't know what's the deal with you, as you assume time = clock? Why are you continuing this discussion when I don't agree with you and you simply cannot grasp time as an abstraction?
    And you think that your point > Manga ? Why are you continuing to argue when the manga directly stated that you're wrong ?

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