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Thread: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

  1. #31
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    But weren't you generalizing when you said that in your country, which appears to be mine as well, that it is not acceptable? I used celebrity examples to illustrate that the concept is widely known/something people are aware of. If, as you generalized, our country was not accepting of it, then celebrities wouldn't make a show of it as those I mentioned did, and shows that popularized it wouldn't have an audience. Yet, the shows are there and celebrities that are a part of that culture do actually show themselves in public and are not shamed for it. Doesn't make it right, but it makes the point that it is accepted by a large number of people. I didn't say 'the greater number,' just a significant amount. That is a fact, not a generalization.
    I didn't say it was unacceptable. I implied that it's frowned upon. And having a concept that is widely known is different from having that concept be widely accepted/tolerated.

    Besides, a show's popularity is not directly proportional to how morally acceptable/tolerated its content is. I mean a lot of people watch shows like "The Jersey Shore" or "Maury show" but that doesn't mean that they would accept such behavior in real life.

    And just because the celebrities do not feel "ashamed" for behavior that is deemed unusual, does not equate to people around them agreeing with their stance on such issues.

    If the audience, or at least a significant portion of it, find behaviors on such shows acceptable, then wouldn't that imply that they support/accept/tolerate misogyny, alcoholism, domestic violence, etc.?

    In short, your argument can be summarized as,

    celebrities find it acceptable and do not find it unusual-->thus a lot of other people must think the same way.

    It's an informal fallacy that fails to strongly support the conclusion's validity.

    ---------- Post added at 06:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Render View Post
    Every time someone accuses Kubo of being lazy and not planning things, and Bleach of not having plot or character development, just put this link on your post and be done with it.

    http://bleachness.livejournal.com/319557.html
    Not sure what you're getting at here...but all it indicates for me is that every single arc's plot can be boiled down to Ichigo's monumental need to protect everything and that the character development is just inconsistent. Aside from the major setback we have with Ichigo (him suddenly in need of a mother-figure after all his growth so far, etc.), the linked essay argues about how Orihime's actions are also a contradiction to her previous convictions.

    Nor does it justify all the questionable directorial decisions Kubo took in a lot of what I could call "filler chapters," "prop" characters, and inappropriate moodswings (e.g. that comic-relief discussion Hisagi and Kira had while they were facing Allon).

    Not to mention the inexplicable dichotomy between Ichigo's "need to protect everyone" and his kenpachi-esque hunger for battle.

    It also brings up another petpeeve I had about Ichigo suddenly having hesitations about "killing" Ulquiorra. I thought zanpakuto simply cleansed the souls and sent them to Soul Society. Why is he suddenly panicking about him discovering that he cut off Ulquiorra's limbs when he didn't even flinch when he disarmed (pun intended) Yami's arm? And god knows that Ulquiorra did worse things to Ichi's friends than Yami ever did.
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 16, 2013 at 06:20 AM.

  2. #32
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Firebird0ne's Avatar
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    I didn't say it was unacceptable. I implied that it's frowned upon. And having a concept that is widely known is different from having that concept be widely accepted/tolerated.

    Besides, a show's popularity is not directly proportional to how morally acceptable/tolerated its content is. I mean a lot of people watch shows like "The Jersey Shore" or "Maury show" but that doesn't mean that they would accept such behavior in real life.

    And just because the celebrities do not feel "ashamed" for behavior that is deemed unusual, does not equate to people around them agreeing with their stance on such issues.

    If the audience, or at least a significant portion of it, find behaviors on such shows acceptable, then wouldn't that imply that they support/accept/tolerate misogyny, alcoholism, domestic violence, etc.?

    In short, your argument can be summarized as,

    celebrities find it acceptable and do not find it unusual-->thus a lot of other people must think the same way.

    It's an informal fallacy that fails to strongly support the conclusion's validity.
    Please do not put words in my mouth. That is very rude. I gave some celebrities as well known examples of open acceptance of an idea. If I mentioned random unknown people, it would hardly make a reference that a stranger would understand. Them being celebrities and in the public arena just makes a bridge for common understanding, since you are more likely to know a celebrity than someone not famous. That is not an argument that them being celebrities and doing what they want makes it right. That wasn't what I was saying at all.

    I will again assert that the existence of shows that not only acknowledge these 'May/December' romances, but point out the idea that you don't have to be young to still be sexy are not just present, but have a wide enough audience to show that there is approval of the idea that love may occur between an older and a younger person, and as long as they are of legal age to consent, while others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people.

    And I don't know why you are thinking 'ick' anyway. Honestly, young Isshin is cute and young Masaki is not only beautiful, but fiery and strong willed. Isshin wouldn't be a man if he wasn't knocked for a loop by that. Relax, it's a story about two people falling in love. And you don't know when or how they will yet. You should just relax and give the story a chance. Prejudging, of course you won't like it. That's your choice, of course, but you will miss out that way.

  3. #33
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    ^None of that would actually be relevant to the discussion. Regardless of how a year is defined the current situation is that ishin would by whatever standard be at least decades(ours) if not older than masaki. Even ishin's "biological" age would be irrelevant to the argument in many regards too, the entirely lifespan he has been around would still be much greater than masaki's own. If time goes in one place at a different rate then the situation is still bad considering everything. I mean, if time goes 3 times faster in SS than in then human world then you still have the scenario that in the 15 or so years masaki has been around ishin lived at least 45. I doubt time in the human world actually goes faster than in the shinigami world.... Not once has that even been hinted at and so far everything seems to indicate that times does move at the same rate between worlds (except unless dangai does something). We saw the calculations done by yoruichi regarding rukia's execution and the gang's arrival, they assume time travels at the same rate between worlds.

    Ultimately what would matter here is the entire amount of time each character has been alive(and not the subjective systems by which time is given meaning). Shinigami do age much slower but it still does not make sense to compare people between their biological age, hitsugaya is actually the best example for that. Could an 13 year old be a captain? Hitsugaya might look 13 (or whatever age he is supposed to look at) but he does not act as if he was 13. He acts like someone his age would act at least otherwise he wouldn't be a captain. Seriously, the only way hitsugaya could be captain of a division if he really acted his biological age would be that his divison specialized in video games, napping and masturbating... Hitsugaya might look 13 but he is 80 and has the mind of an 80 year old dude (one that makes sense in bleachverse anyways considering the extended lifespans shinigami enjoy). Its not like other captains are that better off anyways. Byakuya and gin were supposed to look like teenagers the age of ichigo at large and them dating masaki instead of ishin would not be any less weird at all.
    I guess that's more of a subjective thing. To me, most of the characters seem to act the age that they look like. Hitsugaya, for example, seems like a classic portrayal of a child genius. His personality resembles that of young Miyata in Hajime no Ippo or Echizen in Prince of Tennis, i.e. straight to the point, does what's expected of him and quiet/indifferent otherwise. It is the same for Isshin. He doesn't act like someone who'd be 200+ years, his extreme goofiness suggests that he is indeed a young adult.

    Personally, I think that Kubo's physical designs are closely correlated to the 'mental age' of the character. I don't think that Kubo keeps in mind that Isshin is extremely old (by our terms) when he draws his interactions.

  4. #34
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Not having read any of the posts above, will do so after this, my take on it.

    Kubo likes to draw beautiful people. he did so with Isshin, his beard hid his handsome face before, so I don't see any problem here. It's not like that them getting together was any suprise, this series is over ten years old now and his devotion to her was revealed in the very first couple of chapters too.

    And it's not like Lee[Dracula] was an ugly person either and that movie happened ~45 years before Twilight was released. Nor were Pitt or Cruise some two decades ago in Interview with the Vampire. Or Boreanaz and a couple others in Buffy, years before Twilight was even released...



    At OP: You should be old enough to know better than to use the prevailing image of vampires to make such a crappy initial statement. Feels like one of those sankakucomplex top lists with only series from the last 18 months. Have you thought this through?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franckie View Post
    I don't think Twilight is an accurate description of the plot. The thing is that with Bleach, there was no plot to speak of until Aizen's defeat. How a series could acquire 400+ chapters with no defining plot is beyond me.
    It's beyond me why anybody in their right mind would follow a series for 400 chapters with no defining plot. Do yourself a favor and stop being a hypocrite.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    I implied that it's frowned upon.
    Frowned upon, or being envious? We aren't talking about 13y/45y relationships one hears from arabic/islamic states here, do we?. In the end it's up to the mental state/degree of maturity of that boy/girl to decide whom he/she wants to have sex with. I'm pretty happy to live in germany, not USA, which is still pretty backwards in that regard.

    And please stop with this age nonsense, a two thousand year shinigami is exactly 2000 years old, no matter in which known dimension he/she is. A shinigami's spiritual body grows slower than a human one, what is there to be worth a discussion without going into theories that are based on nothing but your own imagination?
    Last edited by Schabrak; April 16, 2013 at 02:57 PM.
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  5. #35
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Hitsugaya has rarely shown extreme goofiness if at all.... I don't think hitsugaya acts like it is expected of a child genius. I don't think that is quite a thing to begin with. I also don't see what about his personality is childlike for that matter. Rather his personality seems to be actually extremely mature at least considering the way he handles himself. In battles the only time he lost his cool was against aizen however in the rest he has been as calm and collected as it could ever be expected of a true gotei 13 captain. Heck, against luppi he was calm and collected enough to set up a huge technique while the rest of the gang was about to get raped by luppi's somewhat phallic resurreccion... He does have a few banters now and there however most of them are caused by people perceiving him as a kid because of his looks. Overall hitsugaya seems to be somewhere between byakuya and ukitake in regards to his overall personality IMO. Just imagine him as a grown up with the personality he has now and IMO he would not seem childlike at all (at least not more than just about any other captain). I guess gin could be considered a good example of what I suggest hitsugaya is. His personality when he was a child and now is basically the same as the one he has now yet because he was a child 112 years ago it seemed more playful back then and now it just seems plain sociopathic since he is an adult(I am not saying he wasn't a sociopath before, just that as a child it seemed more playful than what it is now and the current one seemed to be just plain more disturbing).

  6. #36
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    Hitsugaya has rarely shown extreme goofiness if at all.... I don't think hitsugaya acts like it is expected of a child genius. I don't think that is quite a thing to begin with. I also don't see what about his personality is childlike for that matter. Rather his personality seems to be actually extremely mature at least considering the way he handles himself. In battles the only time he lost his cool was against aizen however in the rest he has been as calm and collected as it could ever be expected of a true gotei 13 captain. Heck, against luppi he was calm and collected enough to set up a huge technique while the rest of the gang was about to get raped by luppi's somewhat phallic resurreccion... He does have a few banters now and there however most of them are caused by people perceiving him as a kid because of his looks. Overall hitsugaya seems to be somewhere between byakuya and ukitake in regards to his overall personality IMO. Just imagine him as a grown up with the personality he has now and IMO he would not seem childlike at all (at least not more than just about any other captain). I guess gin could be considered a good example of what I suggest hitsugaya is. His personality when he was a child and now is basically the same as the one he has now yet because he was a child 112 years ago it seemed more playful back then and now it just seems plain sociopathic since he is an adult(I am not saying he wasn't a sociopath before, just that as a child it seemed more playful than what it is now and the current one seemed to be just plain more disturbing).
    You must have misunderstood me. I didn't say that Hitsugaya is goofy. Saying that something is 'expected' out of a child genius was poorly phrased. What I meant was that Hitsugaya's personality is similar to those of other child genius in older mangas. There are lots of people who don't have the 'wisdom' that they should have at that age, which to me implies that Kubo didn't want to portray them older than they look.

  7. #37
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Schabrak's Avatar
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    In which world are you living, where all people act their age and show that "wisdom" that they should have gained in their lifetime? We would have no wars and a beautiful blue planet without much pollution etc.

    Kubo protrays the character however he wants, following his ideal picture of character action and interaction. We might also have to consider, that some shinigami can/are allowed to not act their age because they have soooo much time to live anyway.
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  8. #38
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    1) Not only Ulquiorra implied that there was something wrong with Inoue, Grimjow did as well. What purpose does Grimjow saying the same thing accomplish? He wanted Ichigo at full strength so they could fight to their limits. And villains of such archetype usually stress/emphasize truths to antagonize the protagonists; they do not lie pointlessly.

    2) Where in the heavens have you gained the idea that Ulquiorra and Aizen wanted Ichigo to complete his "hell knight" form? Aizen's goal was to kill the soul king and Ulq's orders were to protect Hueco Mundo. How does Ichigo getting stronger help with any of that?

    3) Keep the fights short to illustrate themes of the manga? What kind of theme does Hitsugaya burying Halibel under a mountain of ice illustrate? And shortening a fight that the preceding 50+ chapters have been building up to, all the fear, tension, and anticipation, into a dozen, oversized panels is not doing any service to anyone.

    4) Ichigo does not go through trials. Aizen was antagonizing him when he tells Ichigo that his main goal was to develop a killing instinct. It's been stressed for the Nth time that it was to protect/save his friends.
    a- he did not have any fear of his hollow, because he had already conquered it with help from Shinji. He started using his Bankai+mask and defeats Dorondi when he attacked Nel and she got hurt, making him feel guilty that he failed to protect her.
    b- Ichigo somehow inexplicably gained the ability to keep the mask on longer after he was brought back to life. No explanation was given, nor was there any indication that Ulquiorra stabbing him was the reason why that happened. However, he defeats Grimjow as he makes the vow that he'll save everyone and bring them back to safety.
    c- Ichigo hollowfies and curbstomps Ulquiorra when Orihime cries out to him for help.
    The problem I have is that Ichigo does not train or work to get stronger. Kubo gives makes Ichigo stronger as the story demands so that he can save his friends. This is not legitimate character growth. This is just the author playing favorites.

    5) Ichigo after beating Aizen. It actually shows a degree of emotional maturity on his part. He was showing empathy and understanding towards a person with a complicated past without being overwhelmed by emotion. This is in contrast to Hitsugaya who was overcome with rage at Aizen's crimes. This actually shows that Ichigo grew up. Add that on top of all the enemies he faced, it is a step BACK if he were in need of a mother figure to rely on. As Rukia once said, Ichigo came through much "worse despair."

    6) Fracciones and VC being popular? No, if I were remember correctly, the captains were more popular and their fights were more anticipated. The fans were more curious with the captains' Bankais and the Vizards in action, rather than re-watch those Vice captains use their Shikai AGAIN after seeing them do so countlessly in movies and filler-anime episodes.

    But this is pointless, as their fights did not make a difference. Even if those chapters were removed, the end result would not have changed. Hence why Kubo has pacing issues.

    7) I have no complaint about the Dangai training. What I have problems with is all the other times Ichigo got random power-ups. and How the fights end up being completely one-sided. And spending hundreds of chapters illustrating how powerful Aizen is, and then having him get completely overwhelmed over the course of a few panels? This is not going out with a bang at the climax. No, that is just anticlimactic.

    8) Kubo wanting to show how powerful Aizen had become compared to humans? And the best way to do that is to have high school students throw bottles at him? All the previous battles have sufficiently illustrated that. What purpose does following up a battle among the captains and Aizen with his confrontation against weak kids serve? Again, Kubo has pacing problems.

    9) You are asking me to look for themes and depth in a story that focuses on a high school boy whose lines entirely revolve around the mantra "I will protect all of you?" Please do explain how much enlightenment I could receive from reading 5+ times, a scene dealing with Ryunosuke and Shino slapping each other around?

    10) The chapter called "The Bite?" The word is way too ambiguous. For all we know, it is more likely that Kubo is illustrating the fact that Ichigo "played into [Aizen's] hand," as opposed to the LITERAL bite that his mother received from a hollow for reasons that are still unclear to us. Or it could be referring to the Getsuga Tensho that Ichigo finally landed on Aizen; Getsuga Tensho=Moon Fang Heaven-Piercer. Bite, fangs, see the connection? The chapter title "Undead" is more likely to be referring to the fact that Ichigo just revived himself from near-death to completely overpower Kenpachi. And the actual chapter during which Aizen talks about Ichigo's mother is called "Edge of the silence."

    Regardless, again, introducing a concept/issue in one arc that does not serve any role and does not get resolved until 1+ arc later is just pointless and bad story telling.
    1) He wanted to anger Ichigo into fighting at full strength. Grimmjow isn't the kind of guy who can understand insecurities about looking like a Hollow in front of your friend so he had no idea that fighting with his Vizard mask because it scared Inoue was the reason for Ichigo's indecision.

    2) Aizen himself stated he was watching Ichigo develop all along. This should be obvious.

    3) It shows that despite acting mature for his age, Hitsugaya still has one child-like quality: his indecision to kill morally grey characters. Compare Hitsugaya with Shunsui. Shunsui clearly saw Starkk had a good side to him but he still killed him because at the end of the day Starkk was still more loyal to Aizen. He had to die. Hitsugaya on the other hand just froze her and left her without killing her because he found it honourable how she cared for her Fraccion. The entire fight was to depict how Hitsugaya, the youngest, struggled with his duties as a Captain. He himself cares for his subordinates but he was preventing someone else who wanted to avenge her fallen comrades (much like how he wanted to avenge Momo) from doing so. This kind of development is not something you can rush otherwise it will feel forced.

    4) I don't know what translations you're reading but, in the RAW, for the entire Arrancar arc Ichigo states he has to defeat Aizen until he's about to head back ot KT through the Garganta. Only then does he say he has to kill Aizen. He surely went through trials in order to change his mind right?

    5) That doesn't really count because heart-reading is really an ability exclusive to only Ichigo. Only Ichigo can cross sowrds with someone and read their hearts. Hitsugaya was so angry at Aizen because he had no idea what Aizen hid in his heart. The entire point of the FB arc was that Ichigo was without powers so he could no longer fight against powerful opponents. Thus he lost the emotional connection he once was able to hold with his enemies. He was isolated in mind as well as body. He needed Unagiya.

    6) VCs are popular. Kubo himself stated in an interview that Hisagi ended up being more popular than he expected him to be. All mangas have fan service and after wrapping up the dark HM arc I think it's great to relax the manga with some fan service. Remember its a Shounen audience so you can't jsut keep throwing heavy themes at them. You have to lighten up the manga at times. The other Bankais were going to be saved for the Final arc because otherwise it would have been boring.

    7) Ichigo only has the same kind of power-ups that all Shounen protagonists have. Guess what? The battle with Aizen was short. That's what you were previously asking for so why complain? Kubo already covered the themes and ideas so he didn't necessarily need to spend 20+ chapters on it. In Bleach, characters and themes come before battles and power. It's not exactly like every other Shounen manga although it tends to follow the same framework. Besides Aizen was on a dimension below Ichigo. It wouldn't make sense for him to fight on par with him.

    8) He wants to show what kind of being Aizen was evolving into. Aizen wasn't a transcendent when he fought hte Captains.

    9) You're reading too much at face value. 'I will protect you' is a classic shounen idea but it's not the only thing Ichigo is all about. However since this is Shounen Kubo can't let Ichigo be too direct with what he means. Like the lesson of the Arrancar arc was that in battle you have to kill. One of the main problems with Ichigo in the SS arc was that he couldn't kill. He learnt to overcome that in the Arrancar arc. However you can't just have Ichigo yelling 'I learnt in battle I have to kill my opponent!'. The parents in Japan would be suing Kubo if he wrote that so instead he made it very subtle.

    10) That's th basis of a good literally title. If you study literature you'll know that a good title is one which doesn't give too much of the plot away. A good title is something ambiguous. That's why 'The Bite' is a good title. Even one of the chapters Zaraki fights Nnoitra is called 'The Undead 4' so I'm pretty sure Kubo is referring to Zaraki.

    Actually it's not because that's the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues. If you introduce concepts/issues and resolve them all in 1 arc then what are you going to do with the next arc? You could make up stuff but then it would have a high chance of clashing with stuff you've already established. That's a natural problem all writers have. Like when Kubo first wrote Bleach he had not designed the Menos evolution treee. When the first Menos Grande appeared Rukia said only the RG can beat them. Later Kubo had to retcon this idea (saying Rukia's academy textbook was out of date) as he detailed Menos and established their hierarchy. Why did Kubo have this problem? Because he didn't introduce the entire Menos evolution from the start. The most accurate story would be one in which the author has it planned out 100% from the start. However that's impossible in WSJ where you don't even know how long your series is going to last. Stuff like this is to be expected.

  9. #39
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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    1) He wanted to anger Ichigo into fighting at full strength. Grimmjow isn't the kind of guy who can understand insecurities about looking like a Hollow in front of your friend so he had no idea that fighting with his Vizard mask because it scared Inoue was the reason for Ichigo's indecision.

    2) Aizen himself stated he was watching Ichigo develop all along. This should be obvious.

    3) It shows that despite acting mature for his age, Hitsugaya still has one child-like quality: his indecision to kill morally grey characters. Compare Hitsugaya with Shunsui. Shunsui clearly saw Starkk had a good side to him but he still killed him because at the end of the day Starkk was still more loyal to Aizen. He had to die. Hitsugaya on the other hand just froze her and left her without killing her because he found it honourable how she cared for her Fraccion. The entire fight was to depict how Hitsugaya, the youngest, struggled with his duties as a Captain. He himself cares for his subordinates but he was preventing someone else who wanted to avenge her fallen comrades (much like how he wanted to avenge Momo) from doing so. This kind of development is not something you can rush otherwise it will feel forced.

    4) I don't know what translations you're reading but, in the RAW, for the entire Arrancar arc Ichigo states he has to defeat Aizen until he's about to head back ot KT through the Garganta. Only then does he say he has to kill Aizen. He surely went through trials in order to change his mind right?

    5) That doesn't really count because heart-reading is really an ability exclusive to only Ichigo. Only Ichigo can cross sowrds with someone and read their hearts. Hitsugaya was so angry at Aizen because he had no idea what Aizen hid in his heart. The entire point of the FB arc was that Ichigo was without powers so he could no longer fight against powerful opponents. Thus he lost the emotional connection he once was able to hold with his enemies. He was isolated in mind as well as body. He needed Unagiya.

    6) VCs are popular. Kubo himself stated in an interview that Hisagi ended up being more popular than he expected him to be. All mangas have fan service and after wrapping up the dark HM arc I think it's great to relax the manga with some fan service. Remember its a Shounen audience so you can't jsut keep throwing heavy themes at them. You have to lighten up the manga at times. The other Bankais were going to be saved for the Final arc because otherwise it would have been boring.

    7) Ichigo only has the same kind of power-ups that all Shounen protagonists have. Guess what? The battle with Aizen was short. That's what you were previously asking for so why complain? Kubo already covered the themes and ideas so he didn't necessarily need to spend 20+ chapters on it. In Bleach, characters and themes come before battles and power. It's not exactly like every other Shounen manga although it tends to follow the same framework. Besides Aizen was on a dimension below Ichigo. It wouldn't make sense for him to fight on par with him.

    8) He wants to show what kind of being Aizen was evolving into. Aizen wasn't a transcendent when he fought hte Captains.

    9) You're reading too much at face value. 'I will protect you' is a classic shounen idea but it's not the only thing Ichigo is all about. However since this is Shounen Kubo can't let Ichigo be too direct with what he means. Like the lesson of the Arrancar arc was that in battle you have to kill. One of the main problems with Ichigo in the SS arc was that he couldn't kill. He learnt to overcome that in the Arrancar arc. However you can't just have Ichigo yelling 'I learnt in battle I have to kill my opponent!'. The parents in Japan would be suing Kubo if he wrote that so instead he made it very subtle.

    10) That's th basis of a good literally title. If you study literature you'll know that a good title is one which doesn't give too much of the plot away. A good title is something ambiguous. That's why 'The Bite' is a good title. Even one of the chapters Zaraki fights Nnoitra is called 'The Undead 4' so I'm pretty sure Kubo is referring to Zaraki.

    Actually it's not because that's the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues. If you introduce concepts/issues and resolve them all in 1 arc then what are you going to do with the next arc? You could make up stuff but then it would have a high chance of clashing with stuff you've already established. That's a natural problem all writers have. Like when Kubo first wrote Bleach he had not designed the Menos evolution treee. When the first Menos Grande appeared Rukia said only the RG can beat them. Later Kubo had to retcon this idea (saying Rukia's academy textbook was out of date) as he detailed Menos and established their hierarchy. Why did Kubo have this problem? Because he didn't introduce the entire Menos evolution from the start. The most accurate story would be one in which the author has it planned out 100% from the start. However that's impossible in WSJ where you don't even know how long your series is going to last. Stuff like this is to be expected.
    1) So what did happen to Inoue? That was the point of this entire argument. Two separate villains do not falsely claim the same thing coincidentally? Yet it is never clarified.

    2) Aizen monitoring Ichigo's growth is different than Aizen wanting Ichigo to grow stronger. Studying Ichigo's hollow side for his own goal to transcend hollows and shinigami is one thing. Actively putting effort into paving the way for Ichigo to surpass him is another thing.

    3) No, Hitsugaya used that ability to end Halibel's life, hence "your life will end when the flowers bloom in the hundreds." There was no moral conflict going on in his head. Otherwise, the way he took care of Lupi, who was just bloodthirsty without reason, would have been different from how he took on Halibel.

    4) Except that every single foe he fought in Hueco Mundo, he never killed anyone on purpose; he always spared them and he showed regret when Ulquiorra died.
    So even in the hypothetical situation in which the wording difference between "defeat" and "kill" is significant enough to show Ichigo's growth, there hasn't been any significant change that was illustrated within Ichigo that would prompt him to suddenly gain the motivation to "kill" rather than "defeat" Aizen.

    5) You just pulled that "soul reading is an ability exclusive to Ichigo" out of nowhere. Nor is your claim that such ability to empathize with others simply disappeared into the ether once he lost his shinigami powers. Regardless, even if this is true, it does not explain why Ichigo would lose all that emotional maturity in a single swoop like that.

    6) Hisagi being popular or not does not justify or prove that the VC's participation in the Karakura town was necessary or essential in the final fight. Its absence would have made no difference. It has nothing to do with heavy themes. Just the way the story is being paced. That was the point.

    7) The length of the fight being relatively brief? I can deal with. If the fight with once-extremely-feared antagonist who built up all the tension and conflict for hundreds of chapters get beaten with little difficulty? Then that is anticlimactic. Hence having Ichigo becoming much stronger than Aizen took out a lot of steam from a potentially epic fight.

    8) Again, the best way to show Aizen's growth was to have high school students throw bottles at him? The chapters with them and Don Kanoji could have been thrown out. We could have skipped to Gin backstabbing Aizen and that still would have been enough to show that Aizen became so big that even flesh-eating poison is not enough to kill him. My point? Pointless filler chapters and "prop" side characters that throw pacing into a trashbin.

    9) You are making contradictions here. As everyone can agree, Ichigo's philosophy (and instinct) is to protect, not to kill. Nothing in the past chapters has changed that. In SS, Ichigo's goal was not to kill Byakuya, but to rescue Rukia and change his mind. We are given nothing to believe that such a decision was wrong, as we are rewarded with Byakuya eventually rescuing Rukia.
    The Arrancar arc was not about Ichigo learning to kill either. He never kills anyone. He even shows great regret and shame at the sight of Ulquiorra dying and admonishes Noitra for hurting Grimjow who was in no shape to fight. Every single one of his actions were taken for the sake of protecting everyone and he has never been shown to gain the desire or need to kill anyone.
    As you repeated multiple times, this is a shounen manga. As its target audience is little children, the author cannot complicate things and has showcased a single protagonist whose only motivating factor is his obligation to protect everything. And its simplicity is what makes it even more like a twelve-year-old's idea of a romantic fairy tale about vampires and werewolves.

    10) Claiming that the titles carry messages about the chapters they concern and claiming that the author carefully chose such titles n anticipation for a future arc are two different things. There is little, if not nothing, to strongly indicate that the title "Undead" was chosen for such a purpose.

    11) As you said "the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues." Hence, vaguely referring to unresolved/unprecedented ideas in the middle of nowhere serves no meaningful purpose. And I did not dispute the notion that retcons are unavoidable. It's actually for that very reason that Bleach's storylines, as a collective whole, is just messy.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    I used celebrity examples to illustrate that the concept is widely known/something people are aware of. If, as you generalized, our country was not accepting of it, then celebrities wouldn't make a show of it as those I mentioned did, and shows that popularized it wouldn't have an audience. Yet, the shows are there and celebrities that are a part of that culture do actually show themselves in public and are not shamed for it. Doesn't make it right, but it makes the point that it is accepted by a large number of people. I didn't say 'the greater number,' just a significant amount. That is a fact, not a generalization.

    Please do not put words in my mouth. That is very rude. I gave some celebrities as well known examples of open acceptance of an idea. If I mentioned random unknown people, it would hardly make a reference that a stranger would understand. Them being celebrities and in the public arena just makes a bridge for common understanding, since you are more likely to know a celebrity than someone not famous. That is not an argument that them being celebrities and doing what they want makes it right. That wasn't what I was saying at all.

    I will again assert that the existence of shows that not only acknowledge these 'May/December' romances, but point out the idea that you don't have to be young to still be sexy are not just present, but have a wide enough audience to show that there is approval of the idea that love may occur between an older and a younger person, and as long as they are of legal age to consent, while others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people.

    And I don't know why you are thinking 'ick' anyway. Honestly, young Isshin is cute and young Masaki is not only beautiful, but fiery and strong willed. Isshin wouldn't be a man if he wasn't knocked for a loop by that. Relax, it's a story about two people falling in love. And you don't know when or how they will yet. You should just relax and give the story a chance. Prejudging, of course you won't like it. That's your choice, of course, but you will miss out that way.
    You just made an argument that entirely centered around the claim that can be boiled down to: Celebrities accept it and do it--->Random people that I do not know (hence why you used celebrity examples) must also accept it and do it.

    As you, yourself pointed out, I do not know the mentality of strangers, yet you made the generalization that such celebrities and popularity behind TV shows (like those concerning cougars) that illustrate such behavior must indicate its wide acceptance among the general population. And I gave a couple of examples of TV shows that actually illustrate behavior that is NOT accepted by the general population.

    I did not put "words in [your] mouth."

    As for your justification of "May/December" Romances, my stance is just a personal preference and its my personal response. However, I understand that people consider it differently and accept that they are free to pursue any future together as long as they are both consenting adults. As you said "others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people." You cannot and do not have to logic me to think otherwise, so why spend a paragraph arguing its support?

    As for your third paragraph, that's the entire premise behind twilight, anyways, isn't it? Having a 100-year-old vampire looking like a 17-year-old, thus making the two a couple a visually, aesthetically acceptable picture that made it popular among pre-teen, female readers?
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 16, 2013 at 11:42 PM.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    1) So what did happen to Inoue? That was the point of this entire argument. Two separate villains do not falsely claim the same thing coincidentally? Yet it is never clarified.

    2) Aizen monitoring Ichigo's growth is different than Aizen wanting Ichigo to grow stronger. Studying Ichigo's hollow side for his own goal to transcend hollows and shinigami is one thing. Actively putting effort into paving the way for Ichigo to surpass him is another thing.

    3) No, Hitsugaya used that ability to end Halibel's life, hence "your life will end when the flowers bloom in the hundreds." There was no moral conflict going on in his head. Otherwise, the way he took care of Lupi, who was just bloodthirsty without reason, would have been different from how he took on Halibel.

    4) Except that every single foe he fought in Hueco Mundo, he never killed anyone on purpose; he always spared them and he showed regret when Ulquiorra died.
    So even in the hypothetical situation in which the wording difference between "defeat" and "kill" is significant enough to show Ichigo's growth, there hasn't been any significant change that was illustrated within Ichigo that would prompt him to suddenly gain the motivation to "kill" rather than "defeat" Aizen.

    5) You just pulled that "soul reading is an ability exclusive to Ichigo" out of nowhere. Nor is your claim that such ability to empathize with others simply disappeared into the ether once he lost his shinigami powers. Regardless, even if this is true, it does not explain why Ichigo would lose all that emotional maturity in a single swoop like that.

    6) Hisagi being popular or not does not justify or prove that the VC's participation in the Karakura town was necessary or essential in the final fight. Its absence would have made no difference. It has nothing to do with heavy themes. Just the way the story is being paced. That was the point.

    7) The length of the fight being relatively brief? I can deal with. If the fight with once-extremely-feared antagonist who built up all the tension and conflict for hundreds of chapters get beaten with little difficulty? Then that is anticlimactic. Hence having Ichigo becoming much stronger than Aizen took out a lot of steam from a potentially epic fight.

    8) Again, the best way to show Aizen's growth was to have high school students throw bottles at him? The chapters with them and Don Kanoji could have been thrown out. We could have skipped to Gin backstabbing Aizen and that still would have been enough to show that Aizen became so big that even flesh-eating poison is not enough to kill him. My point? Pointless filler chapters and "prop" side characters that throw pacing into a trashbin.

    9) You are making contradictions here. As everyone can agree, Ichigo's philosophy (and instinct) is to protect, not to kill. Nothing in the past chapters has changed that. In SS, Ichigo's goal was not to kill Byakuya, but to rescue Rukia and change his mind. We are given nothing to believe that such a decision was wrong, as we are rewarded with Byakuya eventually rescuing Rukia.
    The Arrancar arc was not about Ichigo learning to kill either. He never kills anyone. He even shows great regret and shame at the sight of Ulquiorra dying and admonishes Noitra for hurting Grimjow who was in no shape to fight. Every single one of his actions were taken for the sake of protecting everyone and he has never been shown to gain the desire or need to kill anyone.
    As you repeated multiple times, this is a shounen manga. As its target audience is little children, the author cannot complicate things and has showcased a single protagonist whose only motivating factor is his obligation to protect everything. And its simplicity is what makes it even more like a twelve-year-old's idea of a romantic fairy tale about vampires and werewolves.

    10) Claiming that the titles carry messages about the chapters they concern and claiming that the author carefully chose such titles n anticipation for a future arc are two different things. There is little, if not nothing, to strongly indicate that the title "Undead" was chosen for such a purpose.

    11) As you said "the whole purpose of having arcs: to resolve all the concepts/issues." Hence, vaguely referring to unresolved/unprecedented ideas in the middle of nowhere serves no meaningful purpose. And I did not dispute the notion that retcons are unavoidable. It's actually for that very reason that Bleach's storylines, as a collective whole, is just messy.

    ---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------



    You just made an argument that entirely centered around the claim that can be boiled down to: Celebrities accept it and do it--->Random people that I do not know (hence why you used celebrity examples) must also accept it and do it.

    As you, yourself pointed out, I do not know the mentality of strangers, yet you made the generalization that such celebrities and popularity behind TV shows (like those concerning cougars) that illustrate such behavior must indicate its wide acceptance among the general population. And I gave a couple of examples of TV shows that actually illustrate behavior that is NOT accepted by the general population.

    I did not put "words in [your] mouth."

    As for your justification of "May/December" Romances, my stance is just a personal preference and its my personal response. However, I understand that people consider it differently and accept that they are free to pursue any future together as long as they are both consenting adults. As you said "others may have their opinions and say 'ick' that is a reflection on their own tastes and not a general reaction of the majority of people." You cannot and do not have to logic me to think otherwise, so why spend a paragraph arguing its support?

    As for your third paragraph, that's the entire premise behind twilight, anyways, isn't it? Having a 100-year-old vampire looking like a 17-year-old, thus making the two a couple a visually, aesthetically acceptable picture that made it popular among pre-teen, female readers?
    For all but your last paragraph, we are destined to disagree so no more need for us to argue the point. And for the last, I hope you aren't actually thinking I enjoyed Twilight. I thought it was eye-rollingly stupid. Just devour the darned girl and have done with the immature drama. And for the record, Masaki is a far better role model than that insipid, self centered girl in Twilight will ever be. That you would put the two on the same table to compare them in this thread is cringeworthy. Isshin too is far more heroic, broad minded and accepting than any guy in Twilight. Not a good comparison.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    So we got Isshin, a shinigami who could potentially be 100+ years old who inevitably ends up with/pining for a high school girl who is also a Quincy...

    A super old, albeit attractive dude falling in love with a girl who's part of a race/group that he is suppose to exterminate, and that girl loving him back despite the dangers shinigami pose to her as a Quincy....

    So....who wants to start doing a Team Isshin vs. Team Uryuu competition just for sh*ts and giggles?
    They're both just Romeo and Juliet; especially Twilight with the he is dead, I'll kill myself plot.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    For all but your last paragraph, we are destined to disagree so no more need for us to argue the point. And for the last, I hope you aren't actually thinking I enjoyed Twilight. I thought it was eye-rollingly stupid. Just devour the darned girl and have done with the immature drama. And for the record, Masaki is a far better role model than that insipid, self centered girl in Twilight will ever be. That you would put the two on the same table to compare them in this thread is cringeworthy. Isshin too is far more heroic, broad minded and accepting than any guy in Twilight. Not a good comparison.
    Never said I thought you enjoyed Twilight, nor did I imply that Masaki is identical to the girl in Twilight. Here is what I said in the opening post:

    "So we got Isshin, a shinigami who could potentially be 100+ years old who inevitably ends up with/pining for a high school girl who is also a Quincy...

    A super old, albeit attractive dude falling in love with a girl who's part of a race/group that he is suppose to exterminate, and that girl loving him back despite the dangers shinigami pose to her as a Quincy...."

    You drew all the other conclusions from no basis.

    Besides, we don't even know much about Masaki. Other than the fact that she's one dimensional (the obligatory All-Bleach's-Good-Guys-Must-Be-Self-Sacrificingly-Heroic) that she does not feel much different than the dozens of characters we've been introduced to so far. Her heroic sense of justice may be more respectable than a high school girl going through a 4-book-long dilemma about who she should sleep with, but that does not make her that much more interesting or complex. And just for clarification, this does not imply anything about my stance on who's the better role model.

    Same goes for Isshin.

    PS: Your argument about people accept celebrities+watch TV shows-->Audience agree with its content is just plain informal fallacy, not a matter of difference in opinion.

    PPS: It must also be acknowledged that the twilight girl's main problem isn't choosing between the werewolf and the vampire. It's her lack of self-worth and her desire to protect others who are willing to sacrifice themselves for her well-being despite her belief that she's not worth it. Doesn't change the fact that the book franchise is badly written. But it does make the case that Masaki is not that much better characterized or complex than the girl in twilight.
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 17, 2013 at 12:50 AM.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    Never said I thought you enjoyed Twilight, nor did I imply that Masaki is identical to the girl in Twilight. Here is what I said in the opening post:

    "So we got Isshin, a shinigami who could potentially be 100+ years old who inevitably ends up with/pining for a high school girl who is also a Quincy...

    A super old, albeit attractive dude falling in love with a girl who's part of a race/group that he is suppose to exterminate, and that girl loving him back despite the dangers shinigami pose to her as a Quincy...."

    You drew all the other conclusions from no basis.

    Besides, we don't even know much about Masaki. Other than the fact that she's one dimensional (the obligatory All-Bleach's-Good-Guys-Must-Be-Self-Sacrificingly-Heroic) that she does not feel much different than the dozens of characters we've been introduced to so far. Her heroic sense of justice may be more respectable than a high school girl going through a 4-book-long dilemma about who she should sleep with, but that does not make her that much more interesting or complex. And just for clarification, this does not imply anything about my stance on who's the better role model.

    Same goes for Isshin.

    PS: Your argument about people accept celebrities+watch TV shows-->Audience agree with its content is just plain informal fallacy, not a matter of difference in opinion.

    PPS: It must also be acknowledged that the twilight girl's main problem isn't choosing between the werewolf and the vampire. It's her lack of self-worth and her desire to protect others who are willing to sacrifice themselves for her well-being despite her belief that she's not worth it. Doesn't change the fact that the book franchise is badly written. But it does make the case that Masaki is not that much better characterized or complex than the girl in twilight.
    You're like a dog with a bone, aren't you? I NEVER said that celebrities doing something equals audience agreement with it. YOU said that was my argument. And you are wrong. I never made that argument. I said that the celebrities I named were examples of people who were different in age, but displayed their love proudly and were not shamed publicly, shunned or otherwise punished for that behavior by our society. I was stating that it showed that their choice was generally accepted. If it was NOT generally accepted, then society would reject them by speaking out against them and/or taking an action against them. It DOES NOT mean that EVERYONE accepts them, but it does mean that it is accepted enough that there is no punishment for that behavior. You are equating acceptance of something with agreement to it, but that's not how it is. Acceptance can also mean that people don't DISAGREE strongly enough to take action against it. Do you see groups protesting any celebrities in these relationships publicly? Are there angry mobs demanding the cessation of making movies, books and art that depicts May/December romances? Does it mean everyone AGREES with the behavior? Obviously not. But if they don't ACT AGAINST it, then they accept that it's a viable path, even if they, themselves do not agree with it. That is the essence of what it is to be American. American society understands that people have different tastes and makes allowances for that. Our laws are meant to keep behaviors from becoming destructive, meaning that if enough people in this country felt that it was morally wrong for an older person to love a younger person, there would be public outcry to change the law. There is not, which means by default, society accepts the action, whether or not it is agreed with or condoned. Do you understand that those are two different things?

    And you are completely off base in your assessment of Masaki. She has proven to be a person with a strong moral compass (goes to help, even knowing she may be helping a shinigami), compassionate and courageous...even a bit reckless. She is admirable in that way and stands out as a strong character who protects, rather than a wimpy, self-involved teen who wonders which undead boyfriend to sleep with. Add to that, the impression that Masaki has made in just a few manga chapters, which is more than that ridiculous girl makes in all of the Twilight novels. Masaki isn't depending on others, she is strong and standing up to protect others. She is not whining about the unfairness of her situation, she is acting to change it by fighting the source of the injustice (here, the hollow). There is really no comparison between the two at all. Masaki's connection with Isshin isn't one of 'Ooh! Save me!" She and Isshin stand up equally and protect each other from the hollow. There is already respect between them that is probably going to be the basis for their relationship. Isshin doesn't see her as a wimpy girl who needs saving (cue Orihime...), he is wowed by her unswerving courage that borders on recklessness. And we've seen already that Isshin has that same quality. That is a very reasonable foundation for love. Bleach is not like Twilight except for the fact that Isshin is a soul with a longer lifespan and therefore has lived more 'years' than Masaki. But that is a very, very thin and shaky comparison. The characters are not as alike as you assert. The Bleach characters achieve more depth in much less story.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird0ne View Post
    You're like a dog with a bone, aren't you? I NEVER said that celebrities doing something equals audience agreement with it. YOU said that was my argument. And you are wrong. I never made that argument. I said that the celebrities I named were examples of people who were different in age, but displayed their love proudly and were not shamed publicly, shunned or otherwise punished for that behavior by our society. I was stating that it showed that their choice was generally accepted. If it was NOT generally accepted, then society would reject them by speaking out against them and/or taking an action against them. It DOES NOT mean that EVERYONE accepts them, but it does mean that it is accepted enough that there is no punishment for that behavior. You are equating acceptance of something with agreement to it, but that's not how it is. Acceptance can also mean that people don't DISAGREE strongly enough to take action against it. Do you see groups protesting any celebrities in these relationships publicly? Are there angry mobs demanding the cessation of making movies, books and art that depicts May/December romances? Does it mean everyone AGREES with the behavior? Obviously not. But if they don't ACT AGAINST it, then they accept that it's a viable path, even if they, themselves do not agree with it. That is the essence of what it is to be American. American society understands that people have different tastes and makes allowances for that. Our laws are meant to keep behaviors from becoming destructive, meaning that if enough people in this country felt that it was morally wrong for an older person to love a younger person, there would be public outcry to change the law. There is not, which means by default, society accepts the action, whether or not it is agreed with or condoned. Do you understand that those are two different things?

    And you are completely off base in your assessment of Masaki. She has proven to be a person with a strong moral compass (goes to help, even knowing she may be helping a shinigami), compassionate and courageous...even a bit reckless. She is admirable in that way and stands out as a strong character who protects, rather than a wimpy, self-involved teen who wonders which undead boyfriend to sleep with. Add to that, the impression that Masaki has made in just a few manga chapters, which is more than that ridiculous girl makes in all of the Twilight novels. Masaki isn't depending on others, she is strong and standing up to protect others. She is not whining about the unfairness of her situation, she is acting to change it by fighting the source of the injustice (here, the hollow). There is really no comparison between the two at all. Masaki's connection with Isshin isn't one of 'Ooh! Save me!" She and Isshin stand up equally and protect each other from the hollow. There is already respect between them that is probably going to be the basis for their relationship. Isshin doesn't see her as a wimpy girl who needs saving (cue Orihime...), he is wowed by her unswerving courage that borders on recklessness. And we've seen already that Isshin has that same quality. That is a very reasonable foundation for love. Bleach is not like Twilight except for the fact that Isshin is a soul with a longer lifespan and therefore has lived more 'years' than Masaki. But that is a very, very thin and shaky comparison. The characters are not as alike as you assert. The Bleach characters achieve more depth in much less story.
    1) you are horribly confusing "acceptance" and "tolerance," or perhaps "indifference." And you still haven't made a valid argument that strongly disproves my claim that you made a weak connection between celebrities/pop culture and the general population's mentality. And don't deny that you didn't make that connection, because you did so in two separate posts.

    2) I never disputed that Masaki has virtues that are absent in Twilight. Only that the degree of the characterization the author has put into the character is almost insignificant(compared to other courageous and just characters we've been introduced to) and simplistic. She wants to save others for her sense of justice? That's fine, just add her to the pile of dozens of other characters who have demonstrated that in the past hundreds of chapters. She has no genuine distinguishing factor that truly separates her from others. None of your argument disproved that.

    3) Of course the comparison was thin. I did not call for a word-for-word comparison for every single element in the story telling style between the two works. I simply started a thread mentioning the two premises behind the two works that seemed rather similar. And you haven't really disproved that effectively either.

    Jeeze, cool down. And make sure that your claim is strongly supported by your premise and that your argument actually, directly concerns what my claims are.

    PS: Your arguments in support of Masaki's virtues are actually reminding me of more similarities...as the girl in twilight actually does eventually grow up. She becomes independent, denounces relying on others close to her, and takes active action to protect what she believes is just. Again, not insinuating that twilight is a work of art, but I am strongly against not doing my citations justice by leaving out details like that.

    Besides, relax. What I'm saying essentially can be summed up as "the details and characterization Kubo put into a 54-page picture book are equivalent to what Stephanie Meyer managed by the end of a 4-book series."
    Last edited by SuperSaiyan4; April 17, 2013 at 02:17 AM.

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    Re: So, seems Bleach is getting Twilighty...

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSaiyan4 View Post
    1) you are horribly confusing "acceptance" and "tolerance," or perhaps "indifference." And you still haven't made a valid argument that strongly disproves my claim that you made a weak connection between celebrities/pop culture and the general population's mentality. And don't deny that you didn't make that connection, because you did so in two separate posts.

    2) I never disputed that Masaki has virtues that are absent in Twilight. Only that the degree of the characterization the author has put into the character is almost nondescript (compared to other courageous and just characters) and simplistic. She wants to save others for her sense of justice? That's fine, just add her to the pile of dozens of other characters who have demonstrated that in the past hundreds of chapters. She has no genuine distinguishing factor that truly separates her from others. None of your argument disproved that.

    3) Of course the comparison was thin. I did not call for a word-for-word comparison for every single element in the story telling style between the two works. I simply started a thread mentioning the two premises behind the two works that seemed rather similar. And you haven't really disproved that effectively either.

    Jeeze, cool down. And make sure that your claim is strongly supported by your premise and that your argument actually, directly concerns what my claims are.
    There is no problem with my logic, only a complete refusal on your part to accept any view but your own. I gave sound arguments supported by facts and you tried to twist my words into something that I never argued in the first place. I know what acceptance, tolerance and indifference mean. I find it insulting that you imply that I don't. You are the one who tried to equate 'acceptance' with 'agreement.' I was arguing that those two were not the same thing. The only argument I was making all along that you simply refuse to understand is that if people did not accept May/December romances and thought that they were truly destructive, there would be an outcry to change the law. There is not. So, it is safe to conclude that not enough of our society has a problem with it to see a need to use the law to control it. There is nothing weak about that argument.

    Again, about Masaki, you are way off. Kubo has had a mere few chapters to introduce her and already you are complaining about lack of characterization. Twilight is a finished series. Do you not understand that comparing the two is not reasonable, because one is a completed story and one is a work in progress? THAT is a weak premise.

    And I don't have to prove or disprove anything to your satisfaction. The works are not, in my view, similar at all. Isshin is a young (for a shinigami), powerful and reckless captain who encounters a strong, beautiful girl doing what comes naturally to her. She is a much stronger and livelier character in just a few chapters than the Twilight girl is in all of those books. And Masaki isn't mooning about, wondering what to do and questioning everything. She is actually a pretty admirable person already. And unlike almost every female character in Bleach, she does not fall under either the 'weak and must be saved' category or the 'strong, but inherently loud and annoying' category. I think that, given the little amount of material we have, it is not fair to compare the development of those characters. They are literally worlds apart. And that argument is completely supported by the facts of the story as produced so far. Just because you do not think so does not make me wrong. I have made a reasonable argument and supported it with examples. You can't argue the point, so you attack the examples. It just means you can't disprove what I'm saying. Why don't we put the shoe on the other foot here. Why don't you prove what you are saying? It's easy to attack a person's ideas to distract from your own. So, what evidence exactly equates Bleach with Twilight, other than your admittedly thin argument about old supernatural person chases young human? How exactly is Isshin like the boys in Twilight (other than being essentially ancient, undead souls)? How is Masaki in any way (besides just age) like the girl from twilight? You've built a big argument on a few weak facts. Lets see what supports that.

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