Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (10/13/14 - 10/19/14).
Forum News: The nomination phase of the Community Awards 2014 is live! Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Bleach 600 (2)
New Reply
Page 18 of 40 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 28 ... LastLast
Results 256 to 270 of 594

Thread: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

  1. #256
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    He's not a bigot. He's dealing with a legitimate threat in the most logical and humane way possible. For everyone's bitching about his actions, nobody has suggested something better.
    Explain to me what threat the Uchiha represented at this point? They all bowed down to Hashirama, wouldn't leave with Madara, and Madara himself showed his loyalty and put down his arms to make peace, which was his dream after all.

    This "threat" the Uchiha represented only existed in Tobirama's mind because he was pessimist. He feared their power could eclipse his own, and he feared they could overtake the the Senju's role as the leaders of the village. He put the Senju and Uchiha clan's rivalry before the village and the country. The Uchiha posed no such threat until he started doing what he did. This is called a self fulling prophecy. He started it, Danzou finished it.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #257
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    THE SCIENCEMOBILE!!
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,211
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    This in an of itself is wrong for a few reasons.

    I personally don't agree with Naruto's whole wanting to save Sasuke thing. However, I also understand things from Sasuke's point of view, but he obviously went too far in many aspects.

    Tobirama is plain and simple, a bigot. He hates the Uchiha clan. Despises them, and doesn't trust them.

    I dislike Tobirama because he refused to change. Madara, who lost everything, was defeated, shunned by his clan and lost the title of Hokage still believed in his and Hashirama's dream and was playing along until Tobirama went and fucked things up.

    What people fail to realize is that Hashirama and Madara achieved the impossible, they made peace. But, thanks in large part to Tobirama, that peace was short lived. Thanks to his bigotry and stupidity to change, things got worse and went back to how they were.

    Hashirama and Madara's dream was to unite two clans and a country. This isn't an impossible dream like Naruto's, in fact, we've seen it happen many times in real life, two great examples are the Greek City States and German Providences that eventually turned into Greece and Germany.

    But again, thanks to Tobirama, that dream was destroyed. Tobirama wasn't so much a pragmatic person as he was stupid and naive person himself. He couldn't believe people could change despite them doing so right before his very eyes. He is different than people like Oonoki and A who did what was best for their village, but who also were able to see how things changed. He held on to past prejudices even if death because he was a lesser person than his brother, and even Madara.
    So because Tobirama was talking about Madara to Hashirama, Madara is justified in not only turning his back on the village and Hashirama, but outright opposing and attempting to destroy all of them. Tobirama didn't "refuse to change", he stuck by his convictions. Madara not only refused to change his opinions about brotherhood, but completely snaps after seeing what is written on the stone, lies to Hashirama about its contents, and then declares a fight-to-the-death. "I should have only given you the option to kill your brother." This is the person that you're defending instead of Tobirama.

    Yeah, Oonoki was weak and did fishy, Danzou-esque things like working with Akatsuki. Tobirama would never do that, so you're right- they aren't alike. And he isn't like A, who would throw a temper tantrum and emotionally lash out at summit between the most powerful people in the world.

    What exactly did Tobirama do again that caused the end to peace, as you put it? And what could he have done differently?

  3. #258
    Banned 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,802
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    My opinion is:

    Hashirama did everything possible to make Madara trust him,but at the same time he had to be fair to everyone.
    He offered Madara the hokage position, when that didn't work he offered him to be his right hand man. Basically saying he was second in charge. He told Madara he was like a brother and would handle tobirama.

    Tobirama hated Uchiha and hearing rumors about how they gain there power. That couldn't be ingored by Hashirama, and he had to do what was best for the village.

    Madara eventually lost hope and thought that in the end Hashirama would chose his real brother and clan over him, so he acted accordingly.

  4. #259
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    THE SCIENCEMOBILE!!
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,211
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Explain to me what threat the Uchiha represented at this point? They all bowed down to Hashirama, wouldn't leave with Madara, and Madara himself showed his loyalty and put down his arms to make peace, which was his dream after all.

    This "threat" the Uchiha represented only existed in Tobirama's mind because he was pessimist. He feared their power could eclipse his own, and he feared they could overtake the the Senju's role as the leaders of the village. He put the Senju and Uchiha clan's rivalry before the village and the country. The Uchiha posed no such threat until he started doing what he did. This is called a self fulling prophecy. He started it, Danzou finished it.
    lka;sdjflk;asdj They didn't "all bow down". There were still plenty of followers of Madara- I believe Hashirama's judgment of people over Madara's. He's not exactly a people person. And it's not a matter of loyalty, it's a matter of the sharingan. Unlocking the sharingan starts a complex change in the user's brain that tends to result in said user 'breaking bonds' to gain power. Madara and Sasuke's actions and words both suggest this to be true. You can take Tobi's/Madara's/Orochimaru's words completely at face value, but I take them with a grain of salt. Not like they have slanted world views or anything.

    LMFAO "He feared they could overtake the Senju's role"? Where did you get that garbage from?

  5. #260
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    So because Tobirama was talking about Madara to Hashirama, Madara is justified in not only turning his back on the village and Hashirama, but outright opposing and attempting to destroy all of them. Tobirama didn't "refuse to change", he stuck by his convictions. Madara not only refused to change his opinions about brotherhood, but completely snaps after seeing what is written on the stone, lies to Hashirama about its contents, and then declares a fight-to-the-death. "I should have only given you the option to kill your brother." This is the person that you're defending instead of Tobirama.

    Yeah, Oonoki was weak and did fishy, Danzou-esque things like working with Akatsuki. Tobirama would never do that, so you're right- they aren't alike. And he isn't like A, who would throw a temper tantrum and emotionally lash out at summit between the most powerful people in the world.

    What exactly did Tobirama do again that caused the end to peace, as you put it? And what could he have done differently?
    Tobirama wished to wipe out the Uchiha clan from the beginning, he wanted to kill Madara despite him being defeated, thus only added to the cycle of hatred because the younger Uchiha's would see this, gain more Sharigan power and hold a grudge against the Senju. He lacked the foresight his brother obviously had.

    And no, Tobirama refused to see what was plainly in front of him. He saw the Uchiha's still as enemies when they were now comrades. He thought they held ill will towards a village that they help found which wasn't the case. Why would they rebel? The only reason they would rebel is if they became oppressed and spied on, which is exactly what Tobirama did and set in motion. Madara saw this future, and it eventually happened and his clan was wiped out. That only happened becasue of Tobirama's mistrust. Tell me, what exactly was Tobirama implying here? You say he did nothing, but it was quite evident he planned to do something.

    Tobirama was a bigot who was stuck int he past, that much is obvious. His own brother saw this in him and scolded him for it and begged Madara that he would make him change.

    And is what Madara saying so unreasonable? Is Hashirama's brother worth more than peace and the safety of the village? If Tobirama is as pragmatic as you say he is, he would have gladly laid down his life for peace. Madara's point is that Hashirama and Tobirama especially don't value peace as much as they think, they are unwilling to sacrifice their clan for peace, same as Madara. That is why he left, because he wanted to save his clan but they refused to be saved.

    The peace Hashirama and Madara wanted could only be achieved without people like Tobirama. As long as people like him existed, then peace could not be achieved. He constantly looked to the darkness of the past instead of the brightness of the future.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  6. #261
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    THE SCIENCEMOBILE!!
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,211
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    It is not Kishi, but the readers and fanboys. The mistakes across forums is that most readers, and specifically the Uchiha fans are rejecting the clues Kishi is giving about the Sharingan. Kishi has been using Tobirama to say that the Sharingan is always triggered by hatred and anger, and that once it is triggered, the wielder can become irrational. Notice that every time the personality change occurs in Madara, it occurs simultaneously with the Sharingan activation.

    In this chapter, as you said, everything was cooled until Madara learned the truth about the election of the Hokage and the intel about the Sharingan. I am pretty sure that at this point, there was a surge of anger and hatred towards Tobirama that blinded him before he talked to Hashirama. From that point, the turning to evil at the end was justified and logical. Only the readers who are in complete denial of the mechanism behind the Uchiha power will complain about Kishi's recent chapters.

    Actually, I would say to anyone that in order to enjoy Madara's story, you need to accept Tobirama's opinions in the first place. He is the only one who is truly addressing the problem of the Shinobi world as he should. Until someone comes up with a way to clear the irrational side of the Uchiha's Sharingan, I don't think a good leader will place the life of many people in their hands. -----NO OFFENSE---
    OH MY GOD THANK YOU. How can you even understand what Madara is doing if you don't understand the mechanic behind the sharingan that Tobirama explained as fact in the present? It explains why Madara is changing the way that he is, and mirrors Sasuke's otherwise inhumane tendency to completely lose his shit in moments where his sharingan evolves. It's like a cursed seal in the eyeballs that draws on the Sage's juubi-tainted DNA instead of natural energy.

  7. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  8. #262
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    lka;sdjflk;asdj They didn't "all bow down". There were still plenty of followers of Madara- I believe Hashirama's judgment of people over Madara's. He's not exactly a people person. And it's not a matter of loyalty, it's a matter of the sharingan. Unlocking the sharingan starts a complex change in the user's brain that tends to result in said user 'breaking bonds' to gain power. Madara and Sasuke's actions and words both suggest this to be true. You can take Tobi's/Madara's/Orochimaru's words completely at face value, but I take them with a grain of salt. Not like they have slanted world views or anything.

    LMFAO "He feared they could overtake the Senju's role"? Where did you get that garbage from?
    He feared their eye powers, he told this much to Sasuke and Hashirama, he feared another Madara could rise, and it was plainly obvious without Hashirama no one would be capable of stopping them. There's a reason that Hashirama's rise to power signified a shift in the blood feud between the Uchiha and Senju in the Senju's favor.

    And no one supported Madara, he says that much himself. Not a single one shared my sentiment.

    The clan had given up on him and followed Hashirama to peace. They refused to believe the Senju could be plotting against them, when it was plainly obvious that Tobirama was.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  9. #263
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    THE SCIENCEMOBILE!!
    Country
    United States
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,211
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Tobirama wished to wipe out the Uchiha clan from the beginning, he wanted to kill Madara despite him being defeated, thus only added to the cycle of hatred because the younger Uchiha's would see this, gain more Sharigan power and hold a grudge against the Senju. He lacked the foresight his brother obviously had.
    Where does it say he wanted to wipe out the clan? He wanted to kill Madara. He clearly thought that Madara living and influencing the clan was more of a threat than him dying then and there, regardless. Both decisions had consequences. Stop acting like only Tobirama suggested something with consequences.

    Quote Quote:
    And no, Tobirama refused to see what was plainly in front of him. He saw the Uchiha's still as enemies when they were now comrades. He thought they held ill will towards a village that they help found which wasn't the case. Why would they rebel? The only reason they would rebel is if they became oppressed and spied on, which is exactly what Tobirama did and set in motion. Madara saw this future, and it eventually happened and his clan was wiped out. That only happened becasue of Tobirama's mistrust. Tell me, what exactly was Tobirama implying here? You say he did nothing, but it was quite evident he planned to do something.
    He saw Madara as an enemy. He saw the Uchiha as potential threats. He dealt with both in totally different ways. Why are you acting like Tobirama = Danzou. Danzou was a twisted version of Tobirama, but you're acting like Tobirama is the one that was ordering a massacre to obtain eyeballs. Tobirama could have been suggesting anything in that panel; he was probably going to mention his plan to move them to the edge of the village and keep an eye on them. Which I really feel like I need to reinforce WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Please, suggest a different course of action that would not put the villagers at threat of making bonds with an Uchiha. They are a version of this concept cranked up x100. To the point where it's dangerous to have a village with them in it.

    Quote Quote:
    Tobirama was a bigot who was stuck int he past, that much is obvious. His own brother saw this in him and scolded him for it and begged Madara that he would make him change.
    Hashirama was stuck in the past to. "Hush! You're speaking to a pure Uchiha child!" In fact, that was the biggest thing Sasuke took offense to. He only winced at what Tobirama said, because he knew it to be true.

    Quote Quote:
    And is what Madara saying so unreasonable? Is Hashirama's brother worth more than peace and the safety of the village? If Tobirama is as pragmatic as you say he is, he would have gladly laid down his life for peace. Madara's point is that Hashirama and Tobirama especially don't value peace as much as they think, they are unwilling to sacrifice their clan for peace, same as Madara. That is why he left, because he wanted to save his clan but they refused to be saved.
    You really think Madara would have abandoned his insanity just because Tobirama died? And you really think that's an acceptable solution, for Madara to force Hashirama to murder Tobirama? I wish I could see you try to make this argument in person so I could laugh in your face. I think I've had enough MH for the day lol

    ---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    He feared their eye powers, he told this much to Sasuke and Hashirama, he feared another Madara could rise, and it was plainly obvious without Hashirama no one would be capable of stopping them. There's a reason that Hashirama's rise to power signified a shift in the blood feud between the Uchiha and Senju in the Senju's favor.

    And no one supported Madara, he says that much himself. Not a single one shared my sentiment.

    The clan had given up on him and followed Hashirama to peace. They refused to believe the Senju could be plotting against them, when it was plainly obvious that Tobirama was.
    DUH! He was right to fear their doujutsu! It causes their brains to change into a hate>power machine. I would fear that too. That's not equal to "overtaking the Senju's role". You're thinking of Madara's reaction to the Uchiha dejecting him. Which leads me to my next point: Madara was disconnected from his clan, and people in general. I really don't think he had a better idea of who was loyal to whom than Hashirama did. Madara was being pessimistic, it's been his one consistent character trait this whole flashback.

  10. #264
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,035
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I dislike Tobirama because he refused to change. Madara, who lost everything, was defeated, shunned by his clan and lost the title of Hokage still believed in his and Hashirama's dream and was playing along until Tobirama went and fucked things up.
    Um, I'm pretty sure Madara didn't lose everything; I'm guessing his life and the lives of his clansmen were pretty important to him. And what is this about him continuing to believe in the dream of peace? After he lost the title of Hokage and he was shunned by his clan, he betrayed Konoha and Hashirama. How did he continue on fighting the good fight? We go directly from Tobirama's conversation with Hashirama to Madara turning. This idea being put forward that Madara had to endure lots before he turned his back on the village. and that what he faced was brought on by Tobirama is an idea purely of the members of this forum's making. The title of Hokage wasn't something he lost because it wasn't a title he ever held. It wasn't Tobirama, but Konoha that gave Hashirama the title of Hokage. And Tobirama's private conversation with his brother was hardly something for Madara to endure. If he was so sold on the dream he wouldn't be eavesdropping outside windows in the first place. The Uchihas shunning Madara also presumably had very little to do with Tobirama, but much more to do with Madara himself. It is too difficult to accept that Madara threw a tantrum because he wasn't popular with anyone other than Hashirama, was way too paranoid, and tended toward instability.

  11. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  12. #265
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    Where does it say he wanted to wipe out the clan? He wanted to kill Madara. He clearly thought that Madara living and influencing the clan was more of a threat than him dying then and there, regardless. Both decisions had consequences. Stop acting like only Tobirama suggested something with consequences.
    Heavily implied in the link I showed you. Also the fact he could care less that they were wiped out in present time, the fact he wanted to isolate, them, etc. all point to this. I'm sorry he's never said it outright


    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    He saw Madara as an enemy. He saw the Uchiha as potential threats. He dealt with both in totally different ways. Why are you acting like Tobirama = Danzou. Danzou was a twisted version of Tobirama, but you're acting like Tobirama is the one that was ordering a massacre to obtain eyeballs. Tobirama could have been suggesting anything in that panel; he was probably going to mention his plan to move them to the edge of the village and keep an eye on them. Which I really feel like I need to reinforce WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Please, suggest a different course of action that would not put the villagers at threat of making bonds with an Uchiha. They are a version of this concept cranked up x100. To the point where it's dangerous to have a village with them in it.
    Exactly why would the Uchiha's allies be threatened by them? Was there ever in-fighting among the Uchiha's and their allies before this? No, not at all. The only fighting they ended up doing was for power to gain EMS years after. And Tobirama knew nothing about the tablet and the secrets of MS and EMS at this point seeing as how Madara and Izuna were the only one's to achieve it up until then.

    All of Tobirama's fears are unfounded. He believes that these people who swore an oath to Hashirama and shunned their leader would simply one day out of the blue betray the village and peace they fought so hard to attain?

    Please, show me the evidence why that would be the case. There is none, the only reason Tobirama believed so is because he hated the Uchiha's and thought them all to be like Madara.


    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    You really think Madara would have abandoned his insanity just because Tobirama died? And you really think that's an acceptable solution, for Madara to force Hashirama to murder Tobirama? I wish I could see you try to make this argument in person so I could laugh in your face. I think I've had enough MH for the day lol
    If Tobirama was dead Madara would have been the Second Hokage. If he was dead, there would be no mistrust between Madara and the others because Tobirama wouldn't have been scheming to do something to the Uchiha clan. So yes, his death would have solved a lot of problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    DUH! He was right to fear their doujutsu! It causes their brains to change into a hate>power machine. I would fear that too. That's not equal to "overtaking the Senju's role". You're thinking of Madara's reaction to the Uchiha dejecting him. Which leads me to my next point: Madara was disconnected from his clan, and people in general. I really don't think he had a better idea of who was loyal to whom than Hashirama did. Madara was being pessimistic, it's been his one consistent character trait this whole flashback.
    Wrong, their brain causes their doujutsu to evolve you have it backwards.

    And even still, why would you fear your allies getting more powerful? Why would you feel the need to limit your allies power? They were united at this point, all following Hashirama and all wanting peace and yet Tobirama still did not trust them.

    My question to you is why did he not trust them? What legitimate reason did he have that they would try something? Go ahead and find me one, I dare you.

    And if Madara was being pessimistic what exactly was Tobirama being? All he kept thinking was all the bad the Uchiha's were capable of despite all the good they had done. Instead of seeing how they could help the village, he simply saw how they could hurt it. Don't be biased now.

    ---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    Um, I'm pretty sure Madara didn't lose everything; I'm guessing his life and the lives of his clansmen were pretty important to him. And what is this about him continuing to believe in the dream of peace? After he lost the title of Hokage and he was shunned by his clan, he betrayed Konoha and Hashirama. How did he continue on fighting the good fight? We go directly from Tobirama's conversation with Hashirama to Madara turning. This idea being put forward that Madara had to endure lots before he turned his back on the village. and that what he faced was brought on by Tobirama is an idea purely of the members of this forum's making. The title of Hokage wasn't something he lost because it wasn't a title he ever held. It wasn't Tobirama, but Konoha that gave Hashirama the title of Hokage. And Tobirama's private conversation with his brother was hardly something for Madara to endure. If he was so sold on the dream he wouldn't be eavesdropping outside windows in the first place. The Uchihas shunning Madara also presumably had very little to do with Tobirama, but much more to do with Madara himself. It is too difficult to accept that Madara threw a tantrum because he wasn't popular with anyone other than Hashirama, was way too paranoid, and tended toward instability.
    No, he didn't betray Konoha then. He betrayed them when he realized Tobirama's intentions, and realized that if Tobirama was in power once Hashirama was gone that he and his clan was doomed. He never once said he was leaving because of what he lost, but because of what was inevitable because of people like Tobirama.

    The Uchiha's shunned Madara because they refused to believe in what he thought, that they would one day be persecuted and destroyed. Well guess what, Madara was right and they were wrong. They only started to believe in him decades after he was gone and by then it was too late.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  13. #266
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Junior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Country
    The Wall
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,143
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    I dislike Tobirama because he refused to change. Madara, who lost everything, was defeated, shunned by his clan and lost the title of Hokage still believed in his and Hashirama's dream and was playing along until Tobirama went and fucked things up.
    As I've said numerous times before in this thread, I'm tired of people blaming everything on Tobirama and making Madara out to be a choir boy.

    When you get down to it, what did Tobirama REALLY do?

    He VERBALLY expressed his distrust of the Uchiha which, unfortunately, was grounded in the fact that his family had been killing and killied by Uchiha.

    Luckily, Harishima had a hold on things and outright told Tobirama that he would not tolerate any harm coming to the Uchiha -- ESPECIALLY Madara. This seriousness and tone in his voice was obviously enough to reduce Tobirama's actions to mere talk.

    Madara didn't have to go off the way he did. It's just that simple. If he truly wanted PEACE, like everyone seems to claim, he would have stuck it out and came to the table to resolve these issues. In the end, as I've said countless times in my earlier posts, Madara's actions unwittingly validated Tobirama's prejudice.

    After Madara snapped, I bet people were like:

    "Oh wow, Tobirama was right. I thought we had gotten passed this.."
    "Dang, maybe all Uchiha are crazy"

    If he would have stayed with peace and continued to try and convince the Senju that he was not to be feared, this would be an entirely different story.

    For the longest time the people of Konoha feared Naruto and treated him like a monster.

    All of the other ninja used to laugh and call him names, they never let poor Naruto join in any of shinobi games. [/humor]

    He could have said fuck it and became the demon they all thought him to be. However, what did he do? He stuck it out like a true hero and now the people of Konoha praise him as such.

    If Madara was so weak willed that he could let the words of ONE naysayer dissuade him from committing to the peace and Harishima both dreamed of then I'd argue that he never had it in him to create the utopia he envisioned in his childhood.
    2013 MH Resolution: Ignore the fanboys.

  14. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  15. #267
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Junior View Post
    As I've said numerous times before in this thread, I'm tired of people blaming everything on Tobirama and making Madara out to be a choir boy.

    When you get down to it, what did Tobirama REALLY do?

    He VERBALLY expressed his distrust of the Uchiha which, unfortunately, was grounded in the fact that his family had been killing and killied by Uchiha.

    Luckily, Harishima had a hold on things and outright told Tobirama that he would not tolerate any harm coming to the Uchiha -- ESPECIALLY Madara. This seriousness and tone in his voice was obviously enough to reduce Tobirama's actions to mere talk.

    Madara didn't have to go off the way he did. It's just that simple. If he truly wanted PEACE, like everyone seems to claim, he would have stuck it out and came to the table to resolve these issues. In the end, as I've said countless times in my earlier posts, Madara's actions unwittingly validated Tobirama's prejudice.

    After Madara snapped, I bet people were like:

    "Oh wow, Tobirama was right. I thought we had gotten passed this.."
    "Dang, maybe all Uchiha are crazy"

    If he would have stayed with peace and continued to try and convince the Senju that he was not to be feared, this would be an entirely different story.

    For the longest time the people of Konoha feared Naruto and treated him like a monster.

    All of the other ninja used to laugh and call him names, they never let poor Naruto join in any of shinobi games. [/humor]

    He could have said fuck it and became the demon they all thought him to be. However, what did he do? He stuck it out like a true hero and now the people of Konoha praise him as such.

    If Madara was so weak willed that he could let the words of ONE naysayer dissuade him from committing to the peace and Harishima both dreamed of then I'd argue that he never had it in him to create the utopia he envisioned in his childhood.
    My point is, if Madara could change, why couldn't Tobirama?

    Madara only went back to being unreasonable and crazy because of Tobirama, because despite Hashriama's words, Tobirama wasn't going to change, that much was evident even in death.

    The fact that Tobirama was in line for the 2nd Hokage position sealed the Uchiha's fate because of his inability to change and see the good in them. He created a self fulling filling prophecy by doing what he did and treating the Uchiha's in the way he did. Even after Madara's betrayal, the Uchiha's were fine. It was only after Tobirama started mucking things up because he distrusted them that things went haywire.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  16. #268
    The Green Knight MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Gats's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Greenstaring you.
    Country
    France
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,360
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    What is the next step ? That Tobirama implanted a genjutsu on Hashirama's carved face to mindcontrol the villagers against Madara ? Maybe that's how Madara got the Moon Eye plan idea. >.>

    Madara has his share of responsability. He wasn't able to trust for so long, how can he expect everyone would with him as soon as he changed his mind ? Do you think Madara would have killed his brother if we asked him to in order to gain our trust ?

    It wouldn't have been sure that Hashirama's seat would be granted to his brother if people's trust in Madara wasn't that deficit in the first place.
    Last edited by Gats; March 28, 2013 at 12:27 PM.

  17. #269
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,972
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gats View Post
    It wouldn't have been sure that Hashirama's seat would be granted to his brother if people's trust in Madara wasn't that deficit in the first place.
    And by that same notion people's trust in Tobirama seemed to be misplaced don't you think?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  18. #270
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Wonderland 8
    Country
    Bahamas
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,035
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Naruto 625 Discussion / 626 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    No, he didn't betray Konoha then. He betrayed them when he realized Tobirama's intentions, and realized that if Tobirama was in power once Hashirama was gone that he and his clan was doomed. He never once said he was leaving because of what he lost, but because of what was inevitable because of people like Tobirama.

    The Uchiha's shunned Madara because they refused to believe in what he thought, that they would one day be persecuted and destroyed. Well guess what, Madara was right and they were wrong. They only started to believe in him decades after he was gone and by then it was too late.
    How long was it between Hashirama's ascent to Hokage and Madara's departure? I get the impression that Madara didn't bother to stick around. Madara was paranoid and unstable. Hashirama, by every right, should've been expected to remain Hokage for years to come during which Madara could attempt to earn the trust he supposedly wished to see. There were an infinite number of possibilities for the future of Konoha at the time. The difference between Tobirama and Madara is clear in their response to their mutual distrust. Tobirama privately addressed his concerns with his brother, Madara decided to wage war. That is the difference between a reasonable leader and a warmonger. Trust isn't built overnight after years of war. Hashirama and Madara seemed to have these ridiculous expectations that everyone would suddenly forget generations of bloodshed and distrust without cause. And Madara's thoughts on Tobirama's reign weren't accurate. Tobirama served as Hokage, and the Uchiha existed in good standing beyond his death, despite Madara's actions that could only have served to further build on Tobirama distrust of the Uchiha. Madara had far more to do with the Uchiha's eventual demise. The Uchiha had gone on to be respected members of the village, the distrust of the Uchiha was only rekindled after the attack of the Kyuubi. That attack was perpetrated by Madara's disciple. If the Kyuubi hadn't attacked, Minato would be Hokage, the Uchiha wouldn't have faced further distrust because of their perceived role in the attack, they wouldn't have considered a coup, and would likely be among the living. It wasn't Tobirama that massacred the Uchiha, it was their own attempting to stop them from repeating history.

New Reply
Page 18 of 40 FirstFirst ... 8 16 17 18 19 20 28 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts