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Thread: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

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    Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    After reading the latest chapter, it seemed to me like Isshin acted like a complete dumbass by trusting Urahara so quickly, given the events that lead up to that point.

    Let's look at what has happened so far in this flashback:

    - A strange Hollow appears in the Human World and Isshin goes there to battle it.
    - Isshin notices that the Hollow seems rather Shinigami-like.
    - Isshin is struck by a blow and is confident about it being from a Shinigami.
    - Masaki is bitten by this 'Hollow' and undergoes hollowfication.

    After Urahara revealed his name, it was evident that Isshin had heard of him. Based on the information we know so far, I'd say it was because of the events during the TBTP arc. Now, if that were true, then he should have known that Urahara was suspected of having carried out hollowfication experiments.

    It seems very strange to me that Isshin didn't even consider the fact that Urahara was the one that attacked him and that the Hollow which appeared was a result of Urahara's experiments. It would certainly be the most logical conclusion based on what he should be aware of. Yet, as I stated above, Isshin completely trusts Urahara. This is even more strange given how sharp Isshin seemed to be during his fight against White.

    Has Kubo been inconsistent with how sharp Isshin is? Or was Isshin actually reacting to something other than TBTP when he heard Urahara's name? That could perhaps explain why Kubo had Ryuuken interrupt them immediately afterwards, although that part can certainly be explained given Masaki's condition.

    PS: Please don't try to explain the above by referring to how stupid and goofy Isshin has been at times with Ichigo. It is, quite honestly, irrelevant.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member exacta's Avatar
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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Not to try and annoy you or anything, but how stupid and goofy Isshin is with Ichigo is relevant, because it IS part of his nature. He has moments of being smart and has shown signs of being a level-headed individual, but he's always a goof. That's why he's able to make tough decisions like this easily. That being said, it was kind of a dire situation. They had to react fast after all, no time to ask Urahara about what really went down with Soul Society.

    But its absolutely consistent with his character. Isshin had no problem with Masaki being a Quincy, is it really strange he has no problem with Urahara being an SS exile? It seems Isshin may not agree with the way Soul Society handles and views things. It's clear he doesn't mistrust an individual just because Soul Society does ( which is probably the correct thing to do, SS trusts Aizen and look how that turns out).

    Also, what would Urahara have to gain anyway? If he wanted Masaki to hollowify, well....that's already happening.......he has nothing to gain from helping them really. And it is pretty obvious he knows what he is talking about.....I mean if Isshin thinks Urahara is who he says he is, then that pretty much vouches for his knowledge on Hollowification.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    After reading the latest chapter, it seemed to me like Isshin acted like a complete dumbass by trusting Urahara so quickly, given the events that lead up to that point.

    Let's look at what has happened so far in this flashback:

    - A strange Hollow appears in the Human World and Isshin goes there to battle it.
    - Isshin notices that the Hollow seems rather Shinigami-like.
    - Isshin is struck by a blow and is confident about it being from a Shinigami.
    - Masaki is bitten by this 'Hollow' and undergoes hollowfication.

    After Urahara revealed his name, it was evident that Isshin had heard of him. Based on the information we know so far, I'd say it was because of the events during the TBTP arc. Now, if that were true, then he should have known that Urahara was suspected of having carried out hollowfication experiments.

    It seems very strange to me that Isshin didn't even consider the fact that Urahara was the one that attacked him and that the Hollow which appeared was a result of Urahara's experiments. It would certainly be the most logical conclusion based on what he should be aware of. Yet, as I stated above, Isshin completely trusts Urahara. This is even more strange given how sharp Isshin seemed to be during his fight against White.

    Has Kubo been inconsistent with how sharp Isshin is? Or was Isshin actually reacting to something other than TBTP when he heard Urahara's name? That could perhaps explain why Kubo had Ryuuken interrupt them immediately afterwards, although that part can certainly be explained given Masaki's condition.

    PS: Please don't try to explain the above by referring to how stupid and goofy Isshin has been at times with Ichigo. It is, quite honestly, irrelevant.
    Isshin said that there is no way SS would know about the Hollow unless there was a traitor in their midst. Urahara was not in SS anymore so he couldn't have been the traiterous Shinigami behind the Hollow. Plus there wasn't any time for doubts. Masaki was going to blow up any minute. It was a now or never scenario so Isshin didn't have time to do anything else.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Not to try and annoy you or anything, but how stupid and goofy Isshin is with Ichigo is relevant, because it IS part of his nature. He has moments of being smart and has shown signs of being a level-headed individual, but he's always a goof. That's why he's able to make tough decisions like this easily. That being said, it was kind of a dire situation. They had to react fast after all, no time to ask Urahara about what really went down with Soul Society.
    Actually, it IS irrelevant, because he always pretended to be someone else, hiding his Shinigami nature. After Aizen arc, throughout FB arc, til now, he hasn't acted goofy at all, as there was no need.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Plot.
    This is a flashback so it had to happen that way. Isshin wasn't driven by thoughts, his nature or anything. It was the plot.
    Flashbacks in long-running shonen tend to have that.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by exacta View Post
    Not to try and annoy you or anything, but how stupid and goofy Isshin is with Ichigo is relevant, because it IS part of his nature. He has moments of being smart and has shown signs of being a level-headed individual, but he's always a goof. That's why he's able to make tough decisions like this easily. That being said, it was kind of a dire situation. They had to react fast after all, no time to ask Urahara about what really went down with Soul Society.

    But its absolutely consistent with his character. Isshin had no problem with Masaki being a Quincy, is it really strange he has no problem with Urahara being an SS exile? It seems Isshin may not agree with the way Soul Society handles and views things. It's clear he doesn't mistrust an individual just because Soul Society does ( which is probably the correct thing to do, SS trusts Aizen and look how that turns out).

    Also, what would Urahara have to gain anyway? If he wanted Masaki to hollowify, well....that's already happening.......he has nothing to gain from helping them really. And it is pretty obvious he knows what he is talking about.....I mean if Isshin thinks Urahara is who he says he is, then that pretty much vouches for his knowledge on Hollowification.
    His goofy personality is irrelevant. He doesn't switch from stupid to sharp just because of his personality. Moreover, this isn't simply about Urahara being exiled from SS, but the reason for his exile and the obvious hollowfication connection between the two. I find it extremely strange that there's no suspicion that he's walking into a trap set by Urahara.

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    Isshin said that there is no way SS would know about the Hollow unless there was a traitor in their midst. Urahara was not in SS anymore so he couldn't have been the traiterous Shinigami behind the Hollow. Plus there wasn't any time for doubts. Masaki was going to blow up any minute. It was a now or never scenario so Isshin didn't have time to do anything else.
    There wasn't any time according to Urahara. Even if the traitor had to have been in SS, he should've at least suspected the possibility of an accomplice.

    My point is that it's very odd that Isshin trusts Urahara completely after spending 5 minutes with him, given his background, the reasons for his exile from SS and the similarities between the two cases. He doesn't even seem to consider any foul play whatsoever, which is strange given how sharp he was at the beginning.

    You're both arguing that 'Masaki didn't have much time left, he had to act fast' but he found this out through Urahara. I's not really a valid argument that explains why he was quick to trust Urahara. At that point, he already trusted Urahara and that's why he believed that they didn't have much time.
    Last edited by Azuma; April 27, 2013 at 09:01 AM.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Yoruichi is Kukaku Shiba's friend, perhaps this is how Isshin knows Urahara is trustworthy.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    His goofy personality is irrelevant. He doesn't switch from stupid to sharp just because of his personality. Moreover, this isn't simply about Urahara being exiled from SS, but the reason for his exile and the obvious hollowfication connection between the two. I find it extremely strange that there's no suspicion that he's walking into a trap set by Urahara.

    There wasn't any time according to Urahara. Even if the traitor had to have been in SS, he should've at least suspected the possibility of an accomplice.

    My point is that it's very odd that Isshin trusts Urahara completely after spending 5 minutes with him, given his background, the reasons for his exile from SS and the similarities between the two cases. He doesn't even seem to consider any foul play whatsoever, which is strange given how sharp he was at the beginning.

    You're both arguing that 'Masaki didn't have much time left, he had to act fast' but he found this out through Urahara. I's not really a valid argument that explains why he was quick to trust Urahara. At that point, he already trusted Urahara and that's why he believed that they didn't have much time.
    It's not really that he trusted Urahara but rather he didn't know what else to do. Nobody knows about Hollowfication other than Urahara and Aizen. In TBTP even Tessai didn't know what it was.

    Masaki was hollwfying and Isshin couldn't stand seeing her end up like this after she tried to save him. Urahara was giving him a solution, maybe not a 100% reliable solution but a solution nonetheless. I mean suppose he doubted Urahara then what? Was Isshin supposed to rush Masaki to SS and get her treated there? I'm sure Central 46 would want a Hollowfied Quincy executed especially since Isshin hid her from them last time. Isshin didn't have a choice. During a situation like that he had to give Urahara the benefit of doubt.

    Obviously Isshin wouldn't be very skeptical of Urahara because that's how he is. Isshin isn't like Byakuya. He doesn't adhere all the laws nor does he value everything Central 46 says. All he knows is that a complete innocent guy was condemned by the 'just' Central 46 for carrying out Hollowfication experiments. Knowing Central 46 they probably didn't even give Urahara a chance to defend themselves. Isshin would never take their word seriously.

    Besides the Gotei 13 is full of criminals (Yama, Unohana, Mayuri, Kenpachi etc) so I don't think it would be a tough decision for Isshin to trust another.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    It's not really that he trusted Urahara but rather he didn't know what else to do. Nobody knows about Hollowfication other than Urahara and Aizen. In TBTP even Tessai didn't know what it was.

    Masaki was hollwfying and Isshin couldn't stand seeing her end up like this after she tried to save him. Urahara was giving him a solution, maybe not a 100% reliable solution but a solution nonetheless. I mean suppose he doubted Urahara then what? Was Isshin supposed to rush Masaki to SS and get her treated there? I'm sure Central 46 would want a Hollowfied Quincy executed especially since Isshin hid her from them last time. Isshin didn't have a choice. During a situation like that he had to give Urahara the benefit of doubt.

    Obviously Isshin wouldn't be very skeptical of Urahara because that's how he is. Isshin isn't like Byakuya. He doesn't adhere all the laws nor does he value everything Central 46 says. All he knows is that a complete innocent guy was condemned by the 'just' Central 46 for carrying out Hollowfication experiments. Knowing Central 46 they probably didn't even give Urahara a chance to defend themselves. Isshin would never take their word seriously.

    Besides the Gotei 13 is full of criminals (Yama, Unohana, Mayuri, Kenpachi etc) so I don't think it would be a tough decision for Isshin to trust another.
    Wrong. Central 46 (and thus, most likely the captains as well) know about hollowfication after the TBTP events. http://mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v37/c316.3/7.html

    As for the thread itself, I suggest we just stop discussing it. You're clearly missing my points.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Wrong. Central 46 (and thus, most likely the captains as well) know about hollowfication after the TBTP events. http://mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v37/c316.3/7.html

    As for the thread itself, I suggest we just stop discussing it. You're clearly missing my points.
    I meant as in fully understanding it. I mean since even Aizen was experimenting with Hollowfication, it implies that even he didn't fully udnerstand the process. I doubt Central 46 or anyone else in SS knew that much about Hollowfication if Aizen didn't. Urahara was the only one who was smarter than Aizen so I don't see who else could have helped Masaki. If Isshin wanted to save her I don't see who else he could have turned to.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Wrong. Central 46 (and thus, most likely the captains as well) know about hollowfication after the TBTP events. http://mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v37/c316.3/7.html

    As for the thread itself, I suggest we just stop discussing it. You're clearly missing my points.
    If you dont want a thread to be discussed, why you even created one then?


    And yes, Isshin have no time to hesitate and Urahara offered help, that is a good reason enough to trust him, plus i actualy belive this one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Miyagi
    oruichi is Kukaku Shiba's friend, perhaps this is how Isshin knows Urahara is trustworthy.
    Is also have something to do with it.
    Isshin was not a dumb here, he acted like a hero.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shader View Post
    If you dont want a thread to be discussed, why you even created one then?
    Because you're simply misunderstanding my points and you are are too hung up on what you know about Urahara. It's getting tiresome to keep repeating myself.

    If it had been the exact same scenario, but with Aizen showing up instead of Urahara and offering his help. Would you feel that Isshin has no choice but to trust Aizen?

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Because you're simply misunderstanding my points and you are are too hung up on what you know about Urahara. It's getting tiresome to keep repeating myself.

    If it had been the exact same scenario, but with Aizen showing up instead of Urahara and offering his help. Would you feel that Isshin has no choice but to trust Aizen?

    In this case, it makes more sense to trust Aizen than it does Urahara.
    Furthermore, Isshin might literally not have a choice because of Kyoka Suigetsu.

    It is odd that Isshin doesn't display any sort of suspicion toward Urahara. I attribute that to either of two reasons:

    1. He has some sort of prior history with Urahara or has heard his name in a context outside of Urahara's exile from SS

    2. There wasn't enough blood running through Isshin's brain to enable him to make proper, thought out decisions.
    Last edited by Exodi; April 29, 2013 at 02:01 PM.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuma View Post
    Because you're simply misunderstanding my points and you are are too hung up on what you know about Urahara. It's getting tiresome to keep repeating myself.

    If it had been the exact same scenario, but with Aizen showing up instead of Urahara and offering his help. Would you feel that Isshin has no choice but to trust Aizen?
    Given the soul suicide phenomeno then yes. Isshin would trust Aizen.

    Isshin doesn't want Masaki to soul suicide. So what if he's not 100% sure. You're never sure of how likely success will be in scenarios like that but you want to avoid failure so you'll take even the slightest chances.

    It's similar to this:

    A criminal, who happens to be your friend in the past, kidnaps your daughter and says he'll kill her if you don't pay the ransom. This is the first time this criminal is commiting a crime so he's not that eager or confident in killing. You know the criminal was your friend in the past but you still pay the ransom. Why? Because you don't want to take any chances. So what if there isn't a 100% guarantee the criminal isn't being honest or that something bad may happen to your daughter? I mean the criminal might chicken out and just release her in the end becaue he doesn't have the guts to keep her imprisoned like that? Regardless you don't want to take any chances so you just go with what seems to be the safest possibility.

    Same thing with Isshin. Urahara told Isshin that Masaki was going to blow up. Isshin hid Masaki from SS previously. Urahara said he could save Masaki. If Isshin went back to SS they would question him and during that time it might be too late to save Masaki. In fact they probably won't even bother saving her judging by TBTP. Urahara said he could Masaki immediately. Honestly I don't see why Isshin wouldn't trust Urahara.

    Only Central 46 ever said he was bad. Before that he was the kind man who went around playing with kids etc. He and Isshin had so much in common already.

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    Re: Has Kubo been inconsistent with Isshin's portrayal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DraMas26 View Post
    Given the soul suicide phenomeno then yes. Isshin would trust Aizen.

    Isshin doesn't want Masaki to soul suicide. So what if he's not 100% sure. You're never sure of how likely success will be in scenarios like that but you want to avoid failure so you'll take even the slightest chances.

    It's similar to this:

    A criminal, who happens to be your friend in the past, kidnaps your daughter and says he'll kill her if you don't pay the ransom. This is the first time this criminal is commiting a crime so he's not that eager or confident in killing. You know the criminal was your friend in the past but you still pay the ransom. Why? Because you don't want to take any chances. So what if there isn't a 100% guarantee the criminal isn't being honest or that something bad may happen to your daughter? I mean the criminal might chicken out and just release her in the end becaue he doesn't have the guts to keep her imprisoned like that? Regardless you don't want to take any chances so you just go with what seems to be the safest possibility.

    Same thing with Isshin. Urahara told Isshin that Masaki was going to blow up. Isshin hid Masaki from SS previously. Urahara said he could save Masaki. If Isshin went back to SS they would question him and during that time it might be too late to save Masaki. In fact they probably won't even bother saving her judging by TBTP. Urahara said he could Masaki immediately. Honestly I don't see why Isshin wouldn't trust Urahara.

    Only Central 46 ever said he was bad. Before that he was the kind man who went around playing with kids etc. He and Isshin had so much in common already.
    Your example doesn't really paint up a similar scenario, not even close. For starters, in your example you're assuming that the daughter is in imminent danger. I've said this many times already and I'll repeat it again; Isshin believing that Masaki is in imminent danger is a result of him believing Urahara, it is NOT one of the reasons that he should believe him. Thus, Isshin shouldn't know for sure whether Masaki is dying or not.

    Let's say that a family member of yours suddenly collapses on the street and complains about his head hurting a lot. A complete stranger shows up and tells you that the only way for you to save his life is by following him.

    Would you trust this person immediately? For all you know, the family member might simply be suffering from migraine, which can be extremely painful, but not necessarily lethal. In order for you to trust that your family member is in danger, you first have to trust the judgement of the person who says it, right? Why else do most people believe more in the advice of trained physicians compared to uneducated people when it comes to health? It is simply because we have more faith in them because of their education. By your arguments, it seems like you would trust the diagnosis of any random person as long as it MIGHT be remotely true.

    It is the exact same thing with Urahara and Isshin. For Isshin to believe that Masaki is indeed undergoing Soul Suicide, he first has to completely trust Urahara. I'm not arguing that Urahara has bad intentions or that Isshin should refuse Urahara's help, but the fact that he doesn't even show any signs of suspicion whatsoever is strange. Especially given the fact that Urahara's affililation with hollowfication has been rumored in SS ever since the TBTP. The only logical conclusion I can come up with would be if Isshin had heard of Urahara outside of the events during TBTP and that's why he'd trust him. Kubo even bothered to have Ryuuken interrupt them just as Urahara revealed his name.

    Ryuuken's actions are much more understandable. He trusts Urahara because he's desperate and feeling completely hopeless, not to mention the fact that he hardly knows what's going on.
    Last edited by Azuma; April 29, 2013 at 03:41 PM.

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