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Thread: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

  1. #16
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    "In that battle." "During that fight."

    Means Hashirama took control of Kyuubi when he was fighting Madara, and then either he and Kyuubi fought Madara or he alone fought Madara for the remainder of the battle. Since it was never mentioned Mito sealed the Kyuubi in her AFTER the battle, there's no reason to assume she did in fact seal it after the battle.

    There's an obvious and clear difference between "in that battle" and "after the battle," and that page says that Hashirama took control IN the battle. It also fails to say Mito sealed the Kyuubi in her AFTER the battle.

    So yeah, anyone who says Hashirama took control of the Kyuubi after the battle or Mito sealed the Kyuubi in her after the battle has nothing to go by, now, unless Kishi decides to show the flashback fight in a different result than what happened.

    And we all know Kishi doesn't mind changing results or contradicting the manga.


    Also, don't bring up the Uchiha, especially when they have nothing to do with this thread. Just makes the argument even worse or more desperate.
    Last edited by M3J; March 14, 2013 at 01:36 AM.
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  2. #17
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    @M3J

    The way i see it we have 2 diferent parts of the sentence here:
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c500/5.html

    1 is obviously the fact that Hashirama gained control of Kurama in that fight, this is obviously as he defeated Madara and "captured" Kurama. Then to harness its power she sealed it inside of herself to become a jin. It is not defined at what point this happened. Some other translation have it with "to better aid him" but how to better aid him is not even specified. Can it be in battle? Village balance? Village power (9 tails jin big power there). Who knows.
    The first part of said sentence is defenetly in said battle, the second one is not specified.

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  4. #18
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    From the looks of it, he took away the control over Kyuubi from Madara durin the fight. Then we don't know what happened, Hashirama could have put it aside or used it to fight Madara, or Mito could have sealed it in her. THere was a translation somewhere where Kushina said Mito sealed the fox in her during the fight.

    How would village power or village balance would mean her becoming jinchuuriki would aid Hashirama? It'd have aided the village, not Hashirama unless he took her everywhere with him. It was most likely in battle, I don't know why it's so hard to consider or accept that possibility.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    @M3J

    Its not like we have long to w8. Before the curent flashback ends we are going to know how it was. I tend to belive the translation with "to better aid him" as i found the same thing on this forum to. I never got to see the translation where it is claimed its during the fight.

    Quote Quote:
    How would village power or village balance would mean her becoming jinchuuriki would aid Hashirama? It'd have aided the village, not Hashirama unless he took her everywhere with him. It was most likely in battle, I don't know why it's so hard to consider or accept that possibility.
    Are you joking? If she aids the village she aids Hashirama as he was the damn Hokage... Even having her as a deterrent and its a huge bonus for the village and considering Hashirama is PART of the village and the LEADER of the village.... Yeah... Even Bee was sitting inside the village just in case it was attacked. This is no diferent then real life Nuclear deterrent... I mean you think the only way to aid Hashirama is direcly in battle? Come on...

    Oh and i sugest you read what i posted again... Never did i claim its not possible or consider said possibility... I said we don't have the specifics and thus we don't know if it was during the battle or after.

    You made the claim that it was during the fight:

    Quote Quote:
    But Mito sealed the KYuubi in her during the fight, yet they were still equal.
    Then i pointed out how this is flawed as we don't know if she did or not. We don't have the specifics.

  6. #20
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Bee was sitting inside the village because Raikage was scared of losing Bee as well. It wasn't for the village, it was an excuse to keep Bee in a safe place. And yeah, the whole village thing makes no sense as Kushina could have said "to better aid the whole village" instead of just pointing Hashirama out. Considering he was best at controlling or restraining bijuu, I doubt Mito would have been necessary, especially considering the Kyuubi would have been better used freely.

    Yeah, considering the way it was phrased, and where it was phrased, it seems like the only way Mito could have aided Hashirama was in battle for many reasons, none of which makes Hashirama look any weaker, if that's what you're scared of.

    That's because it makes the most sense and is the least flawed. Why would Kushina say "in order to better aid him" right after saying Hashirama freed the Kyuubi? Why not just say "she sealed the Kyuubi after the fight?" And why just mention him, as if she was directly or only helping him out? Why not mention Konoha? More things point to Hashirama taking control of the Kyuubi and Mito sealing it in her durin the fight.


    But whatever, this is just another cycle of argument that'll be a waste of time until we get proof (if we do).
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  7. #21
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    @M3J

    It was not just an excuse. It was a good idea. He had long range projectile and in case of an attack he could do wonders. Of course part of it was also to protect his little bro but that is not all of it.

    She did what she did to better aid the man she loved and in turn the village. She protecting the village and acting as a deterrent would mean a better way to keep the man she loves allive. Hokages as you can see are the first to go in when the village is attacked... By preventing conflict she keeps the man she loves allive. Word play is not going to help your case here.

    We also don't know if Hashirama can control the biju like Madara can aka like a pet. He has abilities that can stop it dead in its tracks but can he control the biju like a pet and use it as a weapon? No indication as of now. It was said he can control biju's but control can be achived on mutiple scale. Control as a puppet is not showed as of now from Hashirama.

    No argument is flawed. She could have sealed it after the fight and be valid in protecting the man she loved and it could be during the fight and have the same effect. She joining the fight and protecting Hashirama from Madara or giving a boost to Hashirama and tip the scale of said fight because of an outside interferance has so little chanse of happening its not even funny. Madara and Hashirama needs to have said fight and end it between the 2 of them and i asure you we are going to know how said fight ends just after the kid flashback ends.

    Why did she choose the words she did? Multiple reasons 1 of them and the best one is for Kishi to keep us guesing. That is 1 of the things mangakas do.

    I really don't see the outcome of Hashirama grabing the Kyuubi from Madara and then Mio sealing it inside herself and interfering with said fight. That fight needs to end as a 1 vs 1. It could happen but man i would i be disapointed. Its like Naruto vs Sasuke at the end of the manga only for Sakura to but in and tip the scale...
    Last edited by xXan; March 14, 2013 at 04:54 AM.

  8. #22
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    The way i see it we have 2 diferent parts of the sentence here:
    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c500/5.html

    1 is obviously the fact that Hashirama gained control of Kurama in that fight, this is obviously as he defeated Madara and "captured" Kurama. Then to harness its power she sealed it inside of herself to become a jin. It is not defined at what point this happened. Some other translation have it with "to better aid him" but how to better aid him is not even specified. Can it be in battle? Village balance? Village power (9 tails jin big power there). Who knows.
    The first part of said sentence is defenetly in said battle, the second one is not specified.
    He wouldn't really have had to defeat Madara to grab the Kyuubi. And the way she aided him is likely the same way Kushina aided Minato, by taking the Kyuubi off the playing field and keeping it hidden away. It couldn't have been in battle or as an actual Jinchuuriki, because as far as we've seen, no one but the very top was even aware they possessed the Kyuubi. So odds are it never got used like the other Bijuus got used.

  9. #23
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He wouldn't really have had to defeat Madara to grab the Kyuubi. And the way she aided him is likely the same way Kushina aided Minato, by taking the Kyuubi off the playing field and keeping it hidden away. It couldn't have been in battle or as an actual Jinchuuriki, because as far as we've seen, no one but the very top was even aware they possessed the Kyuubi. So odds are it never got used like the other Bijuus got used.
    Considering he did defeated Madara as he grabed Kurama the first part is not really relevant as we know as much.
    I am sure the other villages where aware they had the Kyuubi. I mean Hashirama gave the other bijus away and formed that balance of power between the villages. It would make no sense for the rest not to know of it. Even if Hashirama used Kyuubi's power as a "Nuclear deterrent" and it would be a geat thing. It would be stupid for Hashirama to let the world know WHO was the Jin and i am sure he did not but to make the world aware they had the 9 tails power and "don't fuck with us" was put on the table.

    I mean if you where Hashirama would you not let the world know you had this great power as a deterrent for other villages not to attack you? Makes sense to me. Give the enemy the information that you are a nuclear power but obviously don't let them know where you are hiding your Nukes.

    Oh and Mio could have used her Jin powers and nobody end up knoing it. Its actualy simple. This would just mean nobody that got to see it lived to tell the story :P

  10. #24
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He wouldn't really have had to defeat Madara to grab the Kyuubi. And the way she aided him is likely the same way Kushina aided Minato, by taking the Kyuubi off the playing field and keeping it hidden away. It couldn't have been in battle or as an actual Jinchuuriki, because as far as we've seen, no one but the very top was even aware they possessed the Kyuubi. So odds are it never got used like the other Bijuus got used.
    I think she did use the Kyuubi's power, unless she had the ability to sense emotion. Tobi said Mito had the ability to sense emotions and assumed Naruto would too after he read Kisame's report. I think it was unknown that Kushina was the jinchuuriki.
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  11. #25
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by xXan View Post
    Considering he did defeated Madara as he grabed Kurama the first part is not really relevant as we know as much.
    I am sure the other villages where aware they had the Kyuubi. I mean Hashirama gave the other bijus away and formed that balance of power between the villages. It would make no sense for the rest not to know of it. Even if Hashirama used Kyuubi's power as a "Nuclear deterrent" and it would be a geat thing. It would be stupid for Hashirama to let the world know WHO was the Jin and i am sure he did not but to make the world aware they had the 9 tails power and "don't fuck with us" was put on the table.

    I mean if you where Hashirama would you not let the world know you had this great power as a deterrent for other villages not to attack you? Makes sense to me. Give the enemy the information that you are a nuclear power but obviously don't let them know where you are hiding your Nukes.

    Oh and Mio could have used her Jin powers and nobody end up knoing it. Its actualy simple. This would just mean nobody that got to see it lived to tell the story :P
    We have no idea how the situation went down. Going by Kushina's words, the Kyuubi was taken out before Madara got defeated.

    The point where Hashirama would have given out the Bijuus would have been years(?) before Madara deflected and used the Kyuubi to attack. There's no reason the other villages would have known, especially when Konoha's own citizens weren't aware of that fact. And why would Hashirama need to worry, when his own ability would have neutralized any threat from any Bijuu. Not to mention the Uchiha clan's ability too.

    Unless Mito and Kushina only ever fought alone, without any help, there would have been no way they could have used it's power without anyone else knowing. And the idea that they were always fighting alone makes no sense given that even the Hokages didn't go into battle alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I think she did use the Kyuubi's power, unless she had the ability to sense emotion. Tobi said Mito had the ability to sense emotions and assumed Naruto would too after he read Kisame's report. I think it was unknown that Kushina was the jinchuuriki.
    Well I was talking about the cloak form and such. The hatred sensoring appears to have been naturally occurring without the user having to know about it. Though was it said that Mito directly gained it from the Kyuubi, as oppose to naturally having it and Naruto only gaining something similar? Naruto needed a whole specific mode to gain it, whereas Mito seemingly didn't.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member enmymiguel's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    now they as kid, hashirama is beating madara, cause madara is not using the sharingan.
    cause if madara use it. he will beat hashirama is every contest. but if he activate it. that mean they will be not friend no more.
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  13. #27
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by enmymiguel View Post
    now they as kid, hashirama is beating madara, cause madara is not using the sharingan.
    cause if madara use it. he will beat hashirama is every contest. but if he activate it. that mean they will be not friend no more.
    Not really, considering the fact that Hashirama already had a hunch. the only reason it was concealed was because it would be a dead giveaway of his surname if he used it.

    Even still, to say that it would have been one-sided like that is jumping the gun a tad. Madara, as a child, was killing grown ass men. Hashirama was in the exact same situation as him, yet had not died like a dog, like his brothers before him. Considering what hashirama became, I think it's a bit questionable to make it so cut and dry like that.

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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    you forget that hashirama isn't using his wood element during his sparring with madara. madara with sharingan may be able to counter common jutsu and taijutsu but he can't defend himself against something no one but hashirama can cast (his fire element should be stronger than wood element but perhaps hashirama has really strong wood skills)

  15. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    He wouldn't really have had to defeat Madara to grab the Kyuubi. And the way she aided him is likely the same way Kushina aided Minato, by taking the Kyuubi off the playing field and keeping it hidden away. It couldn't have been in battle or as an actual Jinchuuriki, because as far as we've seen, no one but the very top was even aware they possessed the Kyuubi. So odds are it never got used like the other Bijuus got used.
    Too much assumption. You're denying the manga fact, as usual.

    Madara : this is how hashirama defeated the kyubi. ( the wooden dragon).

    How come you keep on insisting that mito was helping hashirama in his fight against madara? Does madara's words and the latest chapter aren't enough to conclude that hashirama defeated both madara and the kyubi? Do you really think madara would respect hashirama that much if he was defeated by both mito and hashirama? Come on RK. You're down playing hashirama's caliber and his win against madara. Just accept it already. Hashirama defeated madara and the kyubi and he's more superior to madara.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Why is Hashirama stronger than Madara?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Madara : this is how hashirama defeated the kyubi. ( the wooden dragon).

    Madara : This is the Wooden Dragon that Hashirama used to bound the Kyuubi.

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