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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
blablabla... now can you look at it again without your Uchiha spite getting the best of you? I don't see anything that would have made the Uchiha pathetic. They swallowed all of the bigotry Tobirama had established during his raign for decades... all for the sake of peace.Quote:
It wasn't until the Ninetails incident when the discrimination reached a new level and the Uchiha finally couldn't bear it anymore. The whole coup was pretty much provoked.
And I think its pretty damn obvious Tobirama would have loved to see the Uchiha being eradicated so that his paranoid mind can finally get some rest. The only thing keeping him from it was Hashirama.Quote:
I'm also willing to bet this whole "Police Force" thing wasn't an act of kindheartedness, but most probably Tobiramas attempt to unify his brothers dying wish with his own anti Uchiha convictions... needless to say it didn't work too well.
Btw. Orochimaru is actually in a pretty damn good position to judge the whole situation, since he doesn't give a crap about anything else then himself, which in turn makes him capable of forming a completely neutral, unbiased assessment. Since none of this actually concerns himself or his agenda.
Last edited by LnDRash; March 27, 2013 at 09:23 PM.
In fact, I had the opinion that the reason why shisui and itachi awakened their MS is due to their love to konoha. They placed their village above to their clan. And in return, they awakened the true potential of their sharingan.
Tobirama wants the uchiha to protect and love the konoha. And he want them to used their sharingan/power to become an asset to their village, that's what tobirama was trying to convey to the uchiha. So overall, t'was the uchiha who become a paranoid. They plan the coup because they misunderstood tobirama's action. No wonder itachi hated them that much.
The true villain is (I think).......
Almost every bad character in Naruto ends up coming around somehow, or having some sort of understandable reason + change of heart. And besides that, it's hard to pin down one "big, final bad guy." We've got Obito, Madara, Orochimaru, and Sasuke all sort-of competing for that spot, but no single one of them is filling it. And I don't think they will, because the end of Naruto will probably be everybody "just getting along."
babaGAReeb , M3J and LnDRash can u tell me
how many uchiha he killed after he become hokage ??
if he was behaving bad with uchiha then why not even one uchiha left village with madara ??
if he was bad with uchiha and think them as trash then why did he has Kagami with him ??
how many uchiha help when tobi attack village ??
who kill uchiha clan ???? (well both of them r uchiha clan members)
u guys hate Tobirama because ?? (ohhh yes u hate him because he tell truth that uchiha eye's power = hate)
as u guys say uchiha were like trash to others then we have sasuke who was like prince in village and got more love then he wanted and we have naruto who was like trash to village and lots hate him. plus uchiha was elite clan in village if u think that then u will know that uchiha were never trash for village.
Danzou and the Village Elders order to kill uchiha clan but look like every uchiha fun/lover forget that uchiha were going to attack village.
Tobirama is no villain. He just speaks the truth and that straight to the point. Acutally if Hashirama would have killed all Uchihas like Tobirama wanted... then the narutoworld wouldnt be in such problems as now.
I´m a german. I got a fable for this kind of leaders. =)
Jeah Nagatos... what would Nagato be without the Rinnegan he gained from the (then already dead) Madara? I dont think he would be a thread to Hanzo or even to Konoha.
Orochimaru was evil to begin with, no one maked him that way, so he would be still there. That atleast is legit.
Its just that before Hashirama died he once again most likely told Tobirama to leave the Uchiha alone, just like he already did here:
Tobirama was then probably conflicted, because on one hand he had his own convictions and on the other his beloved and respected brothers dying wish and all the he fought/worked for his entire life. Thats the sole reason why I believe the Uchiha have been left alive, because from his talk with Orochimaru and Sasuke its clear Tobirama still didn't let go of those views even during his raign.
First of all I don't hate fictional characters. I have some like Naruto which I'm not very fond of, but that still doesn't make me hate him. And I most certainly don't hate Tobirama. I may not share his views, but characters like him are important and make a story interesting. But that doesn't mean I can pardon him and justify all that he did.Quote:
For further example: I really like Orochimaru as a villain, but that still doesn't change the fact he's a selfish, cold, nihilistic and sadistic asshole.
Now about the Sharingan: wrong
The Sharingan isn't the cause of the hatred, its a symptom. We already have three EMS users that didn't go batshit crazy, namely Itachi, Shisui and most importantly Kakashi, who awakened EMS despite not being Uchiha, which pretty much proves that Uchiha Brain Chemistry Crap Tobirama keeps talking about is nothing more then what he already admitted: rumors.
The Sharingan can be problematic because it develops when the person suffers negative/traumatic feelings. These emotions hold the potential to change a person for the worse. If an Uchiha suffers trauma and as a result happens to go mad, the suffering that comes with his madness will only continue to make his eyes stronger, which in turn means if an Uchiha goes rogue he's a greater threat then lets say an Akimichi, who wouldn't get anything in terms of power from walking that path except maybe if he resorts to binge eating to numb the pain.
I'm neither an Uchiha nor Senju Fan/Lover. From a personal point of view I really don't care much about both of those clans. I enjoy reading the story of their history and quarrels, but thats about it.Quote:
Most of my favorite characters came from Otogakure or Akatsuki and are either long since dead or incapacitated. If I made you a list of my favorite characters you wouldn't find an Uchiha anywhere even close to the top 10, but you would actually find a Senju somewhere pretty high up: namely Tsunade.
Trying to accuse me of some Uchiha-Fetish and thus bias won't do you much good. Thank you for the prejudice though, Tobirama would be proud of you
Besides, like I already said. The Elders may have acted to protect the village, but that doesn't mean much considering their actions where the direct cause of what provoked the attack.
Its like me throwing a rock at you and then complaining you dared to throw a rock back at me instead of remaining passive.
Because Hashirama was the hokage, and he was treating the Uchiha like an equal. And if Tobi's statements are actually true or factual, few Uchiha began to follow in Madara's footsteps or began to realize his view after Tobirama moved the Uchiha further away and established the police force when he became hokage.Quote:
Because the Uchiha are powerful. If Tobirama was on his own, he might have sent Kagami to his death as sacrifice. And we don't know how many Uchiha helped. Most of them could have helped, but we didn't see it. Or Kishi purposely avoided showing us Uchiha helping (whether making them obscure or skipping them completely) to make us wonder about the Uchiha.
Tobi and Itachi on the orders of Danzo and possibly the elders. All three wanted the Uchiha killed, and Danzo had Sharingans on his arm. He wanted Uchiha's power and probably to eradicate any threat to his own power while he and the elders wanted to cling onto their power and not let Uchiha continue to have any equality.
I do not hate Tobirama. And no, he did not tell the truth about the Uchiha's eye power = hate, and he even admitted it was just a rumor. Itachi, Shisui, and even Sasuke to an extent prove that eye power has nothing to do with hatred. Itachi and Shisui attained Mangekyo Sharingan, and Itachi had complete SUsano'o, but he had no hatred in him or any kind of evilness. Sasuke isn't completely evil either, he's just someone who can be swayed - and even with Sharingan he was still good in Part I until Orochimaru got to him, and Itachi returned.Quote:
Other than TObirama's skewed views on the Uchiha, I actually think Tobirama was the kind of hokage that Konoha needed, or at least someone that Konoha needed. Hashirama was too nice, but Tobirama knew that he had to be harsh. I even recognize that Uchiha most likely had political power or equality during his time as well, unless HIruzen was the one who gave such power during his time.
But, I'm willing to bet if Tobirama thought like that about the Uzumaki or even Namikaze, many who defend him would hate him or attack his policies. The only reason why majority defend him is because like Tobirama, the fans don't like Uchiha.
I don't remember saying the Uchiha were like trash to the village. I'm not sure if anyone else said that either, as we have proof that the village did respect the Uchiha.Quote:
Do you know why Naruto was hated/considered trash?
Uchiha fun/lover? What? I don't give a shit about the Uchiha other than Itachi, and I hate Tobi for what he did to Naruto and his parents. I don't like Sasuke. Accusing others of being fans/lovers of a character or clan shows one has no good argument, so they resort to attacking the person's preference, no matter how true it is. Try to avoid that, please. In any case, I'm still pretty objective, otherwise I wouldn't even be defending Sasuke or Uchiha.Quote:
And the Uchiha were planning a coup (not necessarily attacking the village) BECAUSE Danzo and the elders stripped Uchiha of political power/equality and began to treat them as outsiders or a clan not to be trusted. Cause and effect - Cause was the elders blaming Uchiha and Danzo potentially wanting Uchiha dead for power, and effect was Uchiha rebelling against unfair treatment.
And no, if Tobirama didn't act on his bias towards the Uchiha or if the elders weren't such douches, then there would be fewer problems. Tobi would likely be the only Uchiha not on Konoha's side, and Team 7 would be even better than the Sannins. Or at least, Naruto and Sasuke would be more powerful than their Sannin mentor, even if not a better ninja.
ANBU were created to take out any rogue or potentially rogue. i dont think they were created to kill only Uchiha (i m not 100% sure but didnt other villages also have ANBU)
didnt they have 4 people Tobirama, kagami, 3rd hokage and Danzou so if he wanted to sent Kagami to his death as sacrifice no one there to stop him because he is hokage and hokage's life is more important then one village member. and he choose 3rd as next hokage then Danzou also 3rd is good hokage if he wanted to make thing bad for uchiha he would have chose Danzou as 3rd hokage . as far we know when tobi attack village not single uchiha help village that time no one even able to find 1 uchiha in villageHTML Code:Because the Uchiha are powerful. If Tobirama was on his own, he might have sent Kagami to his death as sacrifice. And we don't know how many Uchiha helped. Most of them could have helped, but we didn't see it. Or Kishi purposely avoided showing us Uchiha helping (whether making them obscure or skipping them completely) to make us wonder about the Uchiha.
its wrong only itachi did it on order tobi did it because he wanted it also Itachi did it because its good for villageHTML Code:Tobi and Itachi on the orders of Danzo and possibly the elders
news to u i dont hate uchiha i m not defend him only because he hate uchiha but i m not ready to call him the true villian of naruto because he hate uchihaHTML Code:But, I'm willing to bet if Tobirama thought like that about the Uzumaki or even Namikaze, many who defend him would hate him or attack his policies. The only reason why majority defend him is because like Tobirama, the fans don't like Uchiha.
creator of this Thread babaGAReeb say Tobirama was also the creator of Edo Tensei, which resulted in Sarutobi's death the first time it was used, and in the deaths of millions the second time its one of his resone why Tobirama is true villian if that make him true villian then i have true villian and he is creator of ninja world /father of ninja world Sage of Six Paths
M3J and LnDRash u say u r not Uchiha fun/lover but u r ready to make/accept tobirama as the true villian of naruto because he hate uchiha clan
if u were not Uchiha fun/lover then why didnt u think of Madara , Tobi or orochimaru who we know did bad things but only thing that tobirama have as bad is his hate for uchiha that does not make him villian of naruto. if that make him villian of naruto he will come on no/rank 4.
if u r looking for true villian of naruto than best options r Madara , Tobi or orochimaru.
Last edited by suraj5898; March 29, 2013 at 01:22 AM.
Yeah, the other villages did have ANBU with their own roles like capturing missing nins, serving as bodyguards, etc.
But the others would likely lose hope in Tobirama or take the wrong kind of example and start sending others to die for them. If what happened spread, then people/Uchiha would lose trust in leadership for allowing someone younger to die. And apparently, the hokage's life isn't more important than one villager. The next generation is far more important, they're the kings.Quote:
He never chose Danzou, he chose Sarutobi because Sarutobi was powerful and loved his village. I doubt Danzou was as bad as he was before he died - he probably had no ill feeling towards the Uchiha.
There's nothing that says Uchiha didn't help or couldn't be found. There could have been plenty of Uchiha for all we know, but they weren't shown or them being Uchiha was hidden right before our eyes, just to make them look guilty. Plus, Itachi wondered where his parents were, not his entire clan.
What if the Uchiha were too far away to help because of where Tobirama relocated them? That's quite possible too.
According to the flashback few chapters ago, Danzou ordered Itachi to kill the Uchiha by using Sasuke as leverage. If Itachi didn't kill the Uchiha, then Sasuke would also be killed. If Itachi did kill the Uchiha, then Sasuke would be spared.Quote:
Itachi did go to Tobi and told him he could help under the condition that he didn't touch Konoha as whole.
He seems to be one of the true villains for his ideals, though ultimately that'd be Danzou for what he's done. Makes me wonder if Nagato would have used chou shinra tensei on Konoha if Danzou didn't help Hanzou betray Nagato.Quote:
And maybe not you, but others seem to defend Tobirama because they don't like Uchiha.
Rikudou Sennin as far as we know sought peace, taking on the Juubi to end strife and destruction. Tobirama created Edo TEnsei, a sinful jutsu. Even Hashirama was against it at the time, and everyone who knows about Edo Tensei says how it's an evil jutsu and how it messes with time.Quote:
Though I don't think that really makes Tobirama a true villain, not like it does Orochimaru since he aimed to use the Edo Tensei to destroy Konoha and kill his mentor while screwing with Hiruzen's mind.
It has nothing to do with Uchiha clan and everythin to do with what Tobirama has said about Uchiha and what he's done to them. I've even defended Tobirama and said that I thought people were being too harsh on Tobirama or accusing him of things that he didn't do.Quote:
Why mention Orochimaru? He has nothing to do wiht Uchiha or anyone. It's Tobirama, Madara, Tobi, Danzou, and the elders who've sealed the Uchiha's fate. Tobirama made Uchiha look bad and planted seed of suspicion within them by pushin them away just because of Madara. TObirama has mentioned many times his views on the Uchiha resulted from what Madara did after Hashirama became hokage. That's quite a villain thing of Tobirama to do. Then Madara and Tobi are self-explanatory, and I'm assuming Danzou and elders are as well. Though, we can throw Izuna as one of the villains as well.
Apparently, Madara went batshit angry after Tobirama voiced his bias towards Hashirama. If even Hashirama has said Tobirama was biased and was being bigoted towards the Uchiha, why are people denying it?
Can't say i blame Tobirama but i can't blame to Uchiha just as well... Its just the circumstances. Tobirama is right to not fully trust the Uchiha. He had his entire clan to protect. I mean its not like he did something bad to them. Yes he did not love them but so what? Can't say i see a fault in him. He did what he found LOGICAL to do. Hashirama was more like a Jesus type figure. Nothing wrong there to. We need to see the entire flashback from Hashirma and then Tobirama to determine what he did but i don't see him doing something out of spite or hate. He was just carefull, perhaps to much but you can't really blame him.
Would it be better if Tobirama was more like Hashirama? Would things turn up for the better? Yes sure (probably) BUT i don't fault him for his cold logic.
Now for the Uchiha... The hole thing Tobirama stated about sharingan power and the brain = hate and what not its obviously wrong. Kakashi has MS and he has no side effects like the Uchiha.
Now i can't say i fault the Uchiha, not even Madara. He was acting on his little brothers last wish and he wanted to protect them even from themselfs. The Uchiha clan was pushed in the end to far and retalieted.
In the end what describe the situation perfecly is "SHIT HAPPENDS".