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Naruto defeated DEVA in BASE MODE. Deva with some help from Robot realm defeated Kakashi and the fat guys...
Also he was able to fight Kurama in SM and Kurama when Oo at his power...
Naruto also can just about "blink" into SM no diferent then Hashirama so he CAN use it... He does not need any clones.
Anyway this topic is absurd. What if Sasuke get's something in his eye before a fight (dust or whatever) and can't use his eye abilities... What is he now? Yeah he is good but anything special? Nop...
EDIT: If Naruto would lose Kurama for some reason i asure you he is going to be on and above Sasuke's level.
Last edited by xXan; April 24, 2013 at 05:40 AM.
Well, even without Kyuubi he still has sage mode, which makes him powerful enough to take on most Akatsuki and Kage level opponents.
I have to agree though he's still pretty terrible in his unboosted base form and would probably get his ass handed to him by even most of the minor side characters for all its worth.
And he didn't exactly beat Deva Path in base mode, he just delivered the finishing strike... after Nagato had already exhausted himself. If he tried to take on Deva with just Rasengan, Clones, some unhoned Taujutsu skills and most importantly no prior intel then he would get outright murdered like pretty much anyone else.
Well, I hadn't even started refuting anything, I just answered the question what the point of subtracting Naruto's enhanced modes could be.Quote:
So far as Jiraiya, I'm not sure what you mean. We've seen the guy fighting without sage mode throughout the entire series, and clearly he does not need sage mode to perform at kage level. To him sage mode comes as a bonus, as a last resort. To Naruto, it comes as a solid requirement to be able to perform at that level. I'm also not sure what the relevance of "Sasuke, Kakashi and various other characters" is, seeing how they don't even have any enhanced modes. Their base level is in fact their only level.
I don't mind honest arguments against my position that I might have missed, but when you start picking on words like "seem" when the same can be done for your suggestion that Naruto can probably sustain sage mode longer, I might just get the feeling you're only here to prove some pre conceived opinion by any rethorical means necessary. If my position that non-enhanced Naruto is relatively weak is a point of view, that point of view consists in Naruto having to be saved on his first try against a battle worn Kakuzu, succeeding on his 2nd try, injuring his arm in the process. Much later, we see non-enhanced Naruto running away from Pain getting his ass handed to him, and even much later we see non-enhanced Naruto being like any other mediocre member of the shinobi alliance getting his ass kicked by the 3rd Raikage. The point of view of non-enhanced Naruto being quite useless, is the only point of view we've gotten.
I don't really mind all the cheaty powerups. I like the fact that he could have achieved none of it without extensive help from Minato, Kushina, Bee, grandpa toad's stick, the oil pool, and Kakashi's kagebunshin theory combined with Kyuubi's chakra reserve. It would be far more farfetched if a boy could achieve kage level in 4 years time through conventional means. Sasuke's groth for instance is far less believable. He loses cursed seal (which is basically semi sage mode), gains MS, and somehow that makes up for the loss of speed, chakra capacity and stamina? We're all supposed to forget that cursed seal used to be Sasuke's version of kyuubi shroud to make up for the tiny chakra reserve that a 16 year old inevitably has. How does gaining MS help? If anything, it should deplete his reserves even faster.
Just don't forget that non-enhanced Naruto is no different from any top tier jounin.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; April 24, 2013 at 07:05 AM.
Unhoned Taujutsu? Frog Fu man... Remember just after the Pein event when he had a fight with those dues with Katanas? Frog Fu... He is no Lee but he is good enough.
You are underestimating Naruto...
We did? Do show me. I don't remember 1 event with a Kage level dude, not 1. I would like to see who he could fight in base mode and win over or put up a fight (and i do mean a fight, not a small exchange).Quote:
Only thing that he SHOWED that would make him really top tier. Oh right i keep forgeting. Jman has ... HAIR....Quote:
No diferent then removing sharingan from Sasuke. That is his "enhanced" mode. Hashirama won over Madara because he had SM... I gues his win is not valid anymore?Quote:
You also noticed Naruto in normal mode defeating Deva but i don't see you bringing that up.Quote:
Yea non-enhanced Naruto is probably useless vs top tier people but no diferent then non-sharingan Sasuke is useless vs top tier just as well...
Oh and Naruto would get his as Kicked by Raikage? No shit really you think? Let's remove Sasuke's sharingan and put him vs that guy. How do you think he is going to do?
You know what you are doing here? You are trolling a caracter removing his abilities only to call him crep because of it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Let's also cut his arms and legs off and call him below genin level as he could also lose those....
You know i could understand you trying to build a case around non Kurama Naruto but removing his SAGE MODE that he WORKED FOR and CAN USE IN ANY FIGHT is just complete BS...
Though, Naruto in base mode was able to go taijutsu-for-taijutsu with Deva.
Kyuubi was not at full power, and Kushina saved Naruto at least once, and helped him out at least once.Quote:
Naruto can't "blink" into Sage Mode. There's no evidence he can, without showing him standing still for few panels.
Didn't he take on two Rain chuunins by himself? And match Haku speed for speed until Haku used Demonic Ice Mirrors? Naruto would have been owned by Haku if it weren't for Kyuubi.Quote:
I highly doubt it, as Sasuke was already above Naruto's level before he even got Sharingan.
The only thing Naruto had at that point (when he won in base mode) was info on Deva. Now Deva also had info on Naruto so more or less its fair.Quote:
SM did 0 work before that. SM he used just before that did exacly nothing to Deva. He tyied SM and failed. Then he was left with SM and used that smart tactic and won.
What exacly did SM or Kurama did for him to win at that point? Yes he would have been DEAD of not for Kurama before that point BUT asuming you would have trown Naruto in that fight vs Deva and he would have used said tactic from THE START he would have won.
And those dues/babe with Katana's after he saved the village.Quote:
Note i said "he was able to fight it" and how is that wrong? Did he or did he not was able to fight it?Quote:
Yes he was helped but he was able to fight it AND Kurama whent Oo at his power (as he himself said).
Also why was Kurama not at full power? I hope you are not going to give me that "half of it is inside Minato stuff"...
Raikage charging at him at full speed(the old one). Naruto is showed to close his eyes and then bam the SM sight apear. It was done damn fast. its not really a NORMAL blink(as fast as one can) but that is why i said "just about" and use the "" around blink.Quote:
Point is its fast enough for him to use in ANY fight as long as the one he is fighting is not a Raikage (young) charging at him at full speed from the start.
And Sasuke was using his sharingan. Its not like he was doing with his normal eyes. As i said remove his sharingan and see how well he does. Sasuke with no sharingan is obviously no fodder and still Jounin level BUT he is "nothing special" as i said.Quote:
Before the CS lvl 2 Naruto was above him. Remember the water thing? And Bunta thing? Those where 2 instances where Sasuke clearly fealt inferior.Quote:
Anyway that was not my point. What i wanted to say is that if he for some reason is going to lose Kurama Kishi is most defenetly going to compensate somehow to put him just above Sasuke before this ends. There is no way in hell Kishi is going to leave Naruto below Sasuke in power (main caracter and all).
Going toe to toe with Deva in a Taijutsu clash is nice and dandy, but Nagato was never really noted to be a Taijutsu monster either. I'd say in Taijutsu alone base Naruto would get his ass handed to him even by characters like Asuma.
If Nagato wasn't already panting and coughing up blood at that point then he could have simply used another Chibaku Tensei or Super ST to obliterate Naruto. But he already wasted his big shots thanks to other villagers, Sage Mode and Kyuubi.Quote:
Not to mention I'd actually argue his ST was also weakened at that point, considering what he did to the big frogs before and how his Edo-Tensei form later threw a swath of destruction throughout the forest.
Last edited by LnDRash; April 24, 2013 at 08:34 AM.
Let's zone in in the central thesis then.
I guess it's a valid misconception because it would not be a misconception in most cases. As a general rule it seems, anyone downplaying a characters achievements, is secretly and for no good reason a fanboy and simply enjoys dismissing victories as invalid. In this instance though, you've been drawing conclusions too fast without careful reading and you ended up arguing against something you created on your own. Who said anything about wins not being valid? Who said anything about Sasuke being more legitimately powerful when compared to Naruto? What made you think that subtracting Sasuke's Sharingan would somehow bother me as if I'm secretly trying to make the case for Sasuke fanboyism here? I think I've been very clear that Naruto's progress is much more believable than Sasuke's, exactly because his powerups have been so conditional upon help from others and various limitations.Quote:
You're just creating a giant straw person based off of people you've met earlier on this forum. Perhaps legitimately because there seem to be a lot of fanboys around, I'm just not one of them.
Now, back to the real points. If you don't think Jiraiya has shown to be at kage level by scaring off Itachi and Kisame with a frog jutsu summoned at base level and engaging in a major battle with Manda, Oro (granted, Oro didn't have many jutsu) and pill-drugged Kabuto, I just can't help it. Seemed rather evident to me. Even if it wasn't, I would be happy to accept base stat Jiraiya as a weakling if necessary. It's not integral to the point I'm trying to make here.
On to Sasuke. I don't really like discussing the dude as his progress is the most illegitimately insane one in the entire series. Still for argument's sake, I wouldn't count MS as an enhanced mode because it doesn't supply him with more chakra, stamina, or speed, and it does not have a time limit.
Naruto beating Deva is nice. Don't forget about the intel gathered by Kakashi though. Without it, base stat Naruto would have ended up like Kakashi, wouldn't he? I dare you to say he wouldn't. Also, would you count Deva to be a solid kage level character on its own? I'd say he's 1/6th of such a character, 5/6th of which was beaten by sage mode. Together with the intel and the fact that Nagato had already spent quite some energy running around the village before Naruto even showed up and having to fight Kyuubi in the meanwhile, I'm in a safe position to claim that someone at Jounin level could have barely beaten Deva at that point, which is exactly what Naruto did.
For the record, I don't care about downplaying any of Naruto's victories (his achievements on the other hand, different story), in fact if I am to be classified as a fanboy, I'd definitely be on Naruto's side. The thing that struck me at this point in the manga was the realisation that non-enhanced Naruto is still the guy who needs 2 tries against tired Kakuzu, and being close to useless against the 3rd Raikage. If that doesn't strike you as weird or remotely interesting, you're not even the target audience and also, there's nothing for you to disagree with here, other than not finding it interesting.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; April 24, 2013 at 08:57 AM.
Against Deva? It allowed Naruto to get an edge over Deva with taijutsu. In base mode, he was on the defensive until Fukasaku summoned his clone.
Sage Mode allowed him to take out Animal Realm, Human Realm, Asura Realm, Hungry Ghost Realm, and possibly Naraku Realm (forgot). Kyuubi allowed Naruto to break out of the stakes that Deva trapped him in and force Pain to use tons of chakra to subdue the Kyuubi. Frogs provided distraction and allowed Naruto to take out ANimal Realm. Hinata's "death" forced Naruto to go Kyuubi Mode.Quote:
no, Naruto would have likely lost because when he fought Deva, Nagato was already low enough on chakra. If Nagato had normal amount of chakra, I doubt Naruto could have escaped Chibaku Tensei.
Naruto's had tons of advantages over Pain that Pain did not have over Naruto, or anyone had over Pain. That's the main reason why he won. Even if it was just him vs. Deva, he'd have likely lost because of Deva's power.
Yep. Another reason why Naruto's base mode is underrated - he basically was on par with them and even caught Karui's sword with his bare hands!Quote:
He was not able to fight it without help. Bee caught the bijuu bomb from Kyuubi at the start, Kushina warded away Kyuubi's evil will, and her chain pulled Kyuubi down when Naruto was attacking it. If he fought on his own, he'd have probably lost.Quote:
So? I don't care if Kyuubi was amazed. Fact is, Naruto still won because he had help, even though he showed one hell of a power. And as you said, Kyuubi was amazed at Naruto's power, not hte fact that he beat the Kyuubi, who wasn't at the power it had before Minato used Shiki Fuuin.
Because Minato sealed half of it away, and there's no reason to believe it's at full size or had full power? Madara was around the same height as Kyuubi's eye, but Naruto was longer htan the Kyuubi's eye. I assume Naruto and Madara are of same or similar size. Not to mention, Madara looked tiny on Kyuubi's head while Naruto didn't look as tiny next to the Kyuubi.Quote:
After he asked Bee how Raikage hurt himself? That's proving my point, since Naruto was still while talking to Bee. And it wasn't as fast as you claim.Quote:
Not fast enough without distractions, from what we've seen. He hasn't been able to get into Sage Mode while blinking, he was still before he even blinked.Quote:
Sasuke didn't even use Sharingan until well after Naruto joined the fight with Haku. He was fighting the Rain chuunin and Haku evenly WITHOUT SHaringan, and even when Haku used Ice Mirrors, he was doing well. BEFORE Sharingan.Quote:
Sasuke is a lot more special than Naruto, and he's proven it. You can't claim Naruto is better when the manga has shown Sasuke constantly be better, with or wihtout Sharingan. That's like saying Naruto sucks or is worse than Kiba.
Yeah, Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra. Without the Kyuubi, Naruto wouldn't have even stood a chance against normal Sharingan Sasuke or even be able to summon Bunta. Naruto vs. no SHaringan Sasuke would be even, probably, or Sasuke being superior. Hell, Sasuke was able to take out multiple shadow clones soon after Tsunade healed him.Quote:
Naruto isn't meant to be above Sasuke, he's meant to be weaker so when Naruto wins, he won because of his guts, determination, and refusal to give up. It'd be a lot like his fight wiht Neji.
I don't see any way Kishi can compensate for Naruto losing the Kyuubi without making Sasuke lose his EMS.
How strong is Naruto? Well, as strong as the maker makes him out to be. In terms of demonstrating power & skill, Kishi seemed to has lost his touch.
As for how strong he is without Kurama or Sage Mode, isn't that obvious? A Kage lvl ninja (Highest lvl a ninja can get).
his taijutsu is subpar
his jutsu arsenal is garbage
his brain power and strategies haven't evolved
He's always getting saved
naruto without sage mode and kurama is a chunnin AT BEST. and im being nice when i say that. put him against any nin without sage or kyuubi mode and he'll probably lose, i dont even think he could take on kiba without his power boosts. how would he stop the giant wolf? with a rasengan? pfft please, naruto is mediocre, his best friend is plot no jutsu
What would he do against any of the current five Kage?
Gaara would squash him and all of his clones with a sand avalanche while he can't even inflict damage with his Rasengan.
Raikage would just bash his head off before he can even blink and he's once again unable to deal any damage.
Mei would obliterate him and all his clones at once with her large scale and ranged elemental techs even Madara had trouble avoiding.
Oonoki atomizes him along with the whole battlefield while Naruto can't even reach him.
Tsunade bruteforces her way to him with Byakugō and kills him with a single unblockable punch or messes up his nervous system with a single touch, leaving him jerking around on the floor.
Yes, with sage mode he's certainly Kage level or beyond... but without..? C'mon I'd say he's a Tokubetsu Jōnin at best.
1. the only reason he mastered sage mode so quick was becuase he had the ''perfect dna'' for it; plot no jutsu at its best. jiraya trained for like 50 years and his was incomplete; naruto trains for like a week and gets it ;l plot no jutsu, no skill
2. he didnt create the idea for the jutsu the fourth did and honestly all he did was add an extra had, i thought itd be more exciting than that.... oh and ont forget he still cant do a one handed rasengan :l naruto's lame, bruh
2. All he did? Minato COULDN'T add an element to Rasengan. That was his maximum. Naruto, as Kakashi said it, was the only one to take the Rasengan to the next level. I couldn't care less for the way he executes it. The power is still the same. I can't get over how idiotic arguments you guys give for downplaying his strength.