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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
I think Sanada slapping Yukimura comes from the same source (random 4 box comic within POT itself) that also says Yukimura has immunity to drinks created by Inui (simply because he looks similar to Fuji).
Now obviously that should not be taken as totally canon but it's not like anyone ought to be surprised if Yukimura indeed possesses immunity to Inui's drinks.
Since the rules Sanada established was losing a game = getting slapped, could it be possible that Sanada slapped Yukimura silly after he lost to Ryoma and that's why Yukimura was hitting him as payback in the U17 game?
---------- Post added at 01:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------
Let's look at the events in the Nationals finals.
Sanada was forced to abandon his brand of 'head-on' tennis and was ridiculed by the random guys, due to advice of Yukimura, all in the name of winning.
Yukimura picked Niou to play Fuji. Sanada obviously disagreed with this, since he doesn't even know Niou had illusion powerse at that point so from his point of view that's got to be an auto-lose. While it's not clear how well Kirihara or Yanagi (two other likely candidates for S2) would've fared against Fuji, the loss should be Yukimura's responsibility as he took an unproven guy (nobody on the team even knew Niou had these powers let alone its limitations) compared to two well established players.
Yukimura purposely did not enter the court when asked to, even though doing so would guaranteed an instant win. I'd assume going to the court the time you're supposed to be is supposed to be less dirty than whatever Sanada was accused of doing in his game. If Sanada can be a 'dirty player' so that Rikkidai can win, so can Yukimura.
And then of course, Yukimura actually lost the game to Ryoma too.
In fact, given Sanada's personality, I'd think he'll slap Yukimura extra hard just to show others that he's not going to let his friend off the hook. After all, he doesn't let himself off the hook, so why should Yukimura have any special treatment?
I don't think so. Kirihara/Niou/Marui/Bunta all didn't get slap silly.
+Sanada is partly at fault for the loss. If he didn't go help Echizen get his memory back, Echizen wouldn't make a joke of Rikkai boss
+ another for Yukimura is 100% at fault for the loss. If Yukimura didn't take Kintarou match offer and take the win, Rikkai would have been the Champion.
I guess you can say Yukimura lost to TnK and that's an Act of God too, but all he had to is step into court instead of playing an exhibition match against Kintaro first. I get that he's supposed to be honorable, so he's not going tell Sanada to quickly hide to make sure Ryoma never gets his memory back. But honorable doesn't mean you should end up sabotaging your own team. He's under no obligation to wait for Ryoma and he put his pride first. Sanada swallowed his pride for the team. Why can't he do the same?
Last edited by Phantron; March 29, 2013 at 03:06 AM.
"Significant limitations?" You mean that he was unable to copy one out of all of Tezuka's techniques, presumably one he had seen on that day for the very first time? When ZSS and Devil Mode are revealed, the reactions here and here make it seem like the opposing teams had no knowledge of them prior to the match (which would make sense given that both Semi Finals took place at the same time).
Now it's true that the same thing applies to Saiki and TPhantom as well, but the latter is only a reverse application of the TZone, so as long you can hit Zone you should be capable of understanding how to hit Phantom (whether you can actually apply that much spin to the ball is a different matter). As for the former, interestingly enough Niou copies Zone, ZSD, Phantom and Hyakuren more or less back to back during the first game of his comeback, but he doesn't use Saiki until the score is 5-4. This could suggest that Niou needs some time to learn those techniques, and if Saiki is closer to Hyakuren than ZSS is to anything else he was capable of doing, it makes sense that he'd be able to use Saiki first.
Lastly, what does it matter that nobody besides Yukimura knew about Illusion? If Niou showed that he was able to use TZone, ZSD and Hyakuren, he's clearly the best choice for S2 over Devil Akaya and Yanagi.
As for the S1 match, obviously the best choice would have been to just win by default. But I'm not convinced that Sanada would have wanted that either:
Sanada complied to Yukimura's wish of abandoning his head on challenge against Tezuka, so it could just as well be that Yukimura follows Sanada's wish here to beat a Ryoma at full strength (and maybe get revenge for Kantou?).Quote:
Fuji says Niou isn't even close to the real Tezuka here: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/princ...s/c363/13.html
Assuming he isn't lying or just playing mind games we'll have to assume this statement is readily obvious. Sanada described Niou's performance as 'clowning around', so certainly Niou overall performance is nowhere near Tezuka tier.
Sanada and Yukimura generally has shown unbelieveable knowledge about tennis, including knowing about Tezuka's techs that nobody in their own school knows about. Therefore anything Fuji can deduce, surely Yukimura can deduce if he actually played Niou. Since Yukimura didn't underestimate Fuji, unless Yukimura's well-known ability to magically know how good everyone he never played is suddenly fails him here, he should've seen some warning signs of this matchup. Given Niou needs some time to even get his illusion working, we'd have to assume if he did have a scrimmage of any kind against Yukimura he'd do even worse compared to how well he did in Nationals. So either they never had a scrimmage or Niou told him his illusion will improve by the time the actual game comes around.
Either way since Yukimura acts as the coach of the team, he is responsible for taking a gamble on an unproven player. The fact that anyone else might've still lost to Fuji is irrelevent. I highly doubt Sanada would describe Yanagi's performance as 'clowning around', so at least expectation-wise, Yanagi is certainly regarded as a better player than Niou with illusion.
Sanada got the Emperor title for crushing people head-on and he abandoned it, at Yukimura's request, to beat Tezuka. We'll ignore whether that scene even makes any sense but that's the sacrifice Sanada allegedly made for the team.
Sanada absolutely isn't going to go cry to Yukimura that since he lost to a kid before Yukimura must avenge him. Sanada obviously understands that winning is still more important than his pride, which is why he agreed to Yukimura's advice in the first place, so there's no argument about Yukimura attempting to 'avenge' for Sanada. That also goes directly against what he preached about winning is the only thing that matters.
Yukimura purposely waiting for Ryoma is not unlike Ochi giving the tiebreaker to Atobe/Niou when Kabaji jumped in (the point should be replayed and under no circumstance should Atobe/Niou team get the point for using 3 guys to score). There's nothing honorable or noble about such an act. It's just plain stupidity. It's not like Yukimura sent an assassin to knock out Ryoma and then later decided that was dishonorable so he got to wait. You're not obliged to do any more than what the rule says. Honorable means you don't just say "Quick disqualify that guy before he gets here!" Had the ref asked Yukimura if he was willing to wait a few minutes, the honorable thing to do is agree to the ref's request. But that's not what happened. Yukimura participated in a circus act from Kintaro that's clearly designed to keep the ref distracted so Ryoma can get there on time. Although he talks about how winning is all that matters (which is why he scoffs at the concept of TnK requiring you to enjoy tennis), he put his pride ahead of his philosophy and that cost his team the championship.
---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------
One piece of key information that's missing is how long did it take Yukimura to play Kintaro. Kintaro asked for just one point, but we know 'one point' can last a very long time in POT. I don't think it's a case where Yukimura played Kintaro for less than 5 minutes, beat him, and then Ryoma arrived, because you'd think the ref is willing to give 5 minutes for people to show up. So I assume based on that scene Yukimura took a nontrivial amount of time to deal with Kintaro, simply because Ryoma needed that much time to get his memory back.
Now, if POT is so hardcore that if you're not present at the time the match begins you automatically forfeit, no question asked, then that is just Ryoma's fault for not being there on time in such a harsh environment.
Note that Inui had to forfeit a game in U17 due to a stomach problem and his opponent sure didn't wait for him.
Sanada was the first to hand Yuki a towel.
If Yanagi had to ask to receive his bitch-slap, as it seemed Sanada was gonna let him off, its extremely unlikely he would hit Yuki.
It can't be considered canon.
---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 PM ----------
That isn't winning.
Their law is tennis is a battle. Do you really think people who have this law would happily win all of their tournaments where people forfeit.
Their law is to defeat all opponents.
Yukimura knows full-well the boy who defeated Kirihara, Atobe and Sanada is Ryoma.
The Sanada situation is different. In Sanada VS Tezuka, Sanada proved he was just out-right better than Tezuka.
Once Sanada nullified TPhantoms spin with Rin after owning him with Rai, AND KaRinRai it was just clear.
With Yukimura VS Ryoma, it would end as Rikkai not conquering Seigaku. But Seigaku forfeiting. Not Rikkai's style at all.
Sanada knows this too well so he went and collected Ryoma, the rest of the Rikkai squad didn't even react as they all seemed to have wanted the same thing, which was to conquer their opponents properly. "The Rikkai Way".
The point about Sanada not using Rai is that it's supposed to a tech he reserved to beat Tezuka, which fail miserably.
It's shown here.
It's because Rin isn't fighting the opponent head on. That's why it's they call him unbefitting of the title Emperor. He's not directly crushing his opponets by using Rin.
So yeah, Sanada knows he won't win in a head on challenge. Some people on this forum might say Rin is a fair tech, but looking at amount of page AND even Sanada himself saying that by doing so, he's not doing a head on challenge with Tezuka anymore, it's pretty clear. I will not say Sanada is outright better than Tezuka.
Why does Sanada seal Rai and In during Kantou final? Because he want to save them to use them against Tezuka. Why do he have to save them? We don't know the exact reason, but my guess would be that Sanada was afraid Tezuka are going to think of some ways to counter his tech if he reveal them at Kantou final.
Result? He can't beat Tezuka in a head on challenge, throw away the reason he got his title as an emperor (crushing opponent in head on challenge), his secret tech that we develop to beat Tezuka get defeats even though he seal them away in order to defeat Tezuka. Yeah, he sure is surely outright better than Tezuka.
Either way, you're free to think that Yukimura is a hypocritical idiot and had no other reason for his actions, it's not a view I'm willing to share though.
Also, you said that comic strip was a four panel thing, right? Are you sure it wasn't one of the Houkagos? Because those are very far away from being canon.
---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------
I think Sanada only considers moves that derive from physical attributes as 'head-on' and he considers any skill-based shot as merely tricks. That is, Fu is physical speed, Ka is physical power, Zan is physical endurance, Rai is physical speed + power, but Rin is clearly not based on physical attributes. It's ironic since it's not like he hates skill based moves because he can't do it. He probably has one of the highest skill in the POT.
At any rate I don't know why everyone in the audience buys the whole 'dirty player' bit. Tezuka was the first one who gave up in the physical game, as he realized he cannot physically return Rai no matter what so he has to use a technique to avoid returning it. So if there's a dirty player it's Tezuka who gave up trying to return Rai head-on and sidestep it, and all Sanada is doing is to counter Tezuka's 'dirty play' with his own. I guess you can say two wrongs don't make a right so that's why Sanada still feels humiliated but he definitely didn't start the so-called 'dirty playing'.
---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------
Yukimura made a gamble to play Niou. Since that did not work out, it's his responsibilty, at least so far as who ought to be on the receiving end of the Sanada slaps. Sanada doesn't slap people for losing in obviously hopeless games (he didn't slap Kirihara losing to Fuji), and from his point of view he obviously don't think Niou was going to win, so at some point Yukimura must have stepped in and say 'trust me this is going to work'. Not saying he was wrong but it's still his responsibility to go against the conventional wisdom and fail.
For the canon thing, there are a lot of random side materials for POT and obviously they should not be taken completely seriously but it's not like it's a different person who drawn those. Yukimura is shown to have immunity to Inui's drinks from the same source. It's not official but there's nothing unusual if this turned out to be true. In another side story at the black jacket camp most of the MSers got turned into zombies and Sanada slapped Jackal for slacking off as a zombie and this returned him to normal. The point is that Sanada will slap anyone for breaking the rules whether it's Yuikimura or zombie Jackal so while the incidents described probably never happened in canon POT, you should not doubt the fact that Sanada absolutely will slap Yukimura or a zombie if they broke some rules, and Yukimura definitely qualifies for being slapped for losing to Ryoma. I say Yukimura taking revenge on Sanada because he's slapped as a joke, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Yukimura was slapped for losing to Ryoma, because that is the Rikkidai way.
Re-read the story Phatron before you throw big pieces of texts and theories.
Yukimura stated that Niou had already told him all about his Illusion abilities.
Do you really think Yukimura would have played him without knowing Niou had learned Illusion?
Yukimura wiped the floor with Ryoma, but after TnK, Ryoma would have wiped the floor with EVERY other MSer.
Unless you think Sanada is a retard since he hasn't been shown as one in the series, why would Sanada have slapped his friend who lost to freaking TnK if he didn't actually hit Marui/Jackal or Niou for losing??
Makes no sense Phantron.
Sanada then tells Yukimura he wants the boy crushed. I wouldn't say Sanada is crying for his friend to avenge him at all, but for the pride of Rikkai he wants proper win for the team.
It seems Sanada wouldn't have enjoyed winning by default.
Ochi let the point go because as far as the rest of the audience was concerned, Ochi/Mouri would have won if that 3rd player didn't intervene for the opponent.
Of course he was arrogant for letting it go, but it wasn't stupid since if your opponents are exhausted whilst you're nearly full of stamina, and they needed a 3rd guy to secure a point, why wouldn't you let it go since the next set was won 6-0, had Niou not become Atobe and Synchro'd which was just crazy and unexpected by the whole camp, Ochi/Mouri would have comfortably won.
In Yukimura's case, he just wanted to fight fairly for the title of the Middle School National Tournament in a Singles match.
How is arrogantly letting the point that YOU WON YOURSELF, the same as wanting to fight fairly for a trophy with the score tied at 2-2 by other players?
How is that stupid? Was Sanada stupid for wanting to go all out with Rai and not even caring that his legs were gonna give out?
Since after his opponent lost, Sanada fell to the floor.
Was Sanada stupid for that? Of course not.
You need help with your logic Phantron.
---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------
Why is Yukimura at fault for wanting fight fairly and earn the trophy?
I don't see how you can criticize Yukimura for wanting a fair Singles match for the title.
Something that Sanada and Atobe obviously supported.
I think all the MSers supported and respected this. There was no "WHY ISN'T THE CAPTAIN ON THE COURT?? WHY DOESN'T HE ACCEPT HIS WIN??" from any key characters in the audience.
I can't think of any self-respecting character in PoT who would do different than to what Yukimura did besides perhaps Mizuki Hajime.
None of anybody on here's favorite characters would have done any different.
I think it's funny what makes Rikkidai and Sanada unique is that they don't come up with excuses for losing and yet we're seeing every conceiveable excuse out there so that Yukimura doesn't get slapped for losing. You don't see Sanada saying, "But the chance of that Cool Drive landing was only 1%! How could I possibly know he's going to get this lucky?" No he asked his team to slap him hard because he failed his team on a game he was in a position to win. Yukimura failed his team in an even more spectucular way as while Ryoma had only 1% chance of winning (it's implied if the Cool Drive didn't succeed he'd have lost due to running out of energy), but Ryoma has 0% chance of beating Yukimura because he should have been disqualified.
The reaction of the audience is mostly irrelevent because the audience, in general, are dumb in POT and have no idea what they're talking about to begin with, but if you want to go that way, then let us start from the beginning. The reaction of audience to Sanada using Rin is 'he's a dirty player'. Yukimura clearly also knew this ahead of time, so in the first game he basically told Sanada to start playing dirty or they will lose S3. After he told his best friend to play dirty to win, he refuse to play dirty himself, even though I'm pretty sure entering the court at the time you're supposed to is got to be less dirty than whatever Sanada was accused of doing.
Had Sanada not put his pride aside and started playing 'dirty' Yukimura wouldn't even get a chance to play, as the result would be 3-1 Seigaku if Sanada lost (likely outcome if he didn't use Rin), so he asked his best friend played dirty so that he even has a chance to play a game, and then he threw away a guaranteed victory in arrogance. So basically Yukimura is saying we must do everything, including dirty play, in the name of victory, except for himself. The Child of God can't be seen with a blemish on his resume if his opponent was disqualified due to his own problem, but it's okay for the Emperor to be a dirty player in order to win.
@Phantron, you're saying this, yet nobody in the audience made a comment saying Yukimura should have stepped onto the court.
And you seem to be in love with Sanada but you've stupidly forgotten that SANADA was the one who wanted and practically asked Yukimura to play Ryoma.
So if you're criticising, go and criticize your beloved Sanada.
Your logic makes little sense.
SANADA HIMSELF wanted Yukimura to play.
And thing is Phantron, Sanada beat Tezuka fair and square in a Singles match. Sure he threw away a head-on challenge but he won fair and square.
All Yukimura did was decide to have a fair and sqaure match with Ryoma.
How is that a blemish on his resume? Wanting to have a fair match for the title?
Your logic is stupid.
I don't know why you keep on bring up the audience since it only makes Yukimura look worse. In POT ethics, Sanada pulled a dirty trick to defeat Tezuka. This is evident from the way everyone booed Sanada for his failure to play 'head-on tennis', whatever this means. Looking at Yukimura's action he's hardly surprised by the audience's reaction, so he is well aware of what constitutes as 'dirty playing' in the world of POT.
So after just asking his friend to do some dirty playing for the team, he apparently can't bring himself to the same dirty playing he demanded from his friend. No Sanada isn't going to ask him, "Hey I just got labeled as a dirty player for the S3, maybe you should do the same?", because he's not that kind of character. On a comparative level he values honor over victory more than Yukimura did, which is why Yukimura thought 'playing dirty' was totally legit while Sanada initially disagreed. Yukimura even says crushing Ryoma head-on is the way Rikkidai does things, the same thing he just asked Sanada to NOT do in the name of victory earlier. And unlike Sanada's game, the stakes are higher and there's also no possibilty of failure. There's no guaranteed 'playing dirty' would've been enough to defeat Tezuka, but 'playing dirty' against Ryoma, namely stepping into the court on time, is a guaranteed win.
At any rate the whole slapping thing has nothing to do with friendship. The rules of Rikkidai is that if you lose a game you get slapped. Sanada didn't make any excuses on why he lost to Ryoma, even though he had better reasons to lose simply because Yukimura technically already won the game (Ryoma should've been DQed). If Sanada slapped Yukimura it's not because he's mad at him for losing. He's only doing it because that's what the rules say. Maybe Sanada allows more leeway for the lesser players in Rikkidai but there's no way he'd be making excuses for himself or Yukimura, who is better than he.
I'm stunned you think Sanada hitting Rin and Rai from the same stance is the same Yukimura as winning by default.
That's so stupid.
Sanada was the one who wanted Yukimura to play Ryoma.