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Besides, a show's popularity is not directly proportional to how morally acceptable/tolerated its content is. I mean a lot of people watch shows like "The Jersey Shore" or "Maury show" but that doesn't mean that they would accept such behavior in real life.
And just because the celebrities do not feel "ashamed" for behavior that is deemed unusual, does not equate to people around them agreeing with their stance on such issues.
If the audience, or at least a significant portion of it, find behaviors on such shows acceptable, then wouldn't that imply that they support/accept/tolerate misogyny, alcoholism, domestic violence, etc.?
In short, your argument can be summarized as,
celebrities find it acceptable and do not find it unusual-->thus a lot of other people must think the same way.
It's an informal fallacy that fails to strongly support the conclusion's validity.
---------- Post added at 06:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 AM ----------
Nor does it justify all the questionable directorial decisions Kubo took in a lot of what I could call "filler chapters," "prop" characters, and inappropriate moodswings (e.g. that comic-relief discussion Hisagi and Kira had while they were facing Allon).
Not to mention the inexplicable dichotomy between Ichigo's "need to protect everyone" and his kenpachi-esque hunger for battle.
It also brings up another petpeeve I had about Ichigo suddenly having hesitations about "killing" Ulquiorra. I thought zanpakuto simply cleansed the souls and sent them to Soul Society. Why is he suddenly panicking about him discovering that he cut off Ulquiorra's limbs when he didn't even flinch when he disarmed (pun intended) Yami's arm? And god knows that Ulquiorra did worse things to Ichi's friends than Yami ever did.
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 16, 2013 at 06:20 AM.
I will again assert that the existence of shows that not only acknowledge these 'May/December' romances, but point out the idea that you don't have to be young to still be sexy are not just present, but have a wide enough audience to show that there is approval of the idea that love may occur between an older and a younger person, and as long as they are of legal age to consent, while others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people.
And I don't know why you are thinking 'ick' anyway. Honestly, young Isshin is cute and young Masaki is not only beautiful, but fiery and strong willed. Isshin wouldn't be a man if he wasn't knocked for a loop by that. Relax, it's a story about two people falling in love. And you don't know when or how they will yet. You should just relax and give the story a chance. Prejudging, of course you won't like it. That's your choice, of course, but you will miss out that way.
Personally, I think that Kubo's physical designs are closely correlated to the 'mental age' of the character. I don't think that Kubo keeps in mind that Isshin is extremely old (by our terms) when he draws his interactions.
Not having read any of the posts above, will do so after this, my take on it.
Kubo likes to draw beautiful people. he did so with Isshin, his beard hid his handsome face before, so I don't see any problem here. It's not like that them getting together was any suprise, this series is over ten years old now and his devotion to her was revealed in the very first couple of chapters too.
And it's not like Lee[Dracula] was an ugly person either and that movie happened ~45 years before Twilight was released. Nor were Pitt or Cruise some two decades ago in Interview with the Vampire. Or Boreanaz and a couple others in Buffy, years before Twilight was even released...
At OP: You should be old enough to know better than to use the prevailing image of vampires to make such a crappy initial statement. Feels like one of those sankakucomplex top lists with only series from the last 18 months. Have you thought this through?
And please stop with this age nonsense, a two thousand year shinigami is exactly 2000 years old, no matter in which known dimension he/she is. A shinigami's spiritual body grows slower than a human one, what is there to be worth a discussion without going into theories that are based on nothing but your own imagination?
Last edited by Schabrak; April 16, 2013 at 02:57 PM.
Hitsugaya has rarely shown extreme goofiness if at all.... I don't think hitsugaya acts like it is expected of a child genius. I don't think that is quite a thing to begin with. I also don't see what about his personality is childlike for that matter. Rather his personality seems to be actually extremely mature at least considering the way he handles himself. In battles the only time he lost his cool was against aizen however in the rest he has been as calm and collected as it could ever be expected of a true gotei 13 captain. Heck, against luppi he was calm and collected enough to set up a huge technique while the rest of the gang was about to get raped by luppi's somewhat phallic resurreccion... He does have a few banters now and there however most of them are caused by people perceiving him as a kid because of his looks. Overall hitsugaya seems to be somewhere between byakuya and ukitake in regards to his overall personality IMO. Just imagine him as a grown up with the personality he has now and IMO he would not seem childlike at all (at least not more than just about any other captain). I guess gin could be considered a good example of what I suggest hitsugaya is. His personality when he was a child and now is basically the same as the one he has now yet because he was a child 112 years ago it seemed more playful back then and now it just seems plain sociopathic since he is an adult(I am not saying he wasn't a sociopath before, just that as a child it seemed more playful than what it is now and the current one seemed to be just plain more disturbing).
In which world are you living, where all people act their age and show that "wisdom" that they should have gained in their lifetime? We would have no wars and a beautiful blue planet without much pollution etc.
Kubo protrays the character however he wants, following his ideal picture of character action and interaction. We might also have to consider, that some shinigami can/are allowed to not act their age because they have soooo much time to live anyway.
2) Aizen himself stated he was watching Ichigo develop all along. This should be obvious.
3) It shows that despite acting mature for his age, Hitsugaya still has one child-like quality: his indecision to kill morally grey characters. Compare Hitsugaya with Shunsui. Shunsui clearly saw Starkk had a good side to him but he still killed him because at the end of the day Starkk was still more loyal to Aizen. He had to die. Hitsugaya on the other hand just froze her and left her without killing her because he found it honourable how she cared for her Fraccion. The entire fight was to depict how Hitsugaya, the youngest, struggled with his duties as a Captain. He himself cares for his subordinates but he was preventing someone else who wanted to avenge her fallen comrades (much like how he wanted to avenge Momo) from doing so. This kind of development is not something you can rush otherwise it will feel forced.
4) I don't know what translations you're reading but, in the RAW, for the entire Arrancar arc Ichigo states he has to defeat Aizen until he's about to head back ot KT through the Garganta. Only then does he say he has to kill Aizen. He surely went through trials in order to change his mind right?
5) That doesn't really count because heart-reading is really an ability exclusive to only Ichigo. Only Ichigo can cross sowrds with someone and read their hearts. Hitsugaya was so angry at Aizen because he had no idea what Aizen hid in his heart. The entire point of the FB arc was that Ichigo was without powers so he could no longer fight against powerful opponents. Thus he lost the emotional connection he once was able to hold with his enemies. He was isolated in mind as well as body. He needed Unagiya.
6) VCs are popular. Kubo himself stated in an interview that Hisagi ended up being more popular than he expected him to be. All mangas have fan service and after wrapping up the dark HM arc I think it's great to relax the manga with some fan service. Remember its a Shounen audience so you can't jsut keep throwing heavy themes at them. You have to lighten up the manga at times. The other Bankais were going to be saved for the Final arc because otherwise it would have been boring.
7) Ichigo only has the same kind of power-ups that all Shounen protagonists have. Guess what? The battle with Aizen was short. That's what you were previously asking for so why complain? Kubo already covered the themes and ideas so he didn't necessarily need to spend 20+ chapters on it. In Bleach, characters and themes come before battles and power. It's not exactly like every other Shounen manga although it tends to follow the same framework. Besides Aizen was on a dimension below Ichigo. It wouldn't make sense for him to fight on par with him.
8) He wants to show what kind of being Aizen was evolving into. Aizen wasn't a transcendent when he fought hte Captains.
9) You're reading too much at face value. 'I will protect you' is a classic shounen idea but it's not the only thing Ichigo is all about. However since this is Shounen Kubo can't let Ichigo be too direct with what he means. Like the lesson of the Arrancar arc was that in battle you have to kill. One of the main problems with Ichigo in the SS arc was that he couldn't kill. He learnt to overcome that in the Arrancar arc. However you can't just have Ichigo yelling 'I learnt in battle I have to kill my opponent!'. The parents in Japan would be suing Kubo if he wrote that so instead he made it very subtle.
10) That's th basis of a good literally title. If you study literature you'll know that a good title is one which doesn't give too much of the plot away. A good title is something ambiguous. That's why 'The Bite' is a good title. Even one of the chapters Zaraki fights Nnoitra is called 'The Undead 4' so I'm pretty sure Kubo is referring to Zaraki.
Actually it's not because that's the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues. If you introduce concepts/issues and resolve them all in 1 arc then what are you going to do with the next arc? You could make up stuff but then it would have a high chance of clashing with stuff you've already established. That's a natural problem all writers have. Like when Kubo first wrote Bleach he had not designed the Menos evolution treee. When the first Menos Grande appeared Rukia said only the RG can beat them. Later Kubo had to retcon this idea (saying Rukia's academy textbook was out of date) as he detailed Menos and established their hierarchy. Why did Kubo have this problem? Because he didn't introduce the entire Menos evolution from the start. The most accurate story would be one in which the author has it planned out 100% from the start. However that's impossible in WSJ where you don't even know how long your series is going to last. Stuff like this is to be expected.
2) Aizen monitoring Ichigo's growth is different than Aizen wanting Ichigo to grow stronger. Studying Ichigo's hollow side for his own goal to transcend hollows and shinigami is one thing. Actively putting effort into paving the way for Ichigo to surpass him is another thing.
3) No, Hitsugaya used that ability to end Halibel's life, hence "your life will end when the flowers bloom in the hundreds." There was no moral conflict going on in his head. Otherwise, the way he took care of Lupi, who was just bloodthirsty without reason, would have been different from how he took on Halibel.
4) Except that every single foe he fought in Hueco Mundo, he never killed anyone on purpose; he always spared them and he showed regret when Ulquiorra died.
So even in the hypothetical situation in which the wording difference between "defeat" and "kill" is significant enough to show Ichigo's growth, there hasn't been any significant change that was illustrated within Ichigo that would prompt him to suddenly gain the motivation to "kill" rather than "defeat" Aizen.
5) You just pulled that "soul reading is an ability exclusive to Ichigo" out of nowhere. Nor is your claim that such ability to empathize with others simply disappeared into the ether once he lost his shinigami powers. Regardless, even if this is true, it does not explain why Ichigo would lose all that emotional maturity in a single swoop like that.
6) Hisagi being popular or not does not justify or prove that the VC's participation in the Karakura town was necessary or essential in the final fight. Its absence would have made no difference. It has nothing to do with heavy themes. Just the way the story is being paced. That was the point.
7) The length of the fight being relatively brief? I can deal with. If the fight with once-extremely-feared antagonist who built up all the tension and conflict for hundreds of chapters get beaten with little difficulty? Then that is anticlimactic. Hence having Ichigo becoming much stronger than Aizen took out a lot of steam from a potentially epic fight.
8) Again, the best way to show Aizen's growth was to have high school students throw bottles at him? The chapters with them and Don Kanoji could have been thrown out. We could have skipped to Gin backstabbing Aizen and that still would have been enough to show that Aizen became so big that even flesh-eating poison is not enough to kill him. My point? Pointless filler chapters and "prop" side characters that throw pacing into a trashbin.
9) You are making contradictions here. As everyone can agree, Ichigo's philosophy (and instinct) is to protect, not to kill. Nothing in the past chapters has changed that. In SS, Ichigo's goal was not to kill Byakuya, but to rescue Rukia and change his mind. We are given nothing to believe that such a decision was wrong, as we are rewarded with Byakuya eventually rescuing Rukia.
The Arrancar arc was not about Ichigo learning to kill either. He never kills anyone. He even shows great regret and shame at the sight of Ulquiorra dying and admonishes Noitra for hurting Grimjow who was in no shape to fight. Every single one of his actions were taken for the sake of protecting everyone and he has never been shown to gain the desire or need to kill anyone.
As you repeated multiple times, this is a shounen manga. As its target audience is little children, the author cannot complicate things and has showcased a single protagonist whose only motivating factor is his obligation to protect everything. And its simplicity is what makes it even more like a twelve-year-old's idea of a romantic fairy tale about vampires and werewolves.
10) Claiming that the titles carry messages about the chapters they concern and claiming that the author carefully chose such titles n anticipation for a future arc are two different things. There is little, if not nothing, to strongly indicate that the title "Undead" was chosen for such a purpose.
11) As you said "the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues." Hence, vaguely referring to unresolved/unprecedented ideas in the middle of nowhere serves no meaningful purpose. And I did not dispute the notion that retcons are unavoidable. It's actually for that very reason that Bleach's storylines, as a collective whole, is just messy.
---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------
As you, yourself pointed out, I do not know the mentality of strangers, yet you made the generalization that such celebrities and popularity behind TV shows (like those concerning cougars) that illustrate such behavior must indicate its wide acceptance among the general population. And I gave a couple of examples of TV shows that actually illustrate behavior that is NOT accepted by the general population.
I did not put "words in [your] mouth."
As for your justification of "May/December" Romances, my stance is just a personal preference and its my personal response. However, I understand that people consider it differently and accept that they are free to pursue any future together as long as they are both consenting adults. As you said "others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people." You cannot and do not have to logic me to think otherwise, so why spend a paragraph arguing its support?
As for your third paragraph, that's the entire premise behind twilight, anyways, isn't it? Having a 100-year-old vampire looking like a 17-year-old, thus making the two a couple a visually, aesthetically acceptable picture that made it popular among pre-teen, female readers?
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 16, 2013 at 11:42 PM.
"So we got Isshin, a shinigami who could potentially be 100+ years old who inevitably ends up with/pining for a high school girl who is also a Quincy...
A super old, albeit attractive dude falling in love with a girl who's part of a race/group that he is suppose to exterminate, and that girl loving him back despite the dangers shinigami pose to her as a Quincy...."
You drew all the other conclusions from no basis.
Besides, we don't even know much about Masaki. Other than the fact that she's one dimensional (the obligatory All-Bleach's-Good-Guys-Must-Be-Self-Sacrificingly-Heroic) that she does not feel much different than the dozens of characters we've been introduced to so far. Her heroic sense of justice may be more respectable than a high school girl going through a 4-book-long dilemma about who she should sleep with, but that does not make her that much more interesting or complex. And just for clarification, this does not imply anything about my stance on who's the better role model.
Same goes for Isshin.
PS: Your argument about people accept celebrities+watch TV shows-->Audience agree with its content is just plain informal fallacy, not a matter of difference in opinion.
PPS: It must also be acknowledged that the twilight girl's main problem isn't choosing between the werewolf and the vampire. It's her lack of self-worth and her desire to protect others who are willing to sacrifice themselves for her well-being despite her belief that she's not worth it. Doesn't change the fact that the book franchise is badly written. But it does make the case that Masaki is not that much better characterized or complex than the girl in twilight.
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 17, 2013 at 12:50 AM.
And you are completely off base in your assessment of Masaki. She has proven to be a person with a strong moral compass (goes to help, even knowing she may be helping a shinigami), compassionate and courageous...even a bit reckless. She is admirable in that way and stands out as a strong character who protects, rather than a wimpy, self-involved teen who wonders which undead boyfriend to sleep with. Add to that, the impression that Masaki has made in just a few manga chapters, which is more than that ridiculous girl makes in all of the Twilight novels. Masaki isn't depending on others, she is strong and standing up to protect others. She is not whining about the unfairness of her situation, she is acting to change it by fighting the source of the injustice (here, the hollow). There is really no comparison between the two at all. Masaki's connection with Isshin isn't one of 'Ooh! Save me!" She and Isshin stand up equally and protect each other from the hollow. There is already respect between them that is probably going to be the basis for their relationship. Isshin doesn't see her as a wimpy girl who needs saving (cue Orihime...), he is wowed by her unswerving courage that borders on recklessness. And we've seen already that Isshin has that same quality. That is a very reasonable foundation for love. Bleach is not like Twilight except for the fact that Isshin is a soul with a longer lifespan and therefore has lived more 'years' than Masaki. But that is a very, very thin and shaky comparison. The characters are not as alike as you assert. The Bleach characters achieve more depth in much less story.
2) I never disputed that Masaki has virtues that are absent in Twilight. Only that the degree of the characterization the author has put into the character is almost insignificant(compared to other courageous and just characters we've been introduced to) and simplistic. She wants to save others for her sense of justice? That's fine, just add her to the pile of dozens of other characters who have demonstrated that in the past hundreds of chapters. She has no genuine distinguishing factor that truly separates her from others. None of your argument disproved that.
3) Of course the comparison was thin. I did not call for a word-for-word comparison for every single element in the story telling style between the two works. I simply started a thread mentioning the two premises behind the two works that seemed rather similar. And you haven't really disproved that effectively either.
Jeeze, cool down. And make sure that your claim is strongly supported by your premise and that your argument actually, directly concerns what my claims are.
PS: Your arguments in support of Masaki's virtues are actually reminding me of more similarities...as the girl in twilight actually does eventually grow up. She becomes independent, denounces relying on others close to her, and takes active action to protect what she believes is just. Again, not insinuating that twilight is a work of art, but I am strongly against not doing my citations justice by leaving out details like that.
Besides, relax. What I'm saying essentially can be summed up as "the details and characterization Kubo put into a 54-page picture book are equivalent to what Stephanie Meyer managed by the end of a 4-book series."
Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 17, 2013 at 02:17 AM.
Again, about Masaki, you are way off. Kubo has had a mere few chapters to introduce her and already you are complaining about lack of characterization. Twilight is a finished series. Do you not understand that comparing the two is not reasonable, because one is a completed story and one is a work in progress? THAT is a weak premise.
And I don't have to prove or disprove anything to your satisfaction. The works are not, in my view, similar at all. Isshin is a young (for a shinigami), powerful and reckless captain who encounters a strong, beautiful girl doing what comes naturally to her. She is a much stronger and livelier character in just a few chapters than the Twilight girl is in all of those books. And Masaki isn't mooning about, wondering what to do and questioning everything. She is actually a pretty admirable person already. And unlike almost every female character in Bleach, she does not fall under either the 'weak and must be saved' category or the 'strong, but inherently loud and annoying' category. I think that, given the little amount of material we have, it is not fair to compare the development of those characters. They are literally worlds apart. And that argument is completely supported by the facts of the story as produced so far. Just because you do not think so does not make me wrong. I have made a reasonable argument and supported it with examples. You can't argue the point, so you attack the examples. It just means you can't disprove what I'm saying. Why don't we put the shoe on the other foot here. Why don't you prove what you are saying? It's easy to attack a person's ideas to distract from your own. So, what evidence exactly equates Bleach with Twilight, other than your admittedly thin argument about old supernatural person chases young human? How exactly is Isshin like the boys in Twilight (other than being essentially ancient, undead souls)? How is Masaki in any way (besides just age) like the girl from twilight? You've built a big argument on a few weak facts. Lets see what supports that.