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Thread: Naruto 629 Discussion

  1. #271
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    Quote Originally Posted by naruto reader View Post
    Are you saying that what he did was rubish? Seriously? Harishama achieved peace. His. Way wasn't perfect but was the only one avaliable. Wars happen, people sacrifice themselves in wars for friends, country and family every day. To say that he could stop all of that its just unrealistic. Even if Naruto now unites the ninja world there would still be sacrifices to keep it together, and in a much bigger scale. That is reality, in your mind apparently u want to live in a genjutsu world, its like a coma I guess, u might be alive but u really aren't.
    Good one, because I am honestly saying that Obito's genjutsu is the right thing to do. Also, Hashirama and his entire 'will of rubbish' is nothing but a third-grade trope for fanaticism and its hearty alignment with Jingoism. So in short; yes, it was all but a pile of snarled up rubbish.

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  3. #272
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    You obviously have been unable to grasp the whole abstract reality concept Kishimoto has thrown into the mix. Read into it, and you might just grasp what Tobi is endeavouring to say.

    Precisely. What did he accomplish anyway? All he did was escalate small clan conflicts over to village level conspiracies, onslaughts, and four great ninja wars. Conversely, I cannot believe anyone would support this retarded jackass who not only sparked an arms race but gave a philosophy to turn ninja system into a juggernaut to which people are constantly sacrificed. Too hell with his 'will of fire' rubbish.
    It's not that I can't grasp it, it's that his descent from Obito into Tobi was so mind-bogglingly stupid that it completely undermines the intimidation his philosophy is supposed to present. He wants to believe he's a fucking Final Fantasy villain, but he's just a super-powered teenage girl with a ME-complex. I'll take Hashirama's ATTEMPT at peace through free will any day. It's similar to Nagato's plan, but at least it gives everyone a weapon. And I don't know about you, but I'd judge the capability of the jinchuuriki over the number of tails any day. Gaara's sheer power easily proves the tail thing is stupid on the small scale, and only really applies between bijuu to cement Kurama as top dog.

    ...fox. Whatever.

    ---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    Good one, because I am honestly saying that Obito's genjutsu is the right thing to do. Also, Hashirama and his entire 'will of rubbish' is nothing but a third-grade trope for fanaticism and its hearty alignment with Jingoism. So in short; yes, it was all but a pile of snarled up rubbish.
    The Moon's Eye plan will probably kill everyone. So, global genocide is your preference? That's so dark and edgy, man.

  4. #273
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member khaja_200923's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    well hopefully naruto will go into sage mode again and a little fight b/n kakashi and tobi and finally minato and others will arrive by the time chapter ends.

    that sums it up and it will be a boring chapter.
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ESa1mK9qEH4/Tqc81G0QU-I/AAAAAAAAAAg/JKUClDfeZNk/w550-h478-no/kyuubisagechakramode+by+khaja_200923.JPG

  5. #274
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    It's not that I can't grasp it, it's that his descent from Obito into Tobi was so mind-bogglingly stupid that it completely undermines the intimidation his philosophy is supposed to present. He wants to believe he's a fucking Final Fantasy villain, but he's just a super-powered teenage girl with a ME-complex. I'll take Hashirama's ATTEMPT at peace through free will any day. It's similar to Nagato's plan, but at least it gives everyone a weapon. And I don't know about you, but I'd judge the capability of the jinchuuriki over the number of tails any day. Gaara's sheer power easily proves the tail thing is stupid on the small scale, and only really applies between bijuu to cement Kurama as top dog.

    ...fox. Whatever.

    ---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------



    The Moon's Eye plan will probably kill everyone. So, global genocide is your preference? That's so dark and edgy, man.
    Hashirama preached free will through the obsessively and grossly indoctrinated 'will of fire'? Tell me you are joking.

    So?

    I dislike both ends as I have repeatedly said over the forums. It's not as if Hashirama's will that fetters people to the downright unethical ninja system is any better. I know I am so cool.

  6. #275
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall313 View Post
    Wow. So would you enlighten us and give us a manga scan that shows minato knew that rin was being kidnapped and he did nothing to saved her? Come on. If you have a manga scan, then there's no doubt minato is a shitty teacher. But if you haven't, then it also means that it's just your s********ty opinion. Come on man, you don't know anything nor kishi said that minato knew everything on what happened in that day. You sound that you knew everything in this manga, but in reality, you don't.

    What makes you think that minato just let kakashi saved rin all alone if he knew everything? YOu really think minato is just like that? Holly cow, nowadays, uchiha's fans are really awesome with their interpretation and their opinion.

    If minato knew that rin was being kidnapped by the mist, then he don't need any platoon of ninjas to accompany him. With just himself, the entire mist ninjas would be killed in a blink of a second if he wants to.

    BEfore stating that minato is a shitty teacher, you should have a manga scan to support your accusation and not just because you hated that legendary ninja.

    ---------- Post added at 07:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 AM ----------



    No. The 7 or 8 bijuus already agreed that it was naruto. And now that the juubi seen the rikudou to naruto, then it means that juubi feel threatened by naruto's presence and chakra. He seen the rikudou because naruto is the next successor of the sage. It wasn't madara nor it was sasuke. It's naruto.

    MAdara is just a delusional ninja who really think he was the next rikudou, but sad to say, it was naruto. The juubi didn't feel threatened nor afraid of their rinnegan, but clearly the juubi was afraid on naruto's rikudouness. So much in a sense that he even formed a handsign to attack naruto.
    The trolling continues!

    Seriously tough, I am neither with the Uchiha or the Senju, both sides are completely off their rocker when it comes to ideology.

    Obito and Madara can't stand that the world didn't go the way they wanted, it's fact, their motivation is to create now what they didn't achieve and what they think nobody will ever achieve.

    Madara just wants to brainwash humanity to rewrite history so that he was never second best to Hashirama and actually lived up to the expectations of his clan and his brothers.

    Obito just wants to brainwash humanity to rewrite the present so that Rin is still alive, Kakashi and others heroes aren't self loathing failures and Obito is able to live up to his own expectations about heroes and ideals.

    The curse of hatred is basically clinging to a scenario of "what could have been if this world didn't f*** up everything I sought to accomplish" and trying to force that scenario on reality instead of acknowledging it and moving foward.

    It solves everyone's problems now but it comes at the cost of denying the future for those who came to be under reality as it is. Basically robbing future generations from trying to accomplish anything on their own.

    Hashirama, the Kages and everyone who follows the will of fire are hypocrites, the basic premise of the "Will of Fire" is that people should protect the village for generations to come just as the previous generations did for them. However, when you look at it from a different angle it basically means sacrificing yourself to keep the status quo and passing down the unsolved quest of peace to the next generation.

    This is what Madara tried to tell Hashirama in the valley of the end, the constant struggle of shinobi will lead to absolutely nothing because people essentially accommodate to the notion someone yet to be born will solve their problems.

    It is a direct take to the real world, our world, where most people just confort themselves to a life under many injustices and oppression (most nations aren't democracies and even those are deeply flawed) because they either don't want to risk losing what they currently have or simply await eternally for a messiah to come fix their problems. It's just a silent state of struggle.

    Basically it gives everyone a future but doesn't solve anyone's problems on the long run, it will essentially trap humanity in a cycle which gives future generations the same problems their fathers tried and failed to resolve.

    While the manga simply takes that Naruto is the messiah who will fix things up, I reject that notion, the only thing Naruto ever did in the whole manga was being knucklehead who never gives up and that just inspired people to be less cynic instead of attributing to Naruto any actual changes.

    What comes as an even worse bother is that Naruto hardly overcame all his trials on his own, whereas Nagato and Obito went insane after experiencing a great loss and being alone, Naruto just had the sheer luck of having his father, his mother, his girlfriend and even his inner demon intervene whenever he reached the point of no return.

    The thing is that the shinobi nations united not because of Naruto, they banded in together because Akatsuki captured the tailed beasts and exacted several terrorist attacks on the allied countries while doing so.

    Nobody except Tsunade and Gaara tought of Naruto as nothing more than a war objective until he escaped to the battlefield and reminded everyone he took after Minato's balls. Before this he was just the hero of Konoha yet a complete stranger or possible enemy to all other countries.

    This is why Sasuke's story feels more interesting than that of Naruto, it deals with the real problems of the shinobi system and it's contraditions.

    Whereas Naruto keeps afirming that friendship is magic and that sheer determination will fix things somehow, Sasuke learned the dark price his brother and clan payed to achieve peace and will try to use that for something better.

    Ironically, I can see Sasuke turning out exactly like Tobirama in the future because he both clings to the ideals and sacrifices which allowed humanity to move foward yet acknowledges that reality is different from people's expectation and a compromise needs to be achieved.

    Naruto's and Hashirama's wills and Obito's and Madara's wills are the two sides of the same wrong coin. They both put their dreams above what reality is and because of that they become blind to their mistakes.

    Hashirama just neglected the unsolved power dispute with the Uchiha in favour of taking everyone into his dream village and rejecting the very notion that people would have conflicting views within it to the point of killing family and friends who threatened it.

    The logical conclusion of Konoha, as demonstrated by the Uchiha clan massacre, is no better than the Moon Eye Plan. It simply denies people their freedom of a divergent opinion and forces them to accept the village's will or face death.

    Naruto is dishing out heroism and guts with no real answer to world peace, he is doing the same mistake his father did by throwing his life away in the hopes that somehow things will turn out for the better without measuring the negative impacts it will have on others or elaborating on a concrete solution.

    The logical conclusion of Naruto's determination is either dying a bloody martyr like his father or ending up like Obito. He simply refuses to compromise any of his utopian ideals to the point of going to the brink of death until he either dies or the constant streak of sacrifices taken to protect his goals actually breaks him.

    Madara is mindful of all the failures the shinobi system and actually offers a concrete solution to it's problems but his solution is just a travestite for rejecting your problems and forcing humanity to accept lunacy so that ideals can pretend to come into fruition.

    The logical conclusion of the Moon Eye Plan, as criticized by everyone on the internet, is that it robs humanity of it's free will just so that a power hungry madman can convince everyone to forget his mistakes as well as their own to enjoy the peace of an illusion.

    Obito is dishing out angst and ranting with no real answer to his own problems, he is basically doing the same mistake Nagato did by throwing hope away for a concrete solution that completely dismisses negative impacts or makes the world really better.

    The logical conclusion of Obito's nihilism is either dying an irredeamable man who failed everything or accomplishing an ultimate goal that leads to nothing. He simply refuses to open up to any sane argument until someone either snaps and kills him or he winds up throwing the world into an illusion that ultimately fails to close the wound in his heart just like how Nagato found out his solution was nothing more than a rubbish attempt to lash out the pain he had suffered.

    Pure ideology with no compromise ultimately leads to ruin. We have crusaders, jihadists, nazis and communists amongst plenty of ideologies which sought to create an utopia for mankind to prove how much horrible it can get when people abandon their rationality in favour of impossible dreams.

    That's why the one true path is that of Tobirama and Sasuke, people who don't take the world for peaches but also doesn't give up on it either.

    Itachi and Shisui had the right idea of putting peace above their lives and that of their families, they might have been wrong in how they executed if and for whom they did it but in the end they prevented a world war and that is much more than what Naruto or Hashirama did by sticking to childish dreams and dragging the world down into a world war because of it.

    The thing is, putting Konoha aside, the chaos and destruction illustrated by the world wars and the warring clans era is more than a justification to do any sacrifice to prevent it.

    Even tough Tobirama's plan to settle things up with the Uchiha back fired horribly, he sought a concrete solution which honored the ideals of Konoha to put aside his own grudge with the Uchiha while taking into account the grayness of dealing with a potentional source of instability for his country.

    Unfortunately, only Uchihas like Kagami got the idea that the clan had to compromise some of it's sovereignty for the greater goal of peace.

    In the end I blame more Danzou and Hiruzen for letting the Uchiha going to blunder than I blame Tobirama. Hiruzen once more ignored reality in favor of idealism and that allowed Danzou to subvert Tobirama's goals of compromise to an dystopian nightmare of emotionless shinobi serving as will-less tolls for their immaculate villages.

    Had Hiruzen been more assertive with the Uchiha and Orochimaru rather than ignoring their slippage to darkness whilist babbling about idealistic crap then we would not have had 80% of the problems the series currently has. Heck, had he told Danzou to shove it and stop being a dick we might not even have had any problems at all.

    That's why I can see Sasuke, by inheriting Itachi's will and learning from his mistakes, as the only person in the world who can find a true solution for peace following Tobirama's trail of compromise.

    Sasuke knows how dark and painful the world truly is and that true heroes like his brother do fail and face despair in their silent sacrifices for peace, however, he still choses to protect the world because he finally understood that reality and the true "Will of Fire" are not about believing in peace and sacrificing yourself to keep those ideals alive in others.

    The true "Will of Fire" is about not letting the sacrifices of those who died for peace to go in vain and doing what it takes to make those dreams become a reality for the newer generation who are yet to come.

    By accepting the inherent flaws of reality and making a compromise with people who differ from your ideals, you can bring balance and stability through dialogue and negotiation just how Konoha came to be between Uchiha and Senju.

    If you try to make dreams real in an imperfect world, you will fail and die miserably. If you try to create a perfect world for an imperfect dream, you might succeed but that will sacrifice everyone for a lie you keep tellling yourself.

    An end to conflict is impossible because humanity has different views and opinions which are part of what defines us as different individuals. However, lasting peace, tough not perpetual, can be achieved by compromising even under harsh terms to keep everyone from going to extreme measures (i.e. wars, terrorism and abduction) to further their own goals.
    Last edited by 1337 haxor; May 11, 2013 at 08:09 PM.

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  8. #276
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member badluckartist's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    grossly indoctrinated
    HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAAAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 haxor View Post
    Ironically, I can see Sasuke turning out exactly like Tobirama in the future because he both clings to the ideals and sacrifices which allowed humanity to move foward yet acknowledges that reality is different from people's expectation and a compromise needs to be achieved.

    ...

    That's why the one true path is that of Tobirama and Sasuke, people who don't take the world for peaches but also doesn't give up on it either.
    This is one thing I think a lot of people missed during the whole OMG TOBIRAMA IS SO EVIL HURDURR part of the Hokage talk. Tobirama and Sasuke have a LOT in common, and it actually paints Sasuke in a more believable and likeable light, if you have any sort of open mind about the comparison. Naruto is thoroughly black-and-white in his morals, and Sasuke is slowly finding his true tone of grey: a shade that clearly wants to find a middle ground between the Hashirama-forced idealism of Tobirama and the blanket-dickery of Danzou. In fact I wouldn't doubt it if Sasuke actually developed something like a global version of Root, if he ever smartens up and founds a village.

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  10. #277
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    The Moon's Eye plan will probably kill everyone. So, global genocide is your preference? That's so dark and edgy, man.
    To be fair though, the world would be pretty peaceful if everyone was dead. It's technically the most peaceful things can get.

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  12. #278
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Manta33's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    The moon's eye plan is an answer to the ninja system? Kinda like the human instrumentality project is an answer..More like a substitution of nature for a dmt trip you don't wake up from. And one that someone else gets to write for you to top it off. It's just an attempt by a human to play God.

    I have to argue that Naruto and Harashima aren't naive. Harashima sought to end war through unification and tolerance. Instead of a perpetual war involving innocent civilians the world gained nuclear weapons or bijuu in this manga. And the threat of cataclysmic destruction taught the ninja world restraint. The wars ongoing are on a smaller scale then they were in the past and the fighting forces can even come together in a crisis to overcome the threat of a few dangerous terrorists. He won and so did his plan. War will never disappear, but its scale can be checked. So basically instead of blood being spilled with no progress, he found a way to make it productive. Win.

    Kishi may make Naruto redundant, and his writing of fights may have lost there intrigue to random displays of power from undeveloped characters, and the god damn Jump character rankings, but he is right. He believes in friendship above all else because that is what saved him from his loneliness. He knows that everyone wants to connect deep down and so he won't give up on people. Essentially Naruto is a follower of the golden rule, which is still making Hammurabi look a little dumb.

    Effectively, Naruto is protecting everyone because otherwise there would be nothing left to fight for, Madara would win. The 9 tails can't beat what he's up against, no strategy has been effective, so he's idling. But what he hasn't stopped doing is communicating. And the fact that he is open minded, and connected with the bijuu earlier, instead of chaining them and forcing them to fight, is going give him the advantage. Equanimity and respect can take you far and he has both. And by the way crazy Harashima's new world has so far kept civilians out of this conflict. What was that about failing?
    Last edited by Manta33; May 12, 2013 at 02:23 AM.

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  14. #279
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member PLfighter's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    After this chapter is one good thing obito is just empty crazy asshole to kill and Kishi will not waste panel to his crapy talk and is chance to hokage arives to stop jubi atack

  15. #280
    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Xiraiya's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    Lord, the regular posters here apparently lost their sanity this week.

    In any case we now know Obito isn't just doing this because he was friend zoned but is doing this because he's completely lost his mind. I'm rather curious about the fact his phasing is affected when coming into contact with Kakashi, surprisingly it's not something I had considered before.

  16. #281
    Banned 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
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    Re: Naruto 629 Spoiler Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    To be fair though, the world would be pretty peaceful if everyone was dead. It's technically the most peaceful things can get.
    What is peace if you can't feel it? The point is to have peace in the living world.

  17. #282
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Knightmare of heaven 0's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    As long as humans exist,love would be there.As long as love would linger so would hate.Love for one's village,clan,sibling whatever it might be,as long as it's there so would hate >_> If one loves something he'd have to fight to protect it.So wars do happen and peace can't be really attained.

    Well then there might be only one version of peace,peace which can't be felt....?XD Humans themselves bear things like jealous and other stuff.We're just animals with sense and are instinctual beings so it's only natural that wars,hate exist as long as humans themselves XD So yeah true peace might be unattainable >_>

  18. #283
    Registered User 九千以上だ! / Kyuusen Ijou Da! / It's Over 9000! mattiaildivino's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    Ok,I will say just this: rin's death's explanation had to be what would have brought Obito's redemption. But he has always been aware of that,and it's better,imo,otherwise obito would have really been a loser,if he had been acting like that without even knowing the truth. yet,now that the explanation cannot be used by kakashi anymore,obito shouldn't be redeemed either,and if he will,it will likely be due to talk no jutsu,and i wouldn't stand it!

  19. #284
    Reviewer 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member otomo20's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto 629 Discussion / 630 Predictions

    almost every character in Naruto dies redeemed, sorry.

  20. #285
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member 1337 haxor's Avatar
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    Cool Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by badluckartist View Post
    HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAAAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    ---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------



    This is one thing I think a lot of people missed during the whole OMG TOBIRAMA IS SO EVIL HURDURR part of the Hokage talk. Tobirama and Sasuke have a LOT in common, and it actually paints Sasuke in a more believable and likeable light, if you have any sort of open mind about the comparison. Naruto is thoroughly black-and-white in his morals, and Sasuke is slowly finding his true tone of grey: a shade that clearly wants to find a middle ground between the Hashirama-forced idealism of Tobirama and the blanket-dickery of Danzou. In fact I wouldn't doubt it if Sasuke actually developed something like a global version of Root, if he ever smartens up and founds a village.
    Actually, considering that Tobirama sought to build Konoha's infrastructure and establish a shinobi code of conduct, I believe Sasuke will be more prone to create something like the United Nations where the community of countries can express their differences through dialogue rather than guns blazing.

    I can imagine Sasuke will try and turn the shinobi alliance into some kind of international peace keeping force, instead of competing villages, you have shinobi acting as a policing force to unstable nations.

    Also, it would be great if Sasuke created an international criminal court to act upon the genocide of clans and other crimes commited by village leaderships.

    If you killed a clan for your village, even if you are a kage, you will be tried and arrested for crimes against humanity.

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