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Thread: What do you think would happen to the balance?

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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    What do you think would happen to the balance?

    I honestly wonder how the Quincy, Shinigami, Balance of Souls, King of Soul, matter would be resolved.

    Right now, there is a war going on about just that but to be clear, it was always a subject of question from day one in Bleach.

    Aizen opposed the flawed system of the shinigami with his own ideals. To him, it's the Soul King's fault for allowing such a flawed system to dominate the reality of the worlds & he once believed (or still believes) by obtaining the thrown of God, he would be able to make the world how it should be, rather than how it is.
    That's why he underwent countless research in order to metamorphose himself to be capable of obtaining that position. Don't worry, he's still a despicable person.

    The Quincy are also doing the same & had been doing so for over 1000 years.

    The weak had perish & seemingly would continue to perish in this struggle, while the strong would flourish.

    I don't have to remind people that the shinigami are responsible for the maintaining of the balance of souls. It is this very reason Mayuri order the complete eradication (NOT purification but total decimation) of 28,000 Rukongai citizens. It's apparent that the system forces these atrocities, so it's clear that the shinigami perform these actions because they must. Though in the end, if all goes to shit & the balance is demolished, everyone is screwed regardless.

    So back to the discussion. How do you think the problem would be resolved? (if it would be resolved). You may discuss the subject or predict the outcome or both.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member im over hyped's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    i think the balance will collapse. the balance is as broken as the world economy, so in order to fix the balance it has to be destroyed[example: like in god of war the gods and goddesses were being killed off and the worlds balance turned into chaos. in to end everything ended up fine and turns out the balance doesn't need to be controlled by someone/self-appointed regulators.
    I used to be a great female character, but then i took a sword to the chest twice by a imbecile .

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Balance to me got thrown right out the window as soon as Ishida went to HM, there he slaughtered hollows left right and centre, some Gillians which could be comprised of hundreds of souls...

    No one gave a damn then

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Menos devour other hollows but I don't think it is necessarily the case that souls devoured by them remain within them. It is entirely possible that menos are just one soul in the end and those who didn't retain dominance or are devoured by them simply die.

    As for the balance... well, the system is not ideal but that does not necessarily mean there is an alternative so to speak. Souls move between worlds in a constant cycle of birth and rebirth. Changing the system has the direct implication of stopping the cycle of birth and rebirth to begin with unless someone can create different worlds which can hold an infinite amount of souls each. Of course, there is also the issue of whether it would even be worth it to change the system assuming it could be changed. If changing the system requires the actual destruction of the balance then changing the system necessarily comes at the costs of immeasurable numbers of lives and souls. Just upsetting the balance now and restoring it casually cost 56000 lives approximately. Even if the system could be changes I would argue it is more practical to murder in cold blood every man, woman and quincy child than to try and change the balance system if changing the system requires so many lives and worlds to be destroyed.

    The system does not actually encourage atrocities so to speak. It was the quincy who removed thousands upon thousands of hollow souls which lead to the shinigami response we saw. The whole thing could have easily avoided if the quincy had not willingly attempted to destroy the balance and risk a huge amount of lives. The only glitch the system has are the quincy so to speak. And lets be fair, every hollow they slay is a hollow which stops existing altogether and never gets to be reborn. A quincy killing a single hollow regardless of what the hollow did (whether it is rape, baby eating or just standard soul eating) should be considered way worst by quite a bit than murder. Killing a single hollow does not upset the balance however it is still an atrocity simply because it was removed from its chance to be reborn into a perfectly innocent, new and perfectly normal human being. In the case that quincy actually do that to any soul they slay they have effectively removed yamamoto and if we trust a few theories even masaki from existence altogether. Without the quincy souls simply move between worlds. With quincy souls get a fate worst than death itself worlds are placed at risk.

    To be completely fair the shinigami even allowing quincy to fight even in the most extreme circumstances is already lenient so to speak. Why in gods name having a soul altogether removed from existence is preferable to waiting for a shinigami to show up?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member im over hyped's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Menos devour other hollows but I don't think it is necessarily the case that souls devoured by them remain within them. It is entirely possible that menos are just one soul in the end and those who didn't retain dominance or are devoured by them simply die.

    As for the balance... well, the system is not ideal but that does not necessarily mean there is an alternative so to speak. Souls move between worlds in a constant cycle of birth and rebirth. Changing the system has the direct implication of stopping the cycle of birth and rebirth to begin with unless someone can create different worlds which can hold an infinite amount of souls each. Of course, there is also the issue of whether it would even be worth it to change the system assuming it could be changed. If changing the system requires the actual destruction of the balance then changing the system necessarily comes at the costs of immeasurable numbers of lives and souls. Just upsetting the balance now and restoring it casually cost 56000 lives approximately. Even if the system could be changes I would argue it is more practical to murder in cold blood every man, woman and quincy child than to try and change the balance system if changing the system requires so many lives and worlds to be destroyed.

    The system does not actually encourage atrocities so to speak. It was the quincy who removed thousands upon thousands of hollow souls which lead to the shinigami response we saw. The whole thing could have easily avoided if the quincy had not willingly attempted to destroy the balance and risk a huge amount of lives. The only glitch the system has are the quincy so to speak. And lets be fair, every hollow they slay is a hollow which stops existing altogether and never gets to be reborn. A quincy killing a single hollow regardless of what the hollow did (whether it is rape, baby eating or just standard soul eating) should be considered way worst by quite a bit than murder. Killing a single hollow does not upset the balance however it is still an atrocity simply because it was removed from its chance to be reborn into a perfectly innocent, new and perfectly normal human being. In the case that quincy actually do that to any soul they slay they have effectively removed yamamoto and if we trust a few theories even masaki from existence altogether. Without the quincy souls simply move between worlds. With quincy souls get a fate worst than death itself worlds are placed at risk.

    To be completely fair the shinigami even allowing quincy to fight even in the most extreme circumstances is already lenient so to speak. Why in gods name having a soul altogether removed from existence is preferable to waiting for a shinigami to show up?
    not much is known about the bleach rebirth/ balance cycle other then what rukia said at the start, im pretty sure there is a lot of info conveniently left out. the ones who runs things from the shadows always puts out lies and half truth to the public, and keeps everyone divided [ royal guard and king are too shady]. since this is a manga i have to use bleach logic and say all souls are turned into soylent green so the soul king can eat them, then he gives birth to hollows, quincy, and shinagamy to keep balance. 'everything you know peasants is a lie'- soul king . its easy to blame qunicies when they are viewed as bad guys and SS as good guys. the victors write history after all. we need to here the quincy side. both sides are guilty of atrocities, there should be no double standards in which atrocity was just/unjust. there is a lot of bad blood between both sides. both sides dont trust eachother. if i was a quincy i will not wait for a shinagamy to show up if a hollow is around, im killing the hollow. just like you dont wait for the cops to show up if some person puts your life or someone else in danger. it will be interesting if quincie can use the souls of the hollow/ ect they have killed.
    I used to be a great female character, but then i took a sword to the chest twice by a imbecile .

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Well, the comparison you make between a quincy and cops does not really apply in this context, specially bleach context. Quincy aren't just killing hollows, they remove them from existence altogether which is entirely different from just dying. Lets suppose you have an scenario where a hollow is attacking a human or a plus and there is a quincy there. The quincy has the option to act or to not act.

    Now, lets supposed the quincy acts and saves the human. What is the result? A human life is saved and a soul is doomed to non existence.

    Now lets supposed the quincy does not act and waits for a shinigami to show up. Lets just assume the shinigami was getting laid that day and got there late. The human would die and then the shinigami would kill the hollow. End result is that 2 souls go to SS. Even if the soul got eaten by the hollow odds are the soul is simply reborn. So the worst case scenario is a soul going to SS (that of the hollow) and another one is reborn at some point.

    Which is worst? I would argue that the first scenario is the objectively worst one if a global perspective is taken. You get 1 souls getting removed from existence (which I can't stress enough, is worst than death) and another one moves on to SS. In the other one no soul is doomed to non existence.

    Now, in regards to the balance, the issue here is that so far everything suggests the balance of souls is a very real thing and the consequences of tampering with it are equally real. heck, there was a chapter dedicated to the quincy discussing its destruction altogether not that long ago. Now, at the very least it is a fact that the balance of souls is a real thing. So far the manga has not actually denied or even suggested the possibility of the balance thing and the consequences of it being tampered with being as bad as it has said many times.

    Now, the manga has made the point that the shinigami and quincy fight the other because their values are different, because their values are incompatible, because they both believe they are fighting for justice. And that very well might be true. However even in that scenario the manga has yet to suggest we are merely getting the winner's side of the story in regards to a few facts. The manga has confirmed the balance of souls being a real thing and we have seen the quincy actively try to destroy it. The quincy trying to destroy the balance of souls only makes sense assuming there are consequences to doing it to begin with. Even if the manga has left some room for there to be more about the destruction of the balance it stands to reason there are consequences to having it destroyed or tampered with at least.

    Anyways, with what we have seen so far I don't think the manga is heading in a direction where everything we know about the balance will not be true(its existence has been accounted for on both sides at least). Rather than that my impression is that by tampering with the balance the quincy will be doing something which is perfectly logical according to their justice. The key here would be that they would be doing it not because the whole balance thingy is a lie but rather because every life lost will be an affordable and necessary sacrifice and a justifiable means to an end. It wouldn't even be surprising that in a near future we have a discussion about whether or not the balance should have been destroyed at all.... with the long term implications of either being equally costly.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member im over hyped's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Quote:
    Well, the comparison you make between a quincy and cops does not really apply in this context, specially bleach context. Quincy aren't just killing hollows, they remove them from existence altogether which is entirely different from just dying. Lets suppose you have an scenario where a hollow is attacking a human or a plus and there is a quincy there. The quincy has the option to act or to not act.

    Now, lets supposed the quincy acts and saves the human. What is the result? A human life is saved and a soul is doomed to non existence.
    both scenarios suck, and i would hate to be forced to pick one. if i had to i would pick the one i can live with. im not going to watch a person die when i could have saved them. considering the quincy care about the living more and shinagami cares about the dead more. i guess a good questions would be what will happen when no souls get destroyed, will destroying souls be needed for balance? the souls that gets eaten, what happens to them? if they are alive in the hollow will they be condemned to hell if the hollow go there? life in SS looks like it sucks if you are not rich, a noble, or shinagami.

    Quote Quote:
    Now, in regards to the balance, the issue here is that so far everything suggests the balance of souls is a very real thing and the consequences of tampering with it are equally real. heck, there was a chapter dedicated to the quincy discussing its destruction altogether not that long ago. Now, at the very least it is a fact that the balance of souls is a real thing. So far the manga has not actually denied or even suggested the possibility of the balance thing and the consequences of it being tampered with being as bad as it has said many times.
    hopefully a member of the RG goes more in depth about it, even if its a lie to get ichigo on there side.

    Quote Quote:
    Anyways, with what we have seen so far I don't think the manga is heading in a direction where everything we know about the balance will not be true(its existence has been accounted for on both sides at least). Rather than that my impression is that by tampering with the balance the quincy will be doing something which is perfectly logical according to their justice. The key here would be that they would be doing it not because the whole balance thingy is a lie but rather because every life lost will be an affordable and necessary sacrifice and a justifiable means to an end. It wouldn't even be surprising that in a near future we have a discussion about whether or not the balance should have been destroyed at all.... with the long term implications of either being equally costly.
    maybe not in that direction, but i hope it makes sense. i don't want more questions than answers. bleach doesn't need more plot holes.
    I used to be a great female character, but then i took a sword to the chest twice by a imbecile .

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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    I hope the balance actually will collaps, it will make the whole story seem more realistic, more close, more dramatic, and give Ichigo motivation, possibility to save the whole world, which I think would be really interesting, in contrast to just save the Soul King or whatever boring outcome.

    I don't want to feel "So, that was that?" at the end of Bleach, I wan't something huge, something that really can thrill me!

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    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Well, if the balance does colapse then it would mean the end of the world though. I guess the best case scenario in that regard is that ichigo prevents the balance from being broken by a small margin unless it turns out there really isn't a balance of souls.

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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, if the balance does colapse then it would mean the end of the world though. I guess the best case scenario in that regard is that ichigo prevents the balance from being broken by a small margin unless it turns out there really isn't a balance of souls.
    Quite true, that is also somewhat what I tend to believe.
    But thinking about it, do we know what actually will happen if the world of the living and SS would were to collaps into each others? and what about HM?
    What did Urahara mean by the destruction when he discussed it with Aizen?

    Perhaps it would only cause huge chaos, but not the end of the world? For example if all spirits suddenly would be roaming in the world of the living, causing a lot of chaos interacting with the world of the living?

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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Well, the explanation given is that one world will spill into the other.... If we had people from one side roaming the other it would mean they survived the spilling to begin with. Of course then there is the other side that has to survive being spilled over.

    The concept does have a weird aspect. We are talking about an imbalance of souls however the imbalance is not just a surge of souls rushing to the other side but rather the worlds collapsing. I find that idea a tad strange... Anyways, a world spilling into the other has the implication of the two places basically crashing into the other. Perhaps like a crash of dimensions....Anyways, if the world physically spill into the other as the manga has suggested then I don't see how people on either side would survive. Wouldn't spilled world crush everything of the other? I guess that is indeed a too literal explanation on something which the manga has been very vague on.

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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Well, the explanation given is that one world will spill into the other.... If we had people from one side roaming the other it would mean they survived the spilling to begin with. Of course then there is the other side that has to survive being spilled over.

    The concept does have a weird aspect. We are talking about an imbalance of souls however the imbalance is not just a surge of souls rushing to the other side but rather the worlds collapsing. I find that idea a tad strange... Anyways, a world spilling into the other has the implication of the two places basically crashing into the other. Perhaps like a crash of dimensions....Anyways, if the world physically spill into the other as the manga has suggested then I don't see how people on either side would survive. Wouldn't spilled world crush everything of the other? I guess that is indeed a too literal explanation on something which the manga has been very vague on.
    Nice thoughts
    Especially if only one world will survive the collaps, what if that is what the Quincy are planning? To destroy the realm of SS while maintaining the world of the living?
    Possibly they could escape the "balance" issue if they did that.

    But then how will souls be reborn without SS? Could the Quincy have a plan for that?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member im over hyped's Avatar
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantized View Post
    Nice thoughts
    Especially if only one world will survive the collaps, what if that is what the Quincy are planning? To destroy the realm of SS while maintaining the world of the living?
    Possibly they could escape the "balance" issue if they did that.

    But then how will souls be reborn without SS? Could the Quincy have a plan for that?
    if i remember correctly SS destroyed a realm in the first movie with a big ass cannon if that counts. im pretty sure souls have been reborn even before the formation of SS. what if TWL, HM, and SS where originally one, but someone decided the split them up for some reason. i think the quincy have a plan, it would be dumb if they didn't.
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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by im over hyped View Post
    if i remember correctly SS destroyed a realm in the first movie with a big ass cannon if that counts. im pretty sure souls have been reborn even before the formation of SS. what if TWL, HM, and SS where originally one, but someone decided the split them up for some reason. i think the quincy have a plan, it would be dumb if they didn't.
    Indeed that seems to be the case, that souls has evolved naturally in the same pattern as humans has, even the Soul King.
    The Soul King himself seems to like people who are strong or very innovative (The Royal Guard, Urahara, Ichigo).
    Why would he be so interested in people like this, especially Urahara, if he was all knowing, all powerful.
    So he can't really be a God per say, right? More like a King, and ironically that's also what he's called "Soul King", so perhaps this is evidence enough that the Soul King is merely just a really powerful being that evolved at some point in early history of humans.
    This would also justify Aizen being cable of becoming the Soul King, it's kinda impossible to become God after all (Well I suppose).

    So if that is the case, then the realms also probably wasn't there to begin with, I agree.
    Natural evolution seems to be the key drive.

    But other questions come up...
    Where did Souls originate from in the first place? Is there a true God above the Soul King? or could it just be a mystery never to be explained in the manga? something else?

    So did the Soul King create the realms, and thereby the soul balance?
    If so, what would happen if they came together again? Chaos? Destruction?

    But like you hinted towards (I think), something the Soul King can't create per say is the creating of Souls, and Souls being reborn, however he seems to be able to manipulate the flow.
    This sounds logical if holding natural evolution as key drive behind the whole Bleach world, if so, then the Soul King himself is a product of evolution, thererby he's a product of the creation of Souls.

    But that raises another question yet again, what did make the Soul King that powerful in the first place? It's not like he had a Hougyoku like Aizen did O.õ

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    Re: What do you think would happen to the balance?

    If the soul king was a sort of god in a conventional western way so to speak then the notion of someone taking his seat would be absurd. So far we have seen aizen intent on taking the seat of the soul king and juhabach at least aims to kill him so far. So far it seems the soul king is perhaps simply an exceptionally powerful being (although perhaps he can be opposed by normal beings like shinigami or quincy) with the duty of holding little things like reality and dimensions together.

    The soul king does seem to have the ability to create souls though. The royal guard actually made that point. The royal key is basically made of souls and the soul king seems to have the ability to create and instil them on his servants.

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