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Thread: Biggest winners of NPoT

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member -Ken-'s Avatar
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    I think even Rai needs to have a blind spot. I think World of Ice would work against Rai. However, I think Sanada's In will triumph Atobe.

    And as far as we are given the information, Yukimura's Yips in PoT won't trigger unless he's winning. I don't see that happening with WoI. So Atobe might stand a chance. We're also given information that Muga can't copy Zone. So it's not like Yukimura can seal it off the same way. We might see him winning via Irie style, though. But it seems like Yukimura have blind spot due to him losing some points when it's not even related to his skeleton.
    Last edited by -Ken-; April 07, 2013 at 08:21 PM.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Atobe Kingdom is some physical truth about the world that is independent of the opponent's action so things like In would have no effect on it. For example in the brief moment Momoshiro has the nature insight he can see there's this rock on the ground so if he hits the rock it'd be a very tough shot for the opponent to return, and that if he hits the ball to this location the sun is in the way so the opponent can't see the ball easily. Being unable to predict your opponent does not change where the said rock or the said sun is. Atobe Kingdom is simply a more absolute version of that. He's basically able to see like your joint can only bend a certain direction so it can't reach a certain spot no matter what, unless you dislocated your joint like Mouri did but you can only do that once.

    Even WoI is pretty close to uncounterable. Irie is the only person who has shown to have no blind spots and it seems to be something special about him. That is, I don't see Byodouin pull the same 'I have no blind spots' deal because otherwise that means after a certain threshold everyone automatically has no blind spots and that just sounds dumb.

    Right now the only way to stop AK is if you have Tezuka Zone, though I suspect if he played Sanada or Oni now it's going to be something like "The Black Aura/smoke obscures Atobe's vision and prevents him from seeing the opponent's skeleton!" because he's obviously a tier (or more) below these guys.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I think even Rai needs to have a blind spot. I think World of Ice would work against Rai. However, I think Sanada's In will triumph Atobe.
    I guess we'll see Rai and Black Aura's blind spot in the next match. They can't just cream the No. 2 and 6 of the nation like that.

  4. #19
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexisMeade View Post
    I guess we'll see Rai and Black Aura's blind spot in the next match. They can't just cream the No. 2 and 6 of the nation like that.
    The blind spot isn't really relevent when talking about anyone that isn't Atobe. As far as we know we could have Ryoga play Byodouin and Atobe could be looking and say 'what the heck these newbs have a ton of blind spots!' and it still doesn't even matter because he's the only person who can actually see them directly, so for the rest of the POT world they're really not concerned with their own blind spots since their opponent, unless it happens to be Atobe, can't see it anyway. Likewise the fact their opponent has blind spot don't matter because anybody besides Atobe can't see them directly anyway.

    Now since Byodouin and Oni has shown to be physically invisible to lesser players in their flashback this gives a convenient solution to the fact that AK is basically invinicible unless the enemy has Tezuka Zone. Against a high tier guy with a fancy aura it can simply be a 'XYZ's aura prevents Atobe from seeing their true nature'. But then this means all Atobe has to do to improve himself is to improve his vision and we can assume this is way easier than learning stuff like TnK/10 ball/shockwave ball/etc. That's why he's high tier because he just has to upgrade his vision and possibly base stats (though they're already pretty high to begin with) to be able to keep up with anybody and as a fan favorite you'll probably never see him participate in a game where he absolutely cannot see through an opponent's aura/whatever so he's always going to be competitive in the games he show up, despite being relatively weak compared to other high tier characters.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    The All-Japan arc is taking too long and too short at the same time as it is, I highly doubt we'll see Atobe vs. Sanada. But I agree even if he's relatively weak, if his opponent can't hit the ball, Atobe'll win.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Atobe basically lost to troll-mode Irie and "actually" lost to Ochi and Mouri even with Atobe Kingdom, and now we are expecting it to work against Sanada, who is one of the top 3 most talented MSers right now? I don't have enough faith to believe that. Sanada was always better than Atobe. The only time people got the misconception that he (Atobe) was better, was back during the Nationals when Yukimura said Sanada would have lost to WoI, because prior to that, Sanada trolled Atobe 6-0 every time with Zan. Even with WoI back in the Nationals, Sanada was still better. Yukimura said Sanada would have lost because he knew Sanada would have just continued spamming Zan and "playing to crush" instead of playing to win. Atobe was never better. Like Ken said, if anything, it is Yukimura > Sanada > Tezuka > Yukimura because Yukimura said himself, only he could defeat Sanada. Which means nobody else (*cough cough Atobe) can.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I think even Rai needs to have a blind spot. I think World of Ice would work against Rai. However, I think Sanada's In will triumph Atobe.

    And as far as we are given the information, Yukimura's Yips in PoT won't trigger unless he's winning. I don't see that happening with WoI. So Atobe might stand a chance. We're also given information that Muga can't copy Zone. So it's not like Yukimura can seal it off the same way. We might see him winning via Irie style, though. But it seems like Yukimura have blind spot due to him losing some points when it's not even related to his skeleton.
    I don't know if you've noticed but Atobe can't spam AK for some reason.
    Also, Atobe can't hit AK from his serve, so on Atobe service game, Yukimura can start the attacking and we know Yukimura's rallying is without question the best out of the MSers if we take out the 10ball guys (Ryoma, Tooyama, Akutsu, Sanada-pending).
    I'm sorry but we haven't been shown if Atobe isn't able to get himself into a position where can hit AK then he can't just spam it.

    Atobe isn't beating Yukimura, all it takes is Atobe and Yukimura to engage in a few rallies and Atobe is yipped. Once he is yipped he is over.
    Yukimura doesn't need to be winning Ken you're wrong.
    It was 0-0 against Sanada when the yips took him away to the 'Shadow realm'.
    Therefore Atobe will get yipped.

  9. #23
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Yukimura doesn't need to be winning in the sense of scoring a lot of points, but given what Kintarou said during the nationals, I don't think Yips will be inflicted when he's actually losing. The idea is that an image of Yukimura being able to return everything is planted in the opponent's mind and why would that be the case if you're just scoring from the first point on?
    That said, I agree with your point about Atobe not being able to spam AK as he pleases.

    To address the nationals, Sai told me this a couple days ago:
    Quote Quote:
    <Sai> for [Yukimura's] playstyle [PP5] just says that no matter the shot, he returns it effortlessly with unseen movements
    So I'm not sure whether KnS is actually supposed to work on Yukimura.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed but Atobe can't spam AK for some reason.
    Also, Atobe can't hit AK from his serve, so on Atobe service game, Yukimura can start the attacking.
    It's funny how Tannhauser Serve went from an almost impossible serve to return, to just a serve in this arc.

  11. #25
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    I already post how AK might not work here.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    On Atobe Kingdom, I do feel like it's kind of underrated.

    If you think about it, Atobe manage to score points against Irie by only Atobe Kingdom. And he wins a few point, until his knee was injured. It was only then that Irie start winning points again, making it look like the injury prevent Atobe from using the move freely.

    Yes, there's that doubles match. He can only use AK in a rather limit manner in that match. However, he must sees the weakness of "2" players. That alone makes the condition harder to fulfill. To further prove this, Once Niou start helping Atobe, Atobe start to use Atobe Kingdom really more often and in a very well manner.

    I do think Atobe will be absolute beast in Singles, as he don't have to look for absolute blind spots of 2 players.
    Simply, in doubles, it's harder to look for blind spots since there's more than 1 player.

    In Singles, AK works perfectly until his injury.

    ---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

    @Kaoz, I know that is Yukimura style. Atobe style is also "No matter what your playstyle is, it needs to have some blind spots". And We saw this to be true. Echizen score against Yukimura before even out of PoP. Also, in theory, AK blind spot should actually overlap with world of ice.
    Most of the thing I post is probably assumption if it's not a fact that I support using some evidence from the manga.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by -Ken- View Post
    I already post how AK might not work here.
    @Kaoz, I know that is Yukimura style. Atobe style is also "No matter what your playstyle is, it needs to have some blind spots". And We saw this to be true. Echizen score against Yukimura before even out of PoP. Also, in theory, AK blind spot should actually overlap with world of ice.
    Yeah, and Ryoma did that not due to Yukimura having a blind spot, due to hitting shots that had double the spin and double the power, as well as being able to move at a faster rate around the court thanks to Moveable Hyakku Ren.
    Something Atobe does not have.
    Even if Atobe finds his weak spots, he can't spam AK for even 1 straight set as we've seen let alone 2 straight sets. Therefore he will be forced into rallies with Yukimura.
    This means Atobe is getting Yipped since Yukimura is superior in terms of Technique, especially if he can rally with Hyakku Ren.

    ---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardy View Post
    It's funny how Tannhauser Serve went from an almost impossible serve to return, to just a serve in this arc.
    Tannhauser is one my fav serves. It was just so cool at Nationals.
    Then yeah, when Hiyoshi returned it I stopped caring.
    In terms of serves? Mach Serve is where its at right now.
    Although I'm looking forward to seeing Tooyama VS Oni animated since Super Megaton Deluxe Volcano Serve just looks like it will be amazing in anime.

    I think Konomi might have done this G10 arc early so he can sit back and have more time for creativity on the Special Moves that we'll see abroad or the little special upgrades he's going to give the weaker MSers. Since now, most special moves are a joke in the eyes of G6+Tokugawa.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    You can't talk about Sanada's strength without factoring his personality. "Planning to crush" is who he is. It's the only reason why he didn't smoke Tezuka 6-1 in the nationals. Any normal guy, after they see Tezuka Phantom, should say, "That's a good move, too bad I got a move (Rin) that totally shuts it down" instead of "MOAR RAI". In terms of raw stats/moveset it's Sanada > Tezuka >>> Atobe, but in terms of personality it's the other way around. In the game against Irie, Atobe said his style is to find the enemy's weakness and then totally crush them because that's the only way he could win against people better than him. Sanada is exactly the opposite. He finds the enemy's strength and then try to crush them there. Tezuka is roughly in the middle (his style really doesn't change as a function of the opponent's strengths/weaknesses).

    So against WoI Sanada isn't going to use any number of combination of his repetitore of awesome moves to sidestep it. He's going to try to return the unreturnable shot because that's what Sanada does, and he is going to fail and lose the game.

    On the subject of Yukimura, the point is that he can see the 'truth' so no technique that involves trickery of any kind is going to work on him, and of course his base stat is high enough so that even techs without trickery usually won't work. You can see that in some of his dialogue against Ryoma, like "The ball can't disappear" and "There is only one ball". He didn't use anything special to return Big Bang, which implies his base strength is certainly enough to withstand it (no surprise there).

    But the whole 'no technique works on him' is obviously a lie. He can't even nullify Tezuka Zone because otherwise there is no point for him to point out that Tezuka's Hyakuren is better due to him being able to use Tezuka Zone + Hyakuren at the same time, because if he can nullify Tezuka Zone then there's no difference between the two and the same tactic he used on Ryoma would've worked on Tezuka.

    So if he can't nullify Tezuka Zone why would he be able to nullify say, Tezuka Phantom? If you look at techs like Tezuka Zone or WoI there is no trickery involved. What these techs do seem to defy reality but they definitely do things as advertised without any trickery involved. So WoI should work on him just fine because there's no trick to WoI either.

    But of course the whole activation concept of yips is outright bogus too. If he really have to be in any sense of 'winning' then yips would never have worked on Ryoma after he activated Saiki. It doesn't get more certain than seeing that you'll win a point with Saiki and yet Ryoma got hits by yips. So Yukimura would drop some points to WoI and then just yips Atobe and that'd be game over, the same way Ryoma can see himself winning with Saiki and then got yips anyway.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Quote Originally Posted by Airgrimes View Post
    Tannhauser is one my fav serves. It was just so cool at Nationals.
    Then yeah, when Hiyoshi returned it I stopped caring.
    In terms of serves? Mach Serve is where its at right now.
    Although I'm looking forward to seeing Tooyama VS Oni animated since Super Megaton Deluxe Volcano Serve just looks like it will be amazing in anime.

    I think Konomi might have done this G10 arc early so he can sit back and have more time for creativity on the Special Moves that we'll see abroad or the little special upgrades he's going to give the weaker MSers. Since now, most special moves are a joke in the eyes of G6+Tokugawa.
    He returns it after more than 30 failed attemps... I mean, not even "he returned it but couldn't score", he literally failed 30+ times (34 IIRC). Mach Serve is prbably the best serve (and, it's "real") but Tannhauser isn't just fast and accurate, it has a COOL Drive effect on it. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I don't really like to see that serve returned so easily.

    ...and ZSS and vanish are OP lol

    ---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantron View Post
    Tezuka is roughly in the middle (his style really doesn't change as a function of the opponent's strengths/weaknesses).
    Tezuka crushes himself with his own weaknesses

  15. #29
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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    Tannhauser is still a good serve, or Ochi wouldn't have needed to use Mental Pressure in the 6-5 game on the first set. Looking at the rest of the G10 reactions they definitely expected Atobe to hold his serve if he didn't fall victim to Mental Pressure.

    Serves in POT alternate between completely irrelevent and actually pretty powerful depending on a large number of factors. For example if you're Sanada then your serve is always irrelevent (I don't think he has ever gotten an ace before). I wouldn't put too much on Tannhauser being returned by Hiyoshi to mean anything other than that it was in a 'serve irrelevent' phase of POT.

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    Re: Biggest winners of NPoT

    I think its just that Sanada has no interest in Serve practice. He doesn't need it if you look at his choice of attack.
    Also, your speech was a bit empty there since its already common knowledge Atobe cannot beat Yukimura/Sanada/Tezuka nor is he on their tier although I hope he can perhaps join that tier eventually.

    You could be onto something with you theory on "relevance or irrelevance with serves" considering how Hakamada blew his nose with the Super Megaton Deluxe Volcano Serve. And then gave an injury to Tooyama all with just one return.
    But I take my respect back from Hakamada because he looked like a complete and utter retard standing there with one knee on the ground.
    What fool would stand like that on the court?

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