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I've already pointed to longer range options. And I've already pointed out that Shika's shadows are easy enough to avoid, and the risk to his own body while he keeps an opponent bound. And Kiba's Piercing Fang is avoidable, and probably far less fatal than one of Sakura's blows, even Hinata's attack could cause as much trouble for an opponent.Quote:
Kakuzu isn't the greatest fountain of intellect, this is the same guy brought down by Naruto in what can only be considered a bit of a joke. I still don't get that to be honest. I'm not attacking Shika's intellect, the reality is that he has only caught individuals under certain circumstances. He relies on surprise attacks, traps, and the opponent's ignorance of his abilities; the girls are beyond any of those. He can't surprise the girls with his shadow bind, and they are intimately aware of his abilities, and possibly his plans.Quote:
Are you actually using Kisame as a measure of an attack's effectiveness against these three. Even Kisame at 30% was a monster. You absolutely know better than this. I'm not saying the attack is a one-shot, but it's going to have an effect.Quote:
I get you, but its speed isn't as much as a factor if the opponent isn't expecting it. Once again, I point to Obito.Quote:
Just because they can track them doesn't mean they're going to catch them. Flying isn't going to be that helpful, we're in a very dense forest here. And Ino isn't that heavy, it wouldn't be much of a factor in Sakura's flight. If they have sufficient distance, they're good. And as I've already pointed out, this attack is hidden. The guys have no clue as to when Ino utilises her technique. Add that to the fact that the girls are capable of setting traps of their own, I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to escape.Quote:
Tobi attached to the Jubi is just 10x better, are you just putting that as a complete hypothetical or do you believe that 10x is actually an accurate representation. At the moment, Tobi is kind of a monster. And 10 seconds is a long time for Ino to do some damage with little cost to herself. Seeing as the boys would be unaware of it, she could take one of them out in a surprise attack and be back in her own body in 5 seconds, depending on who she gets a hold of. And Part 1 Sakura had Inner Sakura, which is completely out of any calculation, mainly because it was a bit ridiculous. We've seen the effects of mind techniques on ninja without massive power or weird, strangely comedic, inner minds.Quote:
Hinata could see chakra signals trough a dust type enviroment (probably as Pein could not). Now the dead branches and what not that are covered by leaves are not going to be visible.Quote:
Yeah its not like Shika has clear feats with those shadows making them hard as hell to dodge... Nop Kakuzu is a bloody moron. Complete imbecile.Quote:
2 ranged moves that are:
1-to close and does crep damage.
2-no way to be used
So em now he is not smart because Naruto tricked him with some clones... I gues you had no idea that NOBODY can tell clones apart. Kakuzu is one of the smartest caracters in this manga. Don't even try to argue around this. But let's do this diferently. Post me the tactics feats from the girls that would put them on Kakuzu's small finger.Quote:
Yeah he can't surpise the girls. Its not like he has a long list of caracters where he was able to do that.
He does not need tricks. He just need range and that is good enough:
Asuming they get anywhere in his range he would create shadow and bind them. They are not Raikage to outspeed his shadow or anything. You get in his range and you get bound.
He needs tricks to get people in the range of his SHADOW.
Do you have better feats? Show me it hitting anybody that is somebody and the damage done.Quote:
Em they know what she can do? They can TRACK her? They have better TACTICS? etc etc...Quote:
You know what i find funny. You are holding the idea that shadow bind is so easy to dodge and what not but this move from Ino that is ACTUALY EASY to dodge you keep bringing it up.
Considering the fact that its a forest and then need to move trough trees and flying is expecialy helping the chase here...Quote:
So you think the guys are SLOWER? Sakura showed busting power in the form of hits not stg. That is Tsunade's thing. Power punches don't have raw stg. Its chakra chaneled trough the fists. Seriously there is no way in hell Sakura with Ino in her arms is going to outrun this guys+ink monsters+a bloody hound(well dog).
Not even going in the hole running away from the fight = forfeiting the fight.
The guys have no clue when she is going to use it? So its not like:
1-She needs line of sight.
2-She needs handseals.
3-They have someone who can track her.
4-They have tactics way above anything Sakura's team can trow at them.
They can send ink monsters up in front to tag her before engaging themselfs. Hell use Sai's ink clone up in front and make her waste that move on that...
Tobi was attacked to the Juubi to enforce the control granted to them trough the power of the Rinnegan. If anything they where taxed more then under normal circumstances as they where also controling the biju. They where not sucking on its power. Madara himself stated why they "attacked" themselfs with Hashirama's stuff. To enfoce the control.Quote:
That was Tobi busting out not Tobi + Juubi.
The boys would be more then aware as you need to be blind and a complete morons to not see the handseals and Ino's body DROPING ON THE FLOOR. That is 1 from their own team down as they go for Ino that is also down.
Imagine her using that move and then Kiba using that rotating move on her body (that would be on the floor) yeah Sakura could jump in front to protect but his twisting move would go right trough Sakura and Ino behind it.
Now you are refusing even Sakura's feat because of the inner mind stuff? Wow... Just wow... I am seriously lost for words here. She busted out after she was motivated by Naruto's words and her willpower. Have to remember the next time its part 1 Sakura vs Itachi to make the claim that her Sakura inside Sakura is going to bust her out of Tsukiyomi.
Last edited by xXan; April 30, 2013 at 09:22 AM.
How about this, I'll post you feats that show the girls can keep up with Kakuzu's intelligence as a group, if you post feats that show how he is one of the 'smartest characters in the manga'.Quote:
Were any of these people teammates with intimate knowledge of his abilities, or someone with the Byakugan?Quote:
I'm pretty sure Raikage speed isn't necessary to dodge Shikamaru's shadow, not even close. You know better than that.Quote:
I never tried to qualify the strength of the technique, it was you that suggested it was weak because of its effect on Kisame, who is an absolute beast. I just pointed out that his resistance and strength, even at 30%, far exceeds Shika, Kiba, or Sai's.Quote:
Because the shadow bind's range isn't the same as Ino's mind jutsu, and he doesn't have a Hyuuga to guide his technique with complete precision. And this talk about better tactics means what, what are the tactics?Quote:
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.Quote:
I don't think the guys are slower. I'm just pointing out that if there is a significant distance between the two, the girls should be able to escape for long enough for Ino's mind to return to her body. And I wasn't referencing Sakura's overly monstrous strength, she's a kunoichi that specialises in melee combat. She should be able to lift a girl without it having much effect on her speed. Add that to the fact that they're unaware of the moment that Ino utilises her technique, and the guys would have little reason to attack right after Ino missed, should she miss. And the girls are capable of putting up traps to slow down the guys should it be deemed necessary.Quote:
I've no clue where this came from.Quote:
Not sure what any of these have to do with anything. Does a halo appear over someone who uses handseals? Does knowing someone's location have something to do with knowing exactly what they're doing? And what does tactics have to do with knowing whether or not Ino has just utilised her technique. Shika is intelligent, not omniscient.Quote:
Because Hinata is definitely not going to see those coming from miles away. Using your idea, Ino takes over an animal and attacks them using explosive tags. Unless they're intending to avoid every living thing, they're going to find it difficult to steer clear of these.Quote:
These paragraphs are all over the place. I'm not denying either Sakura's or Tobi's escape from Ino's jutsu, I'm just pointing out that they're very different from Shika, Sai, or Kiba. I said Tobi is a freak of nature, and Sakura expelled Ino using Inner Sakura. These are facts. Not sure how Tsukuyomi comes into play. Those two breaking out, doesn't mean anything for this team.Quote:
In the middle of those paragraphs seems to be something about Ino's technique. I'm not sure what it is exactly you're talking about, but the whole point of Ino's attack is to attack from distance, far out of the boys' range, so the risk is reduced.
@Impossibility- You are neglecting that Shikamaru can transfer his chakra into Asuma's chakra knives giving him what is essentially throwable shadows. This allows him to pin an opponent without being tied to them and remain mobile. With shadow sewing he can control and trap multiple targets while also throwing the knives with the shadows. Shadow sewing also allows him to outright kill an opponent by piercing their vital organs. He has proven the ability to get the shadow bind on anyone he wants.
He is really the perfect leader and teammate in a team setting. His intelligence is unrivaled and his jutsu sets up everyone for the kill.
This would be a cakewalk for just Shikamaru and Sai. You wouldn't even need Kiba.
Oh and Kakuzu has been praised for his intelligence. This is someone who lived for over 90 years, survived against Hashirama, and should have killed Kakashi. He has seen it all. Most ninja are mere children compared to him. He died due to plot induced stupidity once the main character showed up.
Last edited by Jessie; May 01, 2013 at 12:09 AM.
It can but that does not mean its an activate ability and Hinata is going to look trough every leave and trough every tree branch on the ground.Quote:
Also this is the best feat I can find:
Considering its what? 5cm deep (trouch his costume and flesh) its not that helpful.
Now Kiba can detect that just by smelling casually, he does not need to turn every stone.
Neji can't see trough a this:
He has to assume he is ok.
Then its that rock barrier:
Neji could not see outside. So in essence anything shielded with chakra and they can't see trough. Ink clones are just that. Place some in front and they can't see trough. Also even when they showed the ability to see trough stuff and its not impressive. Well at least what I can remember.
Wow just wow...You stating this about Kakuzu... Just meh... You know what I find funny? Is that you don't want to be bothered to look for any links to support your claims. I don't remember 1 link that you posted. How about you do some work for a change and provide evidence.Quote:
Coming from Shikamaru.
Tricking Shika and getting out:
More evidence of his brainpower:
Considering his age, his battle experience and analytical mind I find it absurd how you can ask this.
Sakura for instance is also smart but she is book smart. Kakauzu is battle hardened.
Again it does not matter if they know he is there or that he is coming. Kakuzu was aware of his abilities and same Immortal boy. That did not stop Shika from grabing them. Hell he grabed the sound 4 EASY after he got blasted back. ALL of them AT THE SAME TIME. Part 1 to.Quote:
Nice way of dancing around the subject and avoiding providing anything with substance. Yes you don't need Raikage speed but this girls need melee range and they are not fast in any shape or fashion.Quote:
Considering it did 0 damage let's multiply that but 100000000 and see how much we get (yes I am sarcastic). This move to the point it actually has feats is not relevant. I bet Hinata's team can also trow rocks.Quote:
It does not need to be. The boys are not going to sit still so she can grab them.Quote:
Also what are tactics? The crap that win fights and wars. I can't even believe how much you are trying to ignore this. Better tactics is what got Hidan "killed". Better tactics is what got that golden dude(kyuubi mode) sealed in that pot and his bro in that other sealing thing. Better tactics is what got Neji beat(Naruto, yes leaving a clone behind is that). Hell I can provide a lot of fights and how tactics won them.
To fly above the forest is faster then jumping trough trees.
Yeah its not like they have better tactics, summons, clones, birds and so on. There is no way they will get the drop on them. Range or not.Quote:
It does as allowing 1 team the ability to keep running forcing a draw is wrong. Going by this logic I can propose the argument that the boys would just run the other direction the moment this fight starts (or fly away) and the girls can't win, its a draw.Quote:
Ino does not have infinite bloody range and she can't do it trough trees. In a forest she would need to move in close to them. Well close enough. At that point its going to become obvious what is happening. Hinata helping her deduce where they are an where she need to aim is not going to do much.Quote:
So what they will see it coming? Move the clone (ink clone) and monsters in front and follow after. Taking monsters with bombs is also not going to work. She can keep that jutsu going for minutes and she is wasting chakra...Quote:
Yeah Ino expelled because inner Sakura magic.. Oh please. Let's put this differently SHOW ME where Ino captured someone and how long it lasted and so on.I keep providing links and evidence and you keep dismissing them like that inner Ino crep. Even the wiki states about WILL POWER from Sakura:Quote:
That inner Ino is just BS. If you will is strong enough you just push them out.
The speed of the jusu is SLOW, the tech is close to medium range(same range as Shikamaru's first shadow tech so who cares), the tech is C ranked... I bet you don't even know that damage done to the one Ino ends up possessing is reflected on her eh? So assuming she would posses X and that guy get's any damage she also get's it. Just punch (let's say) Kiba out and she also goes down. What if she hits a clone? The dog transformed in Kiba? etc....Quote:
Hell read more on it on the databook:
So let's assume she used that on X guy from range(she can't exactly but meh). What then? If that guy is injured she also get's the damage.
Seriously you are just arguing for arguing sake. Do you see all the people coming here and giving the boys the win? Even stating all 3 of them are not needed?
Seriously NOBODY gives the girls any shoot at this. Seriously if you want to believe so hard this fight is balanced be my gues, nobody else apparently is. I am done here. I seriously see no reason why I should keep going around this. Its obvious Shika's team win and win hard.
Last edited by xXan; May 01, 2013 at 04:23 AM.
I don't post links unless I have the time or energy, or they're specific, unquestionable support of my point or they're something more obscure that someone is likely going to need to refer to. For example, your links show Shika saying Kakuzu is pretty smart, Kakuzu escaping from Shika, and Kakuzu saying that Hidan is an idiot. None of these things show intelligence far beyond what would be expected from a decent ninja. I could point out moments of Sakura's intelligence; her props from Chiyo from her ability to read Sasori's attack patterns or her analysis of Tobi , but you're just going to disagree and it is pretty much subjective. This is just going to branch off into some other debate that isn't the primary focus of this thread. Just like this debate about Kakuzu isn't particularly relevant. I just rather keep things focused.Quote:
He utilised a trap that Hidan and Kakuzu were unprepared for using his teammates, and he utilised abilities that they were unaware of. It is exactly as I've said before.Quote:
Not providing anything with substance? You made the ridiculous suggestion that Raikage-level speed would be necessary to avoid Shika's shadow bind, I didn't dance around it. I just said it was obviously not the case. If his jutsu was that fast he wouldn't need traps to effectively capture opponents.Quote:
Zero damage, it didn't do zero damage. It pushed Kisame back some distance.Quote:
I'm not questioning the value of tactics, I'm questioning what tactics you expect Shika utilise to win this. Just saying that Shikamaru is significantly more intelligent than the girls doesn't give him the win. If that was the case, we could pretty much wrap up most of the discussions in the arena in a page.Quote:
Why not? Simply knowing the location of your opponent doesn't mean you're prepared to handle their attack. Just because Kiba is aware that they're within a mile in a particular direction doesn't mean that the girls can't surprise them with their attacks. I just find it a bit strange that you're flat-out denying any possibility that the girls could catch the guys unawares, while simultaneously suggesting the girls would be easily caught up in some trap or attack.Quote:
Both teams are committed to killing each other. Using hit and run tactics in a survival match is completely reasonable.Quote:
Never said her range was infinite. Just pointing out that Tobi and Madara were completely unaware of the attack and their presence and at the time of the attack Ino wasn't anywhere close to the Juubi. Using that basis, I'm suggesting that Ino's range of attack is quite impressive, and without a doubt far greater than Shikamaru's.Quote:
Because seeing the clones coming en masse isn't going to raise some suspicions. And Ino is capable of utilising it for some time on animals, we've seen that. And if she's wasting chakra, Sai attempting to populate the forest with his drawings is a waste of chakra.Quote:
I've no clue what Inner Ino is. And if you wish to refer to the wiki, feel free to take a look at Sakura's page where it references inner Sakura. The boys might be able to break the mind jutsu, but they just won't be able to do it quickly enough. This technique operates in a very similar manner as the shadow bind.Quote:
I'm very aware of the risks to Ino with her tech. She takes out one of the guys and releases, simple. Are the boys just wasting chakra on clones, and if my memory serves me correct only one of them is capable of using clones, and how did Akamaru get involved in this?Quote:
Arguing for arguing sake? That sounds oddly familiar. Feel free to stop at any moment.Quote:
And this just wouldn't work. Kiba is an absolute necessity for this team to track the girls. Otherwise Shika and Sai are operating blind, while the girls can watch their every step.Quote:
I don't see how Ino, Hinata or Sakura would be able to stand a chance. All three of them are extremely weak long-distance fighters and since Sai is in the opposite team, I think they would have a hard time even closing in given how limited their jutsu abilities are. Neither of them excel in speed so it would be hard for them to dodge Sai's attacks whilst closing in. Even if they were to close in, I'm pretty sure that Kiba would be able to beat either of the three. You've also got Shikamaru who's an excellent tactician and I'm sure he wouldn't have much trouble with luring them into a trap, given that they know everything they need to know about Hinata, Sakura and Ino. Under these circumstances, I don't think it would be that hard for Shikamaru's team to use Team Hinata's over-reliance on the Byakugan against them. For instance, what if Sai were to create Ink Clones of all 4 (including Akamaru) and the real ones use some Hengen technique to disguise themselves as birds. Do you think Hinata would be able to see through that? She wouldn't be able to tell if the real ones went into Hengen or if it was the clones. In such a fantasy world, it's not that hard to fool someone who relies solely on sight.
Also, Hinata, Sakura and Ino are physically very weak and neither of them have a monstrous chakra. They wouldn't be able to break out of Shikamaru's Shadow techniques and it's no longer even a question of Shikamaru simply immobilizing them, he'd be able to kill them.
It seems to me that a lot of the focus has been on Team Shikamaru approaching Team Hinata in a fight. Surely, it would be the other way around? Kiba would be able to determine their positions from his nose and then Sai could simply ambush them with his ink techniques until they decide to come out. Can Hinata even 'see' Sai's techniques via the Byakugan?
Sakura, Hinata and Sai vs Ino, Kiba and Shikamaru would be a more fair fight in my opinion. Perhaps even Sakura, Hinata and Shino vs. Sai, Kiba and Shikamaru.
Last edited by Azuma; May 01, 2013 at 06:07 AM.
Sakura is probably physical stronger than any of the three guys, just to put it out there. And I don't think anyone here has particularly monstrous chakra.Quote:
Those would be interesting. Although, I think those fights might favour Sakura's team a bit much.Quote:
I don't think it's been confirmed that Byakugan can distinguish between "Chakra-type" kage bunshin (i.e. thunder/wood/ink etc) and normal kage bunshins. As far as I know, a real difference between the two has not been discussed. Also, why wouldn't Akamaru be in this battle? He's seen as a mere 'ninja tool' similar to kunais.
Regardless, Hinata cannot keep her Byakugan activated. As recent as the war, we saw Neji almost collapse because of a prolonged usage of the Byakugan and Hinata shouldn't even be able to have hers activated for as long as Neji. Furthermore, her vision doesn't extend far enough to include the whole forest so there are a few ways for Shikamaru's team to come up with plans/traps where Hinata can't even see them.
On the other hand, it wouldn't be too difficult to fool Kiba's nose for a short amount of time. If Team Hinata were to leave some of their clothes in different places/animals, Kiba would end up not being able to pinpoint their location but taking into account their limited jutsus, they wouldn't really be able to use that very effectively as a means to attack, only to escape. And even then, Sai is a pretty damn good scout as well so Team Shikamaru wouldn't be as vulnerable as Team Hinata.
I doubt Sakura's physically stronger than Kiba, at the very least. Yes, neither of them have monstrous chakra, but my point was that without overwhelming chakra/ physical strength (relative to Shikamaru's state) it is impossible to resist the Shadow techniques quickly and unless they can do that, them being caught = them losing.
I don't see how Team Hinata would be able to win this, really. Sakura isn't anywhere near Temari's level of analytical abilites and by extension, shouldn't be able to see through any of Shikamaru's plans. In the Chuunin Exam, for example, she was caught and with a kunai in her hand, the best thing she could come up with was to cut her hair. Ino and Hinata are most likely around her level.
Last edited by Azuma; May 01, 2013 at 07:05 AM.
Hinata's Byakugan can see for miles, she doesn't have to keep it active constantly. She uses it to take a look, and keeps track, and then deactivates it. And she keeps it active near areas that the boys have been to. How long she can keep it up isn't certain, but Neji became exhausted after extensive use.Quote:
I'd say Ino would be an even more effective scout. Sai can be tracked by Hinata, Ino within a random animal cannot.Quote:
I think you might be underestimating Sakura, she's shown that she has some decent analytical skills in the face of Sasori and Tobi. And with Hinata's insight it should only improve.Quote:
Ino wouldn't be a better scout in my opinion. Since she can only use her mind transfer technique on one animal, she can only monitor one area at a time. Sai, on the other hand, can cover a much bigger radius, similar to Shino. He did that, for example, when they were trying to find Sasuke (summoned a bunch of rats that ran around).
As for Sakura's analytical abilites against Sasori, it wasn't that much different from what Naruto did against Neji. But that doesn't mean that she has the insight to be able to see through plans.
Still, I don't think Team Hinata would win. Sooner or later, they would end up in a 3vs3 battle, and I don't think they would stand a chance. Ino is practically useless as long as you know about her abilites. Sakura is a one-pattern fighter and I don't think it would be too hard to defeat her. Kiba might be able to pull it off by himself, but if not, Sai surely can.
Well yeah. What i mean by that is that people get in here. State that they see no way for the girls to stand a chanse and they you try to contradict it. You made a topic where you hoped its balanced but then everybody pointed out diferently and then you feelt the need to defened it.Quote:
I mena look at this. Everybody states they see no way for the girls to win and then you contradict them. Just let it slide already.
Also yes going to stop now as this is a clear win for the boys as everybody pointed out.
Team 2 wins this - I don't doubt that team 1 is very capable, and good at dealing with traps and scouting and the like, but they don't have the power needed to follow through with it. Knowing precisely where team 1 is won't help when they find them and realise that Sakura is a capable melee fighter, but Ino really, really isn't and Hintata is primarily defensive. Kiba with his Fang over fang has serious raw power, Sai was an Anbu, and with Shikamaru coordinating them team 1 just can't match them. Ino's basically fodder when it actually comes to the fight, as she has to hit people with her mind techniques and with Kiba flying around the second she leaves her body she'll get KO'd. Sakura, with her medical ninjutsu and strength, is powerful, but Sai's ink and skills should allow him to hold her off, if not beat her. And Hinata is powerless to stop Shika just shadowing her, especially in a forest where the shadows are even more pronounced. Sai at worst holds off Sakura until Hinata and Ino are KO'd (which won't take long) then they join together to crush her.