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Thread: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

  1. #46
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member devstauk's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Alot of people did think there was a resemblance, but never really thought much of it because kubo does have a tendency to create similar looking characters, but i have said this before but i don't think Kubo does this without there being some type o link. the other thing to look at is the similarities between isshin and juha. I don't mean they are the person but i mean the could have relations, for a start i do think Juha was classed as a shinigami but was either outcast or just went bat-shit crazy and revolted.
    Spoiler show

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member FetherMan's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    I think, the reason Juha Bach's younger form is in Ichigo's mind, could have something to do with Juha coming back into his full power. Ichigo could possibly be more important to Juha, than being led on.

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  4. #48
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    So no one else is bothered that this reeks of retcon?

    If the translation on the manga is accurate, then "Zangetsu" has been "pretending" to be Ichigo's Zanpakuto. In reality, "Whitey," the hollow, was his true blade, while "Zangetsu" had no real association with Ichigo's shinigami powers and was simply a humanoid remnant of Juha Bach that represented Ichigo's Quincy origins.

    Then what the h*ll does this mean for the time when Ichigo first awakened his shikai, conversed with "Zangetsu" while fighting Kenpachi, acquired his bankai, learned the Final Getsuga from "Zangetsu," etc.

    Why did "Zangetsu" materialize when Ichigo used Urahara's device that would have his zanpakuto manifest itself on the material plane? Sure, I get that "Zangetsu" has been shown to be able to "absorb" "Whitey" before, but shouldn't the device been able to differentiate between a fake and a real "Asauchi" when it's been clearly established that Urahara deeply studied the techniques employed by the Zero Squad?

    Why wasn't his appearance brought to attention before? Yoruichi witnessed it and she most likely shared it with Urahara and Isshin in the past.

    How is it that some pseudo-quincy was the influential figure in Ichigo's journey in developing his shinigami powers while the hollow in him has been constantly acting as a hindrance in the process, when supposedly the latter is the true source of his zanpakuto?
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; June 06, 2013 at 05:54 PM.

  5. #49
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    So no one else is bothered that this reeks of retcon?
    Some did, just not here. :-P

    I don't see the problem with a retcon, when it's done for continuity, nearly no mangaka is safe of that, they may think over the overall plot for the next year or two and that's it, cold hard reality. One Piece has retcons(haki) and so does Naruto(here and there and some more), it doesn't make the manga bad though, it works, so is there really problem, even if that is one?

    You seem to miss out that this Zangetsu was part of Ichigo too, just the quincy part faking shinigami powers, wich shouldn't be that hard considering the Quincy are masters over reishi control, especially Juha Bach.
    Last edited by Schabrak; June 07, 2013 at 02:31 AM.
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  6. #50
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member NoOneInParticular's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    I'm thinking the whole thing works his way...

    White was transferred to Ichigo, although I'm not sure when. Then it latched onto the Shinigami and Quincy power laying dormant within him. It might have begun fusing with both, but for whatever reason, it had more affinity with the Shinigami side, maybe because it's composition is the same as an Asauchi, since apparently it was created in the same way, using dead Shinigami souls. Or maybe because the Shinigami powers had already been stirred when Ichigo took Rukia's powers, so White fused with those and the emergence of the Quincy powers was only incidental. Either way, Shirosaki tells Ichigo he and Zangetsu were initially one, so I think that at some point White rejected the Quincy powers or vice versa. It could just be that the Quincy powers separated because Ichigo had no grasp of them.

    I don't think Zangetsu was intentionally misleading Ichigo, or at least it wasn't some ploy by Bach himself. I think Zangetsu was genuine in his desire to protect Ichigo and keep him balanced. Ichigo had no idea he had Quincy powers, so maybe the only way Zangetsu could manifest was through the Zanpakuto. His Quincy powers are a part of him, just like his Hollow powers and Shinigami powers - they've never been really separate. It's not odd that the Quincy powers would present themselves as part of the same package. Actually, within Ichigo's inner world, Zangetsu has always kind of represented the finesse and control over the powers, which goes well in hand with how Quincy operate.

    I think the next step for Ichigo is to put Zangetsu in his proper place. Now he's identified him as the representation of his Quincy power, Ichigo's going to need to learn what he's actually supposed to do.

  7. #51
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member SoulAuron's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    So no one else is bothered that this reeks of retcon?

    If the translation on the manga is accurate, then "Zangetsu" has been "pretending" to be Ichigo's Zanpakuto. In reality, "Whitey," the hollow, was his true blade, while "Zangetsu" had no real association with Ichigo's shinigami powers and was simply a humanoid remnant of Juha Bach that represented Ichigo's Quincy origins.

    Then what the h*ll does this mean for the time when Ichigo first awakened his shikai, conversed with "Zangetsu" while fighting Kenpachi, acquired his bankai, learned the Final Getsuga from "Zangetsu," etc.

    Why did "Zangetsu" materialize when Ichigo used Urahara's device that would have his zanpakuto manifest itself on the material plane? Sure, I get that "Zangetsu" has been shown to be able to "absorb" "Whitey" before, but shouldn't the device been able to differentiate between a fake and a real "Asauchi" when it's been clearly established that Urahara deeply studied the techniques employed by the Zero Squad?

    Why wasn't his appearance brought to attention before? Yoruichi witnessed it and she most likely shared it with Urahara and Isshin in the past.

    How is it that some pseudo-quincy was the influential figure in Ichigo's journey in developing his shinigami powers while the hollow in him has been constantly acting as a hindrance in the process, when supposedly the latter is the true source of his zanpakuto?
    well, my theory of the old man taking controll of the shinigamy powers away from shirosaki thus taking the name "zangetsu" for himself is here to explain all of that, i made some 4 posts about that by now, each explaining the theory in further detail, they are all in the predictions thread.
    heres what i think is the explanation to BB having multiple DF:
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3373390
    here is what orihimes powers are and where shinigami power comes from.
    http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showth...t=#post3446556

  8. #52
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Old Man Zangetsu's personality is pretty much summed up as analytical, observant, cunning, wise, calm, quiet, and patient... which is definitely the personality of a Quincy. A Hollow's personality is pretty much opposite of that of a Quincy.

  9. #53
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Not really since both Shinigami and Arracar hollows have shown all these characteristics too. You may think so since Bach needed to do all those things to win the war, and that left the impression that all of them are so, when the first part did show how much many of the Sternritter are not qualified to be called: analytical, observant, cunning, wise, calm, quiet, or patient. If anything most have shown to be the complete opposite, playing around and doing shit.
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  10. #54
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Beatrice's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by noobkiller View Post
    Old Man Zangetsu's personality is pretty much summed up as analytical, observant, cunning, wise, calm, quiet, and patient... which is definitely the personality of a Quincy. A Hollow's personality is pretty much opposite of that of a Quincy.
    Opposites huh?
    Seeing how Shirosaki is this aggressive maniac fighting like a berserker.
    "Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice."

  11. #55
    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner Beelzeboss's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    C'mon, Kubo. If Juha and Zangetsu turned out to be the same person, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL Masaki and Orihime aren't related.
    "Though our paths may differ... you must always live your lives with all your might!
    Never must you consider your own lives insignificant!
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  13. #56
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Zeta42's Avatar
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzeboss View Post
    C'mon, Kubo. If Juha and Zangetsu turned out to be the same person, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL Masaki and Orihime aren't related.
    Ryuken's mother said Masaki was the last Kurosaki. And she also was a pureblood, so both of her parents were Quincies. It's hard to make Orihime related to Masaki without mixing in some Quincy bloodline.

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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    As for why 'Zangetsu' looks like Juhabach from 1000 years ago specifically, I can give two guesses. One would be that it was 1000 years ago that he imparted his power to the Masaki bloodline, so it's Bach's power as it was a millenium ago that flows through Ichigo's veins. Given how Bach restored his strength 9 years ago, there may be a distinction between his power as it is now and how it was then, but that's not really important here.

    My other guess is that it may be something to do with Bach and Ichigo's personalities. We know that Juhabach now is a devious, callous, mean-spirited, heartless bastard, but he may not always have been this way. 1000 years ago he might have been a much more idealistic man, which would go in keeping with Royd's apparent shock at seeing Bach's long dead subordinates in Yama's skeletons. Bach might have genuinely cared about Quincy and even humans back then, though I'm sure he had nothing but contempt for Shinigami. I think it would be pretty interesting if this were the case. It would make for a nice parallel with Yamamoto, who conversely was much more ruthless in the old days and had softened (relatively speaking) in the time since Bach's defeat in the past. But anyway, Ichigo being the young, generally kind-hearted idealist he is, it may be that Bach's image within him has moulded to match that, showing the more benevolent Bach to mirror Ichigo's nature.

  15. #58
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    Re: I think it's time to revisit the Zangetsu / Juha similarity theory...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    So no one else is bothered that this reeks of retcon?

    If the translation on the manga is accurate, then "Zangetsu" has been "pretending" to be Ichigo's Zanpakuto. In reality, "Whitey," the hollow, was his true blade, while "Zangetsu" had no real association with Ichigo's shinigami powers and was simply a humanoid remnant of Juha Bach that represented Ichigo's Quincy origins.

    Then what the h*ll does this mean for the time when Ichigo first awakened his shikai, conversed with "Zangetsu" while fighting Kenpachi, acquired his bankai, learned the Final Getsuga from "Zangetsu," etc.

    Why did "Zangetsu" materialize when Ichigo used Urahara's device that would have his zanpakuto manifest itself on the material plane? Sure, I get that "Zangetsu" has been shown to be able to "absorb" "Whitey" before, but shouldn't the device been able to differentiate between a fake and a real "Asauchi" when it's been clearly established that Urahara deeply studied the techniques employed by the Zero Squad?

    Why wasn't his appearance brought to attention before? Yoruichi witnessed it and she most likely shared it with Urahara and Isshin in the past.

    How is it that some pseudo-quincy was the influential figure in Ichigo's journey in developing his shinigami powers while the hollow in him has been constantly acting as a hindrance in the process, when supposedly the latter is the true source of his zanpakuto?
    How about you actually wait and give Kubo a chance to explain it before screaming out that it's inconsistent? We know very little about it at the moment.

    For the record, why would Yoruichi recognize Juha Bach? She's not that old.

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