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Thread: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

  1. #16
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member DraMas26's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Well it's as Urahara said Masaki cannot go back to how she was:

    http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v58/c535/9.html

    If they only counteracted the Hollow then she would be able to remain a Quincy but that shouldn't be the case according to what Urahara said.

    IMO when the Hollow and Quincy souls (or any other souls for that matter) blend together they permanently change. It's like trying to twist the wrong key into a door lock. It'll change and then probably won't even be able to work in the right door lock from then on.

    Since the blending makes her soul different they need an opposite for her new different soul. Basically after Hollowfication begins, your soul can never be the same again. We've seen this happen before with the Vizards. They can never go back to being regular Shinigami because they underwent Hollowfication which is a life changing experience. Same with Masaki. She either becomes a Quincy - Hollow hybrid via the Hogyouku or a regular human. Since Urahara isn't interested in that kind of hybrid he'll opt to have her turned into a regular human.

  2. #17
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    To me the more interesting point about this is that it does seem like aizen and urahara took the wrong approach with hybridization. Hollowification is a cool idea which makes sense however in light of the new developments it does seem like it is not a practical idea.

    A shinigami or a human can be hollowified however the balance of the victim's soul will succumb to soul suicide unless there is a perfect balance with every soul there. Its the reason for which vizards were given human/quincy vaccines and the reason for which masaki's hollowification has to be stopped by a shinigami/human hybrid. But what happens if you make a hybrid between souls which are at opposite ends rather than souls that are at no end of the other? In this particular case a hybrid that would make sense and would be viable without much complication is the quincy/shinigami hybrid and the human/hollow hybrid. Perhaps this particular potential hybrids would not have the soul suicide issue as it would be made out of opposite souls that can balance each other to begin with. Any thoughts?

  3. #18
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Newkerzy's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta42 View Post
    Sadly, this is the only part I can give my answer to. What Urahara did for Visoreds was stopping the soul suicide, but they still needed to learn how to control their inner Hollow afterwards. Ichigo didn't receive any help from Urahara because he is already a Soul Reaper/Quincy/Human/Hollow hybrid. So it appears Urahara was never able to solve the problem of controlling the inner Hollow.

    But if Urahara can't help Masaki there... maybe the Visoreds will? After all, early in this mini-arc Aizen was talking about using his experiments to lure them out. Maybe they'll play their own part here, as well. Might also explain how Shinji knew who Ichigo was.
    Ah, I see. I was confused at the whole thing, but I'm glad you've helped clear it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    To me the more interesting point about this is that it does seem like aizen and urahara took the wrong approach with hybridization. Hollowification is a cool idea which makes sense however in light of the new developments it does seem like it is not a practical idea.

    A shinigami or a human can be hollowified however the balance of the victim's soul will succumb to soul suicide unless there is a perfect balance with every soul there. Its the reason for which vizards were given human/quincy vaccines and the reason for which masaki's hollowification has to be stopped by a shinigami/human hybrid. But what happens if you make a hybrid between souls which are at opposite ends rather than souls that are at no end of the other? In this particular case a hybrid that would make sense and would be viable without much complication is the quincy/shinigami hybrid and the human/hollow hybrid. Perhaps this particular potential hybrids would not have the soul suicide issue as it would be made out of opposite souls that can balance each other to begin with. Any thoughts?
    Bolded: In other words, the Fullbringers are the "perfect" hybrid, so to speak?? as it is derived from human/hollow. I wonder if Hikifune will do anything with Chad?? the Fullbringers' application of their abilities seem to be the closest to what she once researched. I'd love it if she could give Chad a power-up.

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  4. #19
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    I wasn't talking about perfect hybrids or anything of the sort. My point was about making a hybrid which would naturally be more stable and not susceptible to soul suicide. As the manga has shown so far, any other kind of hybrid has the inconvenience of having to be balanced out with two other types of powers/souls. If anything it did not seem like fullbring is that strong a power to be honest. We saw a number of fullbrings however none of them seemed to actually have a power that could match bankai or volstandig. Well, ginjo did but only because he had a bankai like fullbring.

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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I wasn't talking about perfect hybrids or anything of the sort. My point was about making a hybrid which would naturally be more stable and not susceptible to soul suicide. As the manga has shown so far, any other kind of hybrid has the inconvenience of having to be balanced out with two other types of powers/souls. If anything it did not seem like fullbring is that strong a power to be honest. We saw a number of fullbrings however none of them seemed to actually have a power that could match bankai or volstandig. Well, ginjo did but only because he had a bankai like fullbring.
    Ginjo was a substitute shinigami - it seems he was given power similar to that of a shinigami in the same way Ichigo was (just that he didn't suck up all of it like Ichigo). That could explain his uniqueness.

    Apart from that, this theory really works with FBers. Makes me wonder about the other type of hybrid, shinigami/quincy. Maybe VR tried to do something similar, seeing as they use "swords" sometimes and the overall difference from the traditional quincies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromamura View Post
    Meh can't have Bleach without fan raging, makes it fun.

  6. #21
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Newkerzy's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    I wasn't talking about perfect hybrids or anything of the sort. My point was about making a hybrid which would naturally be more stable and not susceptible to soul suicide. As the manga has shown so far, any other kind of hybrid has the inconvenience of having to be balanced out with two other types of powers/souls. If anything it did not seem like fullbring is that strong a power to be honest. We saw a number of fullbrings however none of them seemed to actually have a power that could match bankai or volstandig. Well, ginjo did but only because he had a bankai like fullbring.
    That was kind of what I meant. I guess you could say that Fullbringers are the most ideal hybrids. I honestly hope that there's more potential to be uncovered with Fullbring. I would think that Kirio would be that someone who can figure out how to maximize a Fullbringer's potential.

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  7. #22
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Well, they would be easier to make (heck, fullbringers appear completely naturally although their powers do seem weak in comparison) however that is not the same as saying they would be better. The vizards, arrancar, ichigo.... they have all 4 types of souls within them, they have a bit of everything so to speak.

    I do wonder what the "human" aspect brings into the equation in regards to power though. Fullbringers seem to have hollow and human in them however their powers themselves are based mostly on hollow. What would be human powers? Or perhaps the reason fullbringers don't seem to be such a huge deal is that they are human/hollow hybrids and the human half does not bring anything in to the equation? In turn other hybrids would have 2 halves which are very efficient at combat.

  8. #23
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    A shinigami or a human can be hollowified however the balance of the victim's soul will succumb to soul suicide unless there is a perfect balance with every soul there. Its the reason for which vizards were given human/quincy vaccines and the reason for which masaki's hollowification has to be stopped by a shinigami/human hybrid. But what happens if you make a hybrid between souls which are at opposite ends rather than souls that are at no end of the other? In this particular case a hybrid that would make sense and would be viable without much complication is the quincy/shinigami hybrid and the human/hollow hybrid. Perhaps this particular potential hybrids would not have the soul suicide issue as it would be made out of opposite souls that can balance each other to begin with. Any thoughts?
    Well, the point of hollowfication seems to be to combine the potential powers of the two souls and merge them together to obtain an extraordinary amount of power. A human/hollow hybrid would most likely be stable (based on Urahara's reasoning) but it wouldn't make the Hollow that much stronger seeing as Humans are, by comparison, a whole lot weaker.

    A Quincy/Shinigami hybrid, on the other hand, seems like the most logical conclusion. It would certainly lead to a good (if not great) power-boost and wouldn't involve the risk of soul suicide. However, I think the issue here is obtaining a Quincy soul. Although Aizen sometimes seems like an omniscent character, it seemed to me like Masaki was the first Quincy he had seen, or at the very least, the first Quincy he had seen in a long while. It is thus possible that Aizen did not know where to get his hands on Quincies to experiment on. Hollows, in contrast, are abundant.

  9. #24
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member kkck's Avatar
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Well, humans at large don't seem to have any power to speak of. Most of them do not have reiatsu at all.... I wonder how many of the humans we have seen with reiatsu are not actually fullbringers. Chad is a confirmed fullbringer so far. Orihime is ambiguous and her ability does have important difference from a fullbringer, the main being that her object is more like a zampakuto than a fullbring. Even now she has not actually shown that light which appears when fullbring is used. Keigo, tatsuki and co are spiritually aware but the manga has not confirmed they have any sort of power just yet. Kanonji is spiritually aware although he has not been confirmed to be anything. Of course, if humans can indeed do anything then perhaps the implication would be that "human" powers would be distinctly different from quincy and fullbringer powers.


    In this particular case the question would be whether aizen not going for the quincy/shinigami hydrid was either an oversight or pragmatic thing. Did he for whatever reason choose a hollow over quincy or did he just not consider the possibility. Now, hollows are indeed more numerous than quincy at any point however if he had truly wanted a shinigami/quincy hydrid I don't think he would have had an issue with gathering quincy souls even a couple of decades ago. Remember when mayuri fought uryu? The guy revealed he had experimented over decades with thousands of quincy.... If mayuri managed to get that many souls in the past then I don't see why aizen would have had trouble. More so, aizen was already a captain level shinigami 112 years ago during TBPA. The odds of him not having been 100 years ago as a powerful shinigami are rather low IMO. Aizen could have easily even taken part in the war.

    Now, if aizen thought hollows would be more convenient then the issue is different. Its interesting to think that aizen could have had either one and for whatever reason thought a hollow/shinigami hybrid would be more practical than a quincy/shinigami hybrid. Perhaps he thought that hollows were more powerful? Hollows generally seem to have physically more powerful bodies than either quincy or shinigami (being actual beasts or something) so perhaps that is what made him choose that particular way...

  10. #25
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    Re: So, the science in Bleach just reached a new point...

    Quote Originally Posted by kkck View Post
    In this particular case the question would be whether aizen not going for the quincy/shinigami hydrid was either an oversight or pragmatic thing. Did he for whatever reason choose a hollow over quincy or did he just not consider the possibility. Now, hollows are indeed more numerous than quincy at any point however if he had truly wanted a shinigami/quincy hydrid I don't think he would have had an issue with gathering quincy souls even a couple of decades ago. Remember when mayuri fought uryu? The guy revealed he had experimented over decades with thousands of quincy.... If mayuri managed to get that many souls in the past then I don't see why aizen would have had trouble. More so, aizen was already a captain level shinigami 112 years ago during TBPA. The odds of him not having been 100 years ago as a powerful shinigami are rather low IMO. Aizen could have easily even taken part in the war.

    Now, if aizen thought hollows would be more convenient then the issue is different. Its interesting to think that aizen could have had either one and for whatever reason thought a hollow/shinigami hybrid would be more practical than a quincy/shinigami hybrid. Perhaps he thought that hollows were more powerful? Hollows generally seem to have physically more powerful bodies than either quincy or shinigami (being actual beasts or something) so perhaps that is what made him choose that particular way...
    True. A possible motive for choosing hollows over quincies could've been the fact that he had always planned on being in control of the hybrid army. It would without a doubt be a lot harder for Aizen to make the Quincies obedient to him compared to the Hollows. Perhaps Yhwach and the Vandenreich had a role to play in that? It seemed like Yhwach knew a lot about Aizen and the opposite could perhaps also be true. It wouldn't be strange that Aizen would've chosen to avoid a conflict with them.

    Also, Aizen would've had to go to the Human World to try and recruit Quincies. It would've been far riskier than going to Hueco Mundo given how much SS seems to monitor the Human World.

    On another note, based on Urahara's explanation, it seems likely that the original soul subdues the 'added' soul and thus, becomes more dominant. In other words, if you add a Hollow soul to a Shinigami soul, you get a Vizard, but if you add a Shinigami soul to a Hollow soul, you'd get an Arrancar instead.

    As for Orihime, her powers are still a mystery. The fact that they stem from her hairpins (her most precious item) would suggest that it's Fullbring. But on the other hand, her 'powers' are very much alive, which seems Zanpaktou-like.

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