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Thread: Madara thread

  1. #1171
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Xiraiya's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Well were told that Sussano is a rarity. To unlock, according to Itachi, you need to unlock the other two eye techniques in Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

    I'd like to think that individually, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi aren't that rare, but to get them together is.

    What's strange to me is that Sasuke and Itachi (and probably Madara) are the only Uchiha's with MS to activate different kinds of powers in each eye. Both of Obito's eyes activated a Kamui variant, and both of Shusui's eyes activated a genjutsu variant.

    We have more questions than answers really, and we probably never will get the explanations we need.
    Well that's what I mean, Obito is a difficult one because of the missing eye, but Kamui is more useful than anything else, especially since Obito seems to have a somewhat minimalist fighting style centered around dodging. Shisui is far too unknown to really assume anything, considering his unique ability was incredibly useful and that's about as much purpose as he had.

    Who knows, Sasuke may yet unlock a new ability, but I'm doubting it as it seems like you need a unique dire circumstance to find it, Shisui's originated from his unique sharingan feature, Obito's originated from his "Death" or atleast that was the impression I got, it COULD be he had it all along but since his eyes are apparently linked in strange ways, I'm not entirely sure.

    Madara is still an unknown as I'm sure he didnt just sit by a tree for 80 years. Itachi probably never had the opportunity to discover any unique powers as he only ever used Tsukiyomi and his geared up Susano'o, much like how Sasuke only really uses Lightning, Amaterasu and Susano'o, but so far he's the best bet we have in learning exactly how the Jutsu system for MS/EMS works.

  2. #1172
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    No, there are exactly two ways of interpreting it, I spelled it out for you, it's not my fault that Japanese doesn't translate cleanly to English all the time. Which one you want to believe is up to you. I gave actual physical evidence to back up my own claim which I'll attempt to explain further.
    Whatever, okay. There are two ways of interpreting it. Fine.

    Quote Quote:
    Any genjutsu makes the user see stuff that isn't real, obviously. But time is being spent inside this particular jutsu. A significant amount of time. Look at what transpires in the panel, that isn't some kind of 1-5 second turn of events, it's longer than that.
    How do you know that ? All that happened was :

    Danzo : Uhg Itachi *Get's Amaterasued*

    And it's over! You're saying that this took more than 10 seconds ( 10 being generous. By Ninja standards, this should end in 3 seconds) ?

    Quote Quote:
    Really, there is no evidence Sasuke could close that gap in a second? It's called Shunshin no jutsu, get with the manga.

    Sasuke using at it 13

    Here we have Sasuke standing on a ledge.

    Then appearing right in front of Naruto, so fast even Yamato makes a comment.

    Re-read Sasuke v. Deidara. Here is Deidara commenting on how fast Sasuke is.

    Frankly, the notion that Sasuke can't close that small amount of ground in an instant, is laughable. This is why I am telling you that time did indeed pass in the genjutsu faster than time in the real world. Becuase there is no way it would take Sasuke however long the genjutsu lasted to get behind Danzo.
    I know that Sasuke is fast. It was my fault for not making myself clear.

    What I meant is, We don't know how long Danzo lasted in that Genjutsu. And we can't assume that he controlled time just because he's normally fast. This can be just for plot sake. Just like how Itachi can keep out with a Naruto that out paced Ee and crushed Kisame with a simple punch. And regardless of how long he did, or how fast is Sasuke. What Danzo said, confirmed that Sasuke can't (or didn't) control time.

    You can say that there are two ways of interpreting this. But that wouldn't matter. If we go by the first way you mentioned (which is very unlikely way to interpret it) and say that he used a different Genjutsu that can't control time. That would make your whole argument of speed and Shunshin, useless.

    If we go by the second way, that he used a weaker version of Tsukuyomi. Then it means I'm right and that Sasuke can't control time, because Danzo said he can't.

    So instead of going with this whole long discussion let's just accept what we've been told and not dive deep into small details (Sasuke won't need that long, Danzo seem to have spent too much time, etc..)

    It's all baseless, and with no obvious proof to support it. There isn't like a timer in the manga. Naruto had a long (really long) skirmish with Pain in only 5 seconds (when Pain was waiting for his Shinra Tensei to charge.) So what you may think is long, can be just few seconds. It's logical to assume that Danzo didn't spend more than 2 seconds in that Genjutsu.

  3. #1173
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    So instead of going with this whole long discussion let's just accept what we've been told and not dive deep into small details (Sasuke won't need that long, Danzo seem to have spent too much time, etc..)

    It's all baseless, and with no obvious proof to support it. There isn't like a timer in the manga. Naruto had a long (really long) skirmish with Pain in only 5 seconds (when Pain was waiting for his Shinra Tensei to charge.) So what you may think is long, can be just few seconds. It's logical to assume that Danzo didn't spend more than 2 seconds in that Genjutsu.
    I'm not going to accept anything, because Danzo's words seem to contradict what actually happened.

    Sasuke's speed should allow him to get to Danzo in an instant, as in the blink of an eye. There is no way, Danzo noticed he was in an illusion, suffered through it momentarily, and broke it in a span of what couldn't have been more than 2 or 3 seconds. I'm sorry, but no ninja has shown that kind of capability in terms of breaking genjutsu, not even Sharigan users like Itachi or Jinchuriki like Bee. For the scene to make sense, there has to be a time lapse in the genjutsu that is longer than that in the real world.

    You say there is no proof because you don't want to see things from my perspective. You already said there are two ways of interpreting Danzo's statement, which to me doesn't give much weight to your argument as to you saying that is why Sasuke can't control time, because in your interpretation Danzo says so. The idea that for plot's sake Sasuke didn't do what he always does is also very weak, although I won't discount it because the plot has "dumbed" characters down before (Your example with Itachi isn't a good one IMO, Itachi is fast enough and skilled enough to do what he did when going all out).

    We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #1174
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    Sakura? What the hell kind of manga are you reading?
    This is late, but I'm assuming he typed Sasuke and the forum changed it to Sakura.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Two ideas for this.

    1) Only the initial summoning of Amaterasu causes bleeding, additional use, or manipulation of pre-existing flames do not.

    2) Enton is not an MS jutsu. Once Amaterasu is summoned, Sasuke merely manipulates it like he would normal fire. Meaning, even if his MS is deactivated, if there is Amaterasu on the field of battle, Sasuke can manipulate it and use it.

    ---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------



    Tsukuyomi is so powerful not only because of the intensity of the illusion, but because of the users ability to control time within the illusion. If Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi, then he can control time within it. It just so happens he sucks balls at this compared to his brother, who can make 1 second feel like 24 hours. Sasuke only seemed to be able to make a second stretch into about a minute, if that.
    I don't think Sasuke was able to make time stretch at all. If you're talking about Danzou, he only made Danzou think the eye was still open, I don't think Danzou was counting at all. I dunno with Bee, but I doubt any time alteration happened.

  6. #1175
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I don't think Sasuke was able to make time stretch at all. If you're talking about Danzou, he only made Danzou think the eye was still open, I don't think Danzou was counting at all. I dunno with Bee, but I doubt any time alteration happened.
    The first genjutsu, not the one he actually fooled Danzou with. The illusion seemed to take longer than the events that transpired outside of it (Sasuke jumping behind Danzou and getting ready to stab him).
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  7. #1176
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    A counterargument you say ? Why ? I don't find myself obliged to to counter YOUR logic. This common philosophy and science you speak of, are useless. This is a manga (a supernatural manga to make it more delicious ), so it doesn't follow real world philosophy or science.

    It's not hard to understand. I fully get what you're trying to say. But I ignore it. Why ? Because it's a logic that doesn't fly in the manga. And to make it even worse, you're arguing against a direct statement! Danzo said he can't control time. So he can't control time. Is it too difficult to comprehend that ? Who's wasting the others time here ?
    Why quote me repeatedly then? It's a matter of interpretation. A fact you don't seem to grasp.

  8. #1177
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Why quote me repeatedly then? It's a matter of interpretation. A fact you don't seem to grasp.
    It's a matter of knowing when to quit. It has very little to do with interpretation.

  9. #1178
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It's a matter of knowing when to quit. It has very little to do with interpretation.
    You first; I get a little clingy over the interwebs. And FYI; it most certainly IS a matter of interpretation.

  10. #1179
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Madara has no Amaterasu and Obito has no Tsukuyomi.

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You first; I get a little clingy over the interwebs. And FYI; it most certainly IS a matter of interpretation.
    Well then I quit

  11. #1180
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member naruto the best's Avatar
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    Madara and Amaterasu

    What do you think would have happened had Madara have Amaterasu?

    Raikage has Black Lightning.
    Darui can do it.

    Itachi and Sasuke can do Black Fire.

    The very symbol of Uchiha is Fire and the main man who almost have everything from Rinnegan to Mokutun Uchiha Madara can't do the greatest fire form - Black Fire Amaterasu?

    Why can't he not do it when as the Uchiha's greatest senior he's supposed to do so?
    As he, Itachi and Sasuke can use Susanoo, wouldn't it much more of consistency had he shown Amaterasu?

  12. #1181
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member syx's Avatar
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    Re: Madara and Amaterasu

    MS Jutsus are awakened, not invented, learned/trained. A MS user can't decide what kind of power he awakens. Shisui had Kotoamatsukami, Obito has Kamui and Itachi had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo. Madara either didn't awaken Amaterasu or he didn't use it yet. It has nothing to do with Madara's skill, talent or him being the greatest Uchiha ever.

    Now that the Alliance got some huge firepower (Hokages, Orochimaru, Sasuke), odds are high that Madara will be forced to use his MS Jutsus. But it's up in the air if he has Amaterasu or not. If Madara in fact can use Amaterasu, you can be sure Kishi made him not using it for plot reasons. I mean, many of Madara's deadly AOE attacks can be countered one way or the other, since the Alliance have the time to react. But Amaterasu is nearly instant, so there is little to no room for the Alliance to counter that.

    As for Susanoo: It was never stated that you specifically need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. On the other hand it's implied that you just need two MS to use Susanoo.

    "madara: the sharingan manifest their real power when they are in a complete pair \\" [Ch. 602 - aegon-rokudo]
    Last edited by syx; May 21, 2013 at 01:12 PM.
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  14. #1182
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    Re: Madara and Amaterasu

    It's hard to say whether he has Amaterasu or not. If he does, then it would be quite the lark as Madara should have had the upper hand against wood, at least.

  15. #1183
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    Re: Madara and Amaterasu

    Quote Originally Posted by naruto the best View Post
    What do you think would have happened had Madara have Amaterasu?

    Raikage has Black Lightning.
    Darui can do it.

    Itachi and Sasuke can do Black Fire.

    The very symbol of Uchiha is Fire and the main man who almost have everything from Rinnegan to Mokutun Uchiha Madara can't do the greatest fire form - Black Fire Amaterasu?

    Why can't he not do it when as the Uchiha's greatest senior he's supposed to do so?
    As he, Itachi and Sasuke can use Susanoo, wouldn't it much more of consistency had he shown Amaterasu?
    No, it wouldn't be more consistent. MS Jutsus differ from one person to the next. Itachi and Sasuke both have Amaterasu, but that is most likely due to them being brothers and having a close resemblance in DNA. Had Kishimoto decided to show us Izuna and Madara's MS Jutsus, we would've been able to deduce if there's a pattern of simblings sharing similar powers. Sadly, he didn't.

    In any case, generally speaking, each MS User gets unique jutsu. Obito obtained Kamui and his other S/T jutsu, Shisui obtained Kotoamatsukami (and something else, probably), Itachi obtained Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Strangely, Sasuke has only shown Amaterasu thus far. He should have another one.

    Then there seems to be a number of MS Jutsus that anyone has the potential to use, such as Susano'o, Izanagi etc.

  16. #1184
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Madara and Amaterasu

    Actually Sasuke has Amaterasu because Itachi implanted it into him.

  17. #1185
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    Re: Madara and Amaterasu

    Quote Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
    Actually Sasuke has Amaterasu because Itachi implanted it into him.
    That's very doubtful. MS techniques can't be transmitted just like that, I believe. Itachi implanted it as a one time thing, not permanently. Otherwise, there was no need for Shisui to give Itachi an eye, he could've simply transmitted Kotoamatsukami to him.

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