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View Poll Results: What do you think?

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  • Yes, its just insane and wrong!

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  • Perhaps... but...

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  • No, its not all that bad.

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Thread: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    The indoctrinated ethos cannot be changed as they are literally a part of your conditioning. If there is one loose cog in the system - a free thinking individual - he's usually considered a threat to the system. And in most cases I have seen people throw death threats at others for being unpatriotic. I know it, because I have received them myself as well.

    It isn't that easy or simple as the words 'free will' themselves. In a political or a religious system, there is no free will. Which is why I am not a supporter of nation or country. Why should there be man-made boundaries? Anyways, I don't want to veer from the topic here.
    Yes, that is true, but while indoctrination is imposing one's will on someone else, the mugen tsukiyomi would be more like allowing you to keep your will, and be trapped, it's like in paranoia agent when you are escaping your problems without solving them, at least you try to solve them in a repressive, soul crushing conformist society.

    I definitely hear what you're saying though, I read about how in North korea people believe their leader controls the weather and that every other nation is constantly burning, and how they work 16 hours out of every day, then sleep then work 7 days a week, and are too tired to think about anything but work, and how at least 20% of the population is forbidden from even learning any language whatsoever just because their function does not require it, their minds are so clouded that even cannibalism doesn't make them think about anything, that would be similar to the mugen tsukiyomi, they are so far from reality that it is like they live their entire life detached, like in a dream.

    No, no thanks I think we are just interpreting the mangaka's intentions behind the bad guys' motivations, perhaps they are just putting everyone into a repressive society if they succeed, one where madara shapes reality however he sees fit. That might be what he is referencing with them "entering the matrix".

    Btw, my answer is that yes, it's terrible to force this on people, but that mugen tsukiyomi should be used for therapy with the warning that it is incredibly addictive to let it all go. If madara and obito weren't so hopeless and warlike they could have negotiated a solution for people to experience it in a limited extent and if they rationally choose to stay in it, then they can live their lives like that.

    Btw, sorry you had to go through that shadan, death threats are no fun, I've had to go through my share of bullying as well.
    Last edited by winterwyrm; May 02, 2013 at 01:25 AM.

  2. #32
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    I never said that infinite genjutsu is the right thing to do, I ventured that it sounds more realistic than Naruto's peace rubbish. There can never be true peace till different school of thoughts exist. My second point was; there is little to no difference between ET's brain-washing and 'will of fire' jingoism for which ninjas are laying down their lives left and right, and I still stand by it.

    Eh? I couldn't care less about those threats. But I do keep my mouth shut for the sake of my family's safety; people here are far too bigoted. I am not a little kid who gives in to such bullying. At twenty five, I think one grows past these things.

  3. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I never said that infinite genjutsu is the right thing to do, I ventured that it sounds more realistic than Naruto's peace rubbish. There can never be true peace till different school of thoughts exist. My second point was; there is little to no difference between ET's brain-washing and 'will of fire' jingoism for which ninjas are laying down their lives left and right, and I still stand by it.

    Eh? I couldn't care less about those threats. But I do keep my mouth shut for the sake of my family's safety; people here are far too bigoted. I am not a little kid who gives in to such bullying. At twenty five, I think one grows past these things.
    Well I guess I'm actually even more cynical than that myself somehow, I actually think that both naruto and madara's solutions will break down with time, eventually everyone in naruto's "superfriends" circle will die and new people will come in, and all it takes is one person to break the peace forever. Also, madara's solution can't be perfect either, some people in their world are immune to genjutsu, and I'm sure madara really can't make everyone live eternally without some kind of degradation, moreover he can't keep reproducing them and such without a tremendous time commitment, I think eventually that system would fail due to any number of reasons even if he succeeds, and the world will not end up much different 100 years from now for them either way.

    Yes though I don't really think naruto's idea of just cooperating is realistic in the real world though, someone would definitely try to dominate it, and there would be trouble, someone would try to snatch off someone else's plate. He might end the cycle of hatred, but it will start again eventually.

    Ah, pakistan, huh? I have heard that place can be rough, but quite liveable as long as you stay away from the afghan border, kyber pass, jammu and kashmir though, Baluchistan issue might heat up in the future. Like things are pretty chill there overall. I'm glad you overcame it, I think I am always going to be different from how I would be if I hadn't been bullied.

  4. #34
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    I'd have more respect for Naruto if he had a sane plan for peace...like getting all of the people who control the elements to manipulate farmland and the earth so there's a mountain sized skyscraper where everyone can have a large home, all the food they can eat and using ninja arts to end scarcity so noone would work unless they actually wanted to.

    With all of the crazy ass offensive techniques wouldn't making superfertile farmland and tiered homes be easy?

    Ending scarcity and the struggle for resources and living space would end the motivation for like 99% of mankinds wars.

    Maybe an economic plan where he sells shinobi services to other more technologically based countries to restore their environments to pristine condition and cure incurable diseases and gets world peace that way?

    An economic system that perpetuates peace is soo much saner than holding hands and singing koombayah.

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  5. #35
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    well, it depends how deep and submerged people will be within infinite tsukuyomi. i'm assuming everyone has their desires fulfilled without them realizing it. however, real life is the same way to a degree, where in government, some shady operations affect major events in history and we are fed a different story. it's kind of like what itachi said (sasuke vs itachi talk) where one's reality is shaped by their understanding of what's going on/what they are told, ie the story you believe to be true may not be true at all. something like that i guess.

    in some ways we are already living it today. however full control is wrong because it limits any organic progress of mankind.

  6. #36
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    The way I see it is that it's something like the christian heaven.

    Everyone gets the paradise they want, the limited tsukiyomi changed things and made them a shared experience for sakura and naruto but in the full tsukiyomi they'd get their own heaven.

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  7. #37
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by kanamechidori View Post
    The way I see it is that it's something like the christian heaven.

    Everyone gets the paradise they want, the limited tsukiyomi changed things and made them a shared experience for sakura and naruto but in the full tsukiyomi they'd get their own heaven.

    Implementing the Infinite Tsukuyomi means that everyone dies. As the Road to Ninja movie showed, even though a couple of days passed during Naruto's and Sakura's shared experience in the Limited Tsukuyomi, when the genjutsu was broken no time had passed in the real world. Even when Itachi used regular Tsukuyomi on Sasuke and Kakashi both were under the genjutsu until Tsunade woke them up days later. Under this grand genjutsu everyone will have an ideal life while their physical body just stands there doing nothing! Since no one is eating they will just wither away and die. Also I assume that Inifinte Tsukuyomi doesn't work on animals so while everyone on the planet is standing still in a daze their physical bodies can be attacked by any and every creature and insect alive.

    And for those readers who think the people will be still moving but seeing the world through rose colored eyes, well then the people under the genjutsu will be cooking for dead people that they believe are still alive. Rivals who fought over the same loved one would be doing things for the same person at different locations and therefore physically handing things to someone who is not there and therefore dropping everything everywhere.

    It is a stupid idea!

  8. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    @Kanamechidori- LOL, MEGA LOL, that's so true, could you imagine what edo hashirama can do for crops? He has infinite chakra and will never tire, furthermore infinite electricity and clean, fresh water from nowhere?

    In the third movie (I think) there was an entire city that could fly and was completely self-sustaining with crops and livestock that buried their trash on the island and used it for compost, what did they do with it? They used it to rain fire jutsu on everyone below to establish themselves as a superpower and ended up self-destructing it all.... T_T

    @YEEKUZA- Yes, Shahad mentioned that before, it's like we are already living in a mini MUTSU in some ways. We might be the same in it, just happier in the end.

    @systemman- Actually madara implied that he would serve as the eternal caretaker of the world, he thinks he is doing an incredibly selfless thing here, and will be like the martyr, putting everyone in a bed on life support and using hashirama's cells to keep them alive in a state of suspended animation in the genjutsu and protecting the world from meteors and plagues and such. He believes he can do this and make it a world without death. I don't know about it working out like that, but he thinks he can set it up with minimal initial losses, and no major losses after the war is over. It would literally make it impossible for anyone to wage war, yet the violent can indulge their sickest desires without hurting anyone else.

    It really is like heaven, it would be very different for everyone.

    Edit: madara's life support- http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/602/11

    flying wonder ninja city (infinite power, speedy transportation, very prosperous [sigh])-
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Land_of_the_Sky
    Last edited by winterwyrm; May 08, 2013 at 01:49 AM.

  9. #39
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    compare to a world ruled by Naruto bulshits talks ... it would be better ..... at least Madara version ....
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  11. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    compare to a world ruled by Naruto bulshits talks ... it would be better ..... at least Madara version ....
    Well at least madara has a lot of leadership experience, he knows what he is talking about. Funny, talking about it, I see myself becoming slightly more pro-madara.

  12. #41
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwyrm View Post
    Well I guess I'm actually even more cynical than that myself somehow, I actually think that both naruto and madara's solutions will break down with time, eventually everyone in naruto's "superfriends" circle will die and new people will come in, and all it takes is one person to break the peace forever. Also, madara's solution can't be perfect either, some people in their world are immune to genjutsu, and I'm sure madara really can't make everyone live eternally without some kind of degradation, moreover he can't keep reproducing them and such without a tremendous time commitment, I think eventually that system would fail due to any number of reasons even if he succeeds, and the world will not end up much different 100 years from now for them either way.

    Yes though I don't really think naruto's idea of just cooperating is realistic in the real world though, someone would definitely try to dominate it, and there would be trouble, someone would try to snatch off someone else's plate. He might end the cycle of hatred, but it will start again eventually.

    Ah, pakistan, huh? I have heard that place can be rough, but quite liveable as long as you stay away from the afghan border, kyber pass, jammu and kashmir though, Baluchistan issue might heat up in the future. Like things are pretty chill there overall. I'm glad you overcame it, I think I am always going to be different from how I would be if I hadn't been bullied.

    Unless and until Naruto doesn't wipe away the indoctrinated ideals of nations; his version of peace is nothing but rubbish.

    I have been living here for the past 25 years, and I can tell you; this place isn't worth living in.

  13. #42
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member winterwyrm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Unless and until Naruto doesn't wipe away the indoctrinated ideals of nations; his version of peace is nothing but rubbish.

    I have been living here for the past 25 years, and I can tell you; this place isn't worth living in.
    Yes, he really is naive, he has very childish views, and he isn't the first or last person to do exactly what he is saying. I think it's impossible to have world peace as long as there are people, but we can mitigate the damage a great deal. Yes, any villages that force emotional conditioning on it's children at age 5, places lethal seals on it's people's tongues, and actively erases people's memories or just kills them when they become inconvenient has no room to criticize madara, none of the others are much better either.

    Well, good luck to you friend, you have made the best of it I suppose. I hear they have the best street food vendors in the world there though. =]
    Last edited by winterwyrm; May 09, 2013 at 10:23 PM.

  14. #43
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by winterwyrm View Post
    Yes, he really is naive, he has very childish views, and he isn't the first or last person to do exactly what he is saying. I think it's impossible to have world peace as long as there are people, but we can mitigate the damage a great deal. Yes, any villages that force emotional conditioning on it's children at age 5, places lethal seals on it's people's tongues, and actively erases people's memories or just kills them when they become inconvenient has no room to criticize madara, none of the others are much better either.

    Well, good luck to you friend, you have made the best of it I suppose. I hear they have the best street food vendors in the world there though. =]
    Precisely. Madara doesn't deserve any criticism, considering the sordid political system of the nations that brain-washe all denizens into believing that their nation is more valuable than their family; an extremely fanatic military ideal that needs to be eradicated.

    Ummm yeahh ... No: on both accounts. Lol

  15. #44
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by shafagh View Post
    compare to a world ruled by Naruto bulshits talks ... it would be better ..... at least Madara version ....
    So, you want a world ruled by insane dictator like madara rather than a world ruled by democracy by naruto? yea, goodluck with that.

    Overall, you just want to become a puppet. If your leader want you to eat his poop then you/re gonna eat it, after all, you don't have any free will.

  16. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Is Mugen Tsukuyomi really all that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    If your leader want you to eat his poop then you/re gonna eat it, after all, you don't have any free will.
    Letting people eat poop sounds more like an idea sprouting from Naruto's bright mind instead of anything Madara would think of.

    I can almost picture it:

    "Kurama, take a dump in their village center! Ok, you guys who have dared to threaten peace, eat up now! If you don't, me and Kurama buddy are going to nuke your asses! Believe it!"
    Last edited by LnDRash; May 11, 2013 at 11:48 AM.
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