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And what did healing do for Renji? I don't really remember. He withstood light punch from Kirinji, who underestimated his healing rate and thought he'd pass out. He beat Asauchi, about we know nothing about. Only thing we know is that Shinigami can beat them, Ichigo can't. No formidable feat from him so far. If I forgot something, please show me what did healing do for a guy like Renji, I'm all ears!
And did I say anything about training being efficient? You should use words, which meaning you know. I said, that all that build-up would be wasted. It's like when post-Dangai Ichigo would have been one-shotted by Aizen, and his Mugetsu would have been swept away like a fly. All that hype built around Kenpachi, that he is KENPACHI, his limiter being lifted, getting Shikai and Bankai that are what makes low-seated officer a captain, would be meaningless.
Shikai and Bankai are huge boost in power. Bankai can make person 5-10 times stronger. Shikai makes you considerably stronger too, as we have seen in Ichigo's case. Kenpachi will be 10x stronger by getting Bankai, few times stronger by lifting limiter, but still would be equal to Byakuya? All Byakuya can do is boost his speed or change his ability. And if Byakuya comes back from RP being Kenpachi's equal, IMO, it'd mean, that Kenpachi after lifting his limiter was equal to non-Shikai Byakuya, if his bankai was as strong as Byakuya's bankai and his reiatsu was as strong, and overally he'd be as strong. Kenpachi is living anti-SR machine.
http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/520/12 – Renji getting punched
http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/520/9 - Ichigo getting punched
On this page (http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/519/16
) Kirinji (or w/e) claims the healed will be healthier than before, a good start.
Also to continue on why I think Byakuya will become a lot stronger, probably on par with Kenpachi is the food ceremony:
So here we have another Royal guard saying that the next training will be so gruesome that one might die without eating this specially prepared food, training with preparations “in a scale worthy of the king of souls”.
Why would this then not extend to all the training? Wouldn’t make any sense if it didn’t, clearly this training is beyond anything they have experienced in Soul Society and with a talented Shinigami like Byakuya it could very well be so that he would benefit greatly from this.
This and their prior rivalry make the advancement of Byakuya plot driven but there is another element to my guess that Byakuya will be stronger and that is his popularity. One does not have to be a “fanboy” to come to this conclusion.
The follow up you have with it not having a big impact based on Kenpachi not going to the Royal guards also really does not say anything. One does not prove or disprove the other.
Kenpachis training was specifically aimed at him with the exact right person and in the exact right way to make him release the boundaries he himself had set up. Why would he have been with the Royal Guards when Retsu held the key to his advancement?
I don’t know why you still go with derogatory language; there is still no need for it. Debate the points at hand instead of calling people fanboys or claiming they lack basic lingual skills based on replies to what you have written.
Ichigo being punched- counterattack
Renji being punched- no counterattack
Ichigo being punched- no effect at all, only flying a way. A hook to the chin.
Renji being punched- feeling pain, shaky hand, hook to the STOMACH, which, for trained person, one of the hardest parts of the body. It's not ribcage, it's not diaphragm. It's stomach, not very effective punch.
Ichigo was punched with a HEALTHY hand.
Renji was punched with that hand.
So yeah, punch Renji took is NOTHING compared to hit Ichigo took. Also, Kirinji is the fastest Shinigami we know, he didn't use his full power on either of them, so saying he withstood "RG punch" isn't really correct.
Being healthier doesn't mean stronger, but it's a good start, you're right.
Reiatsu incorporation technique can't be very effective, as it'd mean, that you can raise your power level infinitely. Hikifune makes you a dinner, you eat it, she waits for her reiatsu to regenerate, she makes you a dinner. I don't think it's a PERMANENT boost.
And about "talented Shinigami like Byakuya". Byakuya mastered everything he could already. As I said numerous times, he can boost his reiatsu, maybe speed a little, kido, but his zanjutsu is mastered. Renji, on the other hand, can really learn something, as he is talented, young, and his bankai isn't mastered. Damn, he'll have his bankai remodeled, so it'll be something new. Renji, as complete noob in shinigami arts (but talented and strong noob), can train in every aspect. Especially in Kido, as he can't even fire proper Sokatsui... xD
I meant something else, but you could think that way. All I was writing was comparing Byakuya and Kenpachi. Training can be efficient, but for Byakuya it's like pouring water in a full cup. In Kenpachi's case, there's a lot of room to improve. Zanjutsu mainly...Quote:
I wrote "after his training". If he trained with Retsu and was taken to Royal Palace, he'd get both power-ups, wouldn't he? And he'd probably engage in a fist fight with Kirinji, eat everything he could from Hikifune, and jump to zanpakuto creator to shout "WHY THE HELL DOES HIS ZANPAKUTO NOT WORK?!" only to get what he can and kick some RG asses.Quote:
Renji was more injured then Ichigo and I doubt Kirinji would hold back anyway, no one can prove anything, difference of opinion so moving on.
With the Byakuyas cup being full comment, you might be right, who knows really, but I believe it isn't. Everyone seems to evolve and we have nothing to go on regarding anyone being capped. Just because Byakuya has a lot of skill in a lot of areas does not mean he can't improve them all. One does not need to lack talent in one area to become better at it.
Byakuya hasn't even done the highest kido, chances are because he hasn't been able to.
Lastly, I still don't see the point about Kenpachi and the Royal guards. Are you saying he could be even better after training there? Sure, I think most could, pretty much any shinigami that is so strong that he can handle the training but that is not the point of what I am saying. I am saying that when Byakuya has trained with the Royal Guards and when Kenpachi has awakened his zan, maybe even gotten Bankai they could very well be on even ground given the reasons already stated.
If you are talking about potential then I have always held Kenpachi over Byakuya, but that is further down the road, I actually claim he has the most potential only rivaled by my main man Toshiro(among the true shinigami).
Last edited by Sanadan; May 07, 2013 at 12:34 PM.
That's why I said he can improve in everything except Hakuda and Zanjutsu. His Bankai has been trained well and he has his "final" form, that he uses and never had an opponent who lived through his other technique. ANd in case of Hakuda, he doesn't use it. :P Speed, Kido and Reiatsu left.Quote:
Byakuya hasn't even done the highest kido, chances are because he hasn't been able to.
People always joked, that Kenpachi's Bankai will bring doom to Bleachverse, or it'll be nuke or end of the world. Now that it has been possible, people seem to forget how big boost zanjutsu is. Base Kenpachi was pictured as equal to Bankai Byakuya (Yammi fight, shooting reiatsu out of his ass >.<). Given the boost, that Ichigo had with his shikai and bankai, Kenpachi should be really off the charts. If Royal Guard wants to train people so they could protect SS, they should take new captains and vicecaptains, IMO. Shunsui and Kyoraku seem to be at their peak, just like Yamamoto. If Toshiro was taken there then shiiiit. Instead of battle we could have iceskating competition with whole SS frozen. Completing his bankai and training him would make him damn powerful given his talent. That's why I don't really see a point in taking Byakuya. Renji, Toshiro, even Hinamori, Vizard VCs, Ikkaku, Yumichika they all should be sent there. Especially Ikkaku with his broken Bankai.Quote:
I am not talking about martial arts but if you want to talk about it I can send you a link to the MMA forum of which I am a moderator.
Anyho, no you didn't prove that he held back, you need actual proof that he held back in order to prove it. You made an assumption, I don't agree, shinigamis get cut, bruised and hammered over and over and still don't hold back. Imagine if getting injured was the rule of holding back, how lousy wouldn't Kenpachi be in every fight?
Renji stood still, absorbed the force of the punch, Ichigo didn't and as you say he countered it, nothing proves that he held back on Renji though, this is an assumption and you are ofc free to assume.
Your continuation there about Byakuya onle being able to improve Zanjutsu and hakuda is also based on assumptions, nothing says he can't improve on every area, increase the strenght, speed and force of his final form of Bankai, become better at Kido, become more efficient with his zanpakuto. There is just nothing out there that suggests this, in fact the opposite seems to be true:
http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/472/18 - Byakuya stepping out of his comfort zone and still winning
http://www.mangareader.net/94-755-23...apter-301.html - Buyakuya presenting a technique, which could be new, he certainly didn't use it against Ichigo and why not play out the entire repertoire of he could then.
Lastly, I still don't see your point. My point is that the training is efficient, they state that it is so gruesome that they might die, why wouldn't it be efficient? That along with my other posts points to the possibility of him being on equal footing with Kenpachi once their both done.
The Royal Guards already have a job, to protect the Soul King, hence them not helping out Soul Society during their invasion. Nothing about who should or shouldn't be sent there says anything about Byakuya becoming better or not.
Well, even though Kenpachi and Byakuya may be among the strongest shinigami, the discussion started to focus too much on them, in that sense it's going off-topic. Please keep the discussion related to strongest shinigami in general, further posts about Byakuya vs Kenpachi may be deleted.
Physically 'strongest'? In terms of pure Strength.
Unohana - by virtue performance of overpowering Zaraki to death.
Yoruichi and Soi Fon are sort of wild-cards. They're physically strong in their own right.
Overall most powerful, Aizen and Yamamoto. Ichigo would be here as well but he's clearly not a pure shinigami(Technically Aizen isn't anymore either) and hasn't been since the start of the series.
- Right before the Aizen vs. Soul Society war, since Aizen had the hougyoku outside his body a few times, and I don't think he can simply remove it once apllied.
- Towards the end of the war, where the hougyoku starts to truly merge with Aizen, when he fights Isshin, about the time Urahara appears.
Before that, Aizen stopped Ichigo's sword with his hand while he was exhausted after fighting Byakuya, remember Ichigo could barely stand after he won, technically speaking, Byakuya could have finished off Ichigo with Kiddo at that point, since he was strong enough to flash step, and Ichigo could barely stand, but he didn't. Ichigo was on the verge of collapsing, and a few moments after he attempths to fight Aizen, who blocks his sword with his hand.
It made Aizen appear godlike, but he wasn't that much stronger than Yama-Jii and others in terms of reatsu, hand to hand combat etc.
It was Aizens zanpaktou that was insane and that made him much more dangerous.
So take away Aizen's Zanpaktou, then any top tier shinigami without their zanpaktou's would have a chance against him, imo.
Also the time he made Grimjow kneel from reatsu preasure, could have been an illusion made from his shikai, technically he could scare the sh*t out of people doing that, and it wouldn't seem too much off his character to enjoy that.
Thing is, although I agree about the base stats (kind of - at least, I disagree with the level of hype surrounding them), Aizen's zanpakuto IS his strength (and part of his skill set). It is NOT an extra object (so to speak). It would be like removing Sasuke's sharingan, or Kimmimaru's special genes...
Too many people, in my mind, suffer the false notion that zanpakuto abilities are, somehow, separate from the shinigami.
You can not remove his zanpakuto, in the same way you can not remove ryuujinjakka... otherwise cc specialists like Soifon, or Kido users like Hacchigen, would be the undisputedly strongest characters in this manga.
Last edited by zimbardo; May 10, 2013 at 04:29 AM.
Yup, definitely the second option. Gin himself noted that he didn't know Aizen even put the Hougyoku in his chest.Quote:
I agree about Yamamoto, but the others? He's much stronger than them. Evidence by the manga. Aizen's Zanpakutou is sort of a supplement to his very own base stats. Which was quite high alreasy. He gained no insane boost in speed, physical strength, reiatsu, hakuda skill, shunpo or nothing. Kanzen Saimin manipulates the senses.Quote:
Like others have said already, it's not that simple.Quote:
I think now it should be this:
1. Ichigo (new Form ftw)
2. Kenpachi(Bankai ftw)
3. Grimmjow(oldest Espada xD,think became Vasto Lord and now he is the strongest Arrancar)
4. Byakuya (something Special)
5. Renji (something Special)