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Thread: How strong is Naruto?

  1. #631
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    According to the anime, his eyes when using Rasen Shuriken were blue. I sure as hell trust them more than you since they have a contact with the author. Why on earth would they think to themselves " Hey! He's using the Kyuubi chakra, let's color them blue instead of the usual red just for the lulz."
    Once again, I don't trust the anime. Use the manga, not anime, anime takes liberties. If I recall, they made rasengan blue when it was supposed to be yellow, so yeah. And from what I've heard about Pain vs. Naruto, anime is even less legit, so it won't work as proof.

    They don't have as much of a contact with the author, from the looks of it. Otherwise I doubt Kishi would have let Deva be hammered like a nail. And yes, they would do it for the lulz or whatnot - it's their own interpretation on manga, not what's actual.

    Quote Quote:
    There is only one reason and that's the slits. And given the fact that he used the Kyuubi's chakra without the slits several time as well as having slits without the Kyuubi's chakra, then you're wrong. Also, who's to say he can't summon Bunta without the Kyuubi chakra ? Even though Naruto said "The results of my training finally appeared." Also, everytime he uses the Kyuubi's chakra, the cat whiskers around his face become jagged and much more jagged and rough.
    When did he use Kyuubi's chakra without slits? Or slits without Kyuubi's chakra? All we're doing is assuming on teh latter. But how does Naruto's slit eyes being blue mean he's not using Kyuubi's chakra?

    Naruto himself is to say that. If he could summon Bunta, he'd have done so against Orochimaru but instead, Kichi came out... again. Naruto couldn't even summon a bigger frog. I don't care waht Naruto says, I care what he shows. His classmates said he was an idiot, but Naruto showed he was not an idiot.

    Depends on how much chakra he gets. Whenever Naruto gets chakra shroud, the whiskers become more prominent. But answer this: why would he get slits in his eyes if he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra? That's like Naruto getting Sage eyes without using Sage Mode....


    Until proven otherwise, Naruto can't summon a boss toad on his own. At best, he could summon Kichi, but he has not shown the ability to summon boss toads without using Kyuubi's chakra.


    Quote Quote:
    Here is another link. They show that slits aren't necessary for using the Kyuubi's chakra.
    They also show that Naruto had Kyuubi shroud. They also don't show that Naruto's eyes randomly looks like slits whenever he's in a fight without needing Kyuubi's chakra.

    Quote Quote:
    All you're saying is slits, slits SLITS. Does this argument work any better than mines ? Why do you act like you have concrete proof ? You say that he only has slits when he uses the Kyuubi's power, that's the only thing you have. I showed you him using it without the slits. I proved that every time he had slits when using Kyuubi's chakra his cat whiskers become jagged. And I proved that everytime he uses it we get a hint that he did (someone speaking, him speaking, or actually seeing it). And told you that the anime depicted them as blue. Your one small argument which doesn't have a backbone to it, is better than these ? And one more thing, you're telling me he used the Kyuubi's chakra to summon Bunta, without him asking for it, or us seeing it. So then, WHY THE HELL would he ask for it again and begs him to give him just a little bit ? Why the hell did we see him asking for it now but not before ? You're argument is completely illogical. You haven't even shown one proof that he used it, while I keep bringing more and more.
    But you didn't show me that he randomly gets slits without needing Kyuubi's chakra. All you showed/are showing is that he doesn't always get slits when he uses Kyuubi's chakra. Does not disprove me in any way. And we don't need a hint when his eyes show it. Why else would Kishi show his eyes turnign into slits? Using anime has no merits other than in anime-only discussion because they're not always canon.

    What if Kyuubi gave Naruto enough chakra without him asking for it to summon Bunta? But then Naruto needed chakra again and had to ask the Kyuubi this time? Kyuubi has given Naruto chakra before without permission.

    how is my argument illogical? Because you don't agree with it and want to believe that Naruto used his own chakra, which he admitted he barely had any? All you proved was that Naruto's eyes can stay normal when he uses Kyuubi's chakra, but you haven't proven that his eyes can go slits without using Kyuubi's chakra. Why the hell would his eyes go slits randomly in a fight if he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra?

    And considering teh fact that Naruto couldn't summon Bunta when he and Jiraiya confronted Orochimaru and Kabuto, it's even harder to believe that he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra to summon Bunta against Gaara. Before you say Jiraiya couldn't either, he was drugged while Naruto was healthy, at worst little exhausted due to training. Now, if he was able to summon Bunta or a bigger frog than Kichi, THEN maybe I would consider him being able to summon Bunta on his own. Naruto has shown throughout the manga that he's unable to summon without Kyuubi's chakra.



    Quote Quote:
    You're absolutely wrong
    If that's what you want to believe.



    Quote Quote:
    It's his version of Chakra shroud. I'ts definitely a guard. Seeing that even in a weaker version than his mini form, he managed to take several attacks from Sasuke with no problems.

    Great. I totally didn't include that in my reply.
    You didn't.



    Quote Quote:
    Except that the fight he saw was 90% percent Naruto's power.

    Yes it can.
    Debatable, but at least 5% if not 10-20 was Kyuubi's power as well.

    NOt really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    On another note, after having seen how Gaara fought against Sasuke during the Five Kage Summit Arc, I have to say that Gaara would probably defeat SM Naruto regardless of the location. Gaara is an awful match-up for Naruto.
    I'm not sure if that's true, considering Sage Mode Naruto has both speed and strength to deal with Gaara. Not to mention, he also has the ability fight with taijutsu adn injure without actually touching, like he did to Hungry Ghost. If anything, Sage Mode Naruto is the worst kind of matchup for Gaara.


    Though now, I wanna see what happens when you mix FRS with sand. Sandstorm no jutsu?
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  2. #632
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I'm not sure if that's true, considering Sage Mode Naruto has both speed and strength to deal with Gaara. Not to mention, he also has the ability fight with taijutsu adn injure without actually touching, like he did to Hungry Ghost. If anything, Sage Mode Naruto is the worst kind of matchup for Gaara.
    Not at all. SM is not all that fast. Let's also not pretend like the current Gaara is even remotely close to that gennin Gaara who fought Lee and Sasuke. He can just float around, turn the battlefield into a desert and crush Naruto at ease. No amount of speed is going to save him, if he has to stand on it to begin with. This is not to mention that Naruto actually has to into sage mode in the first place, and base Naruto is not even fast enough to escape the sand from just the gourd.

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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    I don't think Naruto's SM speed would actually be an issue. Without that being an issue, his Frog-Kata isn't dangerous either.

  4. #634
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Not at all. SM is not all that fast. Let's also not pretend like the current Gaara is even remotely close to that gennin Gaara who fought Lee and Sasuke. He can just float around, turn the battlefield into a desert and crush Naruto at ease. No amount of speed is going to save him, if he has to stand on it to begin with. This is not to mention that Naruto actually has to into sage mode in the first place, and base Naruto is not even fast enough to escape the sand from just the gourd.
    Didn't he manage to rasengan Asura out of nowhere despite being far away? I don't think Gaara can turn the battlefield into a desert at his whim, he actually has to make it. But yeah, if Naruto doesn't enter the fight in Sage Mode, then I don't think he has a chance.


    Frog-kata doesn't need speed to be dangerous, just close proximity.
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  5. #635
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Didn't he manage to rasengan Asura out of nowhere despite being far away? I don't think Gaara can turn the battlefield into a desert at his whim, he actually has to make it. But yeah, if Naruto doesn't enter the fight in Sage Mode, then I don't think he has a chance.


    Frog-kata doesn't need speed to be dangerous, just close proximity.
    No. Unconnected frames are not a good source for speed because you have absolutely no reference point. Naruto can literally be like 2 feet away and just out of panel, and etc. SM Naruto has never put pressure on anyone with its speed or even impressed anybody with it. Gaara just clapped his hands and created this and that was pre-time skip. Frog-kata needs to be right up there in melee range. Let's not pretend like it extends the range of his attack in any significant way. Hell, if Naruto can get close enough for Frog Katas, he might as well just use rasengan. Naruto has no chance to even get close to Gaara.
    Last edited by chilibun; May 11, 2013 at 08:09 PM.

  6. #636
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    The fact that none of the Paths saw Naruto coming despite him being behind Tsunade, in front of six pairs of Rinnegan, says a lot though.

    It is significant though. Even if he and Raikage are at same speed, if Naruto is close to Raikage then he can use frog kata to deal some damage to Raikage. Natural Energy could do a better job of causing damage than Naruto's own taijutsu.
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  7. #637
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    The fact that none of the Paths saw Naruto coming despite him being behind Tsunade, in front of six pairs of Rinnegan, says a lot though.

    It is significant though. Even if he and Raikage are at same speed, if Naruto is close to Raikage then he can use frog kata to deal some damage to Raikage. Natural Energy could do a better job of causing damage than Naruto's own taijutsu.
    Nah. Pein managed to block SM Jiraiya's punch effortlessly by watching him with their shared vision. This didn't happen with Naruto because while all the Pein's were looking at Tsunade, Naruto jumped into the air ABOVE where they were looking.

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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Jiraiya wasn't bothering to be fast though. It's weird if the Paths didn't notice any kind of movement from Naruto even if he was a small speck at that distance....
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  9. #639
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The fact that none of the Paths saw Naruto coming despite him being behind Tsunade, in front of six pairs of Rinnegan, says a lot though.

    It is significant though. Even if he and Raikage are at same speed, if Naruto is close to Raikage then he can use frog kata to deal some damage to Raikage. Natural Energy could do a better job of causing damage than Naruto's own taijutsu.
    That's because all 6 pains were looking at Tsunada and Naruto came in from above. The point I'm making is that saves always make a character faster than he is because that character is left out of the frame until the very last second for dramatic effect. Heck, even Chouji looked like the flash when he saved Shikimaru from Gedo's foot.

    I don't know why Raikage was brought into this since we were talking about Gaara, but yes Frog Kata will hit the Raikage even if he dodges it, but nothing suggest Frog Kata's are any more damaging than a regular SM punch, in which case, Raikage can tank it all day long. I'm assuming this is the 3rd Raikage we are talking about because Ee is much faster than both his father and SM Naruto. Ee will straight up chop Naruto's head off if he is going full speed. Come to think of it, the 3rd Raikage is so physically powerful that he wouldn't even bother dodging. He'd headbutt Naruto's fist and break your hand. So, yea, frog kata isn't going to be effective against either Raikages.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Jiraiya wasn't bothering to be fast though. It's weird if the Paths didn't notice any kind of movement from Naruto even if he was a small speck at that distance....
    Er... so Jiraiya was deliberately going slow? Fact is Pein didn't have any trouble keeping up with SM Jiraiya's speed or else he wouldn't have been skewered by the black rods. Pein was fully capable of dodging and blocking SM Jiraiya and SM Naruto's attacks, though they were no aware of Frog Kata's extension.
    Last edited by chilibun; May 11, 2013 at 09:26 PM.

  10. #640
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    Jiraiya wasn't bothering to be fast though. It's weird if the Paths didn't notice any kind of movement from Naruto even if he was a small speck at that distance....
    What reason is there to believe that Jiraiya wasn't trying to be fast? He powered up to a mode that enhances his speed and strength. That gives me the idea that he well... wanted to either overpower Pein, or outpace Pein.

  11. #641
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Pain didn't have the edge on Sage Mode Naruto if I recall, not until Deva's power came back into play.

    Fourth Raikage was brought in because of his speed. Odd thing is though that frog kata punch was enough to take Hungry Ghost out until he was healed by Naraku Path's power. I'm guessing frog kata is more like Gentle Fist? Though I'm really basing that on the effect of Sage Mode Naruto's slap when he was tryin to get the chakra rod out of the monkey bijuu (I refuse to call him Son or any bijuu by their names, because seriously, Kurama? LAME.).

    Dunno, probably because he couldn't be fast without having to compensate for something? He didn't show increased speed until his appearance changed and he tried to rasengan Hungry Ghost. With the speed he showed in doin that, one would assume he can be pretty fast. Especially when he kicked Animal Realm's eyes out of nowhere when it attacked him.
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  12. #642
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member chilibun's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Pain didn't have the edge on Sage Mode Naruto if I recall, not until Deva's power came back into play.

    Fourth Raikage was brought in because of his speed. Odd thing is though that frog kata punch was enough to take Hungry Ghost out until he was healed by Naraku Path's power. I'm guessing frog kata is more like Gentle Fist? Though I'm really basing that on the effect of Sage Mode Naruto's slap when he was tryin to get the chakra rod out of the monkey bijuu (I refuse to call him Son or any bijuu by their names, because seriously, Kurama? LAME.).

    Dunno, probably because he couldn't be fast without having to compensate for something? He didn't show increased speed until his appearance changed and he tried to rasengan Hungry Ghost. With the speed he showed in doin that, one would assume he can be pretty fast. Especially when he kicked Animal Realm's eyes out of nowhere when it attacked him.
    Nobody said Pain had an edge on Naruto. Me and ninjabot are merely saying SM Naruto/Jiraiya never displayed speed that the Pain's couldn't keep up with.

    Ee is heads and shoulders above SM Naruto in speed. Pointless to even compare the two. Frog Kata destroyed Fat Pain because Pain bodies were never shown to be durable to begin with. Even the most durable one Asura (assuming he is because of being an armored robot and all) has been destroyed rasengans, raikiris, and Chouji Big Fist. Even little Konohamuru took one out. And NO, Frog Kata has never been said or implied that it can damage anything like Jyuuken. All it did against the rods is smacked it hard enough to physically knock it out like smacking the back of a bottle. Its just a matter or transferring momentum and energy like the Newton's cradle.

    Jiraiya kicked off the wall for one direct strike. That isn't the speed he can generally move in or use. And even then, Pain had no problem reacting to it. This is like giving Sasuke or Kakashi like 20 meters to prepare a linear chidori stab, which is faster than they typically move in general battle. I think Jiraiya was mostly stationary when he kicked Animal Realm in the face, and even then Animal realm kinda just lunged at him like an idiot. Plus its Animal Realm! Who even cares. All he does is summon shit and try to look pretty.
    Last edited by chilibun; May 12, 2013 at 12:55 AM.

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  14. #643
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Quote Originally Posted by chilibun View Post
    Nobody said Pain had an edge on Naruto. Me and ninjabot are merely saying SM Naruto/Jiraiya never displayed speed that the Pain's couldn't keep up with.

    Ee is heads and shoulders above SM Naruto in speed. Pointless to even compare the two. Frog Kata destroyed Fat Pain because Pain bodies were never shown to be durable to begin with. Even the most durable one Asura (assuming he is because of being an armored robot and all) has been destroyed rasengans, raikiris, and Chouji Big Fist. Even little Konohamuru took one out. And NO, Frog Kata has never been said or implied that it can damage anything like Jyuuken. All it did against the rods is smacked it hard enough to physically knock it out like smacking the back of a bottle. Its just a matter or transferring momentum and energy like the Newton's cradle.

    Jiraiya kicked off the wall for one direct strike. That isn't the speed he can generally move in or use. And even then, Pain had no problem reacting to it. This is like giving Sasuke or Kakashi like 20 meters to prepare a linear chidori stab, which is faster than they typically move in general battle. I think Jiraiya was mostly stationary when he kicked Animal Realm in the face, and even then Animal realm kinda just lunged at him like an idiot. Plus its Animal Realm! Who even cares. All he does is summon shit and try to look pretty.
    I agree wholeheartedly. Jiraiya's performance against Pein's 3 paths was largely poor. He only faced a single offensive body, animal path. The other two were defensive bodies, with no speed or Taijutsu feats to be very honest. Deva takes up the majority of Nagato's power, as it slows down the recovery speed of the paths exponentially if Almighty Push is used, and they are literally shut down if he decides to use CT.

    And yet, the dude was literally on ropes. The second Asura appeared, he was unceremoniously hacked. He was well out of his league here. To get to the point, it's only speculation to believe that Naruto's SM is tiers better than Jiraiya's in regards to speed. When he didn't accomplish anything better even with the intel.

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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    Jiraiya's performance wasn't poor. Yes, he was only fighting three Paths of which two were defensive Paths, but that was the problem. Since he was facing the defensive ones, it was hard for him to get a hit in. The Paths, on the other hand, couldn't really get a hit in on Jiraiya either. Their fight would certainly have reached a stalemate had it not been for the two Frogs and their genjutsu. Naruto would probably not have done any better given the same circumstances.

    Also, he was mainly defeated because he let his guard down and had his arm cut off. Even then, though, he could have gotten away if he wanted to. It is also worth to note that Jiraiya wasn't fully focused on the fight. He was surprised by many things, such as seeing his former pupils alive and that there were a handful of people with Rinnegan. If you re-read the fight, you'll see that he was focused on how that was possible during the majority of the fight.

    I am absolutely certain that Jiraiya would've done better than Naruto if the situation had been reversed.

  16. #645
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: How strong is Naruto?

    I agree his performance wasn't poor. But I still maintain the belief that he showed no feats of speed that would be a genuine threat to any of the current upper echelon of ninja. No Sasuke or Naruto or Raikage or Bee or Madara or even illness stricken Itachi.

    And I still consider Naruto and Jiraiya's Sage Mode boosts equal thanks to seeing nothing to imply a difference.

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