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Thread: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Notak's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    I dunno, it was Juha Bach at first, then it's like the two became one name

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenacious Weezy View Post
    I know this isn't quite on topic but I've been wondering how exactly Isshin was able to reproduce with a Human. I guess a Gigai could contain the reproduction system needed (disgusting) but how exactly would he pass genes on? Or better yet spiritual powers? I really think the hougkyo made it happen. As for Zangetsu and Juha I think its somewhat coincidental because the Tensa Zangetsu ( the younger one) looks nothing like Bach. I'm just not sold on it.
    It could be that the Gigai are simply extremely realistic. If I remember correctly, in the beginning of Bleach when Sado is protecting that parakeet and Rukia is chasing after him, she complains about tiring quickly and having the stamina of a normal human and gets annoyed at the S&D Institute for paying attention to such "useless details". Perhaps this is one of those "details", although I find it strange that they'd be given fully functioning reproductive organs seeing as they aren't meant to breed with humans. Perhaps Isshin wanted to be as much like a human as possible and Urahara went with that.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renaan View Post
    well, after all is said and done. Ichigo IS a quincy, he just happens to have Shinigami powers (+access to hollow abilities)

    Shinigami are souls, they're dead. Ichigo isn't dead so he can't be a shinigami. He is human born of a quincy, therefore he's a quincy.

    Now when those two traits mixed they influenced each other, we've seen how Hollow-Ichigo threw Zangetsu like a range weapon VERY effectively in their fights and Ichigo did seem to make a note of telling us that internally. And how we learn how Ichigo's materialized Zanpaktou resembles a "Father" of all Quincies?

    I would say it pretty much points to Ichigo being a direct decendant of Buha in my opinion.
    I woulnd't say this is quite true, Ichigo is quite dead, Urahara did cut his chain of fate back in early Bleach, however he appears to be alive as well, perhaps this is because he uses his original body as a shinigami, allowing him to continue as a "living person".

    Assuming the chain of fate is what makes it impossible to re-enter their body in order to continue to live, then who says Shinigami can't enter their own body?
    The problem for most souls is that their bodies are long gone when/if they finally become a shinigami in SS, remember Isshin even became close to a living person and aged normally in a gigai, and apparently even without powers, his past life as a shinigami meant he had no problems with the chain of fate. (Same with Ichigo in the time skip).

    So Ichigo is quite dead if you ask me, and the only reason he can age normally and consider himself alive of sorts, is because he still has his body.
    Ichigo has no chain of fate anymore, therefore I think this is quite valid.

    The whole reason Ichigo can access his hollow powers to begin with is because his soul link was cut, in fact, it was the same requirement to gain access to his shinigami powers.
    The reason Ichigo got his hollow powers is the same as any regular dead plus soul, who becomes a hollow when the chain of fate erodes away, however his shinigami powers is keeping it in check.

    The only mystery and problem I see with this half theory and half facts is that there are no other humans who gained access to shinigami powers while before becoming a hollow, this could be Ichigo's pure bloodline, but I'm really speculating on this one, it's quite weird.
    Cause if this was the case, then we would see more hybrids around, and Ginjou and Ichigo was kinda stated to be the only two in the entire history of SS.
    But maybe it's the bloodlines that makes it so normal humans can't do this, or isn't strong enough to pull it off.

    Either way, at large, even if some things are unexplained, I'm pretty sure Ichigo is a mix of dead and alive, and I think the whole reason that SS isn't taking responsibility of Ichigo is many fold, Ichigo...
    • had never gotten a Soul Burial, essentially invited to stay and live in SS.
    • never had his humanity traits sealed, for example plus souls who can't become hollows anymore.
    • apparently has other abilities that never were sealed, such as fullbring and Quincy powers, for example we don't see dead souls in SS with Quincy powers.
    • never applied/accepted into the shinigami academy.
    • never joined the Gotei 13.

    To be honest, I think all these plus some more reasons I didn't realize or forgot is why the shinigami can't take responsibility for Ichigo, it's not like they can give him a Soul Burial, so essentially he's falling under the law of humans, since he kinda is a mix of dead and alive, but functions as a living person, ageing as long he has his body.

    What I mean is, Ichigo sure is dead, but his shinigami powers allow him to continue to use his body normally, unlike any other plus souls.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    I woulnd't say this is quite true, Ichigo is quite dead, Urahara did cut his chain of fate back in early Bleach, however he appears to be alive as well, perhaps this is because he uses his original body as a shinigami, allowing him to continue as a "living person".

    Assuming the chain of fate is what makes it impossible to re-enter their body in order to continue to live, then who says Shinigami can't enter their own body?
    The problem for most souls is that their bodies are long gone when/if they finally become a shinigami in SS, remember Isshin even became close to a living person and aged normally in a gigai, and apparently even without powers, his past life as a shinigami meant he had no problems with the chain of fate. (Same with Ichigo in the time skip).

    So Ichigo is quite dead if you ask me, and the only reason he can age normally and consider himself alive of sorts, is because he still has his body.
    Ichigo has no chain of fate anymore, therefore I think this is quite valid.

    The whole reason Ichigo can access his hollow powers to begin with is because his soul link was cut, in fact, it was the same requirement to gain access to his shinigami powers.
    The reason Ichigo got his hollow powers is the same as any regular dead plus soul, who becomes a hollow when the chain of fate erodes away, however his shinigami powers is keeping it in check.

    The only mystery and problem I see with this half theory and half facts is that there are no other humans who gained access to shinigami powers while before becoming a hollow, this could be Ichigo's pure bloodline, but I'm really speculating on this one, it's quite weird.
    Cause if this was the case, then we would see more hybrids around, and Ginjou and Ichigo was kinda stated to be the only two in the entire history of SS.
    But maybe it's the bloodlines that makes it so normal humans can't do this, or isn't strong enough to pull it off.

    Either way, at large, even if some things are unexplained, I'm pretty sure Ichigo is a mix of dead and alive, and I think the whole reason that SS isn't taking responsibility of Ichigo is many fold, Ichigo...
    • had never gotten a Soul Burial, essentially invited to stay and live in SS.
    • never had his humanity traits sealed, for example plus souls who can't become hollows anymore.
    • apparently has other abilities that never were sealed, such as fullbring and Quincy powers, for example we don't see dead souls in SS with Quincy powers.
    • never applied/accepted into the shinigami academy.
    • never joined the Gotei 13.

    To be honest, I think all these plus some more reasons I didn't realize or forgot is why the shinigami can't take responsibility for Ichigo, it's not like they can give him a Soul Burial, so essentially he's falling under the law of humans, since he kinda is a mix of dead and alive, but functions as a living person, ageing as long he has his body.

    What I mean is, Ichigo sure is dead, but his shinigami powers allow him to continue to use his body normally, unlike any other plus souls.
    The thing that doesn't really add up with your theory about Ichigo being able to age as long as he is in his physical body is the fact that after he trained with Isshin in the Dangai, his physical appearance had changed (his friends commented on his increasing height & hair length) although he was in his Shinigami body throughout.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Urahara also said that he'd turn into a hollow and they'd have to kill him IF he didn't gain his Shinigami powers, but he did, so they didn't.

    As far as the reincarnation thing, Rukai gave us the drawing herself showing souls moving from SS to Human world and Human World to SS, that's the whole point.

    If you die in SS, where else are you going to go?

    From what we've seen, going from Human world to SS, you retain your memories and appearence. We have no evidence that this is the same going the otherway and to be honest sounds stupid.... the soul will be being born into a new person, from different parents so obviously they would look and be a different person.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renaan View Post
    Urahara also said that he'd turn into a hollow and they'd have to kill him IF he didn't gain his Shinigami powers, but he did, so they didn't.

    As far as the reincarnation thing, Rukai gave us the drawing herself showing souls moving from SS to Human world and Human World to SS, that's the whole point.

    If you die in SS, where else are you going to go?

    From what we've seen, going from Human world to SS, you retain your memories and appearence. We have no evidence that this is the same going the otherway and to be honest sounds stupid.... the soul will be being born into a new person, from different parents so obviously they would look and be a different person.
    Yes, but it's also been hinted at a few times that Shinigamis who die are then reborn as new Shinigamis. The same can probably happen with humans.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    The thing that doesn't really add up with your theory about Ichigo being able to age as long as he is in his physical body is the fact that after he trained with Isshin in the Dangai, his physical appearance had changed (his friends commented on his increasing height & hair length) although he was in his Shinigami body throughout.
    uhh ohhh argh..... Good point
    That kinda ruins the aspect of him ageing while in his body part! So what is it that makes Ichigo age that fast compared to dead souls? What could it possibly be? Since I'm quite sure he's dead, but the ageing fact remains solid.
    Could it be the Soul Burial that seals off the ageing? To be honest I don't like that idea, but something is definitely wrong, Ichigo's soul link was clearly cut into pieces, he even has hollow powers, so what exactly is that make him age?
    Maybe it's a plot hole... or alternatively Keigo mistook Ichigo's long hair on that he didn't grow taller, but the hair made him appear as such?

    Either way, this is a really tricky one, dead or not, perhaps both.
    To be quite honest, if he was both dead and alive would make the most sense in this situation, however that also means that Ichigo won't grow to become many thousand years old, he'll die of old age in what, 70-90 years?
    That's what Soul Society would call a mayfly, as soon as it appears, it's already dying and disappearing again.
    Maybe this will be another trade off for Ichigo's great powers? A very short life.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Yes, but it's also been hinted at a few times that Shinigamis who die are then reborn as new Shinigamis. The same can probably happen with humans.
    Never seen anything close to that hint, would love to see it though

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    When we first saw Bach, it was the first thing I thought of - that he looks like Zangetsu. But over time (and since Kubo tweaked his design) I just don't see the resemblance any more. The similarity between his sword and new Zangetsu is unmistakable though.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular View Post
    When we first saw Bach, it was the first thing I thought of - that he looks like Zangetsu. But over time (and since Kubo tweaked his design) I just don't see the resemblance any more. The similarity between his sword and new Zangetsu is unmistakable though.
    The old Zangetsu should still be there though, Tensa Zangetsu is only when he enters his inner world while in bankai, and for a long while the old Zangetsu was gone while his hollow was on a rampage, so perhaps the original Zangetsu will be there now that we saw Tensa Zangetsu in bankai.
    I find Zangetsu, not Tensa Zangetsu, the best to support Ichigo, cause he appear much more wise and intelligent in that state, where as Tensa Zangetsu is much more emotional. I think the design of Tensa Zangetsu is to allow to show his emotions towards Ichigo, as it would be weird if the full grown man did that.

    So will we see the original Zangetsu again? I think we will, when he discovers his roots.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Renaan View Post
    Never seen anything close to that hint, would love to see it though
    I can't recall when exactly, but I do have a recollection of someone saying something like "the only chance you have of winning is if you die and get reborn as a stronger shinigami". That however, could simply be an insult to the opponent so it might not hold true.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Zaraki screamed at it to Komamura during their fight in the SS Arc if I remember fight, hardly a hint, just a dream of Zaraki's cause it's what he wants.

    Was something like "if a killing fight is what you want then come on and lets try and kill each other so we can do it all over again"

    Doesn't mean they'll be ressurrected in SS, that idea to me just sounds stupid as it totally goes against what was explained to us by Rukia and her diagrams.
    Last edited by Renaan; March 14, 2013 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Extra Info!

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    I don't think a Shinigami's spirit is resurrected once he dies in SS. It's the end when a spirit returns to attain a formless mass of spirit particles, I'd say.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    http://www.mangareader.net/94-500-3/...hapter-46.html

    Hopefully this will end this part of the discussion.

    There's spirit particles and then there's souls, souls are composed of spirit particles true but it's like us humans being made of carbon based elements.

    Now what I find curious is that when a quincy dies, they retain their quincy abilities and don't say move onto becoming Shinigami.

    Juha as assume is for example one of the Founders of the Quincy order... so 1000+ years old. So he MUST be dead , humans are not immortal after all. Did Juha overlook his Quincy line all these years? did he know about Masaki and Ichigo all along.

    Hopefully we learn alot in next few chapters

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Right. There's the cycle of rebirth. What Kenpachi said makes sense if he meant "when we die, we'll be reborn to living bodies and fight again then", or "we'll be reborn, die again and fight as new souls again".
    Erfworld

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    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

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