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Thread: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

  1. #136
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Dark Night's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    I guessed you didn't want Galatea to die Miata awakening isn't out of the options (though everyone and their dog nowadays can apparently use yoki synchronization, so someone would probably succeed in pulling her back).

    Anyway, the Rabona situation feels indeed contrived. Perhaps Yagi will manage to pluck our strings, but I'm not really expecting much. I guess that's it: expect nothing and you will not be disappointed.
    Shiro 2

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
    Recreating Pieta? Not even close...

    Claymores at Pieta were divided into five teams, only 3 single digits were there and the most important thing - Claymores at Pieta were outnumbered by AB.

    This is totally different: one strong AB against 40+ Claymores, 7 of them are single digits - against single AB.

    This is total carnage for Claymores, even if they lose couple of warriors they will still kill it. Here's an real life example: Tiger tank against 10 Shermans: Tiger tank will probably destroy 3 Shermans, but when they get in range the rest 7 will blow the Tiger apart - no matter if they are much weaker than their opponent.

    Like I said, total carnage. Europa has nothing to look up in Rabona, she will die in the end.

    ---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 AM ----------



    To be perfectly fair, without Organization there are no more Yoma, AB's and Claymores. So it is perfectly logical to wipe them all out because their numbers cannot be renewed anymore. And because all of them are gathered at one place it is even easier to do it.

    inb4 Mainland comes with new shipment of Yoma and AB
    Yet, we know that if a single AO was out there, the number of Claymores would not matter at all.
    Same thing with Alicia and Beth.
    She was against some fifteen or so upper tier AB and she took them out effortlessly, since she was much greater in power than them all.

    It's just the power gap that matters.
    Another example is Teresa.
    She was number 1, but she easily took down numbers 2 to 5, who outnumbered her.
    Why? Because the power gap between ranks 1 and 2 were more than threefold, probably more than tenfold.

    And then we also have the case of Cassandra. Remember that when Yagi narrated her past, he describes, "At that time, the number 1 position's power was absolute".
    And Cassandra tore many Claymores apart when she went for Roxanne.

    What really matters here is how much closer Europa is near to an AO-level strength than a Number 2- level AB.

    Because as you can see, the same goes for ABs and Claymores.
    There is a HUGE exponential power gap between rank 2 ABs and AO-level ABs, as shown by Rigaldo and Isley over and over.
    I think Cassandra is one of the higher tier AOs, so on a scale of power;
    Rank 3 AB 10
    Rank 2 AB 15
    Rank 1 AO 150

    She's possibly near 100-120 or so.

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  4. #138
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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    I was hoping some claymore would die. Or else it would be very disappointing (as it is now).

    For the past 2 years only Alicia and Beth died.

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    @ Whirlzap

    To hear Chronos talk, Europa's attitude is the only thing that kept her from becoming No. 1. That would suggest she has the power, or at the very least that she (as a warrior) was stronger than a No. 2.

    An awakened No. 2 is nowhere close to an AO indeed, so for Chronos to even mention it tells me she is closer to an AO than she is to Octavia or Rigaldo. And it makes sense, since it wasn't the lack of power that kept her from reaching that rank.

    As for the difference between No. 2 and 3 (I assume you mean awakened?), it's difficult to tell, and that is odd. The difference in power exists when they are Claymores, so it should be there when they awaken, yet Octavia (No. 2) doesn't really look different from Chronos (No. 4). Hell, you even get the impression he could hold his own against her, which doesn't really make sense.

    Anyway, 10 and 15 look too close (though it could be true, pertinent to what I just said above). I'd say:

    No. 3: 10
    No. 2: 20 - 30

    Did you mean 100 - 120 for Europa? If so then we agree.

    Which then puts her simply too far above any of the Claymores present in Rabona.
    Shiro 2

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Goral's Avatar
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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Gernot has published his translation. Be sure to thank him:

    http://mangahelpers.com/t/gernot/releases/37735

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    So it's not that they cross the limit, rather the limit is pushed a bit further? In other words the limit is still there. I wonder how far they can keep pushing it back.

    Thought-like things... is that what helps yoki keep the identity of its owner? Almost as if it's alive... But Daae just confirmed the speculations we had about flesh affinity interfering with awakening.

    Since Clare has Teresa's actual flesh and blood instead of a yoma, Teresa's presence should be even more pronounced. This might be what differentiate Clare from the other three. Her limit might be even further away.

    I'm thinking they can't half-awaken the way she did in Pieta because there's not enough love (....) in the yoma inside them. Or if they can, Clare can go even beyond, to the brink of fully awakening (think Jean).

    Interesting words from Europa. What makes an Abyssal One an AO? Too bad she didn't elaborate.

    BTW, why is Riful-Doll said to have gained an inexhaustible source of energy? Sure the Destroyer is huge, but it has its limit too. Unless Priscilla is starting to hit hers as well? I noticed her regeneration seems to be slowing down. Instead of limbs appearing almost instantly, we can now see the process.
    Shiro 2

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    By Pieta I meant the situation with Rigaldo. The other ABs there were irrelevant, he by himself could have annihilated the entire team had Clare not been there.

    I do not think the situation is that different here. For one thing, Europa is not simply just 'strong'. For another, I think you are taking her offense rather lightly.
    It is different, Rigaldo at least had some allies - Europa is all alone against super powerful Claymores.

    Quote Quote:
    Your analogy with tanks (my limited understanding of tanks notwithstanding) doesn't really illustrate your point. It would apply, in my opinion, if they were facing a No. 1.
    Let me enlighten you then:
    Tiger I Tank - probably the most powerful tank of the WW2.
    Sherman Medium Tank - one of the most produced tanks of the war.

    Tiger is more powerful, better armored and have longer range than Shermans. He is superior in every regard to Shermans, just like Europa is to Claymores.
    But in the end it is not the power or skill that will prevail - it is numbers. And in this scenario Europa will be slain as soon as 40 Claymore starts to cut her.

    Quote Quote:
    Apart from the fact that Europa is much stronger than any of them, she has a few more advantages, such as regeneration, and reach (I emphasized this point previously).
    Again, she is facing far superiour numbers, she will fail terribly. Not to mention that Claymores like Galatea have very unique and very powerful abilities.

    Quote Quote:
    She can fight while keeping her vital points out of reach by extending her tentacles (which, I'll note again, appear to be really sharp).
    She cannot evade all of the attacks, and judging by the number of CLaymores she will have no free space to evade the attacks. If Galatea can control her via her special ability she is toast.

    Quote Quote:
    That is why I think she is dangerous. She can disable you before you even get close enough to damage her. Which is why a strategy is needed, one that involves surprising her with Galatea and Raftella's abilities. I don't see them winning if they just try to take her head on.
    She can disable 1, 2... maybe 3 or 5 if she is lucky. The rest 40 will hit her and kill her.
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

    -Emperor of Mankind.


  10. #143
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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
    It is different, Rigaldo at least had some allies - Europa is all alone against super powerful Claymores.
    You missed the point I was making: that even though those allies were there, Rigaldo didn't need them. Had Isley sent him there alone, he would have demolished them all. That's how much of a gap there was between him and the Claymores there.

    And there are no super powerful Claymores there. At best Galatea and Miata.


    Quote Quote:
    Let me enlighten you then:
    Tiger I Tank - probably the most powerful tank of the WW2.
    Sherman Medium Tank - one of the most produced tanks of the war.

    Tiger is more powerful, better armored and have longer range than Shermans. He is superior in every regard to Shermans,
    How much faster is the Tiger compared to the Sherman? How much stronger? How much more maneuverable? Your analogy tells me nothing other than that the Tiger is more powerful than Sherman. It is flawed in that, among other things, the Sherman can afford to use long range combat, a luxury the Claymores don't have.


    Quote Quote:
    just like Europa is to Claymores.
    But in the end it is not the power or skill that will prevail - it is numbers. And in this scenario Europa will be slain as soon as 40 Claymore starts to cut her.

    Again, she is facing far superiour numbers, she will fail terribly. Not to mention that Claymores like Galatea have very unique and very powerful abilities.

    She cannot evade all of the attacks, and judging by the number of CLaymores she will have no free space to evade the attacks. If Galatea can control her via her special ability she is toast.

    She can disable 1, 2... maybe 3 or 5 if she is lucky. The rest 40 will hit her and kill her.
    Why is it that you dismiss her strength as if it's nothing? She is not just a random powerful AB, she is close to a goddamn Abyssal One in power!

    And perhaps because of that dismissal you seem to think every single Claymore there can touch her. Nope. Show me anyone there close to that level. Anyone with such speed. Anyone with that kind of offense. These are the same warriors who couldn't do anything against Cassandra, Roxanne and Hysteria, and Europa is likely stronger than them.

    Moreover, everyone there who is not a single digit is fodder to Europa. The difference is simply too huge to be overcome. They would be dead before they even realized what was going on.

    Galatea, Miata, Audrey and maybe Rachel. These are the only warriors I believe stand a remote chance of not getting severely outclassed right away. Raftella is an unknown. Think of how a No. 1 would be superior to them, scale it up, and then some more.

    Beyond that, they cannot attack her all at the same time, or they will get in each others way. Those Claymores require range to swing. The best thing would be to come at her from all angles (which is what you imply by her not having room to move).

    But what is keeping Europa from whipping her razor-tentacles around (she has like ten of them) as they try to attack her? Aim for the legs and then slice through. Or do you claim that everyone there can track them? And you keep forgetting or ignoring the fact that they have to get close to her to strike, while she can do that without exposing her vital areas.

    It's like you didn't read what I said before. They can't go in blind, just relying on sheer numbers to overcome her because she's 'just' one AB. That would cost them. They need a plan, using Galatea and Raftella's abilities. That is the best way they can defeat her, I acknowledged that.

    Will things happen that way? No. Not because they are strong enough to face her, but simply because, as Yagi has been doing lately, Europa will end up killed by her own stupidity. Just like Hysteria, and Yagi has already laid the foundation stones to that.
    Shiro 2

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    The smartest scenario would be for Miata to engage Europa while Galatea messes with her movements and Raftella messes with her mind (can she do that to awakend beings is the question). Audrey/Rachel/Nina/Dietrich etc would wait for any openings and then attack. The rest of the claymores are nothing more than cannon fodder.

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    @Dark Night

    I will not reply to entire post, I will simply say this:
    Europa is powerful, you are right. She is AO level and she is dangerous.
    However, Claymores have numbers on their side now, overwhelming numbers.
    They even have strong Claymores like Galatea who can manipulate yoki ( if she did it on Dauf she can do it with Europa too ) and Miata who have super-strength and power. They also have Rafutela who can invade Europa's mind and make her see hallucinations and they have the others to make their attack too.
    Claymores have numbers and powerful individuals at their side, the battle is already highly favorable at their side because I don't think that Europa is as smart as Riful or Isley. One of the reasons why is because she let her hunger to overcome her reason, and that is one more bonus for Claymores.

    Yes, Europa is powerful, no doubt about that. But one wise man once said: "quantity has a quality of it's own". And that rule applies here, especially when Claymores have smart warriors and powerful abilities to use against their opponent.

    I will however answer you to this question because you asked:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight
    How much faster is the Tiger compared to the Sherman? How much stronger? How much more maneuverable? Your analogy tells me nothing other than that the Tiger is more powerful than Sherman. It is flawed in that, among other things, the Sherman can afford to use long range combat, a luxury the Claymores don't have.
    Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E:
    Armor: 120mm.
    Main Armament 88mm gun.
    Operational range: 110–195 km.
    Speed: 38 km/h.
    Weight: 59 tons.
    Effective range: 2000 - 3000 meters.

    M4 Sherman:
    Armor: 76 mm.
    Main Armament: 75mm gun.
    Operational range: 193 km.
    Speed: 40 to 48 km/h.
    Weight: 30.3 tonnes.
    Effective range: 588 m - 619 m.

    As you can see, except for the speed Tiger is much more superior in any regard ( like Europa is to individual Claymore ). But the most important part is this:

    Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E: numbers built: 1,347.
    M4 Sherman: numbers built: 49,234.

    No matter if the Sherman was weak, it compensate that with numbers and allies has luxury to sacrifice even 10 Shermans to bring down one Tiger.
    Same will be at Rabona now, Europa will fall to overwhelming attacks from multiple Claymores. Claymores can lose several of their numbers if the result is putting down a powerful AB like Europa.

    All in all, Europa will lose this battle. She will surely kill several Claymores, but in the end she will lose.

    edit: Rigaldo was different, he fought against Claymores who have less experience in fighting awakens, he only had few single digits to take care of, he attacked them by surprise and there were only 24 Claymores there.
    This is so different, not only that their opponent doesn't look too smart, he openly showed herself and Claymores are already prepared to meet her, they also have double the numbers from Pieta and they have several crazy powerful individuals.

    There is also a chance that Clare will deviate from Cassandra battle to kill Europa because of certain individual she care about that is right now in that city. And this time I don't think that even Miria's work will prevent her from saving Raki, if she need too.
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

    -Emperor of Mankind.


  13. #146
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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    @ Brother Coa

    Why is it do you think Irene said she wouldn't normally fight Teresa, no matter how many Claymores she had with her? Because she knew the gap was too large to be bridged by numbers alone (and remember, she had no idea about Teresa's true strength).

    How is it that Miria managed to defeat upwards of 30 Claymores, if numbers matter that much? Because she was too strong for them. Not to mention she was actively trying not to kill them, which required her to hold back. Europa has no such restrictions.

    Rockwell Hill with Hysteria? The same. In these two situations, the numbers were there, but failed to do anything.

    Pieta would be the same if Rigaldo had been there alone. Experience fighting ABs can only go so far; at a certain point the difference in power becomes too much. Not a single one there could keep up with him, therefore they couldn't have done anything.

    Numbers alone are not enough, they have to be of good quality as well. Which is where (among other things) your tank analogy fails. All these Claymores can't be compared to a Sherman tank. They don't all have the same fighting capabilities.

    Assuming Audrey is a Sherman, Nina or Dietrich can't be one as well. The difference is too vast. Even if I was generous enough to compare all the single digits to a Sherman tank, No. 10 to 47 are going to be progressively worse.

    There was never any doubt that Europa was going to die there; I believe I mentioned Yagi is getting rid of all of them. But he has a track record of doing it in really contrived ways, and that pisses me off, because you can never have a 'fair' fight.

    It so happens that Europa doesn't seem that bright. Then she will, as we both mentioned, let her hunger overcome reason regardless of the fact that she will be fighting for her life.

    How dumb do you have to be to realize that it's better to get the hell out and find food somewhere else that won't fight back? Hell, that's her M.O., avoiding troublesome situations.

    But we both know she will do no such thing. She will stupidly continue to fight until she is killed, or feign death but with Galatea there, she is still dead.

    Hysteria had her vanity, Roxanne her obsession, Europa her hunger and so on. You could say that those are traits of their personalities, but I can't help but realize that only the 'bad guys' have them. So I see them as nothing but weaknesses Yagi put there to gimp them. Ok, personal rant over.

    Anyway, if you noticed the trend in examples I gave above, the nature of abilities is primarily what is going to win the battle (you touched on this as well, Galatea and Raftella), combined with Europa's own plot-induced stupidity. Numbers might come in, but after the threat she represents has been greatly diminished.

    The point you made about Clare rushing there to save Raki, I can actually see that happen. If she does participate in the battle, they have an assured win. The QS is nasty.
    Shiro 2

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    As for the difference between No. 2 and 3 (I assume you mean awakened?), it's difficult to tell, and that is odd. The difference in power exists when they are Claymores, so it should be there when they awaken, yet Octavia (No. 2) doesn't really look different from Chronos (No. 4). Hell, you even get the impression he could hold his own against her, which doesn't really make sense.
    Well, there's the fact that Chronos is male, and Ermita has stated before that their overall power exceeded the females'. As such, Chronos's power may indeed be similar to Octavia's, i.e. his power as the male No. 4 may be comparable to an average female No. 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    BTW, why is Riful-Doll said to have gained an inexhaustible source of energy? Sure the Destroyer is huge, but it has its limit too. Unless Priscilla is starting to hit hers as well? I noticed her regeneration seems to be slowing down. Instead of limbs appearing almost instantly, we can now see the process.
    I think Dae was referring to the fact that she had absorbed the Destroyer's ability to drain yoki, as such, as long as she can land a hit on Priscilla, she has an inexhaustible reservoir at hand. Now, she's screwed if Priscilla manages to up her speed and evade 100% of attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Night View Post
    @ Brother Coa

    Why is it do you think Irene said she wouldn't normally fight Teresa, no matter how many Claymores she had with her? Because she knew the gap was too large to be bridged by numbers alone (and remember, she had no idea about Teresa's true strength).

    How is it that Miria managed to defeat upwards of 30 Claymores, if numbers matter that much? Because she was too strong for them. Not to mention she was actively trying not to kill them, which required her to hold back. Europa has no such restrictions.

    Rockwell Hill with Hysteria? The same. In these two situations, the numbers were there, but failed to do anything.

    Pieta would be the same if Rigaldo had been there alone. Experience fighting ABs can only go so far; at a certain point the difference in power becomes too much. Not a single one there could keep up with him, therefore they couldn't have done anything.

    Numbers alone are not enough, they have to be of good quality as well. Which is where (among other things) your tank analogy fails. All these Claymores can't be compared to a Sherman tank. They don't all have the same fighting capabilities.
    I agree, and note that the first three examples were based on warriors. Of course, Teresa and Hysteria weren't your run-of-the-mill No. 1 warriors, but really, we have no "regular" No. 1 warriors, of which Europa may be comparable to, to base judgment on. Alicia? Nope. Cassandra? She got cut up but she said she didn't bother evading. Anyway, back to the case in point, the gap will become even more pronounced with an awakened. So yeah, barring plot-induced stupidity *cough* Hysteria *cough* I'd say it's not looking good. It'll be up to Galatea, Miata, Clarice (whose only contribution power-wise is to get hurt to boost Miata's strength) and... Anastasia's Magical Hair Technique of Abyssal Doom to even things out. They should hope that it'll be enough.
    Last edited by Fermat; May 05, 2013 at 06:42 AM.

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Either way, she is dead meat. She will be killed in 2 to 3 chapters.
    She may kill some Claymores, but that's it.
    "The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

    -Emperor of Mankind.


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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fermat View Post
    Well, there's the fact that Chronos is male, and Ermita has stated before that their overall power exceeded the females'. As such, Chronos's power may indeed be similar to Octavia's, i.e. his power as the male No. 4 may be comparable to an average female No. 2.
    Ah, I had forgotten that. Makes you wonder how strong Rigaldo really was. Or Isley for that matter; I do remember Chronos stating that he was really strong.


    Quote Quote:
    I think Dae was referring to the fact that she had absorbed the Destroyer's ability to drain yoki, as such, as long as she can land a hit on Priscilla, she has an inexhaustible reservoir at hand. Now, she's screwed if Priscilla manages to up her speed and evade 100% of attacks.
    Makes sense. We might witness Priscilla get serious, she is no longer smiling. Though now I'm wondering why she hasn't used her wings and fingers, those attacks looked deadly.

    And now that you mention it, Anastasia's hair (shudder) could prove to be effective. If she prepares something like a web, Europa might get entangled in it (sadly enough I can see her falling for that, unless she is indeed a sensor).

    @ Brother Coa

    That's how the cookie crumbles, I guess, but I can't say I will be happy with it. If only Yagi could do it in a less aneurysm-inducing manner.
    Shiro 2

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    Re: Claymore 138 Discussions /139 Predictions

    Personally i think that in Claymore quality is A LOT more important than quantity, infact i never saw a case where simply having more warriors was effective against a stronger opponent.

    Said that, Europa may be the closest to abyssal-level (but she's clearly quite far from abyssal level), but her real problem against the warriors won't be that they are numerous, her problem will be that between those warriors there are some very dangerous elements like Gala, Raftella and Miata.
    Actually, Miata alone has a potential that is by far greater than Europa so i don't agree that if Europa will die it will be 'cause she is stupid, she'll die because she is not strong enough.........not to mention that it's even possible that Miria's team (beside Claire probably) could decide to return to Rabona if the battles take a bad turn and if that happens Europa has no chance at all.

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