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View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Yes, its just insane and wrong!

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  • Perhaps... but...

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  • No, its not all that bad.

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Thread: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

  1. #16
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Even if it is a pleasant prison it is still a prison.
    The jutsu itself can't really be considered a prison though, its more like a new alternate world for your mind to inhabit. Its a carbon copy of real life down to the slightest detail, giving you every bit as much freedom as you would have in the real world, maybe even more. The jutsu can only turn into literal prison if Madara starts putting restrictions on the ways people can live their lives... but of course thats highly likely given his personality and convictions.

    Quote Quote:
    Also won't the bodies wither and die after a while? Or did they work that kink out some how?
    Kishi loves to ignore such details. Same as the bogus with Obitos body parts being dissected and shifted through dimensions, yet he isn't bleeding out or at least going temporarily comatose whenever his brain gets split apart.

    If Kishi would ever bother to explain (which I doubt) why the real bodies outside of Mugen Tsukuyomi don't die without nourishment, hygiene and other necessities, then it would most probably come down to some bogus like Madara feeding chakra to everyone inside the illusion.
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  2. #17
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    How is infinite genjutsu any different from being a part of the 'bewildered herd' in any nation? I see no difference.

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    For the individuals caught in the Genjutsu, there wouldn't be any problems.

    As far as Genjutsu works, most people are unaware they are trapped in their minds, they perceive a fake world as real and give enemies information and other important stuff thinking they are allies or friends.

    Genjutsu also isn't easy to find you are caught in or to break out, only people with special Dojutsu or another mind inside their bodies can do it on their own. The rest usually need the help of a friend who isn't caught in the Genjutsu or are awoken by blunt trauma from the physical world.

    Mugen Tsukuyomi doesn't have such weakenesses. Because it draws natural chakra from the Juubi it cannot be perceived with Dojutsu, because Tsukuyomi alters the perception of time any kind of blunt trauma cannot be felt and because the infinite chakra of the Juubi keeps casting the jutsu constantly you cannot escape with a second mind.

    Unlike the Matrix which was a world crafted for the sake of keeping the entire human population in a collective program, Mugen Tsukuyomi is akin to a Lotus Eater Machine were your dream becomes reality.

    The Genjutsu creates a world perfect to the eyes of the victim so that everyone close to that person is alive and things like war or hatred dissapear. Things like accidents or misfortune also dissapear because the illusion eliminates probabilities and everything you do results in success because in the dream everything goes your way.

    The Matrix had nowhere near the processing power to individually simulate the ideal experiences which would make a person confortable with it's world perfectly.

    A more accurate comparison would be Inception where some people get addicted to the dreams they have because their "world" is much better than the lives they live on Earth.

    Case in point, the jutsu would really work wonders and everybody is scared for nothing because Madara doesn't let them have a say in this. Right?

    No, the real problem with Mugen Tsukuyomi is not the dream and not even Madara.

    Madara could just create a Tsukuyomi for himself and live in lunacy to death, the only reason he is pursuing an infinite version is because he can't admit to being a loser in reality.

    If he is rejecting reality to create a perfect world then everybody should follow him because that would make his decision right before his own eyes. In his conception, once everyone is in the Dream World, they would forget reality and enjoy it blissfully so Madara would retroactively be considered the saviour of humanity.

    The real problem with Tsukuyomi is that it steal the future generations from their right to exhist and prosper on their own terms.

    The Will of Fire is about the next generation carrying on the wishes of the past one and keeping the world moving foward.

    Mugen Tsukuyomi is about giving the present generation the desires it wants and sacrificing the future of everyone for it.

    People wouldn't die from the Genjutsu because time would be so warped (like inception) that they would live a million lifetimes before their bodies actually fall ill to lack of food and water.

    However, things like love of hope would cease to exhist. Humans would have children and families in a world which doesn't exhist, nothing they accomplish would matter for anybody but themselves.

    If Madara or Obito (whoever casts the jutsu) feels like keeping the physical bodies functional and decide to allow new generations to be born those children would essentially be entering in a world of ignorance with no dreams or goals for the future.

    People would live like automatons eating, sleeping and procreating when the need arise whilist their minds remain in a dream. It would be like a static world with no future.

    This is what really kills the morality of the plan, robbing the future generations of their wills so that the present one can achieve theirs. A complete antithesis to the Will of Fire.

  4. #19
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Even if it is a pleasant prison it is still a prison.
    Also won't the bodies wither and die after a while? Or did they work that kink out some how?
    I don't think it's where all the affected people are sleeping forever. More like they're awake and doing everythin they would, but without violence. I'm guessing if something bad happened, the genjutsu would force the parties involved to shrug it off and hug it off. It wouldn't stop them from eating.

  5. #20
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    How is infinite genjutsu any different from being a part of the 'bewildered herd' in any nation? I see no difference.
    Do you see any difference between cult brainwashing and being part of society?
    Meh

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanadan View Post
    Do you see any difference between cult brainwashing and being part of society?
    How is political brainwashing any different? It's called Political Propaganda. They're already fettered to the 'will of fire' rubbish, then they will be transferred to another.

  7. #22
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Will of Fire is still a choice. Just look at Orochimaru and to an extent, Danzou.

  8. #23
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Will of Fire is still a choice. Just look at Orochimaru and to an extent, Danzou.
    Pretty much this. There is more then the black and white perspective.
    Meh

  9. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jalix's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Kind of funny... the whole 'mugen tsukuyomi' bit was done in an old GI Joe episode back in the 1980's. A two parter with Shipwreck as the focus, living in an alternative world. Of course the plot and goal was different (heck, GI Joe really had more sophisticated plots... too much so for a 'children's' cartoon), but you get the idea. Also, it ranks right up there with living in the matrix in a way.

    I don't think it's right. It isn't your own free will that's making you live in a dream world. It's a maniac with a grudge against the world that wants to make the decision for you. Put it like this... Infinite Tsukuyomi is actually one of the biggest plot-holes in the manga. Tobi, Madara... they don't care about the living. Yet they want to cast this massive jutsu on the living to be in a dream world. WTF? Why not just cast the jutsu's on themselves and be done with it? In the real world, we call those people 'drug addicts'.

    Of course now we're getting tidbits here & there to clean this up... Sasuke mentioning Madara manipulating the world at his whim, and even in the
    Spoiler show
    . But still....

    And yes, it is different from 'living in the matrix'. Because the matrix was controlled by machines that still had a goal and used the humans as Duracells. lol As such, they made them reproduce, etc. I don't see much foresight with something like Infinite Tsukuyomi... though of course someting will go terribly wrong with Madara's/Tobi's control of the jyuubi anyway.
    Last edited by jalix; April 18, 2013 at 10:06 AM.

  10. #25
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Will of Fire is still a choice. Just look at Orochimaru and to an extent, Danzou.
    Which is why he only did so because he was denied the Hokage seat?

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  12. #26
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Madara has been remarkably vague as to what the Mugen Tsukiyomi will actually be like. Even if everyone alive lives out their remaining years in this genjutsu, who will reproduce? Who will grow crops to harvest so people have food to eat? Will the affected people just be forced to be nice to one another, so all it really is is a worldwide lobotomy? Or will it actually create a tangible alternative world using the juubi's limitless energy, where people will wander around in an opiatesque haze, kinda like the fate of those sealed by the sword of Totsuka? Either way it sounds stupid and a pointless roundabout way of just wanting to be a dickhead. I preferred the days when Akatsuki were just evil criminals, not overwritten tossers so desperate for validation that they need to come back from the dead to wave their ninja peens at a world from which they've long since become irrelevant.

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  14. #27
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Does it occur to everyone that Madara was lying when he said he would achieve "peace?"

    He never expressed any feelings or thoughts of being obligated to bring about peace in any form and everyone he cares for is dead.

    If he truly wanted to create a world for himself in which his dreams are reality, then why not just cast the genjutsu on himself, only. Why not leave the rest of the world alone? It would certainly not prompt others to interfere.

    My thought is that he just wants to control everyone under the guise of bringing on peace. He probably wants to reshape the real world, not the genjutsu world, in accordance with his ideals and subjugating everyone else to his will is a part of that future.

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  16. #28
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sanadan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    Does it occur to everyone that Madara was lying when he said he would achieve "peace?"

    He never expressed any feelings or thoughts of being obligated to bring about peace in any form and everyone he cares for is dead.

    If he truly wanted to create a world for himself in which his dreams are reality, then why not just cast the genjutsu on himself, only. Why not leave the rest of the world alone? It would certainly not prompt others to interfere.

    My thought is that he just wants to control everyone under the guise of bringing on peace. He probably wants to reshape the real world, not the genjutsu world, in accordance with his ideals and subjugating everyone else to his will is a part of that future.
    He is a "my way or gtfo" kind of guy. As shown in the flashbacks he is more in tune to dragging eeryone to their death for his own gains then achieving peace as he could have worked on.
    Meh

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  18. #29
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Which is why he only did so because he was denied the Hokage seat?
    Well he is a little bit of an escapist, but he was still free to pursue his objectives, in reality he really wanted to make a difference, it's just his means that were questionable. More broadly, the will of fire is just a belief in keeping the dead remembered, it is not the brainwashing you seem to imply there.

    Being an indoctrinated member of society means you have certain viewpoints that may have been influenced or imposed on you, but you can still change them if you see something that doesn't add up with the propaganda, madara's solution is more like being so depressed that you take up a hard drug addiction, making yourself drunk and high all day every day because that is the only way you can endure being alive anymore, otherwise they would just commit suicide. It's like they did this, and liked it so much that they want to force everyone to live life with tons of drugs in their veins just because they can't understand how anyone would want to live in such a terrible world.

    @ermac: they have techniques that can revive the dead, of course they will just hook everyone up to the same machines that madara was seen attached to in obito's flashbacks, nobody would reproduce, but edo madara would just watch over them as a caretaker eternally.

    @SSJ4 he is just really insensitive to other's feelings, like he thinks he knows what is best for everyone else, in reality when he was conquering the other tribes in the great war he thought that he would bring eternal peace if he won, and that only he was fit to rule and that the uchiha were the best and needed to be at the top. He is essentially doing the same thing, thinking that all dissenting opinions to his own are invariably wrong and don't need to be listened to. Unfortunately during their time headstrong people like this got their way.

    @Sanadan Believe it or not he actually thinks he is doing a very kind and selfish thing here, this isn't for his own gain, this is the only kind of peace he believes is possible, as someone will have violent tendencies in the future, and they can live in a world where they are an eternal conqueror or something without hurting anyone else.

  19. #30
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwyrm View Post
    Well he is a little bit of an escapist, but he was still free to pursue his objectives, in reality he really wanted to make a difference, it's just his means that were questionable. More broadly, the will of fire is just a belief in keeping the dead remembered, it is not the brainwashing you seem to imply there.

    Being an indoctrinated member of society means you have certain viewpoints that may have been influenced or imposed on you, but you can still change them if you see something that doesn't add up with the propaganda, madara's solution is more like being so depressed that you take up a hard drug addiction, making yourself drunk and high all day every day because that is the only way you can endure being alive anymore, otherwise they would just commit suicide. It's like they did this, and liked it so much that they want to force everyone to live life with tons of drugs in their veins just because they can't understand how anyone would want to live in such a terrible world.
    The indoctrinated ethos cannot be changed as they are literally a part of your conditioning. If there is one loose cog in the system - a free thinking individual - he's usually considered a threat to the system. And in most cases I have seen people throw death threats at others for being unpatriotic. I know it, because I have received them myself as well.

    It isn't that easy or simple as the words 'free will' themselves. In a political or a religious system, there is no free will. Which is why I am not a supporter of nation or country. Why should there be man-made boundaries? Anyways, I don't want to veer from the topic here.

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